------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 137

Today's Topics:
  Re: Bassoon Uber Alles                [ Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@wayneswo ]
  Re: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars  [ Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@wayneswo ]
  Re: Ambient effects -- something wil  [ Henry Throop <throop@bogart.Colorad ]
  Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad        [ Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@wayneswo ]
  Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad        [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ]
  Re: I just can't stop writing today.  [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ]
  Re: OPINION SPAM                      [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ]
  Re: Recommended DJs/Electronica (Was  [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ]
  Re: I just can't stop writing today.  [ John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.co ]
  Magazines (Was: Re: Travis' comments  [ John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.co ]
  LOOPING, remember?                    [ Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com> ]
  Do comparisons lead to false truths?  [ David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer@exa ]
  Re: Guitar good,etc,Now Jobson Solo   [ John Michael Beard <jbstudio@centur ]
  CGDAEG tuning                         [ "mmason"<mmason@faulkcomp.com> ]

Administrivia:
Looper's Delight
****************

Please send posts to:

Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com

Don't send them to the digest!

To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email
with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no
signature files, to:

Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com


To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email
with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no
signature files, to:

Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com


Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies!

http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html


Your humble list maintainer,

Kim Flint
kflint@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:41:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Bassoon Uber Alles
Message-Id: <199708130541.WAA18918@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> I hadn't seen that, but it could be that if what I call the Soviet =
> Theory of Musical Ego ("The individual is not worthy of individual =
> statement, only the good of the collective should be considered") is =
> presented as good (witness the last twenty years of the British music =
> press holding the anti-solo sentiments of Punk Rock dear to their =
> heart) for long enough, young musicians may be convinced that soloing =
> is a bad thing, and won't work on developing the skills necessary to =
> solo well, which generally involves millions of crap, trite, boring =
> solos.

Actually what Mr. Clapton is talking about is the lack of desire to
make up a totally new solo in the live performance of a song.  Instead
it's common for the guitarist to play it safe and simply reproduce the
same solo he played on the album.  It's much scarier to approach your
solo with a clean slate over and over again with each new gig.
 
> I live in Austin, and so the "guitar gunslinger" mentality, for =
> better or worse is still alive and well here.  I may have a skewed =
> view of the Current State Of Guitar, but there's still a lot of SRV =
> articles in the guitar press--someone's got to be learning this stuff.

Do the gunslingers really invent new solos off teh tops of their heads
with each re-performance of their songs or do they always play the same
solo?  I mean, in Austin, of course.

> Paolo says:
> 
> Bass players I've met tended to be more impressed by a good bass =
> groove
> than ripping bass solos."
> 
> =80 That's strange, because if Bass Player magazine is any indicator =
> of the State of the Bass Union, there's still ample concern for =
> ability to step out as needed.  Reviews of new instruments always =
> have a discussion of upper register access and playability, and the =
> ability to cut through during a solo.  There's also a preponderance =
> of attention paid to the traditional, supportive role of the bass =
> player, but try to tell BP that the bassist shouldn't take a solo, =
> and you'll have a fight on your hands.

But how many bass players in the world actually read Bass Player? I've
met many guitar players who don't read guitar magazines.  The sample
size in my personal experience is admittedly small but most of the
bassist's I've met are more interested in good grooves than out-shredding
the guitarists. 
 
> Paolo:
> 
> "My guess is that because guitar is the featured instrument in rock =
> and
> pop (sorry, I can hardly tell the difference), the guitarist is 
> expected to solo more than the keyboardist."
> 
> =80 But why is it featured?  Where's the Angry Young Keyboard Player =

Because guitar is much more popular than keyboard as an instrument;
they're cheaper, you can take them to the beach and impress girls with 
them, they're much more convenient to use as props/phallic symbols/
fashion accessories, etc.

> with something to say?  The soloing ability of synthesizers is =
> fearsome, there's got to be some rebel who says "screw the guitarist, =
> I've got something to say here".

Maybe the AYKP can't be found in Austin? ^_^

Sun Ra was one bad mofo synth player who actually PLAYED the synth instead
of treating it like a home organ.  If he had been a member of P. Funkadelic
(instead of that weirdo space-jazz arkestra of his ^_^) I'm sure he would
have attracted more attention and inspired a whole new generation of 
ripping synth soloists.

I'm sure there's a kid out there making serious virtuosic noise on a 
Yamaha VL1 physical modeling synth (the best lead synth I ever heard)
as we speak...


