------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:
  RE: Recommended Listening             [ Leonardo Cavallo <LEO@DINONET.IT> ]
  Re: RE: Hard disk recording/looping   [ KelRey@aol.com ]
  Re: MIDI looping                      [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Re: MIDI looping                      [ buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barre ]
  MIDI Looping                          [ Warren Sirota <wsirota@wsdesigns.co ]
  Paul Dresher                          [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.cal ]
  Re: Paul Dresher                      [ Dan Trueman <dan@silvertone.Princet ]
  Re: Midi looping                      [ "Paolo Valladolid" <pvallado@waynes ]
  MAX/ MIDI Looping                     [ Doug Michael <dmic27@ccnet.com> ]
  Re: MIDI Looping/Dresher              [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ]

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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:41:56 +0200
From: Leonardo Cavallo <LEO@DINONET.IT>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: Recommended Listening
Message-ID: <19970719084155000.AAA189@Default>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all

As a musical journalist I reviewed the other night a concert by Jungle Funk.

The lineup is:

Vinx - vocal and percussion 
Doug Wimbish - bass and vocal
Will Calhoun - drums and acustic and electronic percussion

These are 3 incredible musician capable to play an entire set (2h 1/2)
without every other instrument. 

The secret of the success relied in their incredible musicianship and talent
(Vinx incredible singer and ethno african percussionist, Will e Doug, ex
Living Colours, was not only playing the rhythm section but a lot more,
especially Doug, a bass that sounded like a guitar, like a sampler, a
keyboard or drums with a ton of effects at his feet) but in looping too!!!
(here's the point!!!)

It was a Great example of how to use effectively the loopers (in their case
3 jamman, one for each musicians) to create a huge sound and multiple layers
or parts to play with. What impressed me more was not the simple solo
approach: record a rythm track then solo over. The greatness of their loop
use was in building songs around the loop, all in real time. Vocal included!!!

great show. If you like a brillant mix of soul and blues vocal, funk rhythm
section, a little rock, some electronic stuff and a lot of intelligent
looping check them out. Their live set is heavily based on loops. I can't
assure on record (scheduled for next autumn for some Polygram sublabel).

ciao
leo

PS. Oberheim upgrade stuff: Pat Murphy from Gibson said this:

>>Leo
The Echoplexes being sent out next month in Europe will have the upgrade.
thanks
Pat Murphy<<

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 07:56:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: KelRey@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: RE: Hard disk recording/looping
Message-ID: <970719075624_1758718932@emout19.mail.aol.com>

I have been setting up loops from Studio Vision Opcode sequencer to an EMU
Darwin Hard Disk recorder using the Midi Machine Control window in Studio
Vision. It works great. I have a gig hard drive in the Darwin so I have way
more loop time then I ever use.  

Kelly

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:32:03 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: MIDI looping
Message-Id: <v01520d01aff67d40b7b2@[200.254.32.154]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sean Barrett made a strong contribution:

>... And then I figured, hey,
>MIDI looping should be a lot simpler than digital looping,
>maybe I could do that.  A search on the web, and here I
>am--nobody anywhere seems to be talking about MIDI looping.
>(I'm not doing it myself--but I want to be.)

Go ahead. I am amazed, too, that the easyer version did not come out first,
and why the sequencer that is about as old as the delay did not develop in
this same specific direction it originally was used for...

This is a nice document you created. I deserves a space on the LD page, I think!
Others may add to it.
I liked Robert Carter practical contributions, too!

>Here are some of the obvious issues I've thought of for
>MIDI looping:
>  con: no effects in the feedback path
>   but: most people don't use their loopers that way anyway

Right: The available dedicated Looping devices dont let you insert in the
feedback path either. The delays like PCM42 and t.c.2290 have it, because
they do the feedback all analog, which is not very sutable for looping in
other ways.

>  con: another MIDI delay in your signal path
>   but: you can use your performance synth (e.g. guitar synth or keyboard)
>       to provide the initial tone, and then the extra MIDI delay can
>       be compensated for by reducing the first iteration's delay time
>   but but: now you need another sounds source with very similar sounds
>       to your initial sounds

hm... there is no way you can merge the the two contol signals?

>  pro: requires much less RAM; infinite UNDO is plausible

... and organization is several tracks is simple.

>  con: probably harder to create the software for

No, I do not think so.

>  pro: probably requires much less CPU crunching power
>  pro: you can "record" your performance into a sequencer,
>       storing the notes you played & MIDI patch changes or
>       such that changed the looper's performance--then just
>       play the sequence out into the MIDI looper to repeat it.
>       Now you can edit your performance.
>  con: drops out notes if the layers get too thick
>   but: get more sound sources to avoid this (and possibly multiple
>       MIDI outs on the looper to get more channels with distinct
>       pitch bends).  Also, audio looper must distort or clamp
>       or compress if the total audio volume gets too thick (different
>       but similar sort of problem)
Most important con:
        There is no easy way to simulate feedback and let the notes fade
and leave them behind at a certain point. But it should be possible.
But a lot of kinds of loop music do not need the feedback feature.
and pro: You can create programs that for example repeat each input exactly
4 times (at same volume) or more complex patterns like repeat twice / wait
6 / play twice, softer...

