------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain

Loopers-Delight-d Digest                                Volume 96 : Issue 26

Today's Topics:
  Re:Jam Man Odd Time Signatures        [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CAL ]
  Loopers invade _Guitar Player_        [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CAL ]
  Re: Jam Man Odd Time Signatures       [ ejmd@erols.com (Ed Drake) ]
  Re: Drumming with loops -- some meth  [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Looping acoustic instruments          [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Re: Looping acoustic instruments      [ "Greg & Sandee West" <gdwest@anc.ak ]
  Re: Jam Man Odd Time / Plexs MIDI     [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Re: Jam Man Odd Time / Plexs MIDI     [ ejmd@erols.com (Ed Drake) ]
  echoplex prices?                      [ Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski,  ]
  Re: Steve Reich & Musicians           [ Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM> ]
  Vortex Alert and formal delurk        [ JOHNPOLLOCK@delphi.com ]
  Re: echoplex prices?                  [ c62op27@ibx.com (Victor Fiorillo) ]
  Re: Steve Reich & Musicians           [ Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski,  ]
  Re: echoplex prices?                  [ Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski,  ]
  Re: Steve Reich & Musicians           [ Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM> ]

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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:27:45 -0800 (PST)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re:Jam Man Odd Time Signatures
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.961127122351.12251A-100000@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Ed Drake wrote:

> The Jam man only syncs up to 3,4 6,8,12,16,24 MIDI quarter notes in a loop.
> I couldn't believe it didn't sync up to at least a few fairly common odd
> times other than 3 such as 5,7, and maybe even 11 and 13.

The fact that the JamMan fails to recognize 11/8 is alone and of itself 
evidence of the unit's inferiority.  ;-[

(No flames, people!  I'm having some fun here...)

Seriously, it's really unfortunate that it can't read 5, 7, 9, or 11 (the 
hardest-grooving odd meters, IMHO).  

> One question for you 'Plexers , do any of you use MIDI instead of the
> footswitch to control your Echoplexes .
> I'm sure the MIDI implementation is extensive for the 'Plex but I  haven't
> heard any of you talk much about it.

I've used the Plex synced up to a sequencer to record loops that are 
tightly quantized to the beginning and end points of a bar (or bars), 
including those in odd meter.  Record a riff, reverse it at will, and 
you've practically got a tune right there.

There are some fairly recent additions on the web site regarding Echoplex 
MIDI implementation.  Check it out.

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:35:52 -0800 (PST)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Loopers invade _Guitar Player_
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.961127122845.12294A-100000@shoko.CALARTS.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hiya!

There's a lot of loop content in the current issue of _Guitar Player_ 
magazine (the 30th anniversary issue).  Their feature on "The 30 Most 
Radical Players" includes quite a few loopists, both well-known (Torn and 
Frissel) and obscure (so much so that I don't recall their names off the 
top of my head).  There's also a section where the magazine does a 
retrospective of the most significant gear of each ot the last four 
decades, and lo and behold, the JamMan and Oberheim Echoplex get mentions 
in the '90s section.  (Though I recall them making a rather strange 
analogy with it -- something to the effect of, "In the '70s jazzers had 
fusion, and in the '90s they have looping," going on to claim that 
real-time loopers are staples of acid-jazz musicians.  ?!?!)

More, there's a private lesson with Leni Stern.  which turns out to be an
overdub-by-overdub looping clinic, as well as one with Fripp wherein he
details *three* alternate tunings, including one for *seven string*
guitar.  (Is this news to you people too, or have I been living under a
rock all these years?) And in less loop-oriented coverage, my mentor (and
frequent Torn collaborator) Miroslav Tadic receives some long-overdue
coverage in the "Dirty Thirty" article. 

Do check it out!

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 22:35:56 -0400
From: ejmd@erols.com (Ed Drake)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Jam Man Odd Time Signatures
Message-Id: <v01550100aec2a19ecb4d@[205.177.146.176]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Andre wrote:

>The fact that the JamMan fails to recognize 11/8 is alone and of itself
>evidence of the unit's inferiority.  ;-[
>
>(No flames, people!  I'm having some fun here...)
>
>Seriously, it's really unfortunate that it can't read 5, 7, 9, or 11 (the
>hardest-grooving odd meters, IMHO).

