------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 159 Today's Topics: Music Discussion Questions and 'Home [ "Stephen P. Goodman" ] Final footnote? Oberheim Echoplex Di [ David Kirkdorffer ] Re: music [ GILGOOD@aol.com ] MacMan [ mark sottilaro Mac programs [ "Matt McCabe" ] Re: music ---> Mac programs [ "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Music Discussion Questions and 'Home Frippertronics' Message-Id: <199709181933.MAA29676@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Edward_Chang@mail.amsinc.com intoned: > > Why loop? > The root reason is because unique rhythmic textures can be readily > created in a short amount of time. Also when I'm creating loops, it > feels similar to mixing chemicals to create an unusual mixture, or > painting over and over different parts of a canvas. To each his own! My own migration into this area had less to do with quick execution than it did with the quasi-organic nature of repetition; the thing that made it possible for me was being temporarily able to afford buying a 7.6-second Digitech unit for less than $150 used. From my standpoint, the process had to not be complicated, in order to not impede performance. The last thing I want is to have to use someone else to operate equipment. Also, I wanted to approach the idea of the Home Piano, that time-honoured prop of Culture, which one could also just sit down and bang on, should one wished to, without having to 'turn anything on' besides your brain. I've already documented my setup a number of times, so I won't go into it here - but another major interest in making the setup was that it have as few components as possible, resulting in fewer noise leaks. As far as the Home Piano idea, though, it's nice to be able to 'just lay it down', I admit. It's just that, if I'm going to pretend that I'm performing this material, I have to be able to recreate the pieces from memory. So I have that consideration every time I sit down for a new piece. Ultimately there is very little improv in the actual published works. But the ones that I'll put together at home that constitute either raw textures, or candidates for The Loop Of The Week (see my page if you haven't yet), are almost I-Ching-Like in their result. However I feel at the time - as long as I can maintain transparency - usually translates well into the texture resulting. Sometimes I have to turn off the unit just to think of the track being eliminated altogether, if it sounds Dark enough. I could go on but no. Stephen Goodman * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios EarthLight Productions * Get the Loop Of The Week Free! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:45:40 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: intentions and effects Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 12:51 AM -0400 9/15/97, Russell Gorton wrote: > >>4) I like looping tv voices and playing them backwards. Classic ambient >>technique...nothing like good old backwards play! It worked for the >>Beatles AND Judas Priest! > >Hey! We didn't put reverse in there so you could easily make satanic >records like those evil heavy metal bands, why I......oh, wait....yes that >is why we put reverse in there. never mind.... ;-) We certainly put every little feature with good intentions into the unit. To create peace in the world or something. But since the big goals are too complex for us to understand how to achieve then anyway, we are just happy about every new idea how to use the unit to make someone feel fine. In other words, I learned to pass the message through the music, rather than through features (or the omission of them!) in a invention. And even the music can be understood very differently, so I have to be happy if someone understands something that pops up in HIS mind, which is much more important than the message I "intended". I was touched that the intention of BrotherSync was interpreted here anyway. Thanks Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:48:00 EST From: Edward_Chang@mail.amsinc.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music Message-Id: <9708188746.AA874623023@mail.amsinc.com> This has happened to me as well, not just with loop projects but also other types of pieces. This also has happened with new records. Somebody mentioned the David Toop disc (Pink Noir?) which I bought based on high recomendation from respected sources, but when I first heard it I thought it sucked. But a week later I put it on and I started to like it more. Now I actually think it was worth it and is kinda inspiring. Anyway, my theory is that 'alien/possibly great' sounds/concepts can sound bad even to the genius-composer at the time of creation because it doesn't fit comfortably in his/her familiar sound-world. But later you realize - Dang!...I never heard nuttin' like this before! It's kind'r neat! The reverse logic holds true for the corollary you mentioned: 1. Wow! This sounds just like Brian Eno's Greatest Moment! 