------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 130

Today's Topics:
  Re: Loop performance listings         [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.cal ]
  RE: Looper's Delight takes a technic  [ Michael Peters <MPeters@compuserve. ]
  Re: Loop performance listings         [ "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@prim ]
  oops ... wrong address                [ Michael Peters <MPeters@compuserve. ]
  the agony of waiting philosophy       [ gorton@umich.edu (Russell Gorton) ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.c ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com> ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ future perfect <artmusic@gte.net> ]
  Ambient effects                       [ Nameless to the Goddess <afn39111@a ]
  Re: Ambient effects                   [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com> ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.co ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@prim ]

Administrivia:
Looper's Delight
****************

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Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com

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Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies!

http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html


Your humble list maintainer,

Kim Flint
kflint@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:03:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.calarts.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Loop performance listings
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970810010208.26981A-100000@shoko.calarts.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Kim --

Thanks very much for taking the time to set up the performance page.  It 
can only help us all out!

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:03:37 -0400
From: Michael Peters <MPeters@compuserve.com>
To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: Looper's Delight takes a technical leap forward!
Message-ID: <199708100603_MC2-1CB0-BD40@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline

>I just noticed that the link to "looper's delight" 
>is broken on the subpages. 
>You've got it going up one level too far. 

Oh. Please correct them, and I'll correct them here for the next version.
(Already got 1 new entry today.)

>Any progress on getting that web form figured out? 

no, I haven't looked into it yet, but I've asked Chris Chovit and he said
he'd try to find a way to do it.

Actually, it occurred to me this morning that the profiles page - which
will continue to grow and grow - is a perfect candidate for a database. A
database in combination with an entry form, once set up, would make it far
easier to maintain the data, and even easier to read and find data.

Programming databases is my speciality, that's what I'm living on, and I'm
currently busy finishing a yellow-pages-online like company information
site which is basically the same thing as a looping-musicians-information
site.

Do you know if there is a database engine running on the annihilist server
which we could use? While it would probably be possible for me to set up
such a database on my company's server (I'm in charge of the servers and
the programming, and this thing wouldn't be very large), I think it would
be better to have it all together on the annihilist server. OTOH, I could
use existing technology (MS SQLServer with a WebDBC interface) on my
company's server and more or less copy much of my existing code (database,
forms and all), while on your UNIX server everything would be unfamiliar to
me. Let me know what you think.
___________
Michael Peters   
        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters
HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want"
        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm
Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund
        http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 06:30:39 -0700
From: "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@primenet.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Loop performance listings
Message-Id: <199708101330.GAA02241@usr10.primenet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

While I completely concur with Kim on the idea of Looping being redoubtful
as a musical category, I'll not say no to our shoehorning-in on this one. 
Kudos for the connections, and for listening to us, Kim!

[applause.ra] [g]

Stephen Goodman       * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! 
EarthLight Studios         * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:19:35 -0400
From: Michael Peters <MPeters@compuserve.com>
To: "'Looper's Delight'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: oops ... wrong address
Message-ID: <199708101019_MC2-1CC8-71B6@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Disposition: inline

please ignore my previous message about databases, folks, it was meant to
be addressed to Kim privately.
___________
Michael Peters   
        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters
HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want"
        http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm
Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund
        http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:55:50 -0400
From: gorton@umich.edu (Russell Gorton)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: the agony of waiting philosophy
Message-Id: <v01530500b013b5c44501@[198.110.68.145]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Erik Ljones wrote:

>The people at Gibson just told me it may be another 3 weeks before the new
>upgraded Echoplexes reach Europe. I ordered mine 7 weeks ago, and I'm having
>problems killing off the waiting time. My Ensoniq Dp2 3.6 sec delay/looper
>and Boss pedals (2 sec) just don't do it for me anymore, I guess. This
>actually might make me go mad, you know. Any suggestions as for how to make
>my life seem meaningful playing the guitar the next 3 weeks?

Hear hear!  Waiting for my Echoplex nearly caused several psychotic
episodes, right up to the day of delivery (me in my officecage chanting:
"echoplexechoplexechoplex..." at the approaching UPS guy.)

Let's face it: we're all techy geeks obsessed with ridiculously
small-market electronics.  How many people go out and buy a dedicated
multi-effects processor every year compared to, say, the number of people
who go out and buy color televisions or personal computers? (actually, this
would be interesting to know...does NAMM keep these kinds of numbers?)  And
the ratio of people who buy something so specialized in function as a
DEDICATED LOOPING DEVICE to those who buy "normal" effects
processors...probably another jump down.