I couldn't agree with you more Andre !

Andre also said:

>I've used the Plex synced up to a sequencer to record loops that are
>tightly quantized to the beginning and end points of a bar (or bars),
>including those in odd meter.  Record a riff, reverse it at will, and
>you've practically got a tune right there.
>
>There are some fairly recent additions on the web site regarding Echoplex
>MIDI implementation.  Check it out.

I've read the posts about syncing via MIDI clock etc. Let me elaborate more
clearly about what I meant. I'm assuming like the Jam Man you can send MIDI
program change messages to the Echoplex to control all of the functions you
access from the foot pedal (Tap) and maybe even some of the front panel
functions you can't access from the pedal ( Cue Loops,etc.). Could someone
expound on this for me ? The reason I 'm asking is so that if/when(?) I get
an Echoplex I'll have some idea of how I can set it up and integrate it
with the rest of my stuff. If I can use a MIDI controller like Digital
Music's Ground Control or MIDI Midigator by Lake Butler to control from one
central location it would be nice. I could maybe save a few bucks too by
not having to buy the footswitch!  I don't know about you all but I'm
always looking for ways to minimize stumbling over yet another footpedal on
the floor. My feet are already happy enough.

                     Loopily yours           Ed

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:44:05 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Drumming with loops -- some methods (longish)
Message-Id: <v01520d02aec249c6faeb@[200.254.32.114]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Matthias Grob wrote:
>> Do you allways
>> easily hear acurately enough to follow? I understood from the other posts
>> that this was a problem?

Eric answered:
>Practically, yes, this can definitely be a problem.  Esp. in live
>situations, where the monitoring situation can range from flakey to worse.
>I use a small guitar amp, pointed right at me, slaved off the guitarist's
>main amp, as a monitor, and this seems to help, both for hearing the
>looping and non-looping material.  Plus I can control the volume of what's
>blasting at my head, which I also like.

Thats a good way.
I remembered another one, for the Plex: *BeatSync can be input or output*.
If you select SYNC = OUT, you get a pulse that is an audible click. So you
can draw a line directly from BeatSync to the monitor and turn it up in
case of doubt, or so.


>(re: post on Hint page)
>Yeah, the whole thing should be proof-read and polished up a bit before
>before anything.  I'm sure my tenses are flying back and forth all over
>the place as well.  :)

Our friends were very quick. I hope you agree with the published version?


>> Someone said that in Reggae and other music, the bass is reference and not
>> the drums.
>
>That's true -- would there be anything to add to these tips to generalize
>them more, so that they are more appropriate for a variety of genres?

Thats what I was looking for. There is input from other experienced people.

>> So simple way is to have the bassplayer start his loop first, defining the
>> time. He may record just a few "corner" notes, giving a base for every one,
>> but also leaving space to "curve" around.
>
>"curve" and "corner" -- that's a nice way to put it.

It just happened while writing. I liked it, too.


>> Did you never feel like having your own drum loop going, as a base and sync
>> reference for the others?
>
>Yeah, I do have pedal envy sometimes. :)
>Seriously, I have been trying to incorporate some live drums loops into
>the whole sheebang.  Tried baseing some songs on tape loops, but that had
>the problem of being a)very inflexable (at least with pedals/samplers, you
>can alter the speed or the loop if desired.  With tape, you're stuck.) and
>b)damn near inaudible once the whole band got going.

Looping loud instruments is difficult really. I wrote a text about this and
sent it to Kim where it ended :-). I might post it again.

>I've did recently get my own 8-second digitech sampler pedal, and a Roland
>SPD-11 drum pad, and have been slowly bringing that in at rehearsals.
>Haven't had the guts to try it live yet though.  So far, the less
>"Realistic" drum sounds seem to be blending in better (the more similar
>the sounds are to my kit, the more it just sounds like I'm playing sloppy
>if the loop drifts).

This way you are save from feedback, too.

>Seems like looping non-electronic percussion might be problematic live,
>though I'd love to hear from anyone who's done it at all, successful or
>not.

