------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 136

Today's Topics:
  Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars Goo  [ "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.c ]
  Re: Bassoon Uber Alles                [ "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.c ]
  Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was   [ future perfect <artmusic@gte.net> ]
  Electronica Solos                     [ "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.c ]
  OPINION SPAM                          [ Randy Jones <ranjones@texas.net> ]
  Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something  [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ]
  Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)    [ "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@prim ]
  Recommended DJs/Electronica (Was: Re  [ John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.co ]
  Bassoon Bait Brings Byte Barrage! (W  [ John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.co ]
  Re: No, No, No -- You're wrong. Actu  [ John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.co ]
  Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something  [ Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@wayneswo ]
  Re: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars  [ mgsam@wave.net ]
  Re: Electronica Solos                 [ Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@wayneswo ]

Administrivia:
Looper's Delight
****************

Please send posts to:

Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com

Don't send them to the digest!

To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email
with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no
signature files, to:

Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com


To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email
with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no
signature files, to:

Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies!

http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html


Your humble list maintainer,

Kim Flint
kflint@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:06:44 -0000
From: "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.com>
To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars Good, Keboards bad)
Message-Id: <199708130104.SAA08652@apple.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

I respond to Paolo Valladolid:

>> >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a 
recorded
>> >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the
>> >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade.  
>
>"changed the way the instrument... would be viewed..."
>
>This only applies to keyboard players.   
>
>Just like "Eruption" changed the way the guitar is viewed... only in the
>view of guitarists for the most part.  Is "Eruption" of any significance
>at all to, say, drummers, or sax players?  How about music lovers who
>don't play any instruments?
>
>My guess is "No" for both questions.

What I was trying to say was, yes, only for guitarists, and I suppose 
electric guitarists.  I don't think (and I'm not a big Van Halen fan, so 
this isn't Eddy worship) that the importance of "Eruption" can be 
overstated from that perspective.  It's repeatedly cited as a standout 
moment in the history of the electric guitar (which is almost the history 
of electric rock guitar).  In the same way that Hendrix' "Star Spangled 
Banner" changed the way people thought of the instrument (although I 
suppose SSB was just the capstone of the whole Hendrix revolution--the 
electric guitar as a instrument related to, but seperate from the 
acoustic guitar, or amplified archtop), "Eruption" was a musical 
statement which changed the direction of the electric guitar for decades 
to come.
Someone, I can't remember who, said that "Eruption" was the declaration 
that electric guitar was going to be difficult for now on, as opposed (I 
suppose) to the dominance of the blues-box soloing approach which had 
become so common throughout the '70's.

For electric bassists, I believe that Jaco Pastorius' first solo album 
occupies a similar role.  Acoustic guitarists might cite Leo Kottke's 
first album, "6 and 12 String Guitar".  These moments do exist, and I'm 
trying to find out what the keyboard equivalents are.  The guitar press 
frequently compiles lists of noteworthy albums and even solos--is there 
no equivalent in the keyboard world?

> 
>> >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song
>> >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5.
>> >> Dave
>> >>   
>> >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. 
>> >An amazing piece.
>> >    Doug Michael
>> 
>> Now I'm confused--is the ELP piece actually called "Eruption"?
>
>Come on Travis, you know better than that... ^_^

No, I'm dead serious.  Although ELP wasn't one of my favorite prog bands 
of the '70's, I'm not familiar with the album cuts, only the AOR tracks.  
If it isn't on ELP's Greatest Hits, I haven't heard it.
I also don't think that UK's music had the sort of widespread impact that 
I'm looking for here, without commenting on its merits.

>
>Just giving you a hard time, though I appreciate the Devil's Advocate
>role you've assumed in these discussions (intentionally or not).
>
>> Is this, and the UK piece, considered a piece of music so influential to 
>> the keyboard world that teenagers play it to the considerable annoyance 
>> of music shop staff, family, and neighbors, or are these just pieces that 
>> you're pointing out as noteworthy keyboard statements that you personally 
>> enjoy?
>> 
>> Travis
>
>Going back to your "Eruption" example for guitarists, I'd say that piece
>is only influential to guitar players and even then only to those who
>actually care for it.  I just don't see guys like David Lindley or young
>flamenco players giving two bits about "Eruption".