2. Damn...this sounds just like Brian Eno's Greatest Moment. ed chang The corollary of this, of course, is that often when i immediately think on first listen that i've created something quite magical, two weeks later i don't really care for it. Even then, i'll ask for other opinions, and they are often in agreement with my own. "Oh... ummm....that's...well....yeah....ummm, not some of your better stuff, man." Anybody else experience this? This certainly isn't the rule. I mean, on creating a loop i really like i don't immediately think, "Ah schitt, this sounds amazing to me--it must suck." But the scenario above happens to me quite often. I haven't really meditated enough on this to figure out why. Any thoughts? Pete Koniuto ----------------- Music Library Boston University 617-353-3705 pkoniuto@bu.edu ----------------- (See attached file: RFC822.TXT) Received: from ams.amsinc.com by mail.amsinc.com (SMTPLINK V2.11.01) ; Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:20:28 EST Return-Path: Received: from ferret (ferret.slip.net) by ams.amsinc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29811; Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:26:56 EDT Received: from lists by ferret with local (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0xBm7X-00065X-00; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:20:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:18:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Pete Koniuto To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music In-Reply-To: <199709181604.JAA22656@gw1.bi-tech.com> Message-Id: Resent-Message-Id: <"khEXbD.A.OiF.O6XI0"@ferret> Resent-From: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/571 Precedence: list Resent-Sender: SmartList Resent-To: Edward_Chang@mail.amsinc.com Resent-Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:20:11 -0700 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:53:27 -0700 From: Tom Attix To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: music Message-ID: <41DE695CE6FCCF11AD1000805FCCF8EC36D1AF@SF-01-MSG.dns.microsoft.com> In the visual arts its pretty normal to not make up your mind about a piece until you've lived with it a few weeks (or months or years). This runs totally counter to the Buddhist approach of creating the work and then completely letting go of it (which they accomplish by destroying the piece). > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Koniuto [SMTP:pkoniuto@bu.edu] > Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 12:27 PM > To: Tom Attix > Subject: Re: music > > > > On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Matt McCabe wrote: > > > Why loop? > > > > Because there's always the potential of creating something beautiful > and > > magic.....and then you turn your gear off and it's gone...but you > really > > don't mourn it's loss (the loop) because you know the potential to > do it > > again is still there...only in a different form. > > > > Matt > > Interesting. I've read similar comments on this list > in the past. But for me it's a little different. Very > often i'll create a loop, sit back and listen to it, > and end up quite displeased with the results of what > felt like a very cathartic creative experience. The > process was the experience of the evening and not what > was produced. > > But usually, being an archivist at heart, i'll throw > the loop down to DAT anyway once i'm finished (that is, > if i was too entranced at that delicious moment just > before the loop's "genesis" to remember to hit record > before i began). > > Then, say two days later, i'll listen back to what > was created and think not so badly of it and find > a few good things there that i may try to incorporate > into a future attempt. Then a week later i'll find > myself hearing things i hadn't heard before, > relationships, textural movement, distant subtleties, > and i'll think, "Schitt, that ain't bad! Maybe i'll > run it by a second and third pair of ears." And they > often blow people away, these little creations that > kind of annoyed me the night they were born. And > sometimes, after several weeks, i'll want to listen > to it over and over--i end up really loving it. > > The corollary of this, of course, is that often when > i immediately think on first listen that i've created > something quite magical, two weeks later i don't really > care for it. Even then, i'll ask for other opinions, > and they are often in agreement with my own. "Oh... > ummm....that's...well....yeah....ummm, not some of your > better stuff, man." > > Anybody else experience this? This certainly isn't > the rule. I mean, on creating a loop i really like > i don't immediately think, "Ah schitt, this sounds > amazing to me--it must suck." But the scenario above > happens to me quite often. I haven't really meditated > enough on this to figure out why. > > Any thoughts? > > > Pete Koniuto > > > ----------------- > Music Library > Boston University > 617-353-3705 > pkoniuto@bu.edu > ----------------- > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:32:10 -0400 From: David Kirkdorffer