------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 156

Today's Topics:
  RE: jammidimystery                    [ Phil Diem <pdiem@edcen.ehhs.cmich.e ]
  Re: Loopers-Delight-d Digest V97 #15  [ malone <malone@arts.usf.edu> ]
  music                                 [ Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com> ]
  Re: music                             [ Steven Dubofsky <skullsaw@gti.net> ]
  Re: music                             [ The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.cal ]
  RE: jammidimystery                    [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias  ]
  Re: music                             [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pyc ]
  Old loopers never die, they just...(  [ "Julia & Dave" <jndk@colba.net> ]
  Re: Music                             [ Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) ]

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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 22:12:58 -0000
From: Phil Diem <pdiem@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: RE: jammidimystery
Message-Id: <m0xBW0l-000RYCC@edcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Bob,

In reply to my ongoing problems trying to get my two Jamthings to buddy 
up via midi connection you wrote:

>I'm not familiar with the term "brothersync". Are both systems sending
>sync information to eachother?

As I am now begining to more fully understand the term, which Kim Flint 
credits Matthias Grob with coining, yes - no slave, no master, brothers. 
Apparently the Echoplex has the capability to interact in this manner.

>Regardless, the JamMen can't be configured to cleanly work in stereo.
>Unfortunately, it was not considered when the product was spec'd and
>designed, wasn't tested in-house and apparently doesn't work.

Why does page 21 of the Jammanual contradict this statement? (This is a 
rhetorical question. I do not disbelieve your statement, nor do I believe 
that you are in any way responsible for what is printed in the manual.)

>When asked about this before, the only suggestion I could come up with was to 
>feed the MIDI commands to the two independent systems in parallel and run
>them open loop. The lock in this configuration is coarse at best however
>due to the lack of a synce between systems and the latency of the
>system's response to incoming MIDI commands.

Could both be paralleled to one external clock for sync lock and then run 
on open loop independantly?

>It's been a few years since
>I looked at it but I suspect that using MIDI commands could decrease the
>responsiveness/resolution by as much as 10ms (it may very well be less)
>compared to standard JamMan resolution of 0.5ms. With 10ms of slop, it
>won't take long to hear the delta. In the best possible case, the
>systems will never be locked at a sample level so there will always be
>drift and you will not get proper stereo imaging (even briefly I suspect). 

I think that few of us loopers would argue that the drift which results 
from looping unsynced 
can be extraordinarily beautiful at times but I, at least, have found 
that it can be equally annoying at other times. As for increased time lag 
using midi control, I seem to recall several people on the list reporting 
improvement when they switched from the Lexicon footswitches to 
midipedal. Personally, I haven't noticed any difficulty with the midi 
signals arriving late. My problem seems to be that the signals are not 
always interpreted the same way/correctly.

>Regarding the odd behavior; I suspect that, as Greg Hogan suggested, the
>second system is attempting to slave to incoming MIDI clock so it
>ignores or misinterprets the second tap. During product development
>there were precious few systems available so not a whole lot of
>multi-unit testing was done. Apparently systems are not supposed to
>"soft" thru MIDI data but we added it in fairly late in development
>anyway so that 2 JamMen could be used together without a MIDI
>merger/splitter (albeit not in stereo).

This answers my last statement, and my original post.

>Part of the problems with trying to cascade the JamMen (brothersync?) 
>is that the CPU in JamMan that handles MIDI (a measly 4MHz Z80) also 
>has to manage the realtime looping without missing a beat. 
>The audio and MIDI clock are the highest priorities so MIDI thru 
>operations can be delayed (the aformentioned 10ms).

Is the CPU upgradeable? 

>I wish I had better news but thats the way it is. Sorry.

Has Lexicon responded to your proposal for licensing the code? If this 
happens (the upgrade) can/will any of these problems be addressed?

Both Greg Hogan, Lexicon Customer Service and Bob Sellon, Stech/Lexicon 
have been extremely responsive and helpful? ;-) in my time of need. In 
this respect Lexicon is way ahead of many other companies, who still 
"just don't get it." It's really great that Greg and Bob are on the list! 
Thanks guys. I'll just keep noodling around until I come up with 
something that works for me (or until plexs finally arrive).

Phil

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 97 23:45:03 -0500
From: malone <malone@arts.usf.edu>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Loopers-Delight-d Digest V97 #154
Message-Id: <199709180343.XAA25096@satie.arts.usf.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Hello Everyone,

     I just wanted to say that I have finally received my new Echoplex, 
and I couldn't be happier. I am coming from the JamMan "camp", by no 
means a disastisfied customer from Lexicon, rather I wanted to give the 
'plex a try based on everything I've heard. I was surprised to see how 
easy and friendly the interface was. I had a manual to preview before it 
came, and was concerned that with so many options, it would be difficult 
to use. Not at all. I was up and running in minutes. I've only just begun 
to experiment with it, but my initial contact with it has been great.

