------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Re: Blowing our own trumpets (was: M [ "Matt McCabe" ] Re: Music Descriptions [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: Music Descriptions [ future perfect ] Re: Music Descriptions [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] re:Re: vortex patches(volunteer) [ SoundFNR@aol.com ] Re: echoplex [ Kim Flint ] Re: looping devices / Akai Remix16 [ Kim Flint ] Re: FS: Boomerang $399 [ james rhodes ] Re: Music Descriptions [ Kim Flint ] Re: Music Descriptions [ "Stephen P. Goodman" ] Re: FS: Boomerang $399 [ "Mikell D. Nelson" ] Re: Music Descriptions [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 13:55:20 -0700 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Blowing our own trumpets (was: Music is best, indeed) Message-Id: <199707012052.NAA12362@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Matthias Grob > A selection of it I sent on a CDR to Ray, to do our Loopers CD. What happened? > > Maybe there could be a label with LOOP CDs out there? The page might be a > strong start for distribution! Shameless plug.....Marathon Records (my "record company on-the-side") is set up to take credit card orders. I'd be happy to carry/sell any LD members' product.....assuming the quality is up to snuff. Check out our web page at: http://www.joshuanet.com/marathon for more info or email me here. Matt mattm@bi-tech.com or marathon@joshuanet.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:50:17 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Arif said: >Unfortunately, retailers put music into the New Age bin when they don't >know where else to put it! If all of us tell them how to call "our" bin, they will create it and fill it! James brought in: >i have always thought that Robert Fripp's "Soundscapes" was a very >appropriate name for music of this type... Appropriate, but not international enough, I think, too dificult word. >my 1st looping project was a collection of pieces,,i entitled " Music to >make you leave the room by",,,that way no one could complain if they stayed.... > >the term "New Age" makes me physically i'll... but i've never hit anyone for >using this term to describe some of the music i do,,,havent even purged my >dinner on their shoes... Hahahaaaa, you are great, James! Here in Northeast Brasil, I have a hard time, because the only music people know that (to them) seams similar to mine is Kitaro and Vangelis and :-( Jarre. No Ambient, no New Age, just "instrumental", together with Gismonti, Hermeto, Vila-Lobos and mandolin music. Recently it got better, since Enya got known,,, but I did not purge any dinners either. Recently, on a public bus trip where they played a tape with those tenor voices in thirds singing about suffering from love and heartattachments, I came up with a tape of mine and they put it in. But at the the first somewhat fatter, harmonically still simple loop, the discussion started and a guy said that he is tortured by such music. I asked where it hurts and he pointed at his forehead. Why? Why did he not suffer with the suffering singers? Then there was no music in the bus any more. What a pity. Matt : >"Ambient Guitar Noise" is my phrase of choice.... Isnt Noise something rather negative? Stephen: >...I end up using words and >phrases like "atmospheric", "soundtrack music", "space music" Me too. "space" I rather avoid, because people are very mystical and want a confirmation that I really am from another planet. How do I know? I also use "clima", I do not know whether it makes sense in english? >"...It must be as ignorable as it is listenable..." > >"...It seeks to enhance its environment, as opposed to Musak, which >blankets it..." Brilliant! I did not know these statements :-( >Ambient Music is at times best defined by what it is NOT. It is not like >an ignored child, prodding you to pay attention to their newest 'trick', >jumping up and down and yelling "listen to THIS!". It is therefore not >something that distracts you from your current tasks-at-hand, whether >pleasurable or otherwise. Also brilliant Is this inherent to looping, or is it just a acidental connection ??? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 19:24:33 -0400 From: future perfect To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-ID: <33B991B1.C26F33BE@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Loopers, First, I must thank you all for everyones imput on my 'Music Descriptions' thread. There's a lot of adjectives out there! There's been a lot of talk about what we, the artists, call our own music. And we know that most retailers would put our recordings in the 'new age' bin. ..And I love to hear what non-musicians/non-ambient musicians think of it. I read a review of the current G3 tour, with Fripp opening with Soundscapes. This was on alt.guitar-its said something like 'This guy Fripp was up there making all these noises, and had us screaming for 'Yanni'. What do these people hear? In any case, I am still faced with a problem when I try to get gigs. I usually play at bookstores/art shows/galleries..and while booking the gig, I'm faced with "What kind of music do you play" by the booking agent for the venue. Now, this "What music do you play" is different than a friend/ fan/ newspaper asking the same thing. If you say 'new age', theres no chance you'll get hired (I've tried it). If you say 'jazz' they expect a night of standards. No one knows what 'ambient' is. And I certainly can't tell them what I think it is..that would take at least 10 minutes! Funny, after I play there, the next time I return (with my guitar synths and e-bows), I'm listed in the Newspaper under 'folk'. Again, what do these people hear? Dave ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 'If you don't know where you're going, you'll probably get there.' - Robert Fripp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 97 18:28:34 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-Id: <199707012325.QAA28074@scv2.