------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 134

Today's Topics:
  Re: Bassoon Uber Alles                [ Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@wayneswo ]
  Guitar good, keyboards bad            [ Kim Corbet <kcorbet@post.cis.smu.ed ]
  OOOOOPS! Look what *I* did...         [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.cal ]
  Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was   [ Kim Corbet <kcorbet@post.cis.smu.ed ]
  Manual                                [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ]
  Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was   [ Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com> ]
  Phew!!!                               [ "Father: what am I chopped liver? 3 ]
  Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was   [ Dan Howarth <howarth@U.Arizona.EDU> ]
  Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was   [ Doug Michael <dmic27@ccnet.com> ]
  Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was   [ "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.c ]
  Re: Bassoon Uber Alles                [ "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.c ]
  RE:Solo Instruments                   [ "Ott, John" <John_Ott@ATK.COM> ]
  Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was   [ Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net> ]
  Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad        [ Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net> ]

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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:33:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles
Message-Id: <199708122033.NAA16109@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >> A "solo" in pop-derived music (including for this purpose, jazz) usually 
> >> refers to something composed by the instrumentalist, usually in some 
> >> semblance of realtime.  In a live context (to kill the topic of 
> >> punch-in's or comp'ed performances), it's usually improvised, perhaps 
> >> using previous improvisations as a guide or starting place.  Following 
> >> the jazz tradition, I would say that in it's purest sense, the "solo" 
> >> within pop music is different each time.
> >> 
> >> I think a good case can also be made that most "solos" in pop-music are 
> >> ego-driven displays, designed to cut heads, or earn the Blow Job (as 
> >> Zappa said).  To deny this is noble, but inaccurate.  
> >> 
> >> Travis
> >
> >I am not an expert on classical music, but most of the descriptive 
> >literature 
> >(liner notes, critiques, etc.) I've read on Western classical music 
> >use the word "solo" to refer to a melody line that highlights a particular
> >instrument during a particular piece.  For example (paraphrased from
> >memory): "Here in the 14th measure, the flute _solo_ evokes..."
> >A solo is a solo whether it is improvised or not.
> >
> >After all, there are quite a number of solos from the jazz genre that
> >are precomposed (e.g. works from Duke Ellington, the guy who wrote 
> >"Powerhouse", "The Penguin", and other tunes that show up in Bug Bunny
> >cartoons; others).
> >
> >Heck, even in pop a lot of solos are precomposed.
> 
> Yes, but pre-composed in the sense that the composer and the performer 
> are often the same person.  The solo may have been "composed" through 
> multiple takes, keeping the parts that worked, perhaps incorporating the 
> suggestions of band members, producers etc, but not by writing notes on a 
> staff, the way that classical music "composes" solos. 

But the end result is the same.  The solo ends up set in stone, to be
recited in an identical manner with each new performance of the music
whether it be a pop song or a classical piece.  With a few exceptions 
(there are always exceptions) the solo does not change.  This contradicts
your earlier assertion that the pop solo always changes.
 
> Think about the amazing amount of attention that guitarists pay to 
> solos--why is that?  In pop music, a solo may only occupy 10% of a song.  
> 90% of the time a guitarist is playing rhythm--why so much energy spent 
> on considering solos?  

Is this truly unique to guitar players?  How about sax players, keyboardists,
and other soloing musicians.
 

Paolo Valladolid
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list	|\ 
|for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments 			| \
 ----------------------------------------------------------------  |
\ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info		 \ |
 \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html		  \| 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:46:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kim Corbet <kcorbet@post.cis.smu.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Guitar good, keyboards bad
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9708121510.E26423-0100000@post.cis.smu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Phalluses good, desks bad...

what I mean is...as a keyboardist, I consider Jan Hammer's work with Beck 
and John McLaughlin definitely on par with the giant cohorts.

However, for me (the bassist & tightly budding guitarist), I'm sorry, but 
PLAYING the keyboard is boring to watch and not that exciting to DO 
compared to those beautifully vibrating strings over a wonderfully 
sculpted, smooth wood neck.  It's a whole lot more fun than sitting 
behind what amounts to a big hunk of furniture or, worse, a heavy chunk 
of plastic and cheap metal parts.  

I love my Nord keyboard, but for sheer playing pleasure, I'd much rather 
PLAY my strat or P-bass or Modulus 5-string.  It just feeeels good, man.