SM

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:33:40 -0700
From: Kim Flint <kflint@annihilist.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: music
Message-Id: <v03102803b046850e7ced@[207.171.198.133]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

So, once again the list has gone off the gear deep-end, which is ok,
everyone has those questions sometimes and we're all a bunch of closet
gear-nerds anyway. Certainly better than the "who's better guitarists,
dj's, or bassoonists" flame fest a while back. But after a while gear gets
damned tedious, and we kind of forget that this is all really about music.
So how about we pull up some music oriented topics again?

So how about this, what music are you all listening to these days? Which
artists are inspiring you for looping or otherwise? If I go to the record
store on Saturday, what should I get?

Here's another one we haven't delved into for a long time: What is it about
looping that makes it interesting, fun, musical?  Why do we want to do it?
Why does it show up in so many types of music? Is it something in human
nature, learned from culture, what?

Also, it's getting darned embarrassing that the Loop Artists section of the
web site has 0 on it. Which artists belong there? And even more important,
does anyone want to volunteer to do anything about that? Maybe take on that
section? Looper's Delight exists through the good efforts of many people
who volunteer a little or a lot of time. Anything will help, learn html for
the loop cause....

ok, now discuss.....

kim

______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                   | Looper's Delight
kflint@annihilist.com       | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html
http://www.annihilist.com/  | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:05:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven Dubofsky <skullsaw@gti.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: music
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.970918035902.12785C-100000@apollo.gti.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> 
> So how about this, what music are you all listening to these days? Which
> artists are inspiring you for looping or otherwise? If I go to the record
> store on Saturday, what should I get?

Besides the occasional Eno or Fripp nothing loop related here:)
> 
> Here's another one we haven't delved into for a long time: What is it about
> looping that makes it interesting, fun, musical?  Why do we want to do it?
> Why does it show up in so many types of music? Is it something in human
> nature, learned from culture, what?

Why do I do it. Because it's just so damn addictive. It's one of the few
musical activities that I can do for hours on end. One thing I like is how
I can make a big sound by my lonesome, spontaneosly<sp>, no need to fire
up my computer, sequencer, sundries( unless I want to). I like how I never
repeat myself, every loop session is unique. I find listening to loop
based music almost instinctive, it hits me deep in my brain, not my hips
or gut. I dunno, I just like it.


steve d           
         

          Avoid using Skullsaw in excessive heat or humidity
        or where he may be affected by direct sunlight or dust
          
                     http://www.gti.net/skullsaw

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:20:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Man Himself <altruist@shoko.calarts.edu>
To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: music
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.91.970918005830.2750A-100000@shoko.calarts.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Kim Flint wrote:

> So, once again the list has gone off the gear deep-end, which is ok,
> everyone has those questions sometimes and we're all a bunch of closet
> gear-nerds anyway.

Up until the last bit ("we're all...") I thought you might be talkig 
about something *completely* different.  But that's a whole 'nother 
subject ENTIRELY.

> So how about this, what music are you all listening to these days? Which
> artists are inspiring you for looping or otherwise? If I go to the record
> store on Saturday, what should I get?

Two CDs I've really enjoyed lately are the new Photek, _Modus Operandi_,
and an album by a guy who goes by the moniker of Squarepusher called _Hard
Normal Daddy_.  The Photek album I didn't like at first; I thought it was
a serious letdown after the _Hidden Camera_ E.P., but it's starting to
grow on me.  It definitely has to be dealt with on its own terms.  The
Squarepusher album is similar to the _Richard D. James_ album by Aphex
Twin, except the whimsical classical elements of that disc are replaced on
_HND_ by '70s-style fusion moves a la Jaco Pastorious and Weather Report
(the guy behind Squarepusher is one mean bassist on top of his
programming).  Like the Aphex Twin disc, it's one of the few sample-based
records I've heard that seems to warrant the term "virtuosic." 

These are both very recent jungle/drum 'n bass albums; Photek tends
towards sparse, detached, almost chilly minimalism and precision, while
the Squarepusher disc is a much more splatter-oriented affair, constantly
changing points of view and shifting gears.  Photek is regarded as one of
the elite junglists, often regarded as being beyond reproach (in those
circles anyway) and Squarepusher is sort of the "bad boy"/love him or hate
him member of that crowd, so they're both good listening for those (like
me) who are trying to get into drum 'n bass but who have been a bit
disenchanted by the lighter, more ambient side of the music (a la LTJ
Bukem, etc).  The Photek album just came out last week; the Squarepusher
material is only available on import, so far as I know. 

