------------------------------
Loopers-Delight-d Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 189

Today's Topics:
  Re: Closing the loop                  [ "Chris Darrow" <sound@inav.net> ]
  Torn - "...Solid, Traveller?"         [ "M. Griffin" <mgriffin@hypnos.com> ]
  Re: Closing the loop                  [ Tom Spaulding <tspauldi@gibson.com> ]
  Re: Looping/Theater perf. in Boston   [ Frank Gerace <seahorse@user1.channe ]
  New Looping Hardware (?)              [ Darcy Clark <darcyc@engin.umich.edu ]
  JamMan Wanted                         [ Drumworker@aol.com ]
  Re: Jam Man: sell or trade            [ "Type in your real name here" <user ]
  Re: JamMan Wanted                     [ DENNIS PISKO <pisko@ix.netcom.com> ]
  Re: Philadelphia Loop Show 1998       [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ]
  Re: New Looping Hardware (?)          [ "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.c ]
    [ Tom Spaulding <tspauldi@gibson.com> ]
  Re: Echoplex user's guide             [ Len Seligman <seligman@mitre.org> ]
  Jamman vs Echoplex: who wins?         [ "nicomonguzzi" <nicomonguzzi@vtx.ch ]

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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 97 09:25:29 PST
From: "Chris Darrow" <sound@inav.net>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Closing the loop
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.006f756e642020203030303530303035@MAPI.to.RFC822>
Content-Type: text/plain; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

	Greetings from an eavsdroper. I have three questions about the EP and a
statement for Oberheim. (Please forgive the misspellings,  dislexic not
stupid.)

Question 1: While investigating what it would take to upgrade the pitifull
4 meg of ram in my older 486 IBM,  I was told that sometimes, when adding
simms, they can work at different speeds even though they are supposedly
the exact same type. In other words, it is better to replace all of the
memory insted of just adding to it. Is the same true of the echoplex? Will
I possibly run into problems by expanding the memory myself, which is much
cheeper and easier? Can anyone provide me with the full technical
specifications needed to avoid any conflict between old memory and new?

Question 2: Well, I guess I'll need to tell you a bit of my story for
this... I've been waiting for 3 echoplexes for almost a year now. All I can
say is that Oberheim  really has the delay part down! Yet I've never toyed
with one myself. Crazy? No. Calculated. There's nothing beter. I know how
they work by thinking about them, or how they should work. What I want to
know is: Am I right?
	   I want to play bass, guitar, and sax at the same time. Actually, it
goes further than that. The sax will be played through a mike that can be
used for a snare drum, harp, vocals or anything else (how is the static
build up for overdubs by mic?). I'll switch from guitar to keys via an A+B
footswitch. A Roland PMA will begin some songs or provide  a bridge to keep
things interesting. 	  Three units are needed to A)seporate the diferent
sounds so that each has its own stereo amplification specifically for it's
tonal region, ie; bass to a bass cab. and B) so that I can start a short
loop, build a longer one on another unit, then alter the first or dittle
with the third. Also for changing from tune to tune using the reverse of
this process. So the ultimate question is, will I be able to synch and
close the loops between three units on the fly? Or will I be forced to
slave them?  If it is a matter of physical coordination, I think I can.
I've been stomping on an invisible box for mounths. (A row of pennies
suffices)  Also, practicing matching notes with left hand tapping on guitar
and right hand on keys or sax. Or sax and keys. All just tricks really, but
fun.

	  SO, I can use any advice I can get as to whether or not I'm looking at
these things correctly . Can they really do it? Can I really do it? And on
a... well, spiritual note, I guess, why does this delay have to happen at a
point in my life where I have every other element and instrument around me
but the Plex, AND, as my self confidence in music as an ocupation dwindles
I am forced to draw deeper on my conviction that I am waiting for something
that is RIGHT. That it will pay dividends. Perhaps I am not expressing
myself well. At any rate,  any stories of instinct, of perserverance when
everyone else thinks you are mad would be apreciated as well. Publically or
privatlly.

Question 3: Kim. Why no "Previous Loop" button? Is there at least a mode
which will limmit the possble loops from 1 to 2, or even to 3, so that
"Next Loop" gets you back to 1 without going through dead loops? I'm I
thinking of it wrong?  Most conventional songs are in one to three parts.
So I assume there is some way to mimic this, if one chooses, on the Plex.