To: "'buzzard@world.std.com'" Cc: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: Final footnote? Oberheim Echoplex Digital Pro -- Market Demand & Availability Study Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F04870D@MAIL> Content-Type: text/plain With minor equivocations, I think Sean is correct on ALL counts. It is important to stress this sample size can only lead to _overall_ directions and trends. That said I sense the directions and trends are generally correct - the scale is what is arguable. Re: the xx.x% vs. xx% -- it's an old habit from working w/bigger samples sizes - I didn't mean to imply more statistical authority. It's actually quite comical given the sample size. I will forward Sean's critique to the folks at Gibson/Oberheim too. As a footnote to this whole Polling excersize - it has been the strangest fun. I thank all of you who responded. The results were quite interesting -- some even surprising. And to the other EDP owners in Boston/Allston, I would like to meet you! (how about a show at the Middle East; I know who to call). Putting the calculator away... David Kirkdorffer -----Original Message----- From: buzzard@world.std.com [SMTP:buzzard@world.std.com] Sent: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:56 PM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Oberheim Echoplex Digital Pro -- Market Demand & Availability Stu dy Pretty comprehensive. Nice job. I'm not a professional statistician, but I wanted to take some time to correct what I believe are some misleading statistics and interpretations. No flame intended. >* Almost 40% of EDP owners live within 80-90 miles of Oakland. >And 54% of all the EDP owners also live between Los Angeles and >Berkeley, California. This statistic is impossible to interpret without similar statistics about the entire sample (e.g. if 54% of the entire sample lived between LA and Berkeley, it would mean something quite different than is implied!) The detailed results cover part of this (but no number for LA-Berkeley). >* Seventy-six percent (76.4%) of those who have tried an EDP >indicate they also own an EDP. This can be interpreted to testify that >three-quarters of those who try an EDP go on to buy an EDP. This really can't be judged with much certainly without more data. For example, anyone who buys one without trying it first ends up in this category. (That such people exist seems likely, since, for example, the apparent paradox observed in another set of questions--don't want to try, but want to buy--can be explained by people with this intention.) > This may mean that >contacting 1000 existing EDP owners (from user supplied warranty card >information) via direct mail with an offer to buy another EDP could >instantly yield orders for sales of 462 EDP additional units. I know you said "may" and "could", but I want to stress that the obvious general danger here is generalizing from the sample of "people who subscribe to loopers-delight" as being reflective of all consumers. It's certainly _possible_ that all EDP owners are hardcore loopists like people on this list (what else are they doing with their EDP, after all), and certainly that's more likely the case than Digitech delay owners. But even suggesting it translates directly into sales is questionable. Also, I wasn't going to tweak you for reporting results with the extra decimal place, but, really, 462? Assuming just +-1 respondent (which is probably an underestimate of the error), the original statistic (6/13, I assume) goes to 6/14..7/14, which is 42-50%, or 46 +- 4%, or 460+-40 units in your example. Reporting the extra decimal places just implies more accuracy than is really there, adding a false authority to the numbers which, if the reader knows better, makes them more suspicious of the results. >* However, on the whole, the number one reason for wanting to buy >an EDP is it's perceived as the "Best Overall Looper" cited by 34.2% -- >which comes from combining the answers "Better than JamMan" (17.1%) and The members of loopers-delight have access to a very current, active, up-to-date information source on the merits of various looping devices (namely the mailing list itself); perhaps this merely implies a form of consumer education Gibson needs to engage in to increase demand. But I certainly wouldn't expect people without access to this list to have the same perceptions as things stand. Anyway, these are all just minor interpretation issues. I just don't think statistics should be presented in the "best possible light to prove a point"--which is why I'll never play well with marketing departments... And, off topic, I strongly recommend a read of the old classic "How to Lie with Statistics" to anyone interested in the subject of the various ways statistics can be misleading. Like I said, overall, good work. Thanks. Sean Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:17:18 -0700 From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: music Message-Id: <199709182220.PAA18533@usr01.