Paolo Valladolid
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list	|\ 
|for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments 			| \
 ----------------------------------------------------------------  |
\ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info		 \ |
 \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html		  \| 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:55:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Keyboard "Eruption" (was Guitars Good, Keboards bad)
Message-Id: <199708130555.WAA18972@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> trying to find out what the keyboard equivalents are.  The guitar press 
> frequently compiles lists of noteworthy albums and even solos--is there 
> no equivalent in the keyboard world?

Well Keyboard Magazine obviously compiles its own lists.

Others have cited examples ranging from ELP to Genesis to that guy
in Kansas.  How about that opening organ solo in Boston's "It's Been
a Long Time" (ok, I don't remember the correct title)?  Here is a song that
even today receives near-constant airplay on classic rock stations and
surely has been heard by millions of potential keyboardists.  If none of
these examples convince you then I guess we should move on...

> >Going back to your "Eruption" example for guitarists, I'd say that piece
> >is only influential to guitar players and even then only to those who
> >actually care for it.  I just don't see guys like David Lindley or young
> >flamenco players giving two bits about "Eruption".
> 
> I'm sure that Lindley is quite aware of Eruption, and probably can play 
> around a bit with the two-handed technique.  God knows, he can play 

But do you really believe Lindley was influenced by "Eruption"? How about
that incredible young slide player in New York (Dave Tronzo)?

> stringed things with frets in just about any other way.  Young flamenco 
> players probably don't know or care, but in this discussion, I'm probably 
> referring to electric guitarists from North America or Europe.  Most of 

In that case, what you say sounds reasonable.

Paolo Valladolid
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list	|\ 
|for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments 			| \
 ----------------------------------------------------------------  |
\ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info		 \ |
 \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html		  \| 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:01:29 -0600 (MDT)
From: Henry Throop <throop@bogart.Colorado.EDU>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Ambient effects -- something wild and crazy, please!
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95.970812235248.16707D-100000@bogart.Colorado.EDU>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> Without a doubt, the Eventide H3000D/SE, or other Eventide products.
> Expensive yes, but worth it.  You'll use it for years and years and
> never get tired of it.  Clean and quiet with hundreds of very easily
> changed effects.

Umm... including the somewhat non-traditional effect that it was just
featured using in 'Contact,' processing RF signals from the Very Large
Array radio telescope.  :-)

-henry
throop@colorado.edu

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paolo Valladolid <pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad
Message-Id: <199708130602.XAA19014@waynesworld.ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> In non-fusion Jazz, the guitarist is usually denied the option of 
> distortion, the primary method of imparting sustain upon a sustain-poor 

I don't know how things are in Austin but from what I've seen the
guitarist himself chooses not to use distortion; he is not barred from
using it by the other band members.  It could be out of fear, it could
be out of some ingrained notion of how the guitar ought to sound int
a jazz context (witness the phenomenon of young jazz guitar students
trading in their Strats/Les Pauls/etc. for fat jazz boxes) or it could
be something else. 

> note, you're sort of pressed into playing another...quickly.  The pianist 
> can't just sit on a note for four bars, whereas the above instruments can.

This goes back to "no instrument can do evertying".  Great pianists
find ways to say what they want to say on their instrument.

Paolo Valladolid
 ---------------------------------------------------------------
|Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list	|\ 
|for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments 			| \
 ----------------------------------------------------------------  |
\ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info		 \ |
 \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html		  \| 
  -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:25:51 -0800
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good, keyboards bad
Message-Id: <v01510104b01700bfc817@[128.193.5.48]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 3:46 PM 8/12/97, Kim Corbet wrote:
>Phalluses good, desks bad...
>
>what I mean is...as a keyboardist, I consider Jan Hammer's work with Beck
>and John McLaughlin definitely on par with the giant cohorts.
>
Oh, yeah, in a previous incarnation I wanted to BE Jan Hammer, his stuff
with Mahavishnu, and on Bolly Cobham's Spectrum record totally kills me.

>However, for me (the bassist & tightly budding guitarist), I'm sorry, but
>PLAYING the keyboard is boring to watch and not that exciting to DO
>compared to those beautifully vibrating strings over a wonderfully
>sculpted, smooth wood neck.  It's a whole lot more fun than sitting
>behind what amounts to a big hunk of furniture or, worse, a heavy chunk
>of plastic and cheap metal parts.

Try sitting over McCoy Tyner's right shoulder, then tell me that "PLAYING
the keyboard is boring", like all other things, it's the musician not
instrument. Besides, maybe I'm just funny this way, but I *listen* to
musicians, and could generally give a fuck about how they look when
playing...

