------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain

Loopers-Delight-d Digest                                Volume 96 : Issue 21

Today's Topics:
  Samplers as loopers?                  [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Re: How does Schon Sync?              [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Re: How does Schon Sync?              [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CAL ]
  Re: Samplers as loopers?              [ sean o'donnell <sodonne@vm.temple.e ]
  phila. workshop                       [ sean o'donnell <sodonne@vm.temple.e ]
  Digital Guitar Digest # 104 (fwd)     [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CAL ]
  Re: Mermen recommendations?           [ Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM> ]
  First Contact                         [ GregWest01@aol.com ]
  Re: How does Schon Sync?              [ Eric Cook <ecook@conch.aa.msen.com> ]
  Re: First Contact (or, a drummer def  [ Eric Cook <ecook@conch.aa.msen.com> ]
  Re: First Contact (or, a drummer def  [ Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net> ]
  Intro and Workshops ??                [ Jason Bell <106417.737@compuserve.c ]

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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:17:55 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Samplers as loopers?
Message-Id: <v01520d03aeb7b73cc57b@[200.254.32.109]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sean o'donnell comes from a different side, saying:
>I was looking forward to sampling, sequencing, quantizing, and keeping
>everything in its
>place.  It was not long before I realized that I was not going to like the
>new machine.
>
>The Ensoniq ASR-10, although a powerful machine, cannot "sample on the
>fly."  I was
>outraged that a $2,000 sampler could not be used to perform the same
>procedures as a
>JamMan or a cheaper digitech FX pedal.  I've found that sequencing and
>quantizing can
>deaden the creative process before it even begins...as well as deaden an
>appreciation
>for anything that is "offbeat," and not predetermined over the time of a piece.

This is a good point. I was amazed too, when I was looking for a looping
device, to see that most samplers have all Hardware ready for looping and
do not care to create the software. So in the future looping could be done
either on multi effect machines, computers or samplers. And samplers have
more memory than multi effects. But the pitch change should be without time
change, right?
Then I imagine it totaly shocking to be able to polyphonically detune
immediately whatever happens on stage!

>My old AKAI sampler had start- and end-point sliders that could be
>reversed simultaneously during sample playback).

I did not understand "reversed simultaneously". How do these features work,
and what did you use them for?


Thanks for joining and bringing new questions and answers
Matthias

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:17:42 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: How does Schon Sync?
Message-Id: <v01520d01aeb7b0722d1f@[200.254.32.109]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Eric Cook appeared and stated strongly:

>We've used a lot of live guitar loops (mainly
>from the digitech 8-second sampler pedal), both live and in recording, and
>I've been consistently surprised and pleased with the results with both
>in-sync and out-sync loops.

You are talking about only one machine, being in sync or not with the
actual playing of the band, right?

>You can wind up with just truly bizarre counter-rhythms, strange
>"accidental" harmonies, all sorts of essentially non-reproducible results,
>which add both a "seat-of-your-pants" excitment for us as performers, and
>new compositional elements that we literally could not have planned out
>before hand.  And all of this, for me, is a very good thing.

>[I suppose I should mention that this is all filtered through the context
>of playing in a semi-improv noisy psych/space rock band of sorts, so my
>biases should be apparent as to _why_ I consider this to be a good thing.
>But I do believe that accepting the "accidents" of looping material has
>value and application even outside of that immediate context.]

It is certainly exiting for you, but how does a public think about it?
Would'nt it be the nicest to be able to "play unexpected" and produce the
clima of surprise within a synced rithmical order? (I may be totaly wrong
here)

>I can discuss particular techniques that have worked for us as a whole, as
>well as methods that I use as a drummer for dealing with playing against
>non-synced loops if there's any interest.  Heck, I may blather about it
>even if there's not. :)

I you use "methods" don't they end up cuting down the space for the
accidents? Probably depends on the kind of methods... give us some more
hints!
"blather"? No, a speach for over 50 interested specialists.. :-)

>Accept the accidents -- there is value in them.

Totaly agreed!

