------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain

Loopers-Delight-d Digest                                Volume 96 : Issue 20

Today's Topics:
  Re: Boomerang                         [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ]
  Re: David Torn book proposal          [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ]
  Re: greetings                         [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ]
  How does Schon Sync?                  [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CAL ]
  Mermen recommendations?               [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CAL ]
  Re: David Torn book proposal          [ DAVID_MITCHELL@HP-Australia-om1.om. ]
  Re: greetings                         [ Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuSer ]
  Re: TC elec. sustain pedal            [ Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net> ]
  Re: greetings                         [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ]
  Re: greetings                         [ sean o'donnell <sodonne@vm.temple.e ]
  Re: How does Schon Sync?              [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Mermen recommendations?               [ Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM> ]
  Re: Mermen recommendations?           [ KILLINFO@aol.com ]
  Re: How does Schon Sync?              [ Eric Cook <ecook@conch.aa.msen.com> ]
  phrase sampler                        [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Re: How does Schon Sync?              [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ]
  Text loops?                           [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]

Administrivia:
Looper's Delight
****************

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Your humble list maintainer,

Kim Flint
kflint@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:23:49 -0800
From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Boomerang
Message-Id: <v02140b03aeb56de57604@[207.171.196.52]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>                             Mike informed me that among the features
>being considered for the next incarnation of the Boomerang are an "undo"
>function,

Wow, what a great idea! Wonder where they got it?

sorry, couldn't resist....;-)

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:23:52 -0800
From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, aprasad@pobox.com
Subject: Re: David Torn book proposal
Message-Id: <v02140b04aeb56ec4aa45@[207.171.196.52]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Looper's (and Anil) -

>Anil Prasad posted this on various newsgroups:
>----------------------------------------------
>
>Hi folks,
>
>I've been in touch with David Torn on and off about writing a book about
>and with him. We've officially decided to start a fact-finding mission
>to
>see who may be interested in such a venture.
>

I've talked with David about his book idea before, as well. It's great to
see something happening! This should be a really fascinating project. Its a
great opportunity to get the word about looping out there, from one of our
most preeminent practitioners.

I'm certainly interested. We can use space on the Looper's Delight web site
for publicizing the book and publishing excerpts. We can also include
graphics, audio, and video if you like.

So hey loopers, what else can we do in support of this? I guess one obvious
thing would be to let Anil and David know that there are interested folks
out here. Any other ideas?



>Unfortunately, we have to work within the realm of the publishing
>industry. Neither of us is willing to put up with the hassle
>of self-publishing. So, the reality is this may have to be two books
>-- one containing 1-3 and the other with 4-5. Publishers tend to be
>ridiculously picky about "focus" and may think the "demographic
>appeal" of the book would be too fragmented if everything was
>included in one volume.

Count me in the demographic. David Torn is a very interesting musician and
person, and I'd really enjoy a book like this. I think it would add a lot
to the dialogue on what the art of looping is all about. I'm sure other's
on this list would agree.


>So, the reason for this message? We'd like to find out what YOU think
>about all of this. Any constructive comments are appreciated. As well,
>if you know someone who may be potentially interested in releasing a
>project like this, please get in touch. This is going to be a truly
>organic and grassroots effort.

I'll take a leap of faith and volunteer the Looper's Delight community to
help out if we can. Let us know what we can do to help, Anil.


>Anil Prasad
>aprasad@pobox.com
>

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:46:48 -0800
From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: greetings
Message-Id: <v02140b0caeb596c51123@[207.171.196.46]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 7:26 AM 11/16/96, Pete Gilbert wrote:
>This is another of those first posts from a looper who is very pleased to have
>found this list. Hopefully, I'll be able to add some useful info.
>

Hi Pete, welcome.

You'll find many kindred souls here. Usually we are much more prolific than
the past week or so, I guess everyone talked themselves out and took a
break. Feel free to throw out some fresh ideas, we'd love to hear more of
your experiences.

