------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 112

Today's Topics:
  MIDI looping                          [ buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barre ]
  Re: Pet the Shower Stall              [ "Bob Brink" <bobbrink@mcs.com> ]
  RE: The Echoplex upgrade arrives!     [ Michael Peters <MPeters@compuserve. ]
  Re: Let The Power Fall - EMS          [ "Kim G. Hansen" <kimgh@inet.uni-c.d ]
  Re: Age...?                           [ Dan Howarth <howarth@U.Arizona.EDU> ]
  Re: MIDI looping                      [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ]
  Re: Let The Power Fall - EMS          [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pyc ]
  Re: The Echoplex upgrade arrives!     [ Leonardo Cavallo <LEO@DINONET.IT> ]
  RE: Let The Power Fall - EMS          [ "Ott, John" <John_Ott@ATK.COM> ]
  Re: A couple of Responses             [ Dpcoffin@aol.com ]
  Re: RE: Let The Power Fall - EMS      [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ]
  Re: A couple of Responses             [ KelRey@aol.com ]
  Re: Unidentified subject!             [ "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.c ]
  Re: A couple of Responses             [ "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.c ]
  Re: A couple of Responses             [ Dpcoffin@aol.com ]
  Re: A couple of Responses             [ Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com> ]
  Age etc.                              [ Warren Sirota <wsirota@wsdesigns.co ]
  Re: MIDI looping                      [ Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com> ]
  Re: The Echoplex upgrade arrives!     [ Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com> ]

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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:18:50 -0400
From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett)
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: MIDI looping
Message-Id: <199707130418.AA07233@world.std.com>

Wow.  I just found this list, and it's amazing to discover
not only so many people involved in looping, but even several
effects processors dedicated to it.

Just a year ago, I mentioned to a friend, "I wish there
was some kind of digital delay where you could record a loop,
then set it aside and record another one, and then switch back
to the first, and then overdub, but why would anyone bother
manufacturing something nobody else would want?"

Foolish me.

Ok, anyway.  I have three big questions, but I'll give
them time to breathe, so let's start with the first only.

MIDI looping.

I've checked all of the '97 archives (although there's
no June, so maybe you've all talked it to death last month),
and the only mention of MIDI looping I saw was discussion
of the Cyclone (which sounds a bit more like sequencing/
arpeggiation tech, although I can see how they become similar),
and one person mentioned he was writing custom software.

So what's the deal?  Does nobody on this list do MIDI looping?
Is there simply no good technology to carry it out?  Are
people talking about it on some synth mailing list?  Or is
it just that audio looping is so much cooler because guitars
(or accordians or trombones or voice) can do much cooler things,
and MIDI isn't expressive enough?  Or vice versa, that synths
are already powerful enough instruments that they don't need
the crutch of delay technology before they become interesting
solo performance instruments.  (Hey, I'm a guitarist myself,
I'm just getting the theories on the table, not advocating
them.)  Or is the list full of MIDI loopers who are just
keeping quiet?

I first experimented with MIDI looping in '87 or so (to
answer that age question, I was 20 at the time).  I took
my friend's Atari ST, wrote a BASIC program to do MIDI
looping, mapped program changes from the input to output
channel routing (so from one synth you could loop multiple
different timbres), and my keyboardist friend used it to
create backing textures for my pointless guitar solos.

Then, because I was a guitarist, I forgot all about it.
Then, as I said, I got the idea for this cool looping
technology, but I figured it didn't exist.  So then I
was looking for other ways to expand my instrumentality,
so I'm getting a guitar synth.  And then I figured, hey,
MIDI looping should be a lot simpler than digital looping,
maybe I could do that.  A search on the web, and here I
am--nobody anywhere seems to be talking about MIDI looping.
(I'm not doing it myself--but I want to be.)

Oh, duh, a quick definition in case anyone can't guess
(or if MIDI loop is a common term for something else):
a MIDI looper is like an audio looper.  You play in a
sound source througha a MIDI in, and on the MIDI-out
it plays the notes of the loop.  Basically it just passes
through the notes you play, and then plays them again after
a delay, etc.