Thank you for this contribution
Matthias

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:17:39 -0800 (PST)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: How does Schon Sync?
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.961119120944.24217B-100000@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Good points from all regarding the hazards and odds of successful
un-synced looping in a live context.  Certainly, I'm willing to credit the
Journey crew with being among the more professional and accomplished
musicians out there today, regardless of my personal use for their music
(although I really dug the tune of theirs on the "Tron" soundtrack
thirteen years ago 8-] ), and I've no doubt that Schon has a killer sense
of rhythm. 

The main problem that I see with trying to do an in-time loop live with a
band is that the loop obviously isn't going to adjust to accommodate what
anyone else is doing, so the band needs to play to the loop.  If the
drummer can't hear the loop clearly, then there's a big problem.  But as
Kim pointed out, the band is consumately professional, with thousands of
arena and studio hours under their belts, and are privy to
better-than-average monitoring systems, so it's reasonable to assume that
they can pull it off.  I guess I just assumed that a band as slick as
Journey would want to make sure all bases are covered for that sort of
approach. 

Eric Cook's ideas about deliberately asynchronous loops are also very 
acute, although they raise some issues of sonc aesthetic that, again, I 
wouldn't associate with a group like Journey.  Pretty much all the loops 
I've used with bands have been of the 
rubato-soundscape-free-time-atmosphere variety.

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:20:53 -0800
From: sean o'donnell <sodonne@vm.temple.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Samplers as loopers?
Message-ID: <32924EE5.2B8E@vm.temple.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Matthias Grob wrote:
> 
> ...I was amazed too, when I was looking for a looping
> device, to see that most samplers have all Hardware ready for looping and
> do not care to create the software. So in the future looping could be done
> either on multi effect machines, computers or samplers. And samplers have
> more memory than multi effects. But the pitch change should be without time
> change, right?
> Then I imagine it totaly shocking to be able to polyphonically detune
> immediately whatever happens on stage!

Although my sampler has a whole lot of memory (16MB), it is incapable of modulating 
pitch without a sample shortening or lengthening over time.  That is, if I sample my 
voice saying "Matthias" at middle C on the keyboard, playing it back at an octave lower 
would result in "MMMAAAATTHHHIIIAAAASSSSSS" in a deep beelzebubbish voice.  Although, my 
 sampler has a sample conversion function that will supposedly maintain a fixed time for 
a sample while allowing for pitch alteration, it is time-consuming and absolutely not a 
real-time stunt.

> >My old AKAI sampler had start- and end-point sliders that could be
> >reversed simultaneously during sample playback).
> 
> I did not understand "reversed simultaneously". How do these features work,
> and what did you use them for?

Two sliders were on the face of the unit and were used to control sample start- and 
end-points.  Both sliders were identical and were situated one above the other. Each 
slider represented a value of 100 units (-50 to +50).  Now, here's the fun part.  
Depending on their positions relative to one another, either slider could represent the 
start- or end-point of the sample.  For example, with the top slider all the way to the 
right and the bottom all the way to the left, the top will control the sample playback 
start-point and the bottom will control the playback end-point.  Moving the two closer 
to the centers of the slider ranges, and therefore closer to one another, reduces the 
time of the sample and increases the triggering of the sample start- and end-points.  
Once the top slider is moved far enough the right, and the bottom one is moved far 
enough to the left, the two will cross over the zero start/end point.  Wierd metallic 
tones are generated.  In continuing to move the sliders (top still moving right and 
bottom still moving left), the sample will  be "growing" in length once again, but the 
start-point will have become the end-point, and the end-point will have switched to 
become the start-point.  The sample will be playing in reverse.

I may have just explained something that is entirely elementary to everyone on this 
list in way too many words, but I thought I should clarify my statement sent in the 
previous e-mail.  In summary, what comes around, goes around.

> Thanks for joining and bringing new questions and answers
> Matthias

You're welcome ;)

Sean

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:30:59 -0800
From: sean o'donnell <sodonne@vm.temple.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight <loopers-delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: phila. workshop
Message-ID: <32925143.6F0A@vm.temple.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The following is an announcement of an improvisational art workshop that was held last 
week in Philadelphia.  Myself and another loop-artist attended.  It was a blast.  If you 
live "close" to Philadelphia ("closeness" being a function of money/time these days) and 
have a hankerin' to engage in some seriously improvisational looping hysterics--come on 
down. 