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 13:44:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.calarts.edu>
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: OOOOOPS!  Look what *I* did...
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970812131235.18916B-100000@shoko.calarts.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

So I didn't get any mail on Monday, and thought the list might be down. 
Then I logged in this morning and the first message was Motley's
now-infamous, dam-bursting post. 

So much for the list being down.  (There have been nine new messages alone
in the time that I've written this post.)

Since I seem to have (inadvertently!) spawned this whole thing about a
week ago, I feel like I should drop in a few points.  (I had been waiting
for the proverbial dust to settle before piping in again, but it now looks
like I'll be posting in the middle of a sandstorm instead). 

The main thing I want to say is that I'm not aware of a single instance in
any of my posts where I said that music made by a guitar player is
better/more musical/more expressive/more whatever than that made by a
DJ/programmer/whatever.  I have *not* been trying to make statements to
the effect that guitar-based loop music is better than sample-based loop
music, or that growing your own samples makes better music than
appropriating other people's samples. 

Obviously I have some preferences for my own music in some of the
aforementioned areas, and I've gone on at lengths (which, as Stephen
Goodman remarked, have probably veered dangerously close to mental
masturbation) to talk about why I feel strongly about the way that I'm
making music, and what it means to me.  But I *am not* saying that people
who don't share those methods aren't making real music.  Quite the
opposite. 

What I've been trying to get at are the *fundamental differences* in the
way these different types of musics are *made*, and the attendant
statements that are implicit in these distinctions.  Because music isn't
just *what you do*, it's *how you do it*.  When you pick up any
instrument, you making a statement before you've even played a note. 

I think it's worthwhile to look at these distinctions, especially when 
dealing with different sorts of looping technologies and techniques 
(which, up until the last couple of days, was ostensibly what this list 
is about).  *This* is why I've been trying adamently to talk in detail 
about the different statements involved in making music in different 
ways.  *This* is why I feel it makes sense to single out the three main 
real-time loopers in discussion.  

Because there *is* something more to making music than simply the sounds 
that you hear.  The process itself carries a very definite statement, and 
I think these are important things to think about.

I'm trying to underscore this because I think I've been undeservedly and
incorrectly identified as a guitarist bigot who feels that sample-based
music can't be as good as guitar-based music.  Kim, I have high regard for
your reasoning and beliefs, but if you honestly believe that my series of
"philosophy" posts from last week are really saying the same thing as
Motley's first post from Monday, and if you really think that I've been
trying to draw lines in the sand, ostracize people who don't make music in
the same way that I do, etc etc, then I've got to vehemently disagree with
you.  In the highly unlikely event that you find yourself with the time
and inclination, then I'd have to ask that you look over what I've said
again.  I'm *not* making judgements about the quality of the music, and I
frankly find it highly discouraging that you or anyone else would
interpret my postings as such. 

If I really wanted to approach this whole thread in a silly way, I could
give a list of the dozens of sample-based rap, hip-hop, industrial,
techno, jungle, and dance albums that I've been listening to at various
points for the last ten years; I could also list the dozens of famous,
groundbreaking guitarists whose recorded work I don't feel particularly
compelled to add to my collection.  I could also point to the numerous
posts I've made to the list regarding various electronic dance albums I've
been enjoying. 

If we want to talk intelligently about the way we make music, it seems to
me that we've got to be able to acknowledge differences in the way we make
it.  And I really do take issue with the extensive posts I've made (which
have been composed with a considerable amount of thought and care, though
apparently not with clarity of meaning) being misinterpreted as manifestos
of superiority, invalidity, ghettoization, drawing lines in the sand,
whatever whatever yadda yadda yadda. 

If nothing else, I think this thread wins the award for the longest 
electronically-based loop ever known to man.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame-fest.

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:57:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kim Corbet <kcorbet@post.cis.smu.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9708121547.F26423-0100000@post.cis.smu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> I don't see how anything is to be
> gained discussing, for example, why Pat Metheny is a more expressive soloist
> than Gary Burton because his instrument is "inherently more expressive".
> I'd rather not go there myself. 
................................I think there ARE some interesting places 
to go as tributaries to the primary string.  Looking at how the 
traditions of these instruments affect their current role and status, for 
example.  If there were "piano bands" instead of string bands in the 20s 
and 30s having their impact on country swing and Texas blues, etc., perhaps 
Buddy Holly's Crickets might have been bass, drums and a lead and rhythm 
keyboard line-up instead.  IF electric keyboards had been developed with 
the same zeal in the 50s and 60s and weren't assigned supporting roles in 
the subsequent decades, our discussion may be turned completely on its ear.