>
>I love my Nord keyboard, but for sheer playing pleasure, I'd much rather
>PLAY my strat or P-bass or Modulus 5-string.  It just feeeels good, man.

But what is your main instrument? I mean, soloing, and doing it the level
of Jan Hammer or Van Halen or whatever, takes a certain level of
accomplishment on the instrument. I'm a combination bassist/keyboardist
also, started on keys, played 12 years of classical lessons and a jazz
piano performance degree, and I'm much more comfortable soloing on keys
than bass, though I've played bass for 14 years also. Could it be that the
strat or modulus (I'm jealous, man, I love modulus basses) feels better
because you play it better?

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:25:57 -0800
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Cc: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: I just can't stop writing today...
Message-Id: <v01510106b017049bb048@[128.193.5.48]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:46 AM 8/12/97, T.W. Hartnett wrote:
>I respond to Warren Sirota:
>
>
>>>
>>> > Why is it that in rock music, there's an acute shortage of "keyboard
>>>
>>> > heroes", in the same sense that say, Jeff Beck is a guitar hero?
>>> How
>>> > many breathtaking solos can you recall that were generated by
>>> something
>>> > with a piano-keyboard interface?
>>
>>Well, gee, doesn't anyone here listen to jazz? Art Tatum? Bill Evans?
>>Fats Waller? Keith Jarrett? Herbie Hancock? Oscar Peterson? There's
>>plenty of breathtaking stuff there. This does beg the question of why
>>there's such a paucity of great *rock* keyboard as compared to great
>>jazz keyboard.
>
Well, I've always had a fondness for the synthesizer solo in "Rosanna" by
Toto, lousy song, sucky sellout band, but it's a solo that rips. Also, the
minimoog solo at the end of Heart's, oh geez, now I forget which tune,
either "Barracuda" or "Magic Man" is pretty great. And I pretty much
stopped listening to pop music in the early '80's.

As far as jazz, geez, there's at least a hundred astounding keyboard
soloists. I've been listening to the new re-issue of Miles Davis "Black
Beauty" lately, highly recommended BTW, a great live record, and was struck
by how great and interesting a keyboardist Chick Corea was before getting
infected by Scientology. Also, there's Marilyn Crispell, McCoy Tyner, Cecil
Taylor, Joe Zawinul, John Medeski, etc, etc

>Yes, I was hoping someone would answer that question, but I didn't want
>to ask it.  Again, where are the keyboardists on this list?
>
>>
>>Oh, maybe you mean, "why aren't there any great *synthesizer* solos?"
>>That's easy. Synthesizers suck. (just kidding - they don't suck totally.
>>but there are many, many ways in which they truly suck.)
>
>Many, many, many.  And it's baffling--the idea is so great, but much as I
>love and use synths, any individual model of synth seems to fall short of
>analog instruments (I can hear the artillery fire already).  They don't
>hold their value, they don't hold people's interest.  Synths don't seem
>to produce a sound which is complex enough to be fascinating over the
>course of years.
>
There is such a variety of synthesizers that a blanket statement like that
is pretty much unsupportable. The earliest modular analogs make some really
terrific variable and "expressive" sounds. The next generation monophonics
like the minimoog and ARP odyssey made excellent solo instruments, I think
there's a significant body of work from the '70's to support this, Zawinul,
Corea, Hammer, etc. Sample-playback synths are basically a blight on the
face of creative music, but the newer generation of physical modeling
synths, like the korg prophecy or yamaha VL70 are wonderful solo
instruments, I have a VL70m and it really has a lot of expressive
possibilities, in fact this instrument has rekindled my interest in
monophonic keyboard soloing.

>I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the problems stem from the trend
>of using synthesizers to remove the "difficult" parts of making music.  A
>keyboard synthesizer makes it very easy to play a note--just press down
>the key and hold it.  Anyone can do it.
>The same isn't true of a violin, trumpet or guitar (and with an electric
>guitar feeding a high-gain amp, there's not inconsiderable technique
>required to play a rest). I think one of the sad truths of life is that
>if it's easy, it's probably not worth much.
>
Yeah, I totally agree here, but the best keyboardists really play their
instruments, the same as any violinist, trumpeter or guitarist. It may be
easier to sound good as a complete amatuer on a synth, but it's just as
difficult to master.