I'm sure that Lindley is quite aware of Eruption, and probably can play 
around a bit with the two-handed technique.  God knows, he can play 
stringed things with frets in just about any other way.  Young flamenco 
players probably don't know or care, but in this discussion, I'm probably 
referring to electric guitarists from North America or Europe.  Most of 
them don't give two bits about Paco de Lucia, but that doesn't deny his 
stature within the flamenco world.  However, western pop music has found 
its way almost everywhere in the globe, flamenco has not, and I'm think 
that "Eruption" has had a direct or indirect effect on more people than 
Paco, be it through Van Halen's music itself, or the many, many players 
who were inspired by him.

Travis

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:21:56 -0000
From: "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.com>
To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>,
        "Brandon Powell" <giantsat@mail.apple.com>
Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles
Message-Id: <199708130119.SAA32344@apple.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Paolo says:

>> >But the end result is the same.  The solo ends up set in stone, to be
>> >recited in an identical manner with each new performance of the music
>> >whether it be a pop song or a classical piece.  With a few exceptions
>> >(there are always exceptions) the solo does not change.  This contradicts
>> >your earlier assertion that the pop solo always changes.
>>
>> In my experience, the converse is true.  Except for things such as the
>> first solo in Pink Floyd's "Comfortably Numb", solos (and I suppose that
>> I'm speaking of guitar solos at this point, since I haven't been able to
>> recall a significant number of keyboard solos in pop/rock) are winged
>> each time.  Maybe they start the same, or there's an ending lick that it
>> moves towards, but usually not.  One of the things that I, and the
>> guitarists that I've run into look forward to in a solo is the chance to
>> make something new on the spot.
>
>This is probably more true pop music from the 70s or earlier.  More recent
>pop solos that I have heard live are reproductions of the recorded versions.
>You might recall a recent complaint by Eric Clapton that not enough players
>today in rock are willing to solo in a truly off-the-cuff manner.

I hadn't seen that, but it could be that if what I call the Soviet Theory of Musical Ego ("The individual is not worthy of individual statement, only the good of the collective should be considered") is presented as good (witness the last twenty years of the British music press holding the anti-solo sentiments of Punk Rock dear to their heart) for long enough, young musicians may be convinced that soloing is a bad thing, and won't work on developing the skills necessary to solo well, which generally involves millions of crap, trite, boring solos.

I live in Austin, and so the "guitar gunslinger" mentality, for better or worse is still alive and well here.  I may have a skewed view of the Current State Of Guitar, but there's still a lot of SRV articles in the guitar press--someone's got to be learning this stuff.

Paolo says:

"I too hope a keyboardist will speak up because none of the keyboard players
I have met were particularly interested in soloing in a pop context.
Maybe in a jazz context but of course we're not talking about jazz here.
Bass players I've met tended to be more impressed by a good bass groove
than ripping bass solos."

¥ That's strange, because if Bass Player magazine is any indicator of the State of the Bass Union, there's still ample concern for ability to step out as needed.  Reviews of new instruments always have a discussion of upper register access and playability, and the ability to cut through during a solo.  There's also a preponderance of attention paid to the traditional, supportive role of the bass player, but try to tell BP that the bassist shouldn't take a solo, and you'll have a fight on your hands.


Paolo:

"My guess is that because guitar is the featured instrument in rock and
pop (sorry, I can hardly tell the difference), the guitarist is
expected to solo more than the keyboardist."

¥ But why is it featured?  Where's the Angry Young Keyboard Player with something to say?  The soloing ability of synthesizers is fearsome, there's got to be some rebel who says "screw the guitarist, I've got something to say here".