Statement to Oberheim:  This relates to question 2  in the sence that there
is nothing better than the Plex that I know about. Nothing with more
memory, fidelity, and, most important, freedom. This will not last forever.
Therefor you are in a race. And yet I sympothize with trying to clean up a
mess that someone else began. (I actually would like to know about the
history of the mess, so if you have time, e-mail me as to who fucked up.) 
At any rate, what I want to say here is this:  Get it right. I, the
consumer, is grudgingly willing to wait for a flawless, remarkable peice of
musical technology. I agree that you should "Ship no Oberheim before it's
time!"  I don't want any of the problems I have heard about. This, I know,
takes time. But I hope nobody gets the jump on you in the inturm because I
really like the intuitive way you've layed things out. And I always root
for the underdog. Also, please provide  REALISTIC schedual of delivery. For
everyone. At all times. Even if it costs you.

				Thank you. Much support. Don't let the nice guy finish last.

 								Chris. 

sound@soli.inav.net



----------
> Hello all --
> 
> Some thoughts I'd like to make here...
> 
> As I posted previously a couple of days ago, in reviewing the information
> I provided for Oberheim, I detected some serious inaccuracies and
> inconsistencies in the information I provided them for trying to detect
> the anomaly in my unit.  I don't know how much this contributed to the
> delay I recieved in getting my unit back, and at this point I doubt I ever
> will.  What I am doing is choosing to return the other check, which was
> originally sent to Gibson (and subsequently sent back to me), back to
> Oberheim in the interest of trying to make reparations for the confusion
> which has ensued and help realize the expenses incurred in their efforts
> to help me.  If anyone at Oberheim feels any other steps should be taken,
> I'll happily speak to them in private or public about it, and I certainly
> apologize for any contributions to the current confusion which I may have
> made. 
> 
> Since at least some of the confusion with my situation could very likely
> have stemmed from my lack of clarity, it seems to me at this point that it
> would be unfair to use my particular case as a litmus test for Oberheim's
> current state of organization and customer service (though it must be
> admitted that strictly from an intention point of view, Tom and Pat were
> definitely on the right track).  I do get the impression that the company
> is presently in very good hands. 
> 
> The noise anomaly has been tracked down and explained.  I lack the
> necessary technical skills or expertise to do so, but it will shortly be
> made available; owing to the fact I've never heard anyone else notice it
> or complain about it, it's fair to say it's minor enough to not warrant a
> problem for anyone else.  If nothing else, I must thank Oberheim for being
> able to eliminate the possibility of its being a circuitry problem as a
> result of their swapping all of the internal electronics. 
> 
> As one of the very few people who has thus far been priveleged enough 
> to use the upgrade, I can report that it's a very welcome addition to the 
> Echoplex.  The whole thing seems to run a little bit more smoothly, and 
> some of the minor bugs which had been annoying in the past are happily 
> absent from the current software.  Anyone who has any interest in looping 
> (including anybody on this list) owes it to themselves to investigate the 
> Echoplex, especially in its newer, sleeker format.
> 
> One thing that's been driven home to me over the last week is the fact
> that what we do, and the companies which help produce the tools which make
> what we do possible to a large extent, all exists on a significantly
> smaller scale than what one might initially presume.  This isn't
> big-business corporate commerce -- it's fringe technology and creativity,
> being fostered by both musicians and manufacturers who often are not that
> far away from being unable to continue their efforts in this realm. 
> 
> Whether we like it or not, I've come to the conclusion that those of us on
> this list (and, in a more general sense, those of us within this musical
> and creative community, both on-line and elsewhere) have a certain
> responsibilityto and for one another.  Without customer support, the
> products can't continue to be made or distributed; without company
> support, consumers and professionals will find themselves frightened at
> the prospect of getting into the game.  In an on-line forum, these
> relationships tend to be magnified and intensified far beyond where they
> might go in the real world, and this has the potential for abuse.  I've
> been guilty of that in the recent past, and I apologize for that.  Other
> people have as well, and they have in general admitted as such. 
> 
> This is a pivotal time for Oberheim -- they're under new management, and 
> preparing to ship a version of a new product which customers have been 
> anxiously awaiting for at least two years.  I certainly hope that my 
> comments have not swayed anyone from considering investigation into the 
> Echoplex, and I will reiterate that the unit is in a class all its own in 
> terms of the depth and breadth of what it can do.  Take what's said in 
> this forum for what it's worth, but ultimately, track down one of the 
> units and see for yourself what it can do.  
> 
> My thanks for Oberheim for their efforts in the past and present, and my 
> wishes for ongoing success and longevity.
> 
> --Andre
> 

------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 20:25:47 -0800
From: "M. Griffin" <mgriffin@hypnos.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Torn - "...Solid, Traveller?"
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971102202544.0069fa80@mail.transport.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,
Not long ago, someone on this list mentioned that they were looking for a
copy of David Torn's "What Means Solid, Traveller?" which is now out of print.

