------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 154

Today's Topics:
  RE: jammidimystery                    [ "Hogan, Greg" <ghogan@lexicon.com> ]
  Any thoughts for Gibson Mgt?          [ David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer@exa ]
  Oberheim is moving                    [ Ed Drake <ejmd@erols.com> ]
  Re: Oberheim is moving                [ Rik Elswit <rik@well.com> ]
  Re: Any thoughts for Gibson Mgt?      [ Scot Gresham-Lancaster <scot@csuhay ]
  Re: jammidimystery                    [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ]
  Re: jammidimystery                    [ Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com> ]
  Re: Any thoughts for Gibson Mgt?      [ Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com> ]
  RE: jammidimystery                    [ "Sellon, Bob" <bsellon@lexicon.com> ]

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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:06:33 -0400
From: "Hogan, Greg" <ghogan@lexicon.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: jammidimystery
Message-Id: <215C1D5A0FFDD011B3CC00805FC18C290F0521@NTSRV2.LEXICON.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi Phil, 

I have a few questions for you:Are the JAMMANs MIDI connections
connected in series or in parallel?  If they are in series have you
tried reversing the order of the two to see if the symptom changes?
When the JAMMANs are set up in series the first machine will provide a
master clock to the second one which in turn will define the length of
the loops.  When the JAMMEN are set up this way a second tap command
sent to the second(SLEVE) machine will be ignored because it already
knows how long it's loop will be.

I would be happy to help you sort this out.  Please let me know if you
have any questions or if there is anything that I can do for you.

Best regards,

Greg Hogan
Lexicon Customer Service
Phone 617-280-0372
FAX 617-280-0499


> ----------
> From: 	Phil Diem[SMTP:pdiem@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu]
> Reply To: 	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 16, 1997 12:15 AM
> To: 	GHogan@lexicon.com
> Subject: 	jammidimystery
> 
> Has anyone else had problems brothersyncing two jammen via midi?
> 
> Yesterday I converted to midi control by connecting a DMC Ground
> Control 
> (v2.4) to two jammen. I programed the GC to transmit on ch 1 and
> loaded 
> the presets to send the correct midi program change numbers. When I
> tap 
> in a loop: 1. sometimes jam #1 starts recording solo and when I tap
> out 
> #2 starts recording immediately 2. sometimes they both start recording
> 
> together on the first tap (this is how I expected things to work) 3. 
> sometimes #2 doesn't start recording until the third tap (with #1 
> layering). There seems to be no predictable pattern and I never know 
> which sequence I'll be dealing with until I get into it. And 
> unfortunately, reset works fine and resets both units simultaneously.
> 
> Tonight, I unhooked the GC but left the jammen brothersynced, and
> tried 
> using the lexicon footswitches to control them. Surprise! The lexicon 
> switches didn't work properly either.
> Tap out required 3-7 taps before recording would stop and the loop
> would 
> start playing???
> I tried switching the sync cable; in to out on #1, and out to in on
> #2, 
> no change. I tried a different midi cable and still no change. When I 
> went back to no midi cable - unsynced - the lexicon footswitches
> worked 
> properly. The GC also works fine with either jamman individually.
> 
> So I don't have a clue as to what's going on, or why. Any helpful 
> suggestions will be very much appreciated!
> 
> Phil
> 
> 

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:57:36 -0400
From: David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer@exapps.com>
To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Any thoughts for Gibson Mgt?
Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F0486E5@MAIL>
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi

Do you want to share communicate something about the Oberheim EDP to
managers at Gibson?

As I'm sending a package to Gibson soon, I thought others may have
things they would like to share / communicate with Gibson managers.   I
can add them as a separate bundle of printouts. 

Reply to:   dkirkdorffer@exapps.com


I hope to be back to actual looping and maybe even a discussion about
MUSIC soon!


david

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:15:52 -0500
From: Ed Drake <ejmd@erols.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Oberheim is moving
Message-Id: <l03110700b04478aca2c2@[207.172.62.95]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Paul Drescher posted this to LD:

>I just spoke with Pat Murphy at Oberheim/Gibson Customer Support in
>Nashville.  Upgrade PROMs appear to be in transit in the move from Oakland
>back to Nashville.  He thought about a week or so.....