________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:26:05 -0800
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: OPINION SPAM
Message-Id: <v01510107b0170d56bd7a@[128.193.5.48]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 8:50 PM 8/12/97, Randy Jones wrote:
>Wow!
>
>Whats happening?
>Can we stop all this opinion B.S.
>Who cares what instrument you play/like.
>Who cares who your favorite artists are.
>Who cares which albums you buy.
>Who cares what you think is/isn't music.
>Who cares what you think about sampler, syths, djs, music theory, music
>philosophy or someones elses opinion on the above.
>
>No one here is going to change his/her mind based on your opinion, we just
>want to discuss hardware, software, playing, gigs and looping techniques.
>We can make up our own opinions. We just want the facts!
>
>Or am I the only one tired of getting this OPINION SPAM as email.
>
Geez, the hardware nazi's strike again. I think that one of the basic
tenets of the 'net (like the one says invoking nazism in an argument
automatically loses the argument) should go something like this," Any
attempt to discuss music on the internet must be strictly about technology,
and any attempt to discuss esthetics must immediately be shot down." You
should have known when you were getting into this list that we're a grumbly
and contemplative bunch, if you can't stand the discourse, there's always
the delete key...

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:26:09 -0800
From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel)
To: johnpollock@delphi.com
Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Recommended DJs/Electronica (Was: Re: LOOPING PHILOSOPHY (condensed))
Message-Id: <v01510108b0170f793e0d@[128.193.5.48]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:18 PM 8/12/97, John Pollock wrote:
>What I'd really like are the names of one or two or three albums which
>clearly display the work of a virtuoso DJ, unobscured by raps, vocals,
>or other musicians.  Is this asking too much?

OK, here's one: DJ Spooky's Songs of a Dead Dreamer, on Asphodel. If you
like this there's a world of cool stuff waiting for you, if you don't, and
I've receommended it to plenty of people who just don't seem to get it,
well, at least you've tried and you could probably safely say that you
don't like DJ music and be done with it.

And please, could we avoid the term "electronica" here if possible? It's an
artificial term, I believe coined by a Rolling Stone writer. None of the
DJ's or electronic musicians I know in the scene will use the word.

________________________________________________________
Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org  : www.peak.org/~improv/

"...there will come a day when you won't have to use
gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in
your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper
type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em
together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em
together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire."
                                            -Sun Ra
________________________________________________________

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:39:01 -0500
From: John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: I just can't stop writing today...
Message-id: <33F16495.4178@delphi.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Dave Trenkel wrote, in part:

> As far as jazz, geez, there's at least a hundred astounding keyboard
> soloists. I've been listening to the new re-issue of Miles Davis "Black
> Beauty" lately, highly recommended BTW, a great live record, and was struck
> by how great and interesting a keyboardist Chick Corea was before getting
> infected by Scientology. Also, there's Marilyn Crispell, McCoy Tyner, Cecil
> Taylor, Joe Zawinul, John Medeski, etc, etc

I've been steeping myself in Miles' "In a Silent Way" for the last few
weeks, and find that Zawinul and Corea get most of my attention.
 
> The earliest modular analogs make some really
> terrific variable and "expressive" sounds. The next generation monophonics
> like the minimoog and ARP odyssey made excellent solo instruments, I think
> there's a significant body of work from the '70's to support this, Zawinul,
> Corea, Hammer, etc. Sample-playback synths are basically a blight on the
> face of creative music, but the newer generation of physical modeling
> synths, like the korg prophecy or yamaha VL70 are wonderful solo
> instruments, I have a VL70m and it really has a lot of expressive
> possibilities, in fact this instrument has rekindled my interest in
> monophonic keyboard soloing.

Let me slip in a reminder of the virtues of a class of synthesizer you
didn't mention:  FM and Phase Distortion (which I maintain is the same
thing with different labels).  They're not as intuitive to program as
analog devices, and they may lack the sonic virtues of physical modeling
synths, but my Casio VZs are capable of both very strange and very
expressive sounds.
-- 
John Pollock
mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com
http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech)

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:17:06 -0500
From: John Pollock <johnpollock@delphi.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Magazines (Was: Re: Travis' comments: Cream et. al.)
Message-id: <33F16D82.291F@delphi.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

T.W. Hartnett wrote, in part:
 
> That said, GP seems to have been dumbed down in recent years, reflecting
> the declining interest in the technical aspects of guitar playing in pop
> music.

"Seems"?  SEEMS?

I let my subscription lapse after they dropped Warren Sirota's column
and turned it into a magazine about art direction... I resubscribed when
the content seemed to improve and they offered a really cheap deal,
figuring it was worth it just for the record reviews.  But when it ran
out again a few months back, I had a couple issues still unread.

It's truly a shame that a major music information resource such as GP
was ten years ago should become such a piece of crap.