Here are some of the obvious issues I've thought of for
MIDI looping:
  con: no effects in the feedback path
   but: most people don't use their loopers that way anyway
  pro: actually, you can pitch shift and bounce notes between several
       instruments during feedback
  pro: easy to have multiple different speed loops (in terms of internal
       implementation--user interface still a nightmare); even do odd things
       like every pitch gets its own loop length
  con: requires MIDI input
  con: MIDI guitar with pitch bends requires one MIDI channel per note,
       which will get eaten up really quickly when you layer a loop
  con: another MIDI delay in your signal path
   but: you can use your performance synth (e.g. guitar synth or keyboard)
       to provide the initial tone, and then the extra MIDI delay can
       be compensated for by reducing the first iteration's delay time
   but but: now you need another sounds source with very similar sounds
       to your initial sounds
  pro: requires much less RAM; infinite UNDO is plausible
  con: probably harder to create the software for
  pro: probably requires much less CPU crunching power
  pro: you can "record" your performance into a sequencer,
       storing the notes you played & MIDI patch changes or
       such that changed the looper's performance--then just
       play the sequence out into the MIDI looper to repeat it.
       Now you can edit your performance.
  con: drops out notes if the layers get too thick
   but: get more sound sources to avoid this (and possibly multiple
       MIDI outs on the looper to get more channels with distinct
       pitch bends).  Also, audio looper must distort or clamp
       or compress if the total audio volume gets too thick (different
       but similar sort of problem)
  
Well, I could go on and on (well, I guess I already have), but
I'm interested to hear some comments before I go too far over
the top with it.

(I'm pretty sure there are some existing MIDI "multiplexers" with
some kind of MIDI delay features, but it seems the dedicated digital
audio loopers have obvious performance features for doing all sorts
of things a pure "delay" won't have, and I doubt such multiplexers
implement a delay which deals correctly with pitch-bent notes, thus
making not too useful.  But I'd be just as happy to be proven wrong,
as the Echoplex and JamMan have already done in the digitial audio
dimension.)

Sean Barrett
computer game programming: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/7788

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 23:44:04 -0500
From: "Bob Brink" <bobbrink@mcs.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Pet the Shower Stall
Message-Id: <199707130444.XAA03426@Mailbox.mcs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

please remove  benvance@ipahome.com  from the list.
E-mail box is no longer valid.
thanks,

----------
> From: future perfect <artmusic@gte.net>
> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Subject: Pet the Shower Stall
> Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 12:47 AM
> 
> > 
> > Any other indulgent Fripp "Tribute" recordings out there? Anyone ever
tried
> > to fool their friends with one, and gotten away with it? (I have,
though I'm
> > not entirely sure how)!
>  
> I recorded one a few years ago called 'Continue..As If Nothing
> Happened'.
> It was 20 minutes of me playing with a 25 second reverb, with no direct
> signal. I overdubbed an insanely distorted Ebow on the top, and actually
> fooled a few of my friends.
> Dave
> -- 
> ********************************************************************* 
> 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at:
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 
> 'If you don't know where you're going, 
> you'll probably get there.' - Robert Fripp
> 

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 04:56:44 -0400
From: Michael Peters <MPeters@compuserve.com>
To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: The Echoplex upgrade arrives!
Message-ID: <199707130456_MC2-1ABC-7B9D@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline

the one thing that interests me most about the new Echoplex is:

Will it carry the CE stamp necessary to import it to Europe, or not? 

If Gibson are really dedicated to this new product, they will spend the
money and energy to get a CE stamp ... if not, we'd have to import it
ourselves, illegally ... 
___________
Michael Peters   
        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters
HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want"
        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm
Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund
        http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:50:04 -0700
From: "Kim G. Hansen" <kimgh@inet.uni-c.dk>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Let The Power Fall - EMS
Message-ID: <33C9235C.5B0D@inet.uni-c.dk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

BlkSwan03@aol.com wrote:
> 
> 
> Actually, the company is called EMS (Electronic Music Systems) and is/was an
> English company.  They made a few different products, but none in huge
> quantities.. "SNIP" .. I believe there are
> people that do this,
> some associated with EMS,  but I've not been able to get anyone to answer
> their phone or return messages.  Not much of a confidence builder. If anyone
> out there has experience with any shops that know how to repair these, let me
> know.  EMS  still operates in England.