< Workshop Announcement >

 HIGHWIRE Gallery presents

 * L A P   A R T   workshop *

 o   Date: Wednesdays, November 13th and 20th
 o   Time: 7:30-9:30PM
 o   Place: at Highwire Gallery
            137 N. 2nd Street, Philadelphia (btw Arch & Race Sts.)
 o   Fee: _Free_ and _Open_ to all
 o   Bring small scale art media such as sketchbooks, etc.
 o   Musicians may bring his/her instruments.
 o   For more information, respond to this email, or please call:
     (NJ) Joe Plegman at (609) 795-0857 or
     (PA) Toshi Makihara at (215) 659-0557

On Wednesdays, November 13th and 20th at 7:30PM, HIGHWIRE Gallery is happy to
present its monthly "LAP ART" workshops. LAP ART is a term coined by artist Joe
Plageman to signify an interdisciplinary and experimental workshop for
visual/performing artists and guests. Informal presentations / performances by
various performing artists (musicians, dancers, poets, etc.) will stimulate
visual artists to create spontaneous and improvisational sketches.  Also
musicians may be able to "see" the visual art works as their musical score, or
other performing artists can be artistically/spiritually inspired by them.

Visual artists usually work on a small scale with paper on board on their laps,
or in sketchbooks or on the floor with mostly dry media.  The purpose of the
workshop is for artists of different media and disciplines to interact with and
respond to each other, so that the art produced would be unique to a particular
session and inspired by art from a discipline other than itself, such as music,
spoken word, dance, performance art, drama, video, or other art forms.
Musicians would respond to visual art; dance would respond to poetry, or
another discipline, etc. Experimentation, playfulness, openness, discovery --
these are key themes and motivations of these creative laboratories. They are
open to the public which may also participate. Each session is different
in that the participants come with possibilities, ideas, and media, but no
fixed agenda; thus new discoveries are possible.

Hope to see you there.

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 20:50:18 -0800 (PST)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Digital Guitar Digest # 104 (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.961119204325.26242A-100000@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Here's an interesting tidbit...


========================================

From: NedR@shersoft.com
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 9:48:44 -0500
Subject: RE: Digital Guitar Digest # 102 

Paolo,

I have been subscribing to your news digest for a while and really
appreciate the effort that you put into it. 

I have just formed a new company, RePlay Technologies, Inc. Our first
product is CD Looper which allows you to create any number of loops for
any music CD using your windows computer. These loops can be any length.
Additionally, any loop can be slowed down 2, 3 or 4 times without changing
pitch. 

This is a list of all the features: 

*       Slow down any section of a song 2, 3, or 4 times without changing the
pitch. * Slowed loops can be sped up in 10 percent increments. * Length of
slowed loops is limited only by disk space. * Each loop point can be set
to within 1/100th of a second accuracy. * Unlimited number of loops per
track. * Loops can be any length. * Loops can be played continously or a
set number of times. * Loops can be automatically paused between each
iteration. * Loops can be grouped together making it easy to learn
complete sections of a song. * Each loop and track can have a descriptive
narative indicating, for example, key or tempo. * Extremely intuitive
interface, promoting hands-free operation. * Teachers can export a track's
or cd's loop points making any song easy for their students to learn. *
Tracks and cd's can be set for continuous play. * Improves your musical
ear as you listen and practice loops. * Supports customized play lists. *
16 and 32-bit versions. 

Our web site is located at http://www.replayinc.com. People visiting the
site can download a fully working demo of the product and are eligible to
receive special, internet pricing. 

Do you think you can include this in the next issue of Digital Guitar
Digest? I can also send you a press release if you would like. 

Thanks,

Ned Robinson
RePlay Technologies, Inc.

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:03:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Mermen recommendations?
Message-Id: <199611200703.XAA00993@pure.PureAtria.COM>

>Between these two albums they also released another title
>"A Glorious Lethal Euphoria" which is also an excellent 
>disk (IMHO). I believe the label is Mesa/Blue Moon (?) 