Actually, a whole bunch of new list subscriptions came in over the past
week. That usually means some good publicity happened somewhere. So I'm a
little curious as to how you new folks found out about us. Was there a post
somewhere?

Don't lurk forever, go ahead and let us know a bit about yourselves and
what your thoughts on looping and music are!

And if you don't know, we have a web site with a growing assortment of goodies:

http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html

The web site is a coummunity effort, really, so feel free to contribute
something if you like.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:59:09 -0800 (PST)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: How does Schon Sync?
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.961117204852.15851A-100000@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Kim Flint wrote:

> Another rocker using loopers is Neal Schon of Journey. 
> He does a couple of things with them live. One is the obvious,
> looping a rhythm part so that he can solo over it. For a band like Journey
> its pretty important to duplicate the recorded versions fairly accurately,
> and the loopers make the overdubbed parts on the album doable live.

OK, here's a question: Does Schon's drummer play to a click, to which the 
Echoplex is also synched?

I ask because it seems to me that getting a perfectly in-sync loop of a 
rhythm guitar part that the drummer (and the rest of the band) can 
reliably play to is an extremely dubious proposition.

Playing a rhythmic, strictly in-time loop, and triggering the start/stop 
points manually from a footpedal, is a quite demanding task.  Take all of 
the possible rhythmic quirks that could crop up in that process, and then 
compund that with the entire band having to groove to the loop, and what 
have you got?  A potential train wreck.

So I'd be very interested to know if the band does indeed use some sort 
of time code with which to sync the band (and the Plex) together.

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 21:00:30 -0800 (PST)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Mermen recommendations?
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.961117205936.15921A-100000@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Kim Flint wrote:

> >Also, The Mermen.  I haven't listened for it on records, but I've got
> >a DAT of an appearance they did on KFJC with some wonderfully subtle
> >looping.  I was listening away when I realized that there were two
> >guitar parts playing, and it took me a while to realize that one of
> >them was looping (a fiarly long loop).
> >
> >The Mermen's guitarist roolz the effects universe.
> 
> Jim Thomas uses Obie Echoplexes, for those keeping track.

Can anyone recommed a Mermen record, particularly one with a heavy loop 
content?

Thanx in advance,

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 16:38:50 +1100
From: DAVID_MITCHELL@HP-Australia-om1.om.hp.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: David Torn book proposal
Message-Id: <H00000c501e32a4b@MHS>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Re:"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>So, the reason for this message? We'd like to find out what YOU think
>about all of this. Any constructive comments are appreciated. As well,
>if you know someone who may be potentially interested in releasing a
>project like this, please get in touch. This is going to be a truly
>organic and grassroots effort.

Here's a left field suggestion...

An interesting idea that I came across recently is being tested by Que
books.  One of their new titles, "Perl 5 By Example", is released onto
the Web at http://www.mtolive.com/pbe/  Regardless of whether the actual
content is of any interest, it's worth checking out; here's a publishing
company that has decided to release an entire book onto the Web before
releasing it in paper form.

I suppose their thinking is "Let's put it on the web and gauge how many
people are looking at it using web counters.  Based on this, we can
- decide whether future books on this topic have a market
- collect general demographics info (what type of people are looking at
it (e.g. students, professionals, government), where are they
geographically, etc.)
and probably some other things".  This stuff can be accessed by the Web
server pulling down info from everyone's Web client.

The option is there for people to download the entire book, although the
structure makes it difficult.  I have downloaded the book entirely, and
intend to buy it when it comes out as I think it's worth the money.

I know of at least one other book that has been sold this way; Marc
Sabatella's "Jazz Improvisation Primer" was available on the web (and
ftp) for a long time before he sold it to a publishing house.  It's
still out there on the web somewhere.

This "free marketing" approach may be a good solution for David Torn's
book, if there's troubles selling it to the publishing community.