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >In any case, I am still faced with a problem when I try to get gigs. I >usually play at bookstores/art shows/galleries..and while booking the >gig, I'm faced with "What kind of music do you play" by the booking >agent for the venue. >Now, this "What music do you play" is different than a friend/ fan/ >newspaper asking the same thing. If you say 'new age', theres no chance >you'll get hired (I've tried it). >If you say 'jazz' they expect a night of standards. No one knows what >'ambient' is. And I certainly can't tell them what I think it is..that >would take at least 10 minutes! > >Funny, after I play there, the next time I return (with my guitar synths >and e-bows), >I'm listed in the Newspaper under 'folk'. > >Again, what do these people hear? I give them a tape. And, I could care less what they call me on a return engagement. If people are showing up and appreciating what I'm doing, they can call it whatever they want. Travis P.S. I always describe it (it even goes on the fliers) as Ambient Improvised Instrumentals, but the booking agents I run into at least pretend they know what Ambient means. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:29:47 -0700 (MST) From: Dan Howarth To: Loopers Delight postings Subject: Re: FS: Boomerang $399 Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII what do these things list for? are they currently available? ** Dan Howarth ** ** Classics-History-Music. University of Arizona, Tucson ** ** http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:11:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: re:Re: vortex patches(volunteer) Message-ID: <970701210904_-727515622@emout15.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 16/06/97 1:35:27, you write: << > If one of you vortex nuts wants to make a page full of patches with > desciptions (or even audio files) for the Looper's Delight web site, by all > means do so! I think a lot of people would be interested in that. Very interested!!! ___________ Michael Peters >> As it happens I'm working on one at the moment. To include pages where patches & morphs can be submitted, and added to a list automatically. Also a list of things that aren't clear in the manual & One inaccuracy in the manual. A graphic so that we can print out a sheet with all the configuration diagrams on it ( anyone got one). I'll get it going as soon as other commitments permit. Any suggestions or input that anyone has would be much appreciated. Andy (UK). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:31:54 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: echoplex Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:31 PM -0400 6/26/97, Squidlyguy@aol.com wrote: > My question is simple, an probably an old one. Where's the best place to >get an Echoplex from? I had the number of a place on the web that was >selling them for around $500 -$550, but can't locate it anymore. Call Oberheim and ask what dealer has them near you. OB's number is 510-635-9633. Bananas at Large often has them... (415)457-7600, www.bananas.com. >Also, have >they worked out some of the bugs that older plex owners often complained >about? There is some rumor that an upgrade will arrive very soon..... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 20:47:04 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping devices / Akai Remix16 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:41 AM -0700 6/28/97, Marc Roche wrote: >Live with mindfullness of all living things ok, I'll try. > BTY what do you think about the Akai >Remix? Is it a good product? Better than the Oberheim? I'm using the >Jamman now and I want to upgrade. Thanks, Ciao, Salaam. I'd like to hear more about the Akai Remix16 from someone who's actually got one. The demo at NAMM was pretty interesting. I know one person on the list actually owns one. Gabriel? Care to give us a review? It seems to me that the akai remix16 is significantly different from the Oberheim echoplex. They both loop, but trying to decide which is better would be very dependant on what you are trying to do. The echoplex is probably more like the jamman than the remix16, so it might seem a little more familiar to you in that regard. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about the akai can tell us more. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:20:25 -0500 (CDT) From: james rhodes To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: FS: Boomerang $399 Message-Id: <199707020520.AAA13703@mail2.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:29 PM 7/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >what do these things list for? are they currently available? cant offer much help, but a few days ago a fellow local looper brought over his and we went into a 30 minute trance (till the phone rang) i use a Jamman and an Echoplex . he used a Boomerang with 4 meg (about 4.4 minutes i think) he said he bought it new with the 4 meg upgrade for $630.00 after shipping...but i dont know what a 1 meg sells for street price...i was impressed with the unit..couldnt tell a BIG difference between all three units,,,i suppose of the three the Echoplex is still my choice...however i have no intentions of selling my Jamman. in my opinion the Boomerang exhibited fine workmanship and is a quality piece of equipment...the switching was nice,once i took off my shoes. my triggering ability is greatly enhanced in sock feet with all three units... overall i liked it i would guess that $399.00 is almost as much as a new 1 meg machine would cost,,but i am not sure. james rhodes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:45:31 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:09 PM -0700 6/30/97, Stephen P. Goodman wrote: >Kim Corbet commented about the use of the word 'jazz' as a label for >ambient material, and I thought I'd add in some marketing/radio history >that coincides. In the Los Angeles area, the radio station playing soft >rock/etc., KTWV ("The Wave") started out in '86-7 billing itself as a kind >of ambient station, playing pieces from Steve Reich, Brian Eno, Philip >Glass, and even on occasion King Crimson pieces in the vein of "Matte >Kudasai"; concurrently I began seeing the Music Plus's and Wherehouse's in >the area sporting a "New Age" section in the places formerly occupied by >labels