I also just talked to Pat at Oberheim and he gave me more info. Oberheim is
closing the Oakland, CA facility and moving everything back to Nashville,
which he said should result in better service etc, after a little down time
to set everything back up. He said part of the problem with service and
info about Plexes in the past was because of lack of or mis-communication
between Customer Service in Nashville and the plant in Oakland, CA so with
everything under one roof maybe the right hand will now know what the left
hand is doing. As someone who has had a Plex on order since April 1st (Am I
a fool or what? ;-) he asked me to please be patient. I guess all of this
sounds like good news but we'll have to see how it shakes out. Also he said
Dean Fouts is working full time for Slingerland Drums, so he is no longer
at Obie Customer Service. I guess the contact person is Pat now.
<pmurphy@gibson.com> .

Later   Ed

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:54:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rik Elswit <rik@well.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re:  Oberheim is moving
Message-Id: <199709161754.KAA24352@well.com>

As a dealer, let me add to Ed Drake's post about Pat Murphy and Oberheim.
For the first time in almost a year, I have somone from Oberheim calling me
with information and updates.  I used to have to call the company 5 and 6
times just to get someone to call me back an tell me they don't have any
news for me.  I have the feeling that things are turning around over there.

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:59:33 -0700
From: Scot Gresham-Lancaster <scot@csuhayward.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Any thoughts for Gibson Mgt?
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19970916105933.007b58d0@pmail1.csuhayward.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:57 AM 9/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Do you want to share communicate something about the Oberheim EDP to
>managers at Gibson?

I have been a lurker on this list for a 6 months or so, but events of
yesterday have lifted my cloaking device. On a tip from a friend, I went by
the now defunct offices of Oberheim in Oakland. They are in the process of
moving the entire operation to the main office of Gibson in Nashville. This
goes a long way to explaining the delays that everyone has been
experiencing. All the echoplex business both on paper and actual units
(including the new ROMs and the new run of Echoplex Digital Pro units) are
in transit to their new home in Nashville. End of Story. (Hopefully) If
Gibson has any business sense, and I am sure they do, they will feverishly
shipping and filling orders as soon as the new set up is in place.

I should note that if production would have continued in Oakland there
would have been a fresh shipment of Echoplexes earlier this month by way of
Oakland. This means that the units are assembled and tested and just
waiting processing to be shipped. So hold tight. If in two weeks they don't
have this sorted out, then I would recommend going berserk.

With regards to thoughts about Gibson's management. I think it is a pity
that Tom Oberheim, through no fault of his own, lost control of his
company. I worked at Oberheim in the late 70's and have great deal of
respect for Tom as a designer and innovator. This is a case where the
pitbull aspect of global economics sucks and works to no ones advantage.
Tom genuinely cared about the products he helped develop in an ineffible
way that respected the bottom line, but, ultimately, put music making
first. First with the move from LA and now this one to Nashville we see the
legacy of this concept weakened. Gibson must, of course, keep the profit
margin in sight with each of these decisions, but what will make this
division thrive and be profitable is the infusion of integrity and just
"giving a good god damn" that makes anything of worth rise above the rest. 

 
Scot Gresham-Lancaster
< Composer, Performer, Instrument Designer, Consultant, Educator >
ph: 510-885-3150   fax:510-885-3146
email: scot@csuhayward.edu
www: http://tesla.csuhayward.edu/~scot   
(click on my picture there to get a bio)

The market place is where greedy people cooperate. A community takes
imagination....Robert Haas

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:24:07 +0200
From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: jammidimystery
Message-Id: <v01520d00b0447b4d6b82@[205.177.25.43]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Has anyone else had problems brothersyncing two jammen via midi?
>
>

I had a similar problem a last week. Having picked up a third jam man, I
wanted to be able to set up two of them on the same MIDI channel so that,
at least theoretically, I could capture the stereo effects off of my
Vortex, and or Filterbank, or my partners Eventide. However when I used the
MIDI out of either jam man I ran into the same situation when triggering
from a Digitech PMC-10.