Regards

Dave Mitchell

------------------------------
Date: 18 Nov 96 02:23:28 EST
From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: greetings
Message-ID: <961118072328_100041.247_JHB76-1@CompuServe.COM>

> Actually, a whole bunch of new list subscriptions came in over the past
> week. That usually means some good publicity happened somewhere. So I'm a
> little curious as to how you new folks found out about us. Was there a
> post somewhere?
 
Er, I mentioned Looper's Delight a week ago in a post to Elephant Talk
(which is subscribed by thousands). Don't know if this was it, but it
probably contributed.
 
If you're interested in more subscribers (and more work for you), there are
some (less crowded) newsgroups we could post on such as the Eno, Sylvian,
or Ambient newsgroups. I think by now, this mailing list + website have
grown rich and interesting enough to feel justified to go and boast a little.
 
-Michael
 

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:05:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: TC elec. sustain pedal
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.961118100201.4429A-100000@icarus.icarus.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 15 Nov 1996, Chris Chovit wrote:

> I know this isn't a marketplace, but I remember someone, at some point, was
> interested in a T.C. Electronics Sustain pedal.  I ran across this ad, for
> anyone who is interested...
> 
> TC Electronic Sustain $200, vintage ADA Flanger $150, Boss OD-1 overdrive
> (new in box) $90. All are or best offer. Will trade. Mauricio
> (gobbi@coastal.udel.edu) 302-731-5394/831-6550

I paid $30 for my TC (battered but works well), from a knowledgeable
but honest vintage dealer in Iowa.  For $200, you could probably pick
up a used dbx compressor, Rane parametric, and a Hush pedal and stomp
all over the TC.  It's a terrific compressor but it ain't worth $200
except to collectors (who aren't gonna play it anyway).  

-dave

By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete.
Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. 
Venus De Milo.
To a child she is ugly.       /* dstagner@icarus.net */
   -Charles Fort              

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:57:11 -0800
From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: greetings
Message-Id: <v02140b01aeb6513bcf46@[207.171.196.148]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>> Actually, a whole bunch of new list subscriptions came in over the past
>> week. That usually means some good publicity happened somewhere. So I'm a
>> little curious as to how you new folks found out about us. Was there a
>> post somewhere?
>
>Er, I mentioned Looper's Delight a week ago in a post to Elephant Talk
>(which is subscribed by thousands). Don't know if this was it, but it
>probably contributed.
>

That would explain it. Feel free to do this sort of thing, I don't mind at all.

>If you're interested in more subscribers (and more work for you), there are
>some (less crowded) newsgroups we could post on such as the Eno, Sylvian,
>or Ambient newsgroups. I think by now, this mailing list + website have
>grown rich and interesting enough to feel justified to go and boast a little.

I have been holding off on publicity because I didn't feel the list and web
site were really ready. Now that the digest version is working, the regular
list seems to be running smoothly, and the web site has a reasonable amount
of interesting content, I think more publicity is fine.

If any of you are on other lists that may have members interested in
looping, feel free to let them know about Looper's Delight. I'd be
especially interested in bringing in some folks from the
techno/dub/industrial/ambient world, some dj's, and acoustic musicians of
various sorts. (the Adrian Legg, Leo Kottke variety seem to have an
affinity for loops) We seem to be a bit top heavy with Fripp influenced
guitarists so far, which is ok, but more variety is good in my opinion.

thanks,

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:09:10 -0800
From: sean o'donnell <sodonne@vm.temple.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: greetings
Message-ID: <3290EC96.5545@vm.temple.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello!