Travis

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:20:58 -0400
From: future perfect <artmusic@gte.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
Message-ID: <33F10BFA.3C6C@gte.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

T.W. Hartnett wrote:
> 
> >> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded
> >> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the
> >> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade.
> >>
> >> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song
> >> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5.
> >> Dave
> >>
> >There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days.
> >An amazing piece.
> >    Doug Michael
> 
> Now I'm confused--is the ELP piece actually called "Eruption"?
> Is this, and the UK piece, considered a piece of music so influential to
> the keyboard world that teenagers play it to the considerable annoyance
> of music shop staff, family, and neighbors, or are these just pieces that
> you're pointing out as noteworthy keyboard statements that you personally
> enjoy?
> 
> Travis

Yes, the piece on Tarkus is actually called 'Eruption'.
-- 
********************************************************************* 
'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 
"Nothing worthwhile is achieved suddenly"  -Robert Fripp

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 97 20:31:44 -0000
From: "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.com>
To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Electronica Solos
Message-Id: <199708130129.SAA24188@apple.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

>> Someone, I believe it was Kim, said that he enjoyed the more ego-free 
>> attitude in dance/electronic music, and while I'm opposed to excessive 
>> ego in any field, I've never been entirely convinced of the stance of  
>> synth humility.  The whole "all solos are masturbatory, boring and 
>> needless" is as groundless as "all dance music is boring, repititive and 
>> needless".  I'd prefer that guitarists have less self-importance, and 
>> keyboard players have more, to reach a happy mean.  Although, as far as I 
>> can tell, the Age of Shred has been gone for some years now, and the 
>> guitarist who wishes to flount his technical ability needs to go to the 
>> independent labels that cater to metal.
>> 
>> Please, keyboard players, speak up.
>
>Might I suggest the keyboardists in electronica _do_ solo, but not in the
>way you'd expect to hear them?

For now, I'll say that a "solo" is a instrumental statement by one person 
in a group context, which clearly says "I have the ball!", and this point 
is not contested by the other musicians.  The focus of attention shifts 
to the performer in question for the duration of the solo.  A statement 
is made with a beginning, a middle, and an end.  There is no question as 
to whether or not a "solo" is occurring.  When in doubt, the soloist is 
the guy who's playing the loudest.

If you can point out such occurences in electronica, please provide 
specific track examples.  Again, I'm not denying that these things exist, 
I'm just asking for someone to provide examples for my education, and 
further discussion.

Travis

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:50:17 -0500
From: Randy Jones <ranjones@texas.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: OPINION SPAM
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970812204916.007cbed0@texas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wow!

Whats happening? 
Can we stop all this opinion B.S.  
Who cares what instrument you play/like.
Who cares who your favorite artists are.
Who cares which albums you buy.
Who cares what you think is/isn't music.
Who cares what you think about sampler, syths, djs, music theory, music
philosophy or someones elses opinion on the above.

No one here is going to change his/her mind based on your opinion, we just
want to discuss hardware, software, playing, gigs and looping techniques.
We can make up our own opinions. We just want the facts!

Or am I the only one tired of getting this OPINION SPAM as email.

Just MY opinion! 

:-(AHHHHH)

Randy Jones

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:24:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: BlkSwan03@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please!
Message-ID: <970812222156_-1203140705@emout10.mail.aol.com>

Without a doubt, the Eventide H3000D/SE, or other Eventide products.
Expensive yes,
but worth it.  You'll use it for years and years and never get tired of it.
 Clean and quiet with hundreds of very easily changed effects.  If you like
to warp things out extensively, this is it.   Others worth mentioning:  the
Lexicon PCM 80, extreme quality with enough tweaking possibilities to keep
you interested forever.  Another great thing is Lexicons' thoughtfulness in
including a PCM/CIA card slot.  Altho these cards cost about a hundred
dollars for blanks, you can store hundreds of sounds in them.  Almost a
thousand if memory serves.  Also, Lexicon makes cards with new algorithms
that add new features to the unit, as well as program cards.  First rate.
 Another great one is the Sony V77.  Very easy to program and excellent
quality.  Not cheap but you won't ever be bored with it.  Another is the
Roland SDE 330 Dimensional Space Delay.  One of the best delay units made.
 Yup, these are my faves, but the Eventide is definitely at the top of my
list.