Eh?

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:26:16 +0200
From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Manual
Message-Id: <v01520d01b01614bad216@[205.177.25.43]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey Siobahn,

Patrick here. DId you ever get a jam man manual. Perhaps we can hook up
sometime soon?

P.


 ***  ***    ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html  ***  **

  

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:49:09 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970812214909.009fd1f4@pop.chromatic.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:20 PM 8/12/97 +0100, Michael Hughes wrote:
>
>> Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard 
>> heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero?  

Why is it, that in traditional african percussion ensembles, there is an
acute shortage of tenor sax players? 

Yet again, I have to wonder why some of you feel such an overwhelming need
to prove that guitars (or bassoons, or whatever) are somehow so much better
than other instruments. What purpose would proving that serve? They all do
different things, and can make wonderful contributions in different
contexts. Take the blinders off and enjoy it all.

>How 
>> many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by something 
>> with a piano-keyboard interface?
>
>Keith Emerson?
>Hell, he even smashes the keyboard up at the end of the gig!

Little Richard
Jerry Lee Lewis
Booker T
Elton John
Billy Joel
Bernie Worell
Kate Bush
Tori Amos
Trent Reznor

If there is a shortage of keyboard soloing in rock music, it's probably
because egomaniacal keyboard players gravitate towards being concert
pianists, or maybe jazz. Egomaniacal guitarists end up being yngwie
malmsteen. Role models for the self-obsessed appear in different places,
apparently. The team player/band member/song writer sort of piano player is
more likely to be the one that wants to play in a rock band. A damn good
thing, because I'd hate to see the rock band with John Tesh in it. 

One of the refreshing things about the electronic/dance scene is the
tendancy towards humility. In fact, many of the "heroes" go to length to
downplay themselves, which is probably why they are not so well known.
Having the urge to be the star and parade around in front of everybody is
not necessarily the same as being creative, or expressing oneself, or just
having a good time making music.

>Failing that, no.  there's a limit to how cool you can look sitting down, 
>and no, upright controllers don't count.

I think tori and elton john look pretty cool sitting down. Buckethead is the
only guitar player I think looks cool standing up. As if it mattered :-)

kim
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint		       408-752-9284
Mpact System Engineering       kflint@chromatic.com
Chromatic Research             http://www.chromatic.com

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 14:54:48 PDT
From: "Father: what am I chopped liver? 3-year-old: yeah! you're a chocolate river!" <griesan@bss.ENET.dec.com>
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Phew!!!
Message-Id: <9708122154.AA11190@us3rmc.pa.dec.com>

Hi Loopers,

Maybe you can help me get out of a loop I'm stuck in:   ;-)   ;-)   ;-)

StartLoop:
    read next email;
    if first sentence is same-ole philosophy stuff
    then
	quickly delete email;
	goto StartLoop
    else
	read for something meaningful and save;
    endif;


No offence intended  ;-)  I just got on this mailing list 2 days ago - Phew!!!!

To Fred Marshall:

Wow!  Now I feel like the most insignificant sound-mutilator on the planet.
More true than less...  But Fred please share any cool thing you know about
folks like Wes Montgomery and others!  Any little insight.  Anything that
sticks in your brain!  Anything you remember off and on that helps you play
music.  All loopers can benefit from any little gems of advice.

thanks-a-pile,
Tom

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:58:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Dan Howarth <howarth@U.Arizona.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.96.970812145337.45568A-100000@f1n7.U.Arizona.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Kim Flint wrote:

> because I'd hate to see the rock band with John Tesh in it. 
> 

i had the distinct experience of being the dressing room security guard
for tesh and company when they played here in tucson. it was pretty lame,
actually. i sat around and finished reading "a canticle for leibowitz"
whilst tesh and company traded jump-ropes, exercise bikes, and massages in
order to "get psyched for the show". tesh himself cranked up a few enya
discs and even enigma (he started up tubular bells II and
then decided after about five seconds that it wasn't good enough). the
show was very, very well lit. i remember four giant truss with about ten
of those computerized multi-gel/gobo lights each. the amount of money in
that company was intense. 
i guess if you're in a rock and role band, you gotta show the money.