And Krill Slippin (?), neither of which I like as much.

I'm still looking for the one recorded at kfjc, so if anyone spots it,
lemme know!  I hesitated, and it disappeared from the shelves.

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:19:47 -0500
From: GregWest01@aol.com
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: First Contact
Message-ID: <961120021946_2048091100@emout06.mail.aol.com>

Hi,

I just recently stumbled upon the list after seeing it on the "Elephant Talk"
newsletter.  Cool idea.  I submitted my looping demographics on the "Looper's
page."  This is my first posting, so forgive me for rambling a little.

In reference to the asynchronous looping, I'd love to find a drummer who can
keep track of beats and time signatures without help (isn't that what a
drummer's supposed to do--keep time?)  But I've not found one yet who can
play freely and creatively against a separate time signature or polyrhythmic
textures.

I recorded my album "Orion Ascending" with Pat Mundy, who played Indian tabla
on two cuts.  His ability to function in dense and intricate rhythmic
textures was phenomenal, but when we experimented early on with loops, he
just couldn't get used to it.  He felt too "exposed" by being out there with
no one else holding down the beat with him.  My concept was that the drums
create their own space while the loop makes a "context" for the events that
occur within its "domain."  It seems that drummers feel "naked" without a
bass player or someone else keeping time with them.  (I'd think that would be
liberating!)  On the CD, Pat ended up recording two acoustic (non-looped)
pieces with me.

I use both a 32-second Jam Man and a 4-second Digitech in my looped
performances, and I enjoy the way the loops interact when they're not synced.
I was jamming with a friend several months ago and we ended up creating some
kind of weird collage with two non-synced loops.  He wanted to stop playing
and try again, and I yelled (over the cacophonous din) "No,  keep it
going--watch what happens!"  In the moments that followed, in a manner
similar to which your vision resolves those computer-generated 3-D posters
into something discernable, the two loops created something new that was
glued together by the playing that occurred between them.  Our brains
naturally seek patterns out of chaos... and left with only chaos to process,
the brain will create its own patterns.  In this manner, the audience becomes
a participant in the creative process and no two listeners will come to this
resolution in the same time or even the same way.  It's like quantum music!

When I recorded two looped pieces from my CD, I watched a cynical recording
engineer go from a "what is this crap supposed to be?" attitude to total
absorption into the looping process.  After recording  the second piece while
sitting next to her in the control room, she turned to me and said "Greg, I'm
so glad you decided to record your project with us."  I was flattered and
pleased to see how the process affected her.  That's what makes looping so
compelling and satisfying.  My whole philosophy is that music exists around
us like white light. My job, in performance, is to act as a prism that
refracts the music that exists in that time and place into patterns, colors,
and shapes that can be used to make "audible light."

Finally, someone discussed earlier how to get your audience more involved.
 Here's an idea I use.  Before launching into looped works, I briefly explain
and demonstrate how the various pieces of technology work and show how a loop
is constructed.  Typically, I take a short children's round, like "Row, Row,
Row Your Boat" or "Frere Jacques" and loop the melody and add the rounds.
 People can relate to that easily.  Then I work from that loop and change the
tonality to something modal, and begin to warp and twist it.  Audiences love
this!

The other tip I had, is to explain briefly (accounting for non-musicians
present) that the octave consists of 12 tones, and how they are named.  I
then select four people at random from the audience to call out a note name,
which I then enter into a loop of varying length.  The audience becomes very
involved in this, and members with musical backgrounds often try to
"sabotage" the process by adding intentionally dissonant tones.  The last
time I tried this the four notes I was given perfectly outlined a wholetone
scale.  This made a particularly monstrous loop which was delightful since
the concert took place under a full moon, just a few days before Hallowe'en!

Enough ramblings!  This list is cool.  I enjoy your comments and will answer
e-mail as often as time permits.

Cheers!

Greg West/Six-String Arts

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:34:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Cook <ecook@conch.aa.msen.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: How does Schon Sync?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.961120014715.29769B-100000@conch.aa.msen.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Matthias Grob wrote:

> >We've used a lot of live guitar loops (mainly
> >from the digitech 8-second sampler pedal),

> You are talking about only one machine, being in sync or not with the
> actual playing of the band, right?