Jim      Portland  OR

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:31:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: BlkSwan03@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-ID: <970812222850_-1472013121@emout13.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 8/12/97 3:38:09 PM, you wrote:

<<I've witnessed some extraordinary
music created with the most unlikely of devices, in the most unlikely
places, by the least likely individuals, and I'm very, very glad I was open
enough to listen and appreciate what I heard. >>

Could you elaborate on this Kim?   It sounds extremely interesting.

Jim   Portland   OR

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:57:33 -0700
From: "Stephen P. Goodman" <sgoodman@primenet.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed)
Message-Id: <199708130257.TAA28073@usr01.primenet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD wrote:
> 
> Yes, but a guitarst on his own is pretty imited.  There aren't many solo
> electric guitar peices worth listening to. 

Now wait a minute!  While I won't wholly disagree with the second statement
- and I hope I'm not in THAT group - a pat statement like the first one is
too general to ever apply to reality.

I admit I'm chugging away and creating this stuff on an ongoing basis,
without other than good reviews from the published work so far; and ALL of
it can't be great.  There are few soloists I like listening to myself. 
Personally, from a looping standpoint, I love being able to have the system
at home, ready for me to sit down and create a texture, and let it run for
hours.  I decided to take this path towards performance because I believed
that the music has lots of places to go, and that a lot of people haven't
heard it yet.  Maybe it's the way I do it.  Maybe not!

But I had to rebut that comment at least.  Ahenh.!

Stephen Goodman       * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! 
EarthLight Studios         * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:18:13 -0500
From: John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Recommended DJs/Electronica (Was: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed))
Message-id: <33F12775.3B06@delphi.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Okay, I'm gonna try again.

In an earlier post, in response to Kim Flint, I wrote:

> >'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make
> >me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos
> >Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please!

And Kim responded with a laundry list of artists whose work "really
turned my head around and opened up new ideas," and which "really
mattered to me".

If I had far more time and money than I have, I'd gladly check out each
of Kim's suggestions.  But I have practically no money even to buy work
by artists I _know_ I like, and little time even for my own music.

I've tried to educate myself by watching MTV and BET, but became so
distracted and disgusted by the raps that I gave up.  What remains of my
life is too short to willingly subject myself to racism and sexism, and
after living in an inner city for longer than most of the rappers have
been alive, I already know how bad it is.

What I'd really like are the names of one or two or three albums which
clearly display the work of a virtuoso DJ, unobscured by raps, vocals,
or other musicians.  Is this asking too much?
-- 
John Pollock
mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com
http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech)

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:48:32 -0500
From: John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Bassoon Bait Brings Byte Barrage! (Was: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY
 (condensed))
Message-id: <33F12E90.1C9F@delphi.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Kim Flint wrote:
> 
> At 11:44 PM -0500 8/11/97, John Pollock wrote:
> >'Kay, my mind's open... Show me any example of a DJ's work that can make
> >me feel like, say, Ry Cooder's solo on "Lipstick Sunset" or Amos
> >Garrett's on "Midnight at the Oasis"-- please!
> 
> >For that matter, point out the killer bassoon solo...
> 
> I like the way bassoon sounds, why are putting that one down? After playing
> guitar all my life, working for a guitar company, and generally being with
> it forever, I would be quite happy to spend a year listening to bassoon!

(sigh) I was not putting it down.  Nor, for that matter, was I putting
DJs down.  I was stating my agreement with Motley's point, which _I_
took to be that it's easier to play music expressively on some
instruments than on others.