**  Dan Howarth <howarth@u.arizona.edu>                       **
**  Classics-History-Music.  University of Arizona, Tucson    **
**  http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth 		              **

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:58:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Michael <dmic27@ccnet.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970812145454.7631E-100000@ccnet3>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, future perfect wrote:

> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded
> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the
> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade.  
> 
> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song
> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5.
> Dave
>   
There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. 
An amazing piece.
    Doug Michael

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 17:31:55 -0000
From: "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.com>
To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
Message-Id: <199708122229.PAA16960@apple.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>> >On the subject of a hierarchy of expressive instruments:
>> >
>> >I'd rather hear Gary Burton on vibes (considered by some of you to be
>> >less expressive than guitar/sax/etc.) than another bad imitation of
>> >Jimmy Page on guitar or that awful sax player who couldn't even play
>> >in tune with that mediocre lite jazz band I saw several years ago.
>> 
>> I don't think anyone can argue with statements such as "I'd rather hear a 
>> really good musician on one instrument than a really bad one on another". 
>
>Well, folks here have been discussing the relative merits of instruments
>in terms of absolutes; which left me a lot of leverage.  ^_^
>  
>> It might be more interesting to compare musicians at the top of the skill 
>> spectrum, rather than at opposing ends.  
>
>Here I must respectfully bow out.  I don't see how anything is to be
>gained discussing, for example, why Pat Metheny is a more expressive soloist
>than Gary Burton because his instrument is "inherently more expressive".
>I'd rather not go there myself. 

Actually, I think there's a lot to be gained, because I think it's easy 
to find consensus on the statement "Pat Metheny and Gary Burton are 
equally expressive, despite the limitations of their respective 
instruments", yet there's much criticism of various electronic 
instruments and effects processors because of some niggling feature that 
isn't present, be it 24-bit resolution, velocity sensitivity, only 8 
seconds of sampling time, the inability to map all paramenters to CV 
controllers, etc.  
This list, and the MI in general, spend a great deal of time discussing 
the technological aspects of instruments and music.  All variety of 
equipment is criticized because of some perceived terminal flaw.  Look at 
the piano--no pitch bending, only one sound, doesn't stay in tune, no 
aftertouch sensitivity, no doubling of pitches--it's full of limitations 
which would sink a synth, particularly if it cost $8k and weighed 500 
pounds.
If we can agree that Gary Burton might be able to get some meaningful 
work done with an instrument as woeful and feature-poor as the vibes, 
perhaps the rest of us might be able to make some headway with whatever 
we have, despite the inability to, say, have three concurrent loops of 
different length playing back at the same time.  Even if we're playing a 
synthesizer.

Travis

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 17:45:57 -0000
From: "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.com>
To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles
Message-Id: <199708122243.PAA32522@apple.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>> Yes, but pre-composed in the sense that the composer and the performer 
>> are often the same person.  The solo may have been "composed" through 
>> multiple takes, keeping the parts that worked, perhaps incorporating the 
>> suggestions of band members, producers etc, but not by writing notes on a 
>> staff, the way that classical music "composes" solos. 
>
>But the end result is the same.  The solo ends up set in stone, to be
>recited in an identical manner with each new performance of the music
>whether it be a pop song or a classical piece.  With a few exceptions 
>(there are always exceptions) the solo does not change.  This contradicts
>your earlier assertion that the pop solo always changes.

In my experience, the converse is true.  Except for things such as the 
first solo in Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb", solos (and I suppose that 
I'm speaking of guitar solos at this point, since I haven't been able to 
recall a significant number of keyboard solos in pop/rock) are winged 
each time.  Maybe they start the same, or there's an ending lick that it 
moves towards, but usually not.  One of the things that I, and the 
guitarists that I've run into look forward to in a solo is the chance to 
make something new on the spot.  

> 
>> Think about the amazing amount of attention that guitarists pay to 
>> solos--why is that?  In pop music, a solo may only occupy 10% of a song.  
>> 90% of the time a guitarist is playing rhythm--why so much energy spent 
>> on considering solos?  
>
>Is this truly unique to guitar players?  How about sax players, keyboardists,
>and other soloing musicians.
> 
I don't know.  The soloing role in pop music seems to be so completely 
dominated by guitar, particularly electric guitar, that asking the horn 
players what their take is will almost certainly lead you into the jazz 
field.  In addition, horn players can't play chords (by themselves), but 
my impression of the jazz world is that solos are still the acid test.