The 8-second is the primary one, but also the 2-second digitech sampler
pedal, and some other sundry shorter delays.  But yeah, the
machine/machines being in/out of sync with the live band is where I'm
coming from, as opposed to Fripp/Eno style situation, where the loops are
the totality of the piece.

> >You can wind up with just truly bizarre counter-rhythms, strange
> >"accidental" harmonies, all sorts of essentially non-reproducible results,
> >which add both a "seat-of-your-pants" excitment for us as performers, and
>
> It is certainly exiting for you, but how does a public think about it?
> Would'nt it be the nicest to be able to "play unexpected" and produce the
> clima of surprise within a synced rithmical order? (I may be totaly wrong
> here)

This is a good couple of questions, Matthias.  The first one raises more
issues than I want to get into -- any serious question of audience/performer
interaction deserves at least a post of its own, and is perhaps not
"loop-centric" enough to be on-topic for this list.

The second one I can come up with a more concise reply for:  Sometimes
yes, sometimes no.  It would be almost entirely dependent on the piece,
and what was called for in the context of the piece.  Out-sync (or
shifting-sync, rather) loops would be entirely inappropriate for a piece
by, say, Journey, but could be entirely appropriate for a piece by DJ Spooky.
My point really was just to say that out-sync loops aren't inherently
"wrong" musically (even in a rock context), but an equally valid
compositional element.

And really, isn't any repeating loop going to "sync" with the rest of the
music?  It doesn't need to necessarily fit into a strict time signature
quantization of time; say you're playing in 4/4; if you superimposed a
loop 5 beats long over top of it, the placement of the "downbeat" of the
loop will shift in relation to the rest of the music, in a regular and
repetative pattern.  It's not much of a conceptual stretch to dispense
with the need to make the loop fit "exactly" into a quantitized beat
at all at that point. (Though if someone really wanted to figure out that
some arbitrary loop was exactly 4.37 beats long, more power to them. :)

Correspondingly, can't the rhythm of a piece be created as much by the
totality of the looping and non-looping parts as by the "base" that
is being looped over?  I think its somewhat of a false distinction to
break the two segments apart.  (If the loop is serving as something more
than "ornamental sound effects", that is.)

> If you use "methods" don't they end up cuting down the space for the
> accidents? Probably depends on the kind of methods... give us some more
> hints!

I am going to pursue this part further, but right now, sleep has a higher precedence.

Enjoying the conversation,
--Eric Cook                 ecook@mail.msen.com
  Gravitar-Guy              http://www.msen.com/~ecook/gravitar.html

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 03:01:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Eric Cook <ecook@conch.aa.msen.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: First Contact (or, a drummer defends his breed).
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.92.961120023839.29769C-100000@conch.aa.msen.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Here I was on the way to bed, and then...

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 GregWest01@aol.com wrote:

> In reference to the asynchronous looping, I'd love to find a drummer who can
> keep track of beats and time signatures without help (isn't that what a
> drummer's supposed to do--keep time?)

Ack!  Sorry for going off-"loop-topic", but this is a pet peeve:

One of the best drum teachers I ever had was a man named Cliff Davies.
During one of our first lessons together, Cliff looked me straight into
the eye and gave me one of the most valuable lessons I ever had about
drumming:  "The drummer does not keep time.  Many people -- many drummers
-- think this.  They're wrong.  Metronomes keep time.  If the people you
are playing with can't keep on beat and in time without you doing it for them,
you shouldn't be wasting your time playing with them.  They need a
metronome, not a drummer."

What he meant was not that a "real" drummer should play entirely free, or
in out time, or something like that.  Rather, a drummer should interact
with the beat, create a dialogue with it, emphasize certain parts,
de-emphasize others.  Dialogue and emphasis -- not "just" time keeping.


> But I've not found one yet who can
> play freely and creatively against a separate time signature or polyrhythmic
> textures.