I mentioned the bassoon precisely because I've read and been told that
it is a very difficult instrument to play at all, harder still to play
with technical proficiency, and harder yet to play expressively.  It
lacks the guitar's or violin's ability to do double stops or chords, and
I suspect (though I don't know this for sure) that a bassoonist would
have a tough time doing the glissandi that are so readily achieved on
guitar or violin.  Thus, from my perspective, it's no surprise that
bassoon solos are rare in the mass media compared to guitar and violin. 

I think I can fairly sum up Fred Marshall's contribution to this thread
thusly:  "Instruments don't make great music; great musicians do."  If
that's not exactly what Fred meant, it's nonetheless how I feel.

But Motley's contention that it's easier on some instruments than others
is, I believe, inarguable.  At the least, I feel it deserves a more
respectful response than it received from Kim.
--
John Pollock
mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com
http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech)

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:12:49 -0500
From: John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: No, No, No -- You're wrong.  Actually,
 the World's Best Instrumen t is...
Message-id: <33F13441.70BA@delphi.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

David Kirkdorffer wrote:
> 
> Excellent!  We've started a really stupid and pointless thread in our
> Looping tappistry!

I totally agree. 
 
> P.S.  John P. -- my posting is not directed at you specifically, but to
> answer a question you asked -- here is a listing of some bassoon solos
> and bassoon music...
> 
> International Double Reed Society
> Library Holdings - Music: Solo Bassoon
> 

             [lengthy list snipped]

Look how many of these titles are studies, methods, or orchestral
excerpts.  I'm not aware of any bassoon virtuoso/composer comparable to
Liszt, Paganini, or Bach, to name just a few who were known as much for
their performing ability as for their compositions.

Ob looping:  It occurs to me, though, that with a 'Plex or 'Rang and
maybe a Whammy Pedal at his/her disposal, a bassoonist could find the
playing field today a lot closer to level.
-- 
John Pollock
mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com
http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech)

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:07:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: RE: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please!
Message-Id: <199708130507.WAA18770@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just received DPCoffin's review of the TC Electronics G-Force.  Sounds
like a very interesting box.


Paolo Valladolid
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list	|\ 
|for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments 			| \
 ----------------------------------------------------------------  |
\ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info		 \ |
 \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html		  \| 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:19:38 -0700
From: mgsam@wave.net
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars Good, Keboards bad)
Message-Id: <v01510102b0166d743f4d@[198.68.31.62]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Many interesting posts...the LoOpDoctOrs are eyestrained.

Here are our thoughts...and by the way, we come armed with Keyboards and
Guitars to every gig...we like them both.

1: The piano was the middle class instrument pre-depression.  The nineteen
thirties devestated the piano business...the instrument has never really
recovered.  Hence,fewer young hands taking up the ivories, so fewer young
hands can transfer those skills to a keyboard.
Also it took a helluva long time to succesfully amplify keyboards...  And
spare us arguments about two ton Hammond B-3s.

2: Post World War 2 and with the advent of the electric amp, guitar became
the middle class instrument.  There were a host of reasons but briefly...

                a: guitar is much less expensive and complex to build then
a piano, and much easiar to learn to play passably well.

                b: instrument that gained the most by the advent of
electric                      amplification (thank you, Leo!)

                c: The guitar is a folk instrument that rose with "folk"
music, just as the world was finally throwing off the shackles of
colonialism.  Hence, blues, rock, funk, World...(you name it now...the
contempoarary musical scene has just glopped itself silly with disparate
influences) got liberated by WW 2, and the guitar was the secret weapon
that really won the Cold War.  Ironically, the guitar had been a "gutter"
instrument...all that poor people in the south could afford.

                d: Likewise, America was/is the inventor/promulgator of
loud guitars...has been throughout this century, first with the steel
string, later with the electric.  When America conquered the world post WW2
it spread its music and its guitars.