The point is, connoisseurs and slight eccentrics that we are, we are often
forced to wait longer and pay more for the goods that satisfy.  We
(probably) wouldn't want a world in which EVERYOHE craved their own [insert
LoopingDevice(tm) of your choice here]; but it WOULD make them cheaper and
plentiful (like color TVs.)

These are the breaks of "swimming upstream" in life.  Oh, sure, it's
agonizing.  But, the divine bliss one feels when the deal is made, and the
wonderful posture of superiority (internalized or on public display) you
get as a person of discrimination...these are the rewards of the cerebral,
patient hobby/lifestyle.

Enjoy it when it arrives.

--RtG

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:12:10 -0500
From: "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-ID: <33EFAA5A.107F@dmans.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ian///Shakespace wrote:
> A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's abilities as a
> guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you hone
> through practice. ... I really don't see a difference between a guitarist practicing his
> craft and a DJ practicing his. ... a DJ is grafting, adding elements and
> removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming may add or
> take away notes from a riff.

  Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that
doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock can
pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample into.
But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, &
attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The number of
options available for expression affects the power and expressiveness of
the instrument or method. A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of
expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone.
  Another way to say this is that if you don't play guitar but want to
play like Alan Holdsworth, then you had better get started; it'll be a
10 or 20 year journey if it's even attainable for you. However, becoming
a great DJ might take a few months to a year and a half; again, if you
have it in you. So... is there a difference in the activities because
one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful,
expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music.
  Another angle is that the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), *that
someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the same
choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice.

  On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that some
instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why are
there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments?
The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I was
making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments can
shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is a
reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular than
banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these
instruments.

Look out... incoming...

Motley

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 18:47:08 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970812014708.0098ca38@pop.chromatic.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth....

Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to prove that
one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? There's no
need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. Learn from
the differences, you might grow a little bit. 

kim

(and next time you want to make gross generalities about some group or
another, recall that you live in texas and there's no shortage of good
redneck jokes! :-) )



At 07:12 PM 8/11/97 -0500, Mikell D. Nelson wrote:
>Ian///Shakespace wrote:
>> A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's abilities as a
>> guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you hone
>> through practice. ... I really don't see a difference between a guitarist
practicing his
>> craft and a DJ practicing his. ... a DJ is grafting, adding elements and
>> removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming may add or
>> take away notes from a riff.
>
>  Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that
>doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock can
>pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample into.
>But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, &
>attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The number of
>options available for expression affects the power and expressiveness of
>the instrument or method. A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of
>expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone.
>  Another way to say this is that if you don't play guitar but want to
>play like Alan Holdsworth, then you had better get started; it'll be a
>10 or 20 year journey if it's even attainable for you. However, becoming
>a great DJ might take a few months to a year and a half; again, if you
>have it in you. So... is there a difference in the activities because
>one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful,
>expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music.
>  Another angle is that the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), *that
>someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the same
>choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice.
>
>  On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that some
>instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why are
>there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments?
>The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I was
>making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments can
>shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is a
>reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular than
>banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these
>instruments.
>
>Look out... incoming...
>
>Motley
>
>
>
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint		       408-752-9284
Mpact System Engineering       kflint@chromatic.com
Chromatic Research             http://www.chromatic.com

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:59:57 -0400
From: future perfect <artmusic@gte.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-ID: <33EFC39D.519A@gte.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kim Flint wrote:
> 
> Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth....
> 
> Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to prove that
> one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? There's no
> need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. Learn from
> the differences, you might grow a little bit.
> 
> kim
> 
> (and next time you want to make gross generalities about some group or
> another, recall that you live in texas and there's no shortage of good
> redneck jokes! :-) )

	I have not posted to the Looper list before: my roomate is a guitarist
and synthesist and I'm a singer and flutist...
	Though I do not wish to attack anyone on their views of music and its
wide range of expressivity, I do not think a DJ is a musician. He may be
a craftsman and an artist, just as say, a non-musician sound engineer
can be, but I *do* believe you must play a musical instrument to be
considered a musician. (And, yes, a voice *is* a musical instrument).:)
	If there is disagreement here, perhaps we must broaden our concept of
what a musical instrument is...? 

Misha

********************************************************************* 
'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 
"Nothing worthwhile is achieved suddenly"  -Robert Fripp

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:25:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Nameless to the Goddess <afn39111@afn.org>
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Ambient effects
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.95.970811222415.45440A-100000@freenet2.afn.org>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Okay, so let's not tear into me because I used the a-word, but what do you
find to be the best effects (and what hardware) for your less rhythmic
looping (how's that to replace the a-word?)?

DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111@afn.org <*> Why am I such a dork?
The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111
B5 (passing beyond the Rim) list: babylon5-request@gatekey.com

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:19:58 +0200
From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Ambient effects
Message-Id: <v01520d05b0151524df98@[205.177.25.43]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On 8/11/97 Namelss queried;

>Okay, so let's not tear into me because I used the a-word, but what do you
>find to be the best effects (and what hardware) for your less rhythmic
>looping (how's that to replace the a-word?)?

First off I love the a-word......and for my ambient loops ( generated with
my jam men)  I love to run them through my vortex and then add some reverb.
I also have run side of my vortex feeding a Roland RPS-10. I add a bit more
delay with this or add some pitch shifting...particularly if the loop is
kind of dense the pitch shifter if changed slowly can be nice......or I can
bypass the RPS-10.

Lately I've been running  loops and or sounds through I Sherman Filterbank
I picked up used.Then I run this into the Vortex. This can get real crazy
real fast.


Peace,

Patrick


 ***  ***    ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html  ***  **

  

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:15:14 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970812041514.00924428@pop.chromatic.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:59 PM 8/11/97 -0400, future perfect wrote:

>Kim Flint wrote:
>> 
>> Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth....
>>
>	I have not posted to the Looper list before: my roomate is a guitarist
>and synthesist and I'm a singer and flutist...

oh, yeah, I forgot about singers. Guitarists are second. :-) 

Welcome to Looper's Delight...but you asked for it!


>	Though I do not wish to attack anyone on their views of music and its
>wide range of expressivity, I do not think a DJ is a musician. He may be
>a craftsman and an artist, just as say, a non-musician sound engineer
>can be, 

Many DJ's would agree with you. If you are talking about people who work at
radio stations or play hits from the 50's at weddings or whatever. That is a
craft that requires a lot of skill, but is not the same as being a musician.

However, there are many people using turntables and samplers and such to
create unique and new music. Many of these people started out as the regular
sort of dj, working at dance clubs or whatever, and gradually used their
craft in increasingly creative ways. At some point they are quite obviously
(to me anyway) musicians. Where I live, a number of local rock bands have
even had dj's *as members* since the mid-80's. Functional, contributing
members of the band. Certainly as qualified to be musicians as the singer,
or even the drummer. :-)

The local rap/hip-hop scene had people creating unique, new music this way
for a decade before that. 

And really, to use your other example, there are a lot of recording
engineers crossing this boundary as well. I've heard a lot of remixes in the
past few years that were much more creative and interesting than the
originals. Is the engineer responsible for this really just a craftsman? 

You might not like music created in these ways, but it doesn't mean that it
is not music and the people doing it are not musicians. Let's not be so
judgemental. Open your mind a little and revel in the differences. Go roll
around in them. Soak them in, it won't hurt you. You might even find your
own musical sensibilites growing as a result.


>but I *do* believe you must play a musical instrument to be
>considered a musician. (And, yes, a voice *is* a musical instrument).:)

Well, I believe a musician is a person who creates music. Very simple, no
complications. However they wish to do that is fine, it's up to their own
creative muse. Who am I to decide?


>	If there is disagreement here, perhaps we must broaden our concept of
>what a musical instrument is...? 

clearly.....

To me, a musical instrument is whatever someone uses as a tool to create
music. Why do we need to draw some line in the dirt about what does and does
not qualify? Isn't that just a way to make sure we end up on the "right"
side of the line? It's just a path to elitism and arrogance, and I'm very
tired of seeing musicians behave that way. I've witnessed some extraordinary
music created with the most unlikely of devices, in the most unlikely
places, by the least likely individuals, and I'm very, very glad I was open
enough to listen and appreciate what I heard. 

Again, like I asked before, what is the goal of trying to prove that one
method for creating is better than another? Why do you feel a need to try?
If you succeed in proving this, what is your next step? 

You need to delve into your own head to answer those questions. For me it
meant understanding that after years of hard practice, I had developed a big
ego to go along with the speed at which I could wiggle my fingers. I had to
get over that and deal with a zillion insecurities about it all. I had to
get humbled a bunch of times too.  A never ending process, I imagine, but
undoubtedly a healthy one. I'm certain I would have stopped growing as a
musician if I hadn't dealt with those issues.