The first tap would start the first jam man. The next tap would start the
second. I did not have a lot of time to explore other options, so I let it
go any light that Greg or others could shed on this is appreciated.....

Patrick


 ***  ***    ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html  ***  **

  

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:51:05 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@chromatic.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: jammidimystery
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970917025105.008e3c70@pop.chromatic.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I had always heard that the jamman wasn't capable of this sort of stereo
hookup, presumably for the reasons you guys are discovering. Does anyone
know if that is true?

BTW, I think it's cool that the "BrotherSync" term is drifting free of the
echoplex and becoming a generalized word. It's a good term, invented by
Matthias. Properly though, it means that none of the machines is a master,
and none a slave. All are Brothers, and any can define the beat. Classic
Matthias....

kim
 

At 08:24 PM 9/16/97 +0200, Patrick Smith wrote:
>>Has anyone else had problems brothersyncing two jammen via midi?
>>
>>
>
>I had a similar problem a last week. Having picked up a third jam man, I
>wanted to be able to set up two of them on the same MIDI channel so that,
>at least theoretically, I could capture the stereo effects off of my
>Vortex, and or Filterbank, or my partners Eventide. However when I used the
>MIDI out of either jam man I ran into the same situation when triggering
>from a Digitech PMC-10.
>
>The first tap would start the first jam man. The next tap would start the
>second. I did not have a lot of time to explore other options, so I let it
>go any light that Greg or others could shed on this is appreciated.....
>
>Patrick
>
>
> ***  ***    ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html  ***  **
>
>  
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________
Kim Flint		       408-752-9284
Mpact System Engineering       kflint@chromatic.com
Chromatic Research             http://www.chromatic.com

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:13:20 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Any thoughts for Gibson Mgt?
Message-Id: <v03102802b045bb240dd8@[207.171.198.119]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>At 09:57 AM 9/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Do you want to share communicate something about the Oberheim EDP to
>>managers at Gibson?
>
>I have been a lurker on this list for a 6 months or so, but events of
>yesterday have lifted my cloaking device. On a tip from a friend, I went by
>the now defunct offices of Oberheim in Oakland.

Did you score any good deals on the furniture? I got office chairs,
bookshelves, metal storage cabinets with Oberheim stickers on them,
adjustable lab chairs, and other good stuff. Live/work space heaven. It was
going cheap....

>They are in the process of
>moving the entire operation to the main office of Gibson in Nashville.

yup. I talked to them the other day. They are indicating that this is a
serious effort to turn things around at Oberheim, so we'll see.


>With regards to thoughts about Gibson's management. I think it is a pity
>that Tom Oberheim, through no fault of his own, lost control of his
>company. I worked at Oberheim in the late 70's and have great deal of
>respect for Tom as a designer and innovator. This is a case where the
>pitbull aspect of global economics sucks and works to no ones advantage.
>Tom genuinely cared about the products he helped develop in an ineffible
>way that respected the bottom line, but, ultimately, put music making
>first. First with the move from LA and now this one to Nashville we see the
>legacy of this concept weakened. Gibson must, of course, keep the profit
>margin in sight with each of these decisions, but what will make this
>division thrive and be profitable is the infusion of integrity and just
>"giving a good god damn" that makes anything of worth rise above the rest.

Tom is a really great guy. I've gotten to know him fairly well over the
last year. (oddly enough, I met him after leaving gibson. By some cosmic
coincidence we worked together at Chromatic Research.) His story is quite
tragic, and it has been repeated quite a few times in the music industry.
Synthesizer pioneers mostly, for some reason. To be fair, Tom actually lost
the company to his own lawyer, through some seriously evil financial
arrangements. The lawyer then sold it to Gibson some time later. Gibson
hasn't ever figured out how to make Oberheim succeed, hopefully the third
time is the charm. It would be nice if Tom could get something out of it
someday.