Bira did it recently here with clay pots, kalimba and small percussion. It
turned out very nice, without feedback problems. He played alone and not
loud, though.

Soon we will know more about this, I guess...

Matthias

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 16:44:16 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Looping acoustic instruments
Message-Id: <v01520d03aec24f7a51e2@[200.254.32.114]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Here are some proposuals to help colegues who want to loop accoustic
instruments like percussion. It is written for the ECHOPLEX, but should be
similar for other machines.

The problems are:

a) The difficulty to hear the correct volume of the instruments and mix
them correctly into the loop.

b) The danger of feedback. Even if the volume is not as high as to create a
oscillation, sound from the monitor enters the mike again and is recorded
again into the loop, deteriorizing the sound quality and making clean
Replace impossible.
Pressing Overdub really just while playing improves this situation a lot.
The Overdub Mode SUS helps to this.

c) Crosstalk from other instruments and noises into the loop. If the drums
is playing next to the percussionist or loud in the monitor, the snare will
we looped. Whether this is a problem or not depends on the music and the
way the loops are used.

d) The physical distance of the instruments and the various postures of
playing difficult the position of the pedal board.
ECHOPLEX pedal boards can be used in parallel. You can have the keys in
several places, even in several forms (to operate by knee or elbow, for
example)


Basically there are three ways to go:

        1. A microphone/sound system only for the loop

This is the most simple, suitable for rehearsals, small shows:
Connect a clip microphone directly to the ECHOPLEX and keep clipping it to
the instrument you want to loop. You can prepare a piece of wood on each
instrument so you know exactly where to clip the mic and how loud it is
going to be.
Mark the correct position of the Input control for each instrument so you
can adjust it quickly before you play.
Wind up the Mix control to "loop".
Connect the ECHOPLEX output to some amplifier (preferably not a guitar
amp!) and regulate the volume, so the instruments appear about equally loud
direct and from the loop. The sound will not be the same, but this can be
interesting even.

        2. Mixing on stage or by the bands sound man

The musician or a smart sound man controls the loops form the mixing desk.
The sound can be equalized for each instrument and monitorized. Thus, the
difference between the original and the looped sound becomes small.
The ECHOPLEX is connected like a reverb to a Aux send and returns to a
channel (remember to close the Aux in that channel!). The MIX control is
way up to "loop".
The problem is the position of the Aux send control in every channel. To
optimize cross talk, the sound man should only open the channel that is
actually going to be looped.
With this setup you can for example maintain a groove on the congas (Aux
closed) and throw a cymbal into the loop (Aux open) without having the
congas looped (except cross talk).

The most perfect solution: Headphones (getting popular anyway!).


        3. "Electric" percussion instruments:

Could be MIDI sounds, but that's to cold, sometimes.
Instruments like Korg WaveDrum are much better, because they bring details
of playing techniques through that cannot be recorded by MIDI, but very
well in the loop, because there is no problem with noises and feedback.

Maybe we should start inventing "electro-acoustic" percussion instruments
in the sense of a electro-acoustic guitar: Little resonance and a pick-up
in the right place. The sound can become richer, easier to amplify and the
instrument can be played very dynamic.
Also, a simple piece of metal that has no volume but maybe an interesting
sound can turn into a new instrument.
In general, this type of instruments will be lighter and smaller, need less
stands, less space on stage, can be accessed more imediately.
Piezo pick-ups are cheaper than good microphones, need no clamps.
Mixing desks with piezo inputs (impedance >1MOhm) are not common yet, but
most ordinary ones can be modified easily.

This is the most futuristic way. It will take time and efforts, but we will
end up there.

Matthias Grob    Salvador, April 96

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:54:10 -0900
From: "Greg & Sandee West" <gdwest@anc.ak.net>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Looping acoustic instruments
Message-Id: <199611282302.OAA15285@anc.ak.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi to all my Looping brethen and sisters,

In my concerts, I incorporate acoustic guitar as well as electric and synth
guitar into my loops.  I use both magnetic and piezo pickups on my
acoustics and switch between them for different sounds.  I usually run the
piezo pickups through EQ and reverb for a natural sound, and I use the
magnetic pickup through the looping gear.  The piezo pickup can be hard to
control feedback, because it responds more readily to the body resonances
induced by the looped audio.  The magnetic pickup gets processed through my
pedalboard (Boss ME-X digital effector with a Metal Zone, Dual Overdrive,
and a Compressor).  I use that to get electrified sounds out of the
acoustic.  E-Bow is also a great addition and can be used in conjunction
with the magnetic pickup.  It's fun to watch the reactions of the audience
when you suddenly pull "Frippish" sustained notes out of an acoustic
12-string loop.