This whole list is about creating music in an unusual way. For me, a looper
is an instrument unto itself, and that's an idea that would probably be a
bit controversial most anywhere else. Given that, it's sort of amazing to me
to see some of the narrowness that's come up here about things like sampling
and dj's and whatever. It hardly seems useful for us to be promoting these
silly prejudices.

And Misha, thanks for letting me use your post as a soapbox. No hard
feelings meant, please feel free to join in any time. :-)

good thing I'm not motivated about working today,

kim

________________________________________________________
Kim Flint		       408-752-9284
Mpact System Engineering       kflint@chromatic.com
Chromatic Research             http://www.chromatic.com

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:44:20 -0500
From: John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-id: <33EFEA24.1D56@delphi.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Kim Flint wrote:
> 
> Yet more proof that guitarists are the most arrogant people on earth....

Bad day at the office, Kim?

> Could we please broaden our minds a little bit and stop trying to prove that
> one approach to music is oh so much more special than another? There's no
> need to be threatened by someone who's a bit different from you. Learn from
> the differences, you might grow a little bit.

'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make
me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos
Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please!

For that matter, point out the killer bassoon solo...

> (and next time you want to make gross generalities about some group or
> another, recall that you live in texas and there's no shortage of good
> redneck jokes! :-) )

Seems to me there's a profound difference between generalizing about
instruments and generalizing about people.  Motley was talking about
instruments.

And there's scarcely a paucity of Californian jokes here in Texas...
(I'd put a smiley here, but that's not the way I feel right now.)
 
> At 07:12 PM 8/11/97 -0500, Mikell D. Nelson wrote:
> >Ian///Shakespace wrote:
> >> A DJ's abilities as a DJ are just as inate as a guitarist's abilities as a
> >> guitarist... you're born with a certain amount of talent that you hone
> >> through practice. ... I really don't see a difference between a guitarist
> practicing his
> >> craft and a DJ practicing his. ... a DJ is grafting, adding elements and
> >> removing, much the same way as a guitarists picking or strumming may add or
> >> take away notes from a riff.
> >
> >  Creativity can be brought to almost any human endeaver, but that
> >doesn't make two activities equal in a more important sense. A jock can
> >pick the sample, playback rate, & what context he drops the sample into.
> >But a guitarist can do equivalent things AND choose tone, phrasing, &
> >attack; he can bend notes, add vibrato, & play harmonics. The number of
> >options available for expression affects the power and expressiveness of
> >the instrument or method. A 7 note thumb piano is not as capable of
> >expressing human emotion as a tenor saxophone.
> >  Another way to say this is that if you don't play guitar but want to
> >play like Alan Holdsworth, then you had better get started; it'll be a
> >10 or 20 year journey if it's even attainable for you. However, becoming
> >a great DJ might take a few months to a year and a half; again, if you
> >have it in you. So... is there a difference in the activities because
> >one is more difficult. Certainly. If you master a more powerful,
> >expressive medium you can create more emotional, evocative music.
> >  Another angle is that the DJ chooses a piece of music (sound), *that
> >someone else created*, to add to his mix. The guitarist makes the same
> >choice but uses his own pallet, his own voice.
> >
> >  On another, somewhat related, note I have always thought that some
> >instruments are more expressive than others, and wondered why. Why are
> >there more sax, guitar, trumpet or violin solos than other instruments?
> >The best answer I've come up with so far seems to be the point I was
> >making above about the options. The number of ways an instruments can
> >shape a note is directly related to it's expressive power. There is a
> >reason sax is more popular than French horn; or guitar more popular than
> >banjo. I believe great players can touch us more deeply with these
> >instruments.
> >
> >Look out... incoming...
> >
> >Motley
> >
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________
> Kim Flint                      408-752-9284
> Mpact System Engineering       kflint@chromatic.com
> Chromatic Research             http://www.chromatic.com

-- 
John Pollock
mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com
http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech)

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:29:35 -0700
From: "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@primenet.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-Id: <199708120629.XAA19614@usr08.primenet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I thought this one would go away but alas!  No!  So this is the only pair
of pennies I'm putting in on it....

Discussions about relative merit on what is 'art' or what is 'music' in the
comparison thereof can only be compared themselves to other forms of
intellectual masturbation like the following:

	PC vs Mac
	C vs Pascal
	Sales vs Marketing
	White vs Black

We should all spend more time composing or compositing or otherwise
creating unless what we really wish to do is just intellectually jerk off. 
What are we, music critics or something? [g]

Stephen Goodman       * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! 
EarthLight Studios         * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------

--------------------------------