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:20:35 -0400
From: "Sellon, Bob" <bsellon@lexicon.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: jammidimystery
Message-Id: <215C1D5A0FFDD011B3CC00805FC18C290F05C9@NTSRV2.LEXICON.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain

Phil,
I'm not familiar with the term "brothersync". Are both systems sending
sync information to eachother?

Regardless, the JamMen can't be configured to cleanly work in stereo.
Unfortunately, it was not considered when the product was spec'd and
designed, wasn't tested in-house and apparently doesn't work. When asked
about this before, the only suggestion I could come up with was to feed
the MIDI commands to the two independent systems in parallel and run
them open loop. The lock in this configuration is coarse at best however
due to the lack of a synce between systems and the latency of the
system's response to incoming MIDI commands. It's been a few years since
I looked at it but I suspect that using MIDI commands could decrease the
responsiveness/resolution by as much as 10ms (it may very well be less)
compared to standard JamMan resolution of 0.5ms. With 10ms of slop, it
won't take long to hear the delta. In the best possible case, the
systems will never be locked at a sample level so there will always be
drift and you will not get proper stereo imaging (even briefly I
suspect). 

Regarding the odd behavior; I suspect that, as Greg Hogan suggested, the
second system is attempting to slave to incoming MIDI clock so it
ignores or misinterprets the second tap. During product development
there were precious few systems available so not a whole lot of
multi-unit testing was done. Apparently systems are not supposed to
"soft" thru MIDI data but we added it in fairly late in development
anyway so that 2 JamMen could be used together without a MIDI
merger/splitter (albeit not in stereo). Part of the problems with trying
to cascade the JamMen (brothersync?) is that the CPU in JamMan that
handles MIDI (a measly 4MHz Z80) also has to manage the realtime looping
without missing a beat. The audio and MIDI clock are the highest
priorities so MIDI thru operations can be delayed (the aformentioned
10ms). 

I wish I had better news but thats the way it is. Sorry.

Bob Sellon
Lexicon/Stec

> ----------
> From: 	Phil Diem[SMTP:pdiem@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu]
> Reply To: 	Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 16, 1997 12:15 AM
> To: 	bsellon@lexicon.com
> Subject: 	jammidimystery
> 
> Has anyone else had problems brothersyncing two jammen via midi?
> 
> Yesterday I converted to midi control by connecting a DMC Ground
> Control 
> (v2.4) to two jammen. I programed the GC to transmit on ch 1 and
> loaded 
> the presets to send the correct midi program change numbers. When I
> tap 
> in a loop: 
> 
> 1. sometimes jam #1 starts recording solo and when I tap out 
> #2 starts recording immediately 
> 
> 2. sometimes they both start recording 
> together on the first tap (this is how I expected things to work) 
> 
> 3.sometimes #2 doesn't start recording until the third tap (with #1 
> layering). 
> 
> There seems to be no predictable pattern and I never know 
> which sequence I'll be dealing with until I get into it. And 
> unfortunately, reset works fine and resets both units simultaneously.
> 
> Tonight, I unhooked the GC but left the jammen brothersynced, and
> tried 
> using the lexicon footswitches to control them. Surprise! The lexicon 
> switches didn't work properly either.
> Tap out required 3-7 taps before recording would stop and the loop
> would 
> start playing???
> I tried switching the sync cable; in to out on #1, and out to in on
> #2, 
> no change. I tried a different midi cable and still no change. When I 
> went back to no midi cable - unsynced - the lexicon footswitches
> worked 
> properly. The GC also works fine with either jamman individually.
> 
> So I don't have a clue as to what's going on, or why. Any helpful 
> suggestions will be very much appreciated!
> 
> Phil
> 
> 

--------------------------------