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Attix Invoked: > In the visual arts its pretty normal to not make up your mind about a > piece until you've lived with it a few weeks (or months or years). This > runs totally counter to the Buddhist approach of creating the work and > then completely letting go of it (which they accomplish by destroying > the piece). This corresponds also to what I do when I'm making up either the Loop Of The Week (posted at the site below) or pieces for my Book Of Days CDROMs... I basically let the loop play for as much as several days sometimes, as well as through the stereo, to make sure it won't drive people (especially me) insane. Stephen Goodman * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios EarthLight Productions * Get the Loop Of The Week Free! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:18:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Pete Koniuto To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ed Chang wrote: > Anyway, my theory is that 'alien/possibly great' sounds/concepts can > sound bad even to the genius-composer at the time of creation because it > doesn't fit comfortably in his/her familiar sound-world... Exactly, Ed. It's that uncharted territory thing. I sometimes hear something i've just worked on, be it a loop or something else (but usually a loop, since other pieces and parts happen more slowly, a little more methodically, or are perhaps more premeditated), and i'll think, no, there isn't enough high end in this to make it sound all nice and balanced. It sounds dull, lo-fi, swampy. It isn't until later that i realize, i've never heard something so damn swampy--this is stinky swampy, and it's scaring me, not boring me. IT'S HAVING IMPACT. Often a good clue early on about what is effective, what has impact musically is when i find myself either laughing or proverbially scared shitless. Sometimes both. But if i can immediately sense the humor in a piece, or the terror, these are probably reflexes to something that doesn't quite sit easily with that sound-world with which i'm familiar and all to comfortable. Unfortunately, i KNOW i'm much better at the scarey stuff. At least that's a reaction others often have to my material, especially my looping. Can anyone suggest how to invoke more humor in the looping process? Either the kind of humor that brings with it tears; or the kind that pulls out that Cheshire grin to the listener's lips, like yeah, i get it. Torn can do it. During the Polytown sessions, he would pull schitt out that had everyone in the control room laughing themselves silly. And he knew it. And i think he may have even been aiming for that. Or maybe he was just trying to crack himself up. Suggestions on how to bring humor (even the nervous kind) into the loop? Pete Koniuto ----------------- Music Library Boston University 617-353-3705 pkoniuto@bu.edu ----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:29:29 -0400 (EDT) From: GILGOOD@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music Message-ID: <970918191702_215909950@emout15.mail.aol.com> Can anyone reccomend a good sampler/sequencer for the Macintosh? Prehaps even forward it? Right now I'm using BackToBasics in union with SoundEffects, and I'm looking for something with a bit more precision. Anyone use a Mac at all? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 01:08:42 -0500 From: mark sottilaro To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: MacMan Message-ID: <342216E9.B56665B7@mailbox.syr.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey, I personally use Opcode's StudioVision Pro for my multitrack audio/midi recording and sample sequencing. It has a lot of brilliant effects and a non real-time pitch to midi and midi back to pitch feature that is quite amazing. (you can turn an audio track to midi, edit it and then apply the changes to the original track-fun!) It also has a non pitch effecting time contract/dilation feature that is great for synching samples. It will run on any A/V or Power Mac. I can get 10 audio tracks and 16 midi tracks at the same time on my 7600/120. Unfortunately, it is about $800. For cheaper solutions, you may try Macromedia's Deck II w/ Soundedit 16. They are designed to synch with a midi sequencing program called Metro by JS Technologies. (the author is a personal friend) when I last talked to him he was working on a audio/midi version of Metro, but I don't know if it's ready yet. It's very easy to use and cheap. -- -- Mark @ �??? IAMNOTHERE c ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 00:20:05 -0500 From: Grover Sheffield To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplex price Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970919052005.006a1704@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >As far as Echoplex prices, I called several places and the best I could >find was about $700 including the foot controller. > >-Len > Len, The best price I've found is about $700 PLUS another $110 for the foot controller. Would you write me back with the dealer who quoted you the