Go here: 

http://www.hinton.demon.co.uk/ems/ems.html

Best, - Kim G.

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:57:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Dan Howarth <howarth@U.Arizona.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Age...?
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.970713025725.46268A-100000@aruba.u.arizona.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> >      Warren Sirota Wrote
> >      
> >      >  is anyone on this list under 25?
> 
> 23 as of this past Thursday...
> 
> --Andre

finally 21 in only three months.

**  Dan Howarth <howarth@u.arizona.edu>                       **
**  Classics-History-Music.  University of Arizona, Tucson    **
**  http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth 		              **

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: BlkSwan03@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: MIDI looping
Message-ID: <970713064528_-1326065530@emout19.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 7/13/97 9:56:07 AM, you wrote:

<<So what's the deal?  Does nobody on this list do MIDI looping?>>

Uh,....rather a heavy handed post I dare say.  I do Midi looping, and I've
mentioned it before on this list but it's a desert out there as far as this
goes.  There aren't many people doing it.  Also, it's mostly guitarists on
this list.  (Not putting it down at all, I play guitar too.)   Anyway, it
doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.  I don't know what your equipment
setup is like, but you made midi looping seem ultra complicated.  It isn't
for me.   I use a Roland MV30 sequencer running a JV 1080 synth.  Also I can
add other modules as well if I need to.   You just set the MV30 to loop and
decide how many measures you want it to be.   You can be under of course, but
not over.  Just get rid of unused measures.   Put the 1080 in Performance
mode (multi) and go.  Just change midi channels on master keyboard.   It
couldn't be much simpler.  Voices on the 1080 can be effected differently ,
panned, and mixed.  If you need more extreme effects, send the voice out of
independent outs (there are six) and effect away.   I always get interesting
results with this.   Also, my girfriends'  Roland XP80 is setup very similar.
 Very easy to loop this way.  No time constraints and excellent sound quality
with many open options afterwards.

                               Jim  

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:32:32 +0100
From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Let The Power Fall - EMS
Message-Id: <20520.199707131232@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>> Actually, the company is called EMS (Electronic Music Systems) and is/was an
>> English company.  They made a few different products, but none in huge
>> quantities.. 

For those hip enough to own a copy...  :)
....the whole of On The Run (from Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon) was
done in one take by Dave Gilmour and a Synthi.  Speech recordings were
added later.

Aparently there's a patch on the Kurzweil K2000 that plays the whole of On
The Run, perhaps unsurprising since PF's Rick Wright uses the K2000 on
tour.

Michael   

/-------------------------------------------------------------------\
|Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes | Tel:0141 330 5979 | Fax: 0141 330 4907 |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Bioelectronics, Rankine Bldg, Glasgow University, Glasgow, G12 8QQ |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  http://www.elec.gla.ac.uk/groups/bio/Electrokinetics/main.html   |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------/

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:52:02 +0200
From: Leonardo Cavallo <LEO@DINONET.IT>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: The Echoplex upgrade arrives!
Message-ID: <19970713145201500.AAA211@Default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 17.32 12/07/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>At the NAMM show in Nashville this weekend, Oberheim is announcing a new
>software version for the Echoplex Digital Pro. It's called LoopIII V5.0,
>and will be shipping this month in new units and as upgrades for existing
>Echoplex owners. There are many, many improvements and enhancements over
>LoopIII V3.2, which has been shipping in the Echoplex for over two and a
>half years now. Many of you have been waiting a long time for this; the
>wait is finally over!
>
>I'm not sure what Oberheim's upgrade policy will be for this version, you
>should contact Oberheim or an Oberheim dealer for details.
>

Hi kim, Matthias and all at Aurisis Research

great work for the upgrade. It seems a lot of work involved.
I just ordered my plex through a local music store some weeks ago but there
are some delays importing the unit from USA to Florence, Italy. Well, I hope
delays are due to shipping the new software version... 
What do you think? Is it possible?
Any hope to receive the upgrade? 
And do you know how long we've to wait to see distributed the new ones?
And there will be a change in price?
A curiosity: only the software has been changed or the hardware too?

thanks 

25 years old Leo

P.S. Some other italian on the list???