like "Electronic" and "Experimental". > >For the past year or so, The Wave - perhaps it's called the same thing in >'your' town - has been sporting the term 'soft jazz', which caused me to >think again of this term. Perhaps the term 'jazz' is ethereal and >undefined enough to get away with as an umbrella, but isn't it just a >label, after all? I wonder what true jazz enthusiasts and musicians would >think. Anyone? I think it is called "Quiet Storm" here, but we all know that format, I'm sure. "Music to entertain middle-aged, upper-middle class housewives by" might be the term the record company/radio execs use. (no offense to musically literate middle aged upper middle class housewives intended :-) ) That's the format where Kenny G gets to be a respectable jazz artist. I'm not one to care much about labeling, but I have been listening to and attempting to play jazz for a reasonable length of time. Using that term as an umbrella label to cover anything you like doesn't really work for me. It seems like attaching adjectives to the word "jazz" is the latest rage in the music-genre-labeling field. To me, this always seems like some sort of misguided attempt to attach artistic credibility and sophistication to the music being labeled, and rarely has much to do with any connections the music actually has to the stuff normally called "jazz." Now, I'm hardly qualified to decide what is and is not jazz. But if you are trying to describe your music to me and you use the word "jazz," I will be thinking about musicians like Louis Armstrong, Coleman Hawkins, Duke, Bird, Miles, Coltrane, Monk, Ornette, Pharoah Saunders, Sun Ra, etc., etc.... If you really want me to be thinking along the lines of Glass and Eno, then you are better off using a term like "ambient." And if you are trying to impress me with the fact that you are so cool/artistic/sophisticated that you can combine a few terms not usually placed next to each other as a description of your Incredibly Unique music, which only people as cool/artistic/sophisticated as yourself can possibly understand, at least be creative enough to use something other than "jazz." Everyone else is already using that one. :-) Why not just think up some new descriptive term if you don't like what's available? For example, it wasn't so long ago that there was no music called Industrial. But as soon as someone did label their music Industrial, it was pretty clear what they meant. Something else that slightly disturbs me about this thread is a sort of implicit assumption that all music employing looping somehow fits in this experimental/ambient vein. I think I've said this before, but looping is much more than that. I think of looping more as a musical technique that can easily span many, many genres. Most of those genres already have bins at the record store and radio stations devoted to them, so when one of that genre's artists employs looping, no one really has to think about where it fits. We don't go in the record store expecting to find a section called "drumming," containing all the music with percussion used in it. Why do we hope for a section just for loop based music? I expect to find it anywhere. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:15:02 -0700 From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-Id: <199707020715.AAA29567@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit future perfect said: > In any case, I am still faced with a problem when I try to get gigs. I > usually play at bookstores/art shows/galleries..and while booking the > gig, I'm faced with "What kind of music do you play" by the booking > agent for the venue. Actually, if you look them in the eye, and say "Ambient", then when they ask, say something short and simple as with "You know about 'Techno' or electronic?" [pause] "It's like that, but softer. You can eat to it." Restaurateurs, I suspect, would mostly hear the last sentence, n'est-ce pas? And it's true, too. I wonder if there's an ambient version of Louie Louie in our future? [shudder] What if the club owner who demands it turns out to be the kind of shmoe who thinks Jean Michel Jarre are three French guys? [g] But I digress... Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.primenet.com/~sgoodman/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:57:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mattias Ribbing To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Misc Message-Id: <199707021257.OAA02804@mailbox.swip.net> Content-Type: text/plain Hello. I am new to this list so this is my first post. I am a (midi)guitarist who is a big fan of Fripp/King Crimson. I am not a looping artist (yet), but I plan to buy some loopingequipment when I have the money. I find the Loopers Delight page very good but I think there is one thing missing to it: "An Introduction To Looping". That would be a page where the basics of looping are described and where common questions from from people who don�t know so much about looping are answered. As a potential buyer of such an expensive device there are lots of things you want to know. If anyone would make such a page I am willing to help out since I am new to this and have lots of questions (that I guess have been answered over and over again on this list). Later, Mattias Ribbing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:56:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Fmplautus@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: FS: Boomerang $399 Message-ID: <970702115602_-393750100@emout02.mail.aol.com> Guitar Center in San Francisco is selling Boomerangs for $399 with 1 meg. Ask for Khan (he knows them well). The LoOpDoctOrs too, finally had an opportunity to play with a Boomerang. We were mightily impressed. Of the big three, the best foot interface...period. Our toes were laughing. Best, The LoOpDoctOrs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 09:16:47 -0700 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-Id: <199707021614.JAA25996@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Matthias Grob > Matt : > >"Ambient Guitar Noise" is my phrase of choice.... > > Isnt Noise something rather negative? Interestingly, I've never thought of noise (in this context) as being entirely negative. Then again, ever since I discovered my dad's old reel-to-reel and began experimenting with loops (many, many years ago) I've been captivated by noise (aka sound). I think the term "Ambient Guitar Noise" is extremely descriptive of what I do. Not only does it point out the instrument of origin, but it illustrates the dichotomy of textures that one could experience while listening to my performance/tape......"ambient" being on the quiet/peaceful end of the spectrum and "noise" being on the more aggressive/chaotic end of the spectrum. And it never fails to cause people to stop and think...if only for a second. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 12:16:08 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: FS: Boomerang $399 Message-ID: <33BA8CD8.1A4@dmans.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Howarth wrote: > > what do these things list for? are they currently available? > > ** Dan Howarth ** > ** Classics-History-Music. University of Arizona, Tucson ** > ** http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth ** Dan, The 1M Boomerang Phrase Sampler lists for $459, but the 'street' price seems to be $359-$399. Talk to Rainbow Guitars in Tucson; I believe they have 'Rangs in stock now. Motley a.k.a Mike Nelson, co-owner Boomerang Musical Products ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 12:48:25 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Misc Message-ID: <33BA9469.2DC9@dmans.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mattias Ribbing wrote: > > Hello. > > I am new to this list so this is my first post. I find the Loopers > Delight page very good but I think there is one thing missing to it: "An > Introduction To Looping". Mattias, From time to time people describe their equipment and how they use it; also they describe their music and their approach to creating it. You won't see these kinds of posts on a regular basis because they have been done. However, I'm sure most people on this list would share their ideas if you just ask. Here's my two bits. I'm probably one of the more traditional loopers present and use my Boomerang Phrase Sampler to build fairly traditional pop instrumentals for solo electric guitar. I'll describe the first song in my set, tentatively titled "If a man fell in the forest, would the trees really care." I mute the Rang so the audience can't hear my playing, then strike a chord and let it ring for 15 seconds while recording. Unmute, play the chord in reverse using the ONCE button, and I get a cool reverse swell. At the peak/end of the swell I start playing a small intro that leads into the song's progression. Record the progression and play the melodic parts of the song over the basic loop. At the end of the song I add/layer the characteristic melody to the loop, then add 2 more sparse parts. Now the audience is hearing 4 parts play through the verse. I then play a fifth part, a muted arpeggiated thing. At first the fifth part is down in the mix, but I gradually fade the loop using the volume roller on the Rang so the muted part is exposed. When it is all that is heard, I retard and end. Hope this sheds a little light on how a person can have a meaningful relationship with a looping device. Motley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 12:54:02 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Tubeology Message-ID: <33BA95BA.7A8A@dmans.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the responses to my amp question. Motley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:30:27 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Speaking of categorization... I help out at a local CD store, Happy Trails Records, Corvallis' only hip record store. I worked there for years, and now I help keeping the jazz, ethnic, and electronic sections stocked with cool stuff. Anyway, I was there the other day going through the new releases bulletin from Valley Music, our main distributor. Evidently, they just picked up Jon Durant's Alchemy Label, as I noticed most of their titles were lested as new releases. What was interesting was how they were categorized: Gary Willis was in jazz, Caryn Lin and Brian Gingrich in New Age, and Robby Aceto in Rock/Pop. Just thought this was interesting... ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 11:43:57 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Misc/intro page Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain At 2:57 PM +0200 7/2/97, Mattias Ribbing wrote: > I find the Loopers >Delight page very good but I think there is one thing missing to it: "An >Introduction To Looping". That would be a page where the basics of looping >are described and where common questions from from people who don�t know so >much about looping are answered. As a potential buyer of such an expensive >device there are lots of things you want to know. If anyone would make such >a page I am willing to help out since I am new to this and have lots of >questions (that I guess have been answered over and over again on this list). That's a good idea. We definitely need something like that. Anyone want to contribute to it? I think your way of helping would be great, actually. Since you are a beginner, you know the questions. Those of us that have been doing this for a while might know some of the answers, and probably don't know the critical questions so much anymore. (although we might be fools to think we don't need to ask them again.) Go ahead and ask the questions you have, and with some answers from different people we can make the Intro page. thanks kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:21:44 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Music Descriptions Message-ID: <970702152100_225431230@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 7/1/97 11:15:17 PM, you wrote: <> Matthias, this is such a great story! I'm amazed that you can pop a tape in on a public bus at all. I can't even imagine this in the US. The Suffering Singers. That's a good name for a band. "I suffered for my music, now it's your turn." ( Frank Zappa) Jim --------------------------------