above price? Thanks and good luck. I'm not doing any looping yet, just doing my research at this point. Grover > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:36:18 -0400 From: Jon Durant <74074.1316@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re: music Message-ID: <199709190929_MC2-2108-AA92@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Pete writes- >Torn can do it. During the Polytown sessions, he would >pull schitt out that had everyone in the control room >laughing themselves silly. And he knew it. And i think >he may have even been aiming for that. Or maybe he was >just trying to crack himself up. > >Suggestions on how to bring humor (even the nervous kind) >into the loop? (Hi Pete, hope your well. Shout at me some time, ok?) There are a number of ways to inject humor into a piece. Zappa had a whole chapter of his autobiography dedicated to it. Torn is indeed a master, and one of the things I've picked up from him and begun to use more frequently are other elements than your primary instrument. For example, currently running on a loop in the studio is a bundt pan, sampled in jamman 1, played backwards through a coupla different thingies and looped. Vox are great, both as a harmonic/melodic source, or as ambient sound sources. One thing torn was doing during the "tripping" tour was playing a micro cassette (of Mick Karn's grilfriend reciting some off-beat poetry) through his pickups. The effect was staggeringly cool, and quite amusing. I did this during rehearsal with my trio two weeks ago, this time with a micro casstte of my 4-year-old son singing "chip and dale rescue rangers". Tears were flowing, I can tell you. Other kinds of things can be done with modulating delays, especially with a powerful processor like the PCM 80. When the box was almost finsihed, we were working on presets and my (former) office mate and I were playing with the delays and came up with a program that sounded like you were walking through a las vegas hotel lobby. It was hysterical. It didn't land as a preset, though. Not very useful on a daily basis... What am I listening to? Currently I'm only listening to the projects I'm in the middle of trying to finish: the new Michael Manring CD (due early next year, and features some v.cool loopage from the bass meister) and a very cool ambient record by a new artist named William Camire (w/loopage by jd and violin by Caryn Lin). But I did make some time to listen to a coupla tapes from some regular contributors to the list, Andre LaFosse and Olivier Malhomme. Both very good work, very creative and unusual. I hope I'll get more time with them in a few weeks when things calm down here. later, jon durant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:01:31 -0700 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: music ---> Mac programs Message-Id: <199709191458.HAA16020@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------- Matthew Finley McCabe Sales/Marketing Support SunGard Bi-Tech Systems Inc. 890 Fortress Street Chico, CA 95973 916.899.4348 > From: GILGOOD@aol.com > Can anyone reccomend a good sampler/sequencer for the Macintosh? Prehaps even > forward it? > Right now I'm using BackToBasics in union with SoundEffects, and I'm looking > for something with a bit more precision. > Anyone use a Mac at all? I'm using Emagic's Logic Audio on the Mac. I love the program although I've only scratched the surface of what it can do. It has the ability to map the tempo of a song to an audio file and "quantize" an audio file to a MIDI sequence. The newer version has real-time DSP capabilities. Initially I was a little scared of non-linear recording but I'm now a BIG fan. In fact, I borrowed a friend's ADAT about 7 months ago to do a project and I actually prefer recording right into the computer. Matt P.S. 2+ years ago a big factor in convincing me to buy Logic Audio was the linear notes in Torn's "Tripping Over God" CD. I figured if DT was using it, it had to be pretty cool. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:34:24 -0700 From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: music ---> Mac programs Message-Id: <199709191637.JAA12451@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I produce content allegedly playable on both platforms, I've been curious as to whether a solution exists out there for Mac users to freely download, that plays .WAV files, and loops. I've been suggesting the use of CoolEdit for this, on the PC end. And of course, the PC version of the Loop Of The Week plays itself -- I provide the ZIPped .WAV for other-than-PC platforms, and Mac users also download it. It's just that all of the Mac users who regularly get my Loop Of The Week are using proprietary or non-shareware packages to loop the file. It would be nice to hear of a package that I could recommend to Mac users, and perhaps provide a link to as well. Anyone? Stephen Goodman * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios EarthLight Productions * Get the Loop Of The Week Free! --------------------------------