I'm a recent subscriber (last week) and have enjoyed lurking about until now, listening 
to loopfuls of intelligent conversation.  Since I'm starting to get an idea of who you 
all are, I think it would be fair at this point to explain mySELF:

My interest in looping began as a result of dabbling in electronic industrial music.  
Five or six years ago, all I had was a Korg synth and an AKAI S612 Sampler.  No drum 
machine...no sequencer.  So, in an effort to create some rhythms, I would sample my 
synth/voice/etc and play along.  At the time, I was not appreciative of the flexibility 
and fluidity of expression that a looping device offers.  I was irritated that I could 
not get a "steady beat," that the bpms could not be quantized.  Through saving my 
pennies and selling the AKAI sampler, I bought an Ensoniq ASR-10 sampling workstation.  
I was looking forward to sampling, sequencing, quantizing, and keeping everything in its 
place.  It was not long before I realized that I was not going to like the new machine.

The Ensoniq ASR-10, although a powerful machine, cannot "sample on the fly."  I was 
outraged that a $2,000 sampler could not be used to perform the same procedures as a 
JamMan or a cheaper digitech FX pedal.  I've found that sequencing and quantizing can 
deaden the creative process before it even begins...as well as deaden an appreciation 
for anything that is "offbeat," and not predetermined over the time of a piece.

Anyhow, I recently purchased a Lexicon JamMan and hope that it will allow me to do some 
of the things that I used to do with my old AKAI sampler (it had start- and end-point 
sliders that could be reversed simultaneously during sample playback).  I would 
appreciate any advice in terms of its use.

In addition, I'm excited about having subscribed to this list because I'm looking for 
some answers on how to work though some obstacles in the creative process.  For example, 
I enjoy creating text loops of my own and others writings embedded in a sonic context 
that will persuade the listener to reconsider the meaning of the words and/or the effect 
of the music in ways not previously considered.  Overall, I would appreciate any 
commentary on the processes used by list subscribers to brainstorm and 
eventually structure their work.

Sean O'Donnell


Kim Flint wrote:
> 
> >> Actually, a whole bunch of new list subscriptions came in over the past
> >> week. That usually means some good publicity happened somewhere. So I'm a
> >> little curious as to how you new folks found out about us. Was there a
> >> post somewhere?
> >
> >Er, I mentioned Looper's Delight a week ago in a post to Elephant Talk
> >(which is subscribed by thousands). Don't know if this was it, but it
> >probably contributed.
> >
> 
> That would explain it. Feel free to do this sort of thing, I don't mind at all.
> 
> >If you're interested in more subscribers (and more work for you), there are
> >some (less crowded) newsgroups we could post on such as the Eno, Sylvian,
> >or Ambient newsgroups. I think by now, this mailing list + website have
> >grown rich and interesting enough to feel justified to go and boast a little.
> 
> I have been holding off on publicity because I didn't feel the list and web
> site were really ready. Now that the digest version is working, the regular
> list seems to be running smoothly, and the web site has a reasonable amount
> of interesting content, I think more publicity is fine.
> 
> If any of you are on other lists that may have members interested in
> looping, feel free to let them know about Looper's Delight. I'd be
> especially interested in bringing in some folks from the
> techno/dub/industrial/ambient world, some dj's, and acoustic musicians of
> various sorts. (the Adrian Legg, Leo Kottke variety seem to have an
> affinity for loops) We seem to be a bit top heavy with Fripp influenced
> guitarists so far, which is ok, but more variety is good in my opinion.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> kim
> 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
> kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
> http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:15:38 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: How does Schon Sync?
Message-Id: <v01520d02aeb5bab17d36@[200.254.32.115]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>It seems to me that getting a perfectly in-sync loop of a
>rhythm guitar part that the drummer (and the rest of the band) can
>reliably play to is an extremely dubious proposition.
>
>Playing a rhythmic, strictly in-time loop, and triggering the start/stop
>points manually from a footpedal, is a quite demanding task.  Take all of
>the possible rhythmic quirks that could crop up in that process, and then
>compund that with the entire band having to groove to the loop, and what
>have you got?  A potential train wreck.

The band would have to send the cues, for example in form of a kick to the
beat sync input. Or something very clear is looped like a bass line or a
drum beat. Then the band folows that loop and the rambling musicians sync
to it.