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:20:54 -0400
From: "Ott, John" <John_Ott@ATK.COM>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Let The Power Fall - EMS
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=ATK%l=EXCHANGE_WV1-970713172054Z-2470@exchange_wv1.ATK.COM>

>------quote----
>From: 	pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk
>Reply To: 	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>
>For those hip enough to own a copy...  :)
>....the whole of On The Run (from Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon) was
>done in one take by Dave Gilmour and a Synthi.  Speech recordings were
>added later.

      -------end quote----

My copy of Pink Floyd "Live Pompeii" which includes film of the 
"Dark Side of the Moon" Sessions show Roger Waters playing
the Track.  

later
>John
>

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:48:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dpcoffin@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: A couple of Responses
Message-ID: <970713144840_-1460525909@emout02.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 7/13/97 8:14:15 AM, Randy wrote:

<<one is older
than me here!!!>>
Sorry...I'm 49
dpc

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:50:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: BlkSwan03@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: RE: Let The Power Fall - EMS
Message-ID: <970713145024_1546278985@emout01.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 7/13/97 5:23:32 PM, you wrote:

<<My copy of Pink Floyd "Live Pompeii" which includes film of the 
"Dark Side of the Moon" Sessions show Roger Waters playing
the Track.  
>>

With not one but two AKS's.   Sorry I left them out.  Didn't mean to.  I
think they had been messing with EMS stuff for a bit before "Dark Side".
  Roger's  "Several Species of
Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving With A Pict"
(which I assume everyone on this list is familiar with-off of "Ummagumma".)
 is done with vocals but I think it was set up with the AKS and the vocal
parts were added on top.  The reason I think that is because I once got the
very same type of rythymic chant kind of sound off the AKS.  It was very
weird and another example of the unique qualities of this synth.

                             Jim  (Portland, OR)

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:10:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: KelRey@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: A couple of Responses
Message-ID: <970713161000_-1191775735@emout08.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 7/13/97 2:34:41 PM, you wrote:

<<In a message dated 7/13/97 8:14:15 AM, Randy wrote:

<<one is older
than me here!!!>>
Sorry...I'm 49
dpc
>>

Sorry dpc,

I'm 52
Kelly

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 15:49:48 -0500
From: "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Unidentified subject!
Message-ID: <33C93F6C.7B2A@dmans.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Mario De Bock wrote:
> I got the following address : http://www.netbutler.com/boomerang
> 
> It would be nice to have some feedback from guitar players who are using
> the 'Boomerang'.
> >From the description on the web page it looks very nice!
> 
> Mario.

  I use the 'Rang and love it, but here are some other folks who use the
Boomerang Phrase Sampler:
Victor Wooten - bassist extraordinaire; plays with Bela Fleck & the
Flecktones and solo
Jake E. Lee - rock guitarist; played with Ozzie Osborne; now solo
Howard Leese (sp) - guitarist for Hart
Vernon Reid - rock/pop guitarist; played with In Living Color; now solo
Matthew Sweet - rock guitarist/singer
Trey Gunn - plays Warr guitar with King Crimson
Henry Kaiser - west coast avant-garde guitarist
Axl Rose - singer for Guns and Roses
Christian Rover - German jazz/fusion guitarist
Bill Forth - heavy, avant-garde guitarist; released a CD on Robert
Frippās label
Matthew Henderson - avant-garde guitarist; the lead singer in his band
is Mary Pastorius, Jaco's daughter
Jerry McPherson - plays with Amy Grant and is Nashville session player
William Owsley - plays with Shania Twain
Steve Bargonetti - versatile New York player who composes for TV and
theater
Rick Brannon - has 3 or 4 CDās out as Rick Brannon & Electric Detective
- Hollywood hotshot
Michael Scott - guitar player for TAFKA Prince; has recorded with Janet
Jackson, Gladys Knight, Rod Stewart, & Lionel Richie
Rob Wasserman - highly respected bass player, currently touring with
with Bob Weir (June 97) 
Daniel Lanois - guitarist, composer, producer - created the soundtrack
for the movie Sling Blade