>Well, I could go on and on (well, I guess I already have), but
>I'm interested to hear some comments before I go too far over
>the top with it.

Go on and on and do it!
Then keep in mind, that the real success you will have if you can connect
the result to a HD sound edit program.

Consider also to make it compatible with the existing looping devices to
simplify operation and synchronization. I imagine that you will want to
loop the guitar sound in a Plex for example and simultaneously the synth
sound in MIDI and control all with a pedal board.
In addition you might have a key for each channel, beeing that the Plex
would be one of the channels.
I can give you some information about the functions and we might come up
with some new features to make the two ideas compatible.

I could even imagine a unit that looks about like the Plex, but cost a lot
less for doing the same only in MIDI.

Thank you for this work!
Matthias

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:54:04 -0400
From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: MIDI looping
Message-Id: <199707191854.AA16455@world.std.com>

Sorry if this is getting too geeky for any of you...

>Most important con:
>        There is no easy way to simulate feedback and let the notes fade
>and leave them behind at a certain point. But it should be possible.
>But a lot of kinds of loop music do not need the feedback feature.

Well, the way I did this before, which I assume is reasonable, is
to treat note-on velocity as "volume", and decay that as your feedback.
You have to be using patches that do translate volume this way, plus
you get the ability to have notes do other things (like have filters
clamp down) as the notes fade out.

You can drop a note out when it's gotten to a certain velocity, or
you can drop them after a certain number of generations.

>>  con: no effects in the feedback path
>>   but: most people don't use their loopers that way anyway
>
>Right: The available dedicated Looping devices dont let you insert in the
>feedback path either. The delays like PCM42 and t.c.2290 have it, because
>they do the feedback all analog, which is not very sutable for looping in
>other ways.

Well, I've started specing a design for a performance-oriented
MIDI looper, and one thing I've discovered is that there is an
_enormous_ number of special effects you can do by processing
the notes during feedback.  Now, it is _totally questionable_
how useful these effects are; much like getting a guitar multi-FX
box and playing the pre-programmed patches, and finding them useless,
if you got a MIDI looper and just wanted it to loop, then you're not
necessarilly going to want these sorts of things--rather, they
would motivate certain compositions, and thus might only be useful
for one planned-out piece:

- every loop, transpose up a fourth (or any interval)--of course,
  any non-looped music needs to follow along, or it becomes dissonant

- apply a "smart harmony" (which stays in a single key) to transpose up
  some interval, so now the non-looped music doesn't need to slave to it

- use slightly different delay length for every pitch, so a chord
  spreads out over time each delay

- rather than having a volume reduction in feedback, make the delay
  time get longer and longer _per note_, so maybe each note echoes
  after 4s, 8s, 16s, 32s...  Thus, the texture will get sparser, but
  not by fading out, but by notes playing less often

I've also written down some more bizarre effects like having different
notes in a chord pitch shift in different directions, and having notes
detune (pitch shift by fractional amounts) as they echo, that are of
very questionable utility.

>>  con: another MIDI delay in your signal path
>>   but: you can use your performance synth (e.g. guitar synth or keyboard)
>>       to provide the initial tone, and then the extra MIDI delay can
>>       be compensated for by reducing the first iteration's delay time
>>   but but: now you need another sounds source with very similar sounds
>>       to your initial sounds
>
>hm... there is no way you can merge the the two contol signals?

Well, in fact, if you're playing on a keyboard with a MIDI in and a
MIDI out, and it's well behaved, then you can in fact route the
output of the MIDI loop back to that keyboard.  I don't know how
many are well-behaved.  And I don't know how many guitar synths
have a MIDI-in.

If you imagine you're playing through a guitar->MIDI converter,
like the GI-10, then you'd need a pretty messy setup to try to
avoid the extra MIDI delay from the looper:

 naive:  guitar->MIDI --> looper --> synth

 direct:                 _--------------_
         guitar->MIDI --<_              _>-->synth
                          --- looper ---
                                         |
The problem is that the merge operation (|) requires an
extra little MIDI box, which probably incurs extra MIDI
delay as well, so this setup probably wouldn't speed up
the direct notes, except if the looper doesn't get direct
notes back to the output very fast.

>>  con: probably harder to create the software for
>No, I do not think so.

The main thing that I'm worried about is that MIDI is channel-oriented.
So if you play a note and bend it, you get pitch bend data on that
channel.  To output it, you need to play that note on its own channel,
so that the pitch bend doesn't bend other notes accidentally.