(See, Kim?  I *told* you I like this stuff!  8-P )

--Andre

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 05:45:42 -0300
From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: RE: jammidimystery
Message-Id: <v03007801b0469a23dc6e@[200.254.32.113]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bob wondered:

>I'm not familiar with the term "brothersync". Are both systems sending
>sync information to eachother?

Yes, its an open collector line and all member of the family wait for the
slowest one to stay together.

Matthias

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:22:52 +0100
From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: music
Message-Id: <11052.199709181022@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>So how about this, what music are you all listening to these days? Which
>artists are inspiring you for looping or otherwise? If I go to the record
>store on Saturday, what should I get?

Sorry, I'm listening to Wes Montgomery right now.... great music, not too
much looping!

>Here's another one we haven't delved into for a long time: What is it about
>looping that makes it interesting, fun, musical? 

It's the most fun you can have on your own!

>Also, it's getting darned embarrassing that the Loop Artists section of the
>web site has 0 on it. Which artists belong there? And even more important,
>does anyone want to volunteer to do anything about that?

I think I offered this one a little while ago...
I suggested to Kim that at least what was required were links to webpages
supporting loop artists - ie links to Ton's page, Elephant Talk, etc etc.
If we collect these together I'll HTMLise them.

Send them to me with the heading FOR LOOP PAGE or somethin else in CAPITALS
so I can see 'em better.

Michael

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:16:38 -0700
From: "Julia & Dave" <jndk@colba.net>
To: "Looper's Delight" <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Old loopers never die, they just...(Re:music)
Message-Id: <199709181218.IAA31455@mail.colba.net>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi,

I may be banished for admitting this, but I haven't looped in a while.
I just got bored with the "sampleness" of it all.  Now, I prefer long
delays, which technically speaking aren't really loops and synth
drones that aren't going thru envelope generators.  Droner's Delight?
Hypnotic repetition is a bit more interesting when once in a few bars,
a kink appears in the sound.  This is perhaps what made tape echoes
more interesting than digital delays.

I understand that an infinite repeat switch is crucial in guitar based
loop music, unless your instrument sustains forever, but I think that
in order to make synth based looping more appealing, one must
throw in a random element once in a while.   

Waxing,

D 4 V 1 D    K R 1 5 T 1 4 N
 
"Echo is instant nostalgia."                                               
                                            
                                                                           
                                                                      

------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:27:35 -0400
From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata)
To: 'Loopers Delight' <loopers-delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Music
Message-ID: <01BCC415.1A70F920@mark.asisoftware.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Kim wrote:

>So, once again the list has gone off the gear deep-end, which is ok,
>everyone has those questions sometimes and we're all a bunch of closet
>gear-nerds anyway. Certainly better than the "who's better guitarists,
>dj's, or bassoonists" flame fest a while back. But after a while gear gets
>damned tedious, and we kind of forget that this is all really about music.
>So how about we pull up some music oriented topics again?

>So how about this, what music are you all listening to these days? Which
>artists are inspiring you for looping or otherwise? If I go to the record
>store on Saturday, what should I get?

I've been listening to:

- "Beatles Anthology 2" - It contains insights into shaping a bare bones composition into a finished work of art and an interesting pre-historic loop on "Tomorrow Never Knows."

- "Ginger Baker Trio 2" - No looping, but interesting interplay between Frisell, Charlie Haden and Ginger Baker.

- "Brown Album" by Primus - Man, how can you play so weird and sell so many records?  Also, Larry LaLonde is one of the most under-rated guitarists ever.

- "Earthling" by David Bowie - Reeves Gabrel sure makes some interesting sounds with his Roland VG-8.  And it's always nice to hear interesting compositions in which the guitar part contributes to the song and not to the player's ego.

>Here's another one we haven't delved into for a long time: What is it about
>looping that makes it interesting, fun, musical?  Why do we want to do it?
>Why does it show up in so many types of music? Is it something in human
>nature, learned from culture, what?

Sometimes I like to make long (32 second) loops with my Jamman.  However, I've recently disconnected it from my rig and have been concentrating on short loops (1.8 seconds or lesss) or programming weird effects with my Vortex.

I like to loop because there appear to be no musicians in the Detroit area who are interested in forming a Top-40 band that makes money.

Mark Kata
Mark@asisoftware.com

--------------------------------