Ok, tomorrow I present to you all the alpha version of my "Drummers guide
to playing with Loops."  It's not really all that hard, though it did
take a little of a conceptual shift for me.


> just couldn't get used to it.  He felt too "exposed" by being out there with
> no one else holding down the beat with him.  My concept was that the drums
> create their own space while the loop makes a "context" for the events that
> occur within its "domain."

Absolutely.  Did you explain it to him that way?

> It seems that drummers feel "naked" without a
> bass player or someone else keeping time with them.  (I'd think that would be
> liberating!)

It is liberating.  I haven't played drums with a bass player in years.  I
don't miss it.


--Eric Cook                 ecook@mail.msen.com
  Gravitar-Guy              http://www.msen.com/~ecook/gravitar.html

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:04:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: First Contact (or, a drummer defends his breed).
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.93.961120095402.12445A-100000@icarus.icarus.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 20 Nov 1996, Eric Cook wrote:

> > In reference to the asynchronous looping, I'd love to find a drummer who can
> > keep track of beats and time signatures without help (isn't that what a
> > drummer's supposed to do--keep time?)
> 
> Ack!  Sorry for going off-"loop-topic", but this is a pet peeve:
> 
> One of the best drum teachers I ever had was a man named Cliff Davies.
> During one of our first lessons together, Cliff looked me straight into
> the eye and gave me one of the most valuable lessons I ever had about
> drumming:  "The drummer does not keep time.  Many people -- many drummers
> -- think this.  They're wrong.  Metronomes keep time.  If the people you
> are playing with can't keep on beat and in time without you doing it for them,
> you shouldn't be wasting your time playing with them.  They need a
> metronome, not a drummer."
> 
> What he meant was not that a "real" drummer should play entirely free, or
> in out time, or something like that.  Rather, a drummer should interact
> with the beat, create a dialogue with it, emphasize certain parts,
> de-emphasize others.  Dialogue and emphasis -- not "just" time keeping.

My own early lessons in good time-keeping came from a reggae
guitarist/bassist I sometimes jammed with.  We'd play guitar and bass
through a shared amp, no drummer, just reggae grooves.  His main
lesson was that, in reggae, it isn't the guitarist or the drummer
keeping time, it's the bassist.  The bass should be square on the
beat, while the guitars and drums lag a bit to get the laid-back
feel.  Ska is just reggae played ahead of the beat rather than behind
the beat.  The bass and kick drum keep time.  The guitars, snare, and
hi-hat make the groove.  This applies to all sorts of music.  The mark
of a good drummer is making a groove, not a beat.  And the mark of a
good bassist is keeping time for everyone else. 

> > But I've not found one yet who can
> > play freely and creatively against a separate time signature or polyrhythmic
> > textures.

You think drummers are bad?  Try playing with guitarists!  Or worse,
classically trained musicians who can't follow anything that isn't in
a "standard" time signature, or jazz musicians who desparately need
chordal movement instead of drones.  But really, any sort of musician
who can't handle something new is going to be a problem.  This
includes most rock guitarists and drummers.  

By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete.
Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. 
Venus De Milo.
To a child she is ugly.       /* dstagner@icarus.net */
   -Charles Fort              

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:33:25 -0500
From: Jason Bell <106417.737@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Intro and Workshops ??
Message-ID: <199611201434_MC1-C3F-128A@compuserve.com>

First of all the introductions.  I'm Jason Bell, a Chapman Stick player
from York, England.  Another Fripp fan, but I won't go on about it.  More
ambient than loop but I'm after a Lexicon Jam Man.  Anyway, back to
business.


> HIGHWIRE Gallery presents

> * L A P   A R T   workshop *

> o   Date: Wednesdays, November 13th and 20th
> o   Time: 7:30-9:30PM
> o   Place: at Highwire Gallery
       137 N. 2nd Street, Philadelphia (btw Arch & Race Sts.)
> o   Fee: _Free_ and _Open_ to all
> o   Bring small scale art media such as sketchbooks, etc.
> o   Musicians may bring his/her instruments.

Does anything like this exist in the UK, if not, who want to start
....................

Regards

Jason Bell (106417.737@compuserve.com)

--------------------------------