                e: the guitar has the most powerful sexual iconography of
any instrument...(have you ever noticed that a Strat is Apollonian and a
Les Paul is Dionysian?  Skip this if you haven't studied the
Greeks)...anyway, your average 13 year old gets right away that there are
two things you can buy for about $300 that look and in many ways act like a
bigger cock...an electric guitar and a pistol.  Both make noise, and both
scare the shit out of parents.  Given the music it serviced (rock and roll)
it was the the perfect "fit."
Meanwhile, even the most outrageous and visual piano players look like
they're taking a dump when pounding it out on the piano.  They have to
twist their necks to look at the audience, or stay hidden behind the box,
and no way are they going to be able to pick up and stroke that thang!


Onto other points...


3: the Piano DID have tons of Eddie Van Halens...there names were Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert, List, Rachmaniniov, Paderewski, Rachmononov,
Horowitz...these "piano heroes" came between 1750 and 1950.

4: Jazz lost the popularity contest about 1948.  It only survives now
through public schools.  It is America's high art, but is not particularly
accessible, and to play it you better know more then a blues box and bar
chords.  Rock has never had this problem.

5: Bill Frissell is good, but Monk is Monk and inimitable...so just let
Bill be Bill.

6: One final point.  Popular music has grown more and more interesting in
the last five years, and the LoOpDoctOrs believe, maybe foolishly, that it
is morphing and absorbing just about anything it can glop onto...so genre
boundaries are becoming less relevent...with the exception of maybe 10 to
17 year olds.  They will always have some form of pagan, rebellious,
no-brainer-to-play sex music based around "folk" chords.

7: On technique/virtuosity/and musicality...the LoOpDoctOrs like to think
that it isn't in the fingers...but in the brain and the heart.  We are
looking for the ships that will sail us there.  We don't ask for perfect
seas either, and can't imagine calling ourselves sailors without knowing
how to deal with foul weather.  And whoever wrote that piano was built to
play in "middle C" has just got to be kidding!

Meanwhile we want/demand a varied musical diet.  We love it that musicians
from Africa now cross the Atlantic to play on sessions in America and visa
versa.

Best,
the LoOpDoctOrs

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:23:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Electronica Solos
Message-Id: <199708130523.WAA18846@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> >Might I suggest the keyboardists in electronica _do_ solo, but not in the
> >way you'd expect to hear them?
> 
> For now, I'll say that a "solo" is a instrumental statement by one person 
> in a group context, which clearly says "I have the ball!", and this point 
> is not contested by the other musicians.  The focus of attention shifts 
> to the performer in question for the duration of the solo.  A statement 
> is made with a beginning, a middle, and an end.  There is no question as 
> to whether or not a "solo" is occurring.  When in doubt, the soloist is 
> the guy who's playing the loudest.

As I suspected, the improvisations I was talking about don't match your
definition of a solo.  I certainly wasn't talking about soloing using
the scales, arpeggios, and other constructs built upon the 12-tone
equal tempered scale.
 
> If you can point out such occurences in electronica, please provide 
> specific track examples.  Again, I'm not denying that these things exist, 

Unfortunately, I cannot suggest specific track examples; though I
strongly recommend you check out the Live 93 double-CD by The Orb.
The live configuration of The Orb consisted of a bassist, two percussionists,
and two keyboardists if I recall correctly.  The keyboardists "improvise"
by changing the settings of mixers, effects parameters applied to 
samplers and synths and so on in real time.  For example, they will
play DATs which contain prerecorded backing tracks but will feed the DAT
outputs into a mixer connected to effects so they can fade effects in
and out and do other things to teh DAT signal so that the playback of the
DAT is always different from concert to concert.  Add to this
the live bassist and percussionists who interact with the keyboard players
so there is actual communication going on between musicians instead of
everyone being slaved to some mechanical clock.  

After you listen to Live 93, let's talk some more. ^_^

Paolo Valladolid
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list	|\ 
|for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments 			| \
 ----------------------------------------------------------------  |
\ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info		 \ |
 \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html		  \| 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------