Motley a.k.a. Mike Nelson, co-owner Boomerang Musical Products

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:49:42 -0500
From: "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: A couple of Responses
Message-ID: <33C94D76.4B11@dmans.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

KelRey@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 7/13/97 2:34:41 PM, you wrote:
> 
> <<In a message dated 7/13/97 8:14:15 AM, Randy wrote:
> 
> <<one is older
> than me here!!!>>
> Sorry...I'm 49
> dpc
> >>
> 
> Sorry dpc,
> 
> I'm 52
> Kelly

Sorry, Kelly, sometimes I feel 53 or even 54.
Motley

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:31:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dpcoffin@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: A couple of Responses
Message-ID: <970713193157_982616948@emout20.mail.aol.com>

<<Sorry dpc,

I'm 52
Kelly>>

Jeez, geezer, that's a relief!

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 16:39:39 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: A couple of Responses
Message-Id: <v03102801afef1747ae81@[207.171.196.140]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>KelRey@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 7/13/97 2:34:41 PM, you wrote:
>>
>> <<In a message dated 7/13/97 8:14:15 AM, Randy wrote:
>>
>> <<one is older
>> than me here!!!>>
>> Sorry...I'm 49
>> dpc
>> >>
>>
>> Sorry dpc,
>>
>> I'm 52
>> Kelly
>
>Sorry, Kelly, sometimes I feel 53 or even 54.
>Motley
>
 55, 55, do I hear 55?

For that matter, we've heard 15, do we have 14?

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:14:46 -0700
From: Warren Sirota <wsirota@wsdesigns.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Age etc.
Message-ID: <33C96F72.9582D651@wsdesigns.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello again,

Well, it was interesting to see all the age checks. I guess I was
laboring under some misconceptions.

I found Kim's comment interesting:

> The discussion about "What do we call it" is certainly interesting,
> but I
> think the "it" in question is not the whole of "loop music" but just
> the
> "ambient-experimental improvisations employing loops" category. "Loop
> music" includes a lot of other music, some of which even has well
> recognized names and well known and populated venues for its
> performance!

Fair enough. I was basically talking about non-danceable loop music in
an abstract vein.

All I was trying to do was make a couple of small points, but I see that
my general tongue-in-cheekness muddied the message for some. Here's the
careful summary of my assertions (note from legal dept: any of which may
be wrong):

1. Dance music is functionally (in terms of societal function) different
than other types of music (and rock music is nothing new in that
regard).
2. In today's market and general musical consciousness, most of the
opportunities for having music heard and appreciated go to danceable
music.
3. If you're not making dance music, and you still want an audience,
then you must accept #2 or find the courage to change it.
(Here's where it gets dicey...)
4. Most people who go out to clubs are younger people, because most old
fogies like myself have a lot of trouble getting the families (or even
ourselves) out of the house in the evening - we're too busy, too tired,
too lazy, too jaded, too whatever.
5. Maybe there's hope for us (note from legal dept: people like *me*,
not necessarily people like "us", whoever "we" are)  yet and something
can be done about #4, like creating and publicizing something new that
might get us out of the house once in a while. Probably not, though.

Anyway, it's good to be reminded that you don't have to be an aging
techno-hippie to be into this stuff.

And congratulations, Kim, Matthias, et. al. on your latest achievement!
Many wishes for success.

--
Yours truly,
Warren Sirota
Windows musicians: learn songs and solos from any audio CD:
http://wsdesigns.com/presto/

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:53:27 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: MIDI looping
Message-Id: <v03102803afef1c6de4bb@[207.171.196.205]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Just a year ago, I mentioned to a friend, "I wish there
>was some kind of digital delay where you could record a loop,
>then set it aside and record another one, and then switch back
>to the first, and then overdub, but why would anyone bother
>manufacturing something nobody else would want?"