If you play _every_ note on its own channel, then you only get
16 notes at once, and for a big thick looped texture, that's not
enough.  So I'm imagining that you'll want really smart software
that allocates notes to their own channels if they need it (because
they get pitch bent or have some other MIDI continuous controller
applied to them), and otherwise puts them on one channel to conserve
channels.

Which seems like a mess.  (There are two better solutions: have
several MIDI outs, so you have more than 16 channels effectively
(but now you need several synths, so we're no longer low-budget);
or, use ZIPI instead of MIDI--but now we're in fantasy land.)

Also, audio data is really simple.  You get the sample,
you multiply to change its volume, you add to mix.  You're just
keeping one big queue of data in your delay, etc.  MIDI data is
made up of variable-sized packets, there's running status, etc.
etc.

Still, never having written either, I'm happy to defer to your
judgement on the complexity issue.  And not like it matters to
me--whether it's harder or not, it's not "too hard".

>and pro: You can create programs that for example repeat each input exactly
>4 times (at same volume) or more complex patterns like repeat twice / wait
>6 / play twice, softer...

Unfortunately, finding a user interface for such things is
going to be an enormous mess.  But it's definitely well suited
to all sorts of bizarre stuff that's just not feasible in audio,
because it never actually mixes the notes together the way an
audio looper does, so it can do all sorts of per-note stuff.

>Consider also to make it compatible with the existing looping devices to
>simplify operation and synchronization.

Totally.  Clearly it's hard for an audio looper to sync, since if
it doesn't want to pop if it gets out of sync, it needs to actually
change its sample rate, or maybe cross-fade the beginning and end
of the loop.  A MIDI looper can just play all the remaining notes
and jump to the start of the loop.  So making it slave seems smart.

>I could even imagine a unit that looks about like the Plex, but cost a lot
>less for doing the same only in MIDI.

I figure you could do a fine MIDI looper with a little box with
a 68020, 128K of ram, MIDI in and MIDI out, and some amount of
non-volatile memory for patches.  (Actually, for all I know,
a true 68000 would be fine.)

However, I'm not aware of anything like this available as a kit
or pre-made.  On the other hand, I can get an old Atari ST for
$50, which gives me 512K of ram and a floppy drive.  So my current
plan (but no promises) is to try to make an ST MIDI looper, at
least as a prototype.  The advantage of the ST over a PC or MAC
is that I can use it in performance more easily (since it's a
single piece), and it's cheap enough I can get another as a backup.

(Ok, really, the ideal box has at least 2 MIDI ins and 4 MIDI outs,
so the ST is less than ideal in that dimension, whereas plenty of
MAC or PC interfaces would do better.)

Sean Barrett

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:17:10 -0700
From: Warren Sirota <wsirota@wsdesigns.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: MIDI Looping
Message-ID: <33D112B6.3A735FEA@wsdesigns.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

In case anyone's interested, I wrote an application for and article on
MIDI Looping using MAX in Electronic Musician. Look for "MAX Programming
Workshop," August 1991. I created a multi-track looping program I called
"The Dresherizer" because it was inspired by Paul Dresher (that begs the
question, actually, of why I haven't seen any mention of Dresher in this
group. Have I just missed it? Is anyone else familiar with his stuff?)

Anyway, back to the article/program. Since I haven't been Mac-based for
a long time now, the source files are probably gone forever (although
reconstructable from the article, and they are probably on one of these
old 44MB SyQuest disks that I can't read with any of my current
hardware..). If anyone's interested, I can probably find a hardcopy of
the article that I can copy.

Warren Sirota
http://wsdesigns.com/wsirota

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.calarts.edu>
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Paul Dresher
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970719142632.11250B-100000@shoko.calarts.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Warren Sirota wrote:

> (that begs the
> question, actually, of why I haven't seen any mention of Dresher in this
> group. Have I just missed it? Is anyone else familiar with his stuff?)

He's cropped up here and there on this list (in reference, not in person). 
For my own part, he was the first performer I ever saw who was using
real-time looping in a live performance context.  I saw several of the
performance art pieces he did with vocalist Rinde Eckert about ten years
ago;  I'd surely like to have a copy of "Slow Fire" today (I fear my
original cassette copy has vanished in the mists of time).  Last I heard,
he was living in Minneapolis, and was doing some collaborations with the
California EAR unit; anyone else know what he's been up to in the last
several years? 