>So I'd be very interested to know if the band does indeed use some sort
>of time code with which to sync the band (and the Plex) together.

Me too.

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:39:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Mermen recommendations?
Message-Id: <199611190239.SAA02051@pure.PureAtria.COM>

>
>Can anyone recommed a Mermen record, particularly one with a heavy loop 
>content?

I don't know about loop content, but my favorites are "Songs of the
Cows" and um, the one whose name I don't remember.  (jumping over to
the Mermen web site) Um, "Food For Other Fish".  They are both superb
if you like psyched-out instrumental "surf" rock.  IMO, they're the
best. 

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 22:26:31 -0500
From: KILLINFO@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Mermen recommendations?
Message-ID: <961118222628_1716140413@emout07.mail.aol.com>

In recent postings...

>> Can anyone recommed a Mermen record, particularly one 
>> with a heavy loop content?

> I don't know about loop content, but my favorites are 
> "Songs of the Cows" and um, the one whose name I don't 
> remember.  (jumping over to the Mermen web site) Um, 
> "Food For Other Fish".  They are both superb if you like 
> psyched-out instrumental "surf" rock.  IMO, they're the best. 

Between these two albums they also released another title
"A Glorious Lethal Euphoria" which is also an excellent 
disk (IMHO). I believe the label is Mesa/Blue Moon (?) 

Ted

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 03:29:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Cook <ecook@conch.aa.msen.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: How does Schon Sync?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.961119030950.3675C-100000@conch.aa.msen.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> >It seems to me that getting a perfectly in-sync loop of a
> >rhythm guitar part that the drummer (and the rest of the band) can
> >reliably play to is an extremely dubious proposition.
> >
> >Playing a rhythmic, strictly in-time loop, and triggering the start/stop
> >points manually from a footpedal, is a quite demanding task.  Take all of
> >the possible rhythmic quirks that could crop up in that process, and then
> >compund that with the entire band having to groove to the loop, and what
> >have you got?  A potential train wreck.

Rather than a wreck, you also have the possibility of something exciting
and unexpected happening.  We've used a lot of live guitar loops (mainly
from the digitech 8-second sampler pedal), both live and in recording, and
I've been consistently surprised and pleased with the results with both
in-sync and out-sync loops.  The in-sync loops provide all of the points
you would expect (statement of the riff under a solo, bass line
approximations -- we're a bassless trio, so this has been valuable, and so
on), but the truly exciting parts for me have been the out-sync loops.
You can wind up with just truly bizarre counter-rhythms, strange
"accidental" harmonies, all sorts of essentially non-reproducible results,
which add both a "seat-of-your-pants" excitment for us as performers, and
new compositional elements that we literally could not have planned out
before hand.  And all of this, for me, is a very good thing.

[I suppose I should mention that this is all filtered through the context
of playing in a semi-improv noisy psych/space rock band of sorts, so my
biases should be apparent as to _why_ I consider this to be a good thing.
But I do believe that accepting the "accidents" of looping material has
value and application even outside of that immediate context.]

I can discuss particular techniques that have worked for us as a whole, as
well as methods that I use as a drummer for dealing with playing against
non-synced loops if there's any interest.  Heck, I may blather about it
even if there's not. :)


Accept the accidents -- there is value in them.

--Eric Cook                 ecook@mail.msen.com
  Gravitar-Guy              http://www.msen.com/~ecook/gravitar.html

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:25:22 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: phrase sampler
Message-Id: <v01520d00aeb74918d83c@[200.254.32.110]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Roland makes a "MS1 digital sampler"

There is a small text at http://www.rolandus.com/products/MI/MIprod_SS_PS.html

I did not understand how close it is to what we are looking for...