The manufacturers often ask themselves that question after trying it for a
while, usually with unfortunate results.......:-)


>MIDI looping.
>

>So what's the deal?  Does nobody on this list do MIDI looping?
>Is there simply no good technology to carry it out?  Are
>people talking about it on some synth mailing list?

Like Jim mentioned, a lot of simple sequencers to a primitive sort of
looping. I know my old alesis drum machine has it's record mode, which
basically loops over the length you have set. Anything you play gets added
to the loop. Not much you can do to it once it's in there, though. I never
did manage to record drum sequences this way with any success, although it
was great for the "happy accident" method of composing. Somehow it's never
occured to me to experiment with that just for looping.

Other than that I would suggest using Max, which is a
graphical/object-oriented midi programming environment for the mac. It's a
great tool, created at IRCAM in France and sold by Opcode. I think the
sample applications that max even comes with even includes a midi delay and
a looper. I think it would be fairly easy to create a powerful midi looping
application with max. You could even design a nice big, custom gui. I'd be
surprised if someone hadn't already done this, actually.

>Or is
>it just that audio looping is so much cooler because guitars
>(or accordians or trombones or voice) can do much cooler things,
>and MIDI isn't expressive enough?

well, there is that....:-)

My experiences with demoing in the oberheim booth is that midi/synth people
don't quite grasp the possibilites of audio looping when the demo is done
with synth sounds. They assume it's done with midi somehow. And so many of
them are accustomed to creating on sequencers in a rather methodical way,
that the real-time performance possibilities aren't very interesting to
them. They think, "well why don't I just make sequences first and then loop
the one I want later when I need it?" If that's what they are used to, then
the idea of creating the sequence live may not be very interesting. The
idea that you could have that process of creating a sequence actually BE
the performance, and that manipulating that sequence in a wide variety of
ways as it plays might be musically interesting, is wide open territory.

Analog synth enthusiasts are a different breed of course, the idea of
tweaking filter knobs and looping the resulting sound is interesting there.

Guitarist and dj's seem to grasp looping immediately because they often
have the burden of juggling multiple parts of the music at once, and
looping is a great help. Being able to loop a break beat/rhythm guitar
part/whatever is immediately appealing. It gives you freedom to do another
thing while the loop is going. (play a solo, play a different rhythm part,
cue up another track, drink more beer)  From that entry point the artistic
possibilities inherent to looping become more apparent.

>Or vice versa, that synths
>are already powerful enough instruments that they don't need
>the crutch of delay technology before they become interesting
>solo performance instruments.  (Hey, I'm a guitarist myself,
>I'm just getting the theories on the table, not advocating
>them.)

crutch? ah-hem....


>so I'm getting a guitar synth.  And then I figured, hey,
>MIDI looping should be a lot simpler than digital looping,
>maybe I could do that.  A search on the web, and here I
>am--nobody anywhere seems to be talking about MIDI looping.
>(I'm not doing it myself--but I want to be.)

It does seem like a pretty obvious use of midi to me. And you seem to be
right, there aren't really any good tools that I know of for real-time midi
looping. Plenty for non-real-time, of course. It would be interesting to
hear from people who have cobbled together midi looping setups.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:13:15 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: The Echoplex upgrade arrives!
Message-Id: <v03102805afef2c6ea755@[207.171.196.205]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 4:52 PM +0200 7/13/97, Leonardo Cavallo wrote:

>
>great work for the upgrade. It seems a lot of work involved.
>I just ordered my plex through a local music store some weeks ago but there
>are some delays importing the unit from USA to Florence, Italy. Well, I hope
>delays are due to shipping the new software version...
>What do you think? Is it possible?

I think delays are due to getting production going again after it all but
stopped. They are shipping a lot of units this month, and I think quite a
few are heading for Italy. Those will all have the new upgrade.

>Any hope to receive the upgrade?

yes, it should be in new units shipping this month.

>And do you know how long we've to wait to see distributed the new ones?
>And there will be a change in price?

You have to ask Oberheim those questions, I don't know.

>A curiosity: only the software has been changed or the hardware too?

just software.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

--------------------------------