The good side of GP's decline, for me, was the realization that, since
my interests were apparently so narrow that they no longer warranted
coverage in a paper publication, I'd have to get Internet access.  My
very first Web search was for the keywords "MIDI guitar"-- I didn't
_know_ there'd be a mailing list devoted to it, but I thought it pretty
likely.  Of course, that search turned up Paolo's Digital Guitar
Digest... and that's where I read about Looper's Delight... and my need
for paper publications has _greatly_ diminished. :-)
-- 
John Pollock
mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com
http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech)

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:17:56 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: LOOPING, remember?
Message-Id: <v03102805b01726e943e4@[207.171.197.84]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

It's actually completely against my nature to post this, but I'm a bit more
concerned about our own survival at the moment than free speech. Looper's
Delight is not exactly a highly regarded entity on my service provider, as
mailing lists apparently stress the mail servers. We already got blamed for
a server crash once, which wasn't our fault, but the list was turned off
for a week as a result.

So could we please veer back to the usual topic? We had a huge amount of
posts in the past 24 hours, a great many of which were not at all related
to the list topic. If we're gonna get booted, let's do it because we're
filling the bandwidth with discussions about looping. If you've drifted
well away from that, please try to police yourselves and continue in email
or the alt newsgroups.

thanks,

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:01:29 -0400
From: David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer@exapps.com>
To: Looper's Delight <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Do comparisons lead to false truths? (was RE: Guitar good, DJ's b
	ad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY))
Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F19B80B@mail.exapps.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

This thread is getting quite philisphical and possibly instructive.

The question I want to ask is -- if 1 Billion people are "moved" by the
sound of an electric guitar, does that make the experience of being
"moved" by a violin felt in just 50 people less "moving" to these 50
people.  Briefly, is their experience any less "moving" than the
experence felt by the guitar fans?

If you say "No," then I think this is acknowledging how individual
emotional responses are not "measurably comparable" as say the weights
bassoons and hammond organs  :-)

If you say "Yes," then I don't know what you are measuring.  Please
explain this to me.

I feel the desire to compare A to B is compelling and oftentimes useful,
but ultimately denies both A and B the truths of their "Now" experience.
If I think to myself while I'm playing guitar and I'm "sailing" with my
muse, "I wonder if MY HERO sails 'higher' than me when (S)HE is
sailing?" doesn't that steal from MY 'sailing' experience?

I'm not a student of philosophy, and maybe this thread is wearing thin
now, but I suspect the philosphy of comparisons can dig us into some
complex territory.

david

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	T.W. Hartnett [SMTP:hartnett.t@apple.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, August 12, 1997 11:13 AM
> To:	Looper's Delight
> Subject:	Re: Guitar good, DJ's bad, etc (was LOOPING PHILOSOPHY)
> 
> 
> <snip>
>   
> I don't think anyone can argue with statements such as "I'd rather
> hear a 
> really good musician on one instrument than a really bad one on
> another". 
>  
> It might be more interesting to compare musicians at the top of the
> skill 
> spectrum, rather than at opposing ends.  
> 
> Travis

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:27:39 -0600
From: John Michael Beard <jbstudio@centurion.flash.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Guitar good,etc,Now Jobson Solo
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970813122739.00696610@pop.flash.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 02:58 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, future perfect wrote:
>
>> > There's no "Eruption", that I know of, in the keyboard world--a recorded
>> > moment which changed the way the instrument, and the role of the
>> > instrument would be viewed for the next decade.  
>> 
>> Actually, there was an 'Eruption' of the Keyboard world...the first song
>> on ELP's 'Tarkus' album, and unlike VH's, this one's in 5.
>> Dave
>>   
>There is also Eddie Jobson's "Presto Vivace" from his UK days. 
>An amazing piece.
>    Doug Michael
>
 Also his solo on Zappa's "I Promise Not To Come In Your Mouth" from Live
In New York [the title track of Lather is the same]. A beautiful song.
 I'm a guitarist by the way, and if nothing else it's an easier instrument
for me to play than any other.

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 97 12:32:51 -0600
From: "mmason"<mmason@faulkcomp.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: CGDAEG tuning
Message-Id: <9708138714.AA871494040@fsmtp.faulkcomp.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

     Travis wrote:
     
     >> As someone who plays in CGDAEG, and who played in EADGBE for a 
     decade <<
     
     Did you take a Guitar Craft class, Travis?
     
     Jay or Boris
     mmason@faulkcomp.com 

--------------------------------