I have enjoyed the comments of the list members immensely.  I wish there
were other loopers in Alaska that I could jam with.  I haven't found any so
far!  The comments of the drummers on the list have been especially
interesting.  I've experimented using sequenced drums, but have found the
results to be too limiting.  I'd love to find a jazz drummer in the style
of Jon Christiansen (he recorded with Ralph Towner on the Solstice albums)
who can play very light textures with driving intensity.

Anyhow, take care all.  Happy looping!!

Greg West

Please reply to:  GregWest01@aol.com
Website:  http://users.aol.com/GregWest01/index.html

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 21:09:32 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Jam Man Odd Time / Plexs MIDI
Message-Id: <v01520d02aec3c2d2db42@[200.254.32.102]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ed sed:
>I've read the posts about syncing via MIDI clock etc. Let me elaborate more
>clearly about what I meant. I'm assuming like the Jam Man you can send MIDI
>program change messages to the Echoplex to control all of the functions you
>access from the foot pedal (Tap) and maybe even some of the front panel
>functions you can't access from the pedal

All front keys are controllable by MIDI or hardware pedal.
Program change only will work in the upgrade. The main reason is that many
Plex functions are based on holding the key, which is not possible with
program change. We are figuring out a sceme where you can access these long
press functions with additional program numbers. So to do all, you might
end up with about 15 keys...

>( Cue Loops,etc.)

What do you mean?

>If I can use a MIDI controller like Digital
>Music's Ground Control or MIDI Midigator by Lake Butler to control from one
>central location it would be nice. I could maybe save a few bucks too by
>not having to buy the footswitch!

Good way to go. I do not know about Digital Music's Ground Control, but
Midigator can send control changes, so you can have all functions even with
the present version of the Plex.
Most people do not like the keys of the Oberheim pedal board. I do not use
it either.

Matthias

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 19:32:04 -0400
From: ejmd@erols.com (Ed Drake)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Jam Man Odd Time / Plexs MIDI
Message-Id: <v01550100aec3ca00f13a@[205.177.146.129]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Matthias said this about the Oberheim Echoplex :

>All front keys are controllable by MIDI or hardware pedal.
>Program change only will work in the upgrade. The main reason is that many
>Plex functions are based on holding the key, which is not possible with
>program change. We are figuring out a sceme where you can access these long
>press functions with additional program numbers. So to do all, you might
>end up with about 15 keys...
>
>>( Cue Loops,etc.)
>
>What do you mean?

Let's say you've recorded 4 loops in the Jam Man and are playing them back
for soloing over them or to use as different sections of a piece , if you
wanted to jump from loop 1 straight to loop 4 , you can just send the
proper MIDI program change number and it will happen, whereas if you were
using the footswitches, you would have to tap and scroll in order from loop
1 thru loops 2 and 3  to get to loop 4. It's very distracting to have to do
this and it's very easy to overshoot and go past where you wanted to stop ,
in which case you'd have to scroll thru again and stop on loop 4. Also, any
recent news about the 'Plex upgrade ?

>>If I can use a MIDI controller like Digital
>>Music's Ground Control or MIDI Midigator by Lake Butler to control from one
>>central location it would be nice. I could maybe save a few bucks too by
>>not having to buy the footswitch!
>
>Good way to go. I do not know about Digital Music's Ground Control, but
>Midigator can send control changes, so you can have all functions even with
>the present version of the Plex.

Digital Music's Ground Control has inputs for 2 expression pedals and can
send continuous controller messages programmable per patch , is this what
you are talking about ?

>Most people do not like the keys of the Oberheim pedal board. I do not use
>it either.

Matthias, what switching system/footswitches etc., do you use for your 'Plex ?