Greetings
Matthias

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 03:37:45 -0800
From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: How does Schon Sync?
Message-Id: <v02140b08aeb73b7fb14e@[207.171.196.198]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Kim Flint wrote:
>
>> Another rocker using loopers is Neal Schon of Journey.
>> He does a couple of things with them live. One is the obvious,
>> looping a rhythm part so that he can solo over it. For a band like Journey
>> its pretty important to duplicate the recorded versions fairly accurately,
>> and the loopers make the overdubbed parts on the album doable live.
>
>OK, here's a question: Does Schon's drummer play to a click, to which the
>Echoplex is also synched?

I'm not sure, but I suspect he doesn't.


>I ask because it seems to me that getting a perfectly in-sync loop of a
>rhythm guitar part that the drummer (and the rest of the band) can
>reliably play to is an extremely dubious proposition.

Is it? We're talking about a band full of very competent musicians. They've
all logged thousands of hours of studio and live playing time. I imagine
that playing in stadiums is where you really learn how to maintain a groove
under adverse sound conditions! When you can't hear the rest of the band,
or even see them, the way you make it work is by maintaining a very steady
tempo and trusting the others to do the same.

I doubt that they do anything exotic with the looping. I think Neal just
records the loop, and the band plays to it. The reason it works is that
these guys have a very good sense of rhythm. Neal's rhythm guitar playing
is very tight, and so are his loops. When he records a loop, the timing is
about as perfect as you could ask for.

>Playing a rhythmic, strictly in-time loop, and triggering the start/stop
>points manually from a footpedal, is a quite demanding task.  Take all of
>the possible rhythmic quirks that could crop up in that process, and then
>compund that with the entire band having to groove to the loop, and what
>have you got?  A potential train wreck.

I've seen plenty of bands having trouble grooving together no matter what
they did. I think its a question of musicianship and practice.

Most people, especially guitar players, have trouble recording loops in
time at first. It takes a while to realize that the action with your foot
on the pedal is a musical event, and has to be done in rhythm. I've helped
an awful lot of guitar players through this first step. You'd be amazed at
how many people tap the record button, and then start playing a moment
later.

With practice, you get much better at recording your loops in rhythm. It
forces you to improve your own sense of time. Looping certainly did that
for me. Like any aspect of your music, with practice, you get better.

Neal Schon has spent hundreds of hours practicing and working with his
echoplexes. He uses them really well, and never has problems getting the
loops in time. Of course it doesn't hurt that his sense of rhythm is
amazingly good.

It's easy for me to poke fun at Journey and Neal, being journey and all,
but he really is a pretty good musician. When I was first showing him how
to use the Echoplex, for some reason he decided to record a solo first, and
overdub the rhythm part. He had over 30 seconds worth of rock guitar solo
looping, and starts overdubbing chord progressions with it. I'm thinking
"you can't do that, it's impossible to get that in time. I'm never gonna be
able to teach this guy to do this right."  He stops playing the rhythm
part, and I realize that its perfectly in time with the solo, and that he
finished playing exactly at the end of a pretty long loop. Not only that,
the solo he played in the first place was in time and was an even number of
beats in length so that it fit perfectly into an ordinary sort of rock
progression. My respect for his musicianship went up a lot right then,
because I sure as hell couldn't do that.

But really, looping in rhythm with or without other musicians just takes
some practice. Neal represents an example that this is possible. If you
play with people who actually listen to what the others are doing, its not
hard to integrate looping into a band situation. It might not work out
right at first, but then what does? Just work at it a bit and you'll get
it. Its easier than playing Giant Steps!

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:17:50 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Text loops?
Message-Id: <v01520d02aeb7b4350f46@[200.254.32.109]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sean o'donnell brings up:
>I enjoy creating text loops of my own and others writings embedded in a
>sonic context
>that will persuade the listener to reconsider the meaning of the words
>and/or the effect
>of the music in ways not previously considered.

This sounds interesting, too. We did not talk about text loops yet.

I remember playing around with text mixtures. The most obvious thing if you
show a looper to a non musician. The recombination of the words can be fun.


Repetition also can be brainwash?!

Matthias

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