Pop (non-jazz) keyboard players, on the other hand...I don't know.  I was 
hoping that some keyboard players (those who view keyboards as their 
primary instrument) would speak up regarding this.  Kim, as always, is 
quick to defend non-guitar music from the Six String Klan, but I think 
even he is more of a guitarist than a keyboard player.  

Someone, I believe it was Kim, said that he enjoyed the more ego-free 
attitude in dance/electronic music, and while I'm opposed to excessive 
ego in any field, I've never been entirely convinced of the stance of  
synth humility.  The whole "all solos are masturbatory, boring and 
needless" is as groundless as "all dance music is boring, repititive and 
needless".  I'd prefer that guitarists have less self-importance, and 
keyboard players have more, to reach a happy mean.  Although, as far as I 
can tell, the Age of Shred has been gone for some years now, and the 
guitarist who wishes to flount his technical ability needs to go to the 
independent labels that cater to metal.

Please, keyboard players, speak up.

Travis

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:55:07 -0400
From: "Ott, John" <John_Ott@ATK.COM>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE:Solo Instruments
Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=ATK%l=EXCHANGE_WV1-970812225507Z-6329@exchange_wv1.ATK.COM>

>----------
>From: 	Doug Michael
>Reply To: 	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>Sent: 	Tuesday, August 12, 1997 5:58 PM
>To: 	John_Ott@ATK.COM
>Cc: 	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
>Subject: 	Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
>
>On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, future perfect wrote:
>
>> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded
>> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the
>> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade.  
>> 
>> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song
>> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5.
>> Dave
>>   
>There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. 
>An amazing piece.
>    Doug Michael
>
>
Yes

And the amazing runs from "Night after Night"
on the live album.  

Eddie also uses the violin as a "Solo Instrument"
amazing stuff.  See the Roxy Music "Viva" live album.
He and Phil Manzanera trade some wicked licks on 
"Out of the Blue"
 
later
John
>(Keyboards,Guitars,Trombone,JamMan,Musician)

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:02:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970812175941.21515A-100000@icarus.icarus.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, T.W. Hartnett wrote:

> >> Will say, Art of Noise records be referred back to in twenty years in the 
> >> same way that Cream records are?  
> >
> >Only if there's any justice left.
> 
> Don't bet on it.  Influential as Art of Noise has been on people who own 
> and/or operatate synthesizers, I think they may end up in the category of 
> "Historical Significance Only".  I mean, I think that the third Peter 
> Gabriel album (with the melting face cover, includes "Games Without 
> Frontiers" and "Biko") is ENORMOUSLY influential, enjoyable and worthy of 
> praise, but I'm astounded at the number of people, even musicians with a 
> stated interest in unusual, electronic pop music, who are unaware of or 
> indifferent to it.  If nothing else, this is the album that 
> singlehandedly introduced the gated reverb drum sound to the world, but 
> it doesn't really matter in the end.  Civilians hear it and say 
> "Nice...but I prefer 'So'."

Try applying this logic to Cream.  How many "civilians" have ever
really listened to Robert Johnson?  All Cream did was electrify
someone else's music.  It was enormously successful and popular, and
for good reason.  That just shows that success is no measure of
creativity or innovation, much less musical power. 

-dave

By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete.
Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. 
Venus De Milo.
To a child she is ugly.       /* dstagner@icarus.net */
   -Charles Fort              

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:12:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dave Stagner <dstagner@icarus.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970812180800.21515B-100000@icarus.icarus.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Guitar is the driving instrument of rock music.  If you switch genres,
say to jazz or classical, guitar is not held in the same regard.  In
jazz, the guitarist is the guy who has to switch to a one-chord vamp
for his solo because he can't play changes.  Bleh.

When Bill Frisell is praised in jazz circles, he's compared to
Thelonius Monk, not Jim Hall or Wes Montgomery or Charlie Christian.
Keyboardists and horn players dominate jazz.  Electric guitars just
gave us fusion.

Here's an experiment for all of you who think the guitar is such a
be-all solo intrument... try tuning to EADGCF for a few weeks.
Straight fourths across the fretboard.  You'll soon realize how much
you've been letting the instrument play you, rather than the other way
around.  All those blues licks that infect your vocabulary will fall
apart when they can no longer be played in one position.  Stick with
it, and you'll soon learn the harmonic advantages of this tuning,
advantages the much-maligned keyboardists have always enjoyed.

-dave

By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete.
Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. 
Venus De Milo.
To a child she is ugly.       /* dstagner@icarus.net */
   -Charles Fort              

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