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 18:28:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Trueman <dan@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Paul Dresher
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970719181937.16875A-100000@silvertone.Princeton.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Paul Dresher is still living in the bay area. His most recent project is 
his own band-the Paul Dresher Ensemble-that has violin, bassoon, 
midi-vibes, drums (midi), keyboard, and himself on various guitars. The 
composer Steve Mackey (who has a great CD of his own, featuring all sorts 
of looping, called "Lost and Found," on Bridge Records) is currently working 
on an opera for the ensemble and Rinde Eckert, and I am lucky enough 
to be writing a piece for them as well; both will be performed as part of
their tour next spring. They will also be touring parts of CA this 
November. I think they have plans for a CD in the near future. They are 
one of the most interesting ensembles that I've run into, though I'm not 
sure how much looping they are currently doing...

Dan

----------------
"we need new instruments very badly..."
Edgar Varese
----------------


On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, The Man Himself wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Warren Sirota wrote:
> 
> > (that begs the
> > question, actually, of why I haven't seen any mention of Dresher in this
> > group. Have I just missed it? Is anyone else familiar with his stuff?)
> 
> He's cropped up here and there on this list (in reference, not in person). 
> For my own part, he was the first performer I ever saw who was using
> real-time looping in a live performance context.  I saw several of the
> performance art pieces he did with vocalist Rinde Eckert about ten years
> ago;  I'd surely like to have a copy of "Slow Fire" today (I fear my
> original cassette copy has vanished in the mists of time).  Last I heard,
> he was living in Minneapolis, and was doing some collaborations with the
> California EAR unit; anyone else know what he's been up to in the last
> several years? 
> 
> --Andre
> 

------------------------------
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 21:15:43 -0700
From: "Paolo Valladolid" <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edi>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Midi looping
Message-Id: <199707200431.VAA27003@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> I've read of techno bands who use computer sequencers on stage and vary
> their perfomances with these tools. It does take a lot of preparation and
> having Plan B available. Sounds like too much computing, planning and not
> enough playing for my taste. Which brings us full circle back to our
> friendly real-time loop devices :-)
>
I had a friend who did the techo thing.  He used the onboard sequencer
of his sampling keyboard.  He told me that many of his peers actually
prerecord sequenced parts into a DAT then play the DAT for their live
shows.

The group Cibo Matto has a song featuring flute leads.  I was amused to
see the keyboard player hold up one of those Walkmans with a speaker to
the microphone for the "flute solos".  Later in the show, she fired up
her old analog keyboard to play a "real" solo... but until they were joined
onstage by their guest drummer and bassist they too appeared to be using
a DAT player for the backup parts.

Supposedly, The Orb uses prerecorded DATs also but often feed the DATs
through effects andplay with mixer controls to add an improvisational
feel.

Paolo
             

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 05:29:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Michael <dmic27@ccnet.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: MAX/ MIDI Looping
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970720052515.9160B-100000@ccnet3>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Warren Sirota wrote:

> Hi All,
> In case anyone's interested, I wrote an application for and article on
> MIDI Looping using MAX in Electronic Musician. Look for "MAX Programming
> Workshop," August 1991. I created a multi-track looping program I called
> "The Dresherizer" because it was inspired by Paul Dresher (that begs the
> question, actually, of why I haven't seen any mention of Dresher in this
> group. Have I just missed it? Is anyone else familiar with his stuff?)

>  If anyone's interested, I can probably find a hardcopy of
> the article that I can copy.
> 
> Warren Sirota
> http://wsdesigns.com/wsirota

Hello,
  I would definitely be interested in your article - Is your MIDI Looper
program on the IRCAM MAX Archive site?
       Thanks,
     Doug Michael

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 10:23:02 -0800
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
To: wsirota@wsdesigns.com
Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: MIDI Looping/Dresher
Message-Id: <v01510101aff805bc8dae@[128.193.5.43]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:17 PM 7/19/97, Warren Sirota wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>In case anyone's interested, I wrote an application for and article on
>MIDI Looping using MAX in Electronic Musician. Look for "MAX Programming
>Workshop," August 1991. I created a multi-track looping program I called
>"The Dresherizer" because it was inspired by Paul Dresher (that begs the
>question, actually, of why I haven't seen any mention of Dresher in this
>group. Have I just missed it? Is anyone else familiar with his stuff?)
>
I was championing his Opposites Attract CD, a collaboration with Ned
Rothenberg on this list a while back, it's one of my absolute fave looping
discs.

I remember seeing your article back then, at the time I wasn't very fluent
in MAX, I should snoop around now for that article, I could probably get
more out of it now.

On a somewhat related note, I played briefly with a pre-midi ARP analog
control voltage sequencer recently. It had sixteen sliders that sent CV's,
which could either be interpreted as pitch or some other controller (filter
cutoff, whatever), and a clock that would step through the slider values.
You could route the CV's to any of three outs. It was a great, intuitively
easy, real time, though it doesn't exactly capture performance dynamics, it
was very easy to generate loops that could be varied over time. I'm
considering implementing a MIDI version in MAX when I get time.


________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

--------------------------------