                                 Thanks,  Ed

------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:29:27 -0500
From: Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski, Phd)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: echoplex prices?
Message-Id: <v01520d00aec4f7a6a1e4@[205.216.96.55]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

do any of the echoplex users know what a good price on one is and where to
get it?

thanks, Paul

------------------------------
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 21:29:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Steve Reich & Musicians
Message-Id: <199611300529.VAA18518@pure.PureAtria.COM>

>Especially the dissing Glass bit.  Let's be a little more openminded here,
>folks!!

As the Glass-disser, let me just say that I liked him a lot about 10
years ago.

"It is good to be open minded, but not so open minded that your brain
 falls out of your head." - Carl Sagan

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 05:09:18 -0500 (EST)
From: JOHNPOLLOCK@delphi.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Vortex Alert and formal delurk
Message-id: <01ICG1916VIW971O3I@delphi.com>
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hello,

Just in case someone still wants one, the Guitar Center "December Deal
Days" catalog announces a "Last Chance On Lexicon Price Breakthrough!"
on the Vortex at $149.99.  Presumably, they have enough left to warrant
the catalog space.  They also advertise the DOD DFX94 4-second
sampler/delay stompbox for $120-- can anyone give a real-world review
of this unit?  Is it worth the money?

I've been reading the newsletter and visiting the Web site since Kim
made the announcement in the Digital Guitar Digest.  I'm delurking
now because I feel a flood of questions and comments building up,
and think it only fair to give you an idea who they're coming from.

I'm possibly the oldest reader of this list (still 51, for a few weeks),
and likely one of the newest loop addicts (I got my Vortex three weeks
ago today).  I played music for a living for 15 years, beginning as
a steel guitarist and ending up as a one-person band, driving a pair of
synthesizers with a MIDI guitar and a MIDI pedal keyboard while singing
or playing harmonica.  I "retired" several years ago, after I realized I
dreaded going to work; I'm now beginning to recapture the joy of making
music for its own sake, and for mine.

Rather than burdening the list with details of my gear, I invite anyone
interested to my Troubador Tech Web site (URL in sig), which is devoted
to tools and techniques of possible interest to the solo simultaneous
multiinstrumentalist.  It includes the modest beginning of a page on 
delays and looping, where you can find out how to get four delays of
up to 12 seconds each from a Casio VZ-series synthesizer.  

I'm deeply grateful to everyone who contributes to this project, for
the information and the inspiration.  May all your loops yield happy
surprises!

John                              Email:  johnpollock@delphi.com
Troubador Tech on the Web--http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock/

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 96 08:14:17 EST
From: c62op27@ibx.com (Victor Fiorillo)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: echoplex prices?
Message-Id: <9611301314.AA02688@ibx.com>

Regarding echoplex prices, I think it is important to differentiate between digital and analog.

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:19:00 -0500
From: Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski, Phd)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Steve Reich & Musicians
Message-Id: <v01520d00aec600d50cf7@[205.216.96.74]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>Especially the dissing Glass bit.  Let's be a little more openminded here,
>>folks!!
>
>As the Glass-disser, let me just say that I liked him a lot about 10
>years ago.
>
>"It is good to be open minded, but not so open minded that your brain
> falls out of your head." - Carl Sagan

grow up ray

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:21:05 -0500
From: Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski, Phd)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: echoplex prices?
Message-Id: <v01520d01aec6013b2501@[205.216.96.62]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Regarding echoplex prices, I think it is important to differentiate
>between digital and analog.


I am interested in the digital ... with foot pedal and decent memory

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 17:33:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Ray Peck <rpeck@PureAtria.COM>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Steve Reich & Musicians
Message-Id: <199612010133.RAA07996@pure.PureAtria.COM>

Paul Poplawski, Phd writes:
>>>Especially the dissing Glass bit.  Let's be a little more openminded here,
>>>folks!!
>>
>>As the Glass-disser, let me just say that I liked him a lot about 10
>>years ago.
>>
>>"It is good to be open minded, but not so open minded that your brain
>> falls out of your head." - Carl Sagan
>
>grow up ray


I hope I never do, thanks.

--------------------------------