I've been weeding out some stuff from my collection, and I have a copy of
this title that I think I'm ready to let go of.  Will consider selling it,
but I'd prefer to hear trade offers...

Thanks,
Mike
         
       |   ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '   |
       |  h y p n o s   r e c o r d i n g s  |
       |  e m a i l :   mgriffin@hypnos.com  |
       |  web site at http://www.hypnos.com  | 
       |    -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -    |
       |  j e f f   g r e i n k e ,   t h e  |
       |  o f f i c i a l   w e b   s i t e  |
       |  at: http://www.hypnos.com/greinke  |      
       |   ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '   |

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:16:26 -0600
From: Tom Spaulding <tspauldi@gibson.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Cc: pmurphy@gibson.com, kpaul@gibson.com
Subject: Re: Closing the loop
Message-Id: <97Nov3.081726cst.26886@gateway.gibson.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Andre-

My sincere thanks for your ongoing efforts. I would definitely be
interested in the learning the cause of your noise problem. If it is not a
design anomaly, I think it would certainly merit a mention in a revised
owner's manual. 

I agree with you that at the scale we are operating at, the relationship
between manufacturer and end user is crucial. For example, even though the
JamMan was an excellent product at an excellent price, Lexicon chose to
discontinue it. We at Oberheim are probably no less bottom-line conscious
than Lexicon, but we are determined to keep the Echoplex in production, and
in fact maybe even expand the line(!). 

>From postings I have observed, the Customer Service people at Lexicon are
still answering questions, even though the product is no longer made. This
is a testament to the caliber of their organization and to the fact that
all "big"companies are made up of some people who care and some who do not,
(or can not). It is with the continued support and critiques from the power
user's on this list that Oberheim will persevere. Thanks again, Andre, for
pointing that out. Enjoy your update, and thank Kim and Co. for all of it's
benefits.

Tom
At 02:50 PM 11/2/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello all --
>
>Some thoughts I'd like to make here...
>
>As I posted previously a couple of days ago, in reviewing the information
>I provided for Oberheim, I detected some serious inaccuracies and
>inconsistencies in the information I provided them for trying to detect
>the anomaly in my unit.  I don't know how much this contributed to the
>delay I recieved in getting my unit back, and at this point I doubt I ever
>will.  What I am doing is choosing to return the other check, which was
>originally sent to Gibson (and subsequently sent back to me), back to
>Oberheim in the interest of trying to make reparations for the confusion
>which has ensued and help realize the expenses incurred in their efforts
>to help me.  If anyone at Oberheim feels any other steps should be taken,
>I'll happily speak to them in private or public about it, and I certainly
>apologize for any contributions to the current confusion which I may have
>made. 
>
>Since at least some of the confusion with my situation could very likely
>have stemmed from my lack of clarity, it seems to me at this point that it
>would be unfair to use my particular case as a litmus test for Oberheim's
>current state of organization and customer service (though it must be
>admitted that strictly from an intention point of view, Tom and Pat were
>definitely on the right track).  I do get the impression that the company
>is presently in very good hands. 
>
>The noise anomaly has been tracked down and explained.  I lack the
>necessary technical skills or expertise to do so, but it will shortly be
>made available; owing to the fact I've never heard anyone else notice it
>or complain about it, it's fair to say it's minor enough to not warrant a
>problem for anyone else.  If nothing else, I must thank Oberheim for being
>able to eliminate the possibility of its being a circuitry problem as a
>result of their swapping all of the internal electronics. 
>
>As one of the very few people who has thus far been priveleged enough 
>to use the upgrade, I can report that it's a very welcome addition to the 
>Echoplex.  The whole thing seems to run a little bit more smoothly, and 
>some of the minor bugs which had been annoying in the past are happily 
>absent from the current software.  Anyone who has any interest in looping 
>(including anybody on this list) owes it to themselves to investigate the 
>Echoplex, especially in its newer, sleeker format.
>
>One thing that's been driven home to me over the last week is the fact
>that what we do, and the companies which help produce the tools which make
>what we do possible to a large extent, all exists on a significantly
>smaller scale than what one might initially presume.  This isn't
>big-business corporate commerce -- it's fringe technology and creativity,
>being fostered by both musicians and manufacturers who often are not that
>far away from being unable to continue their efforts in this realm. 
>
>Whether we like it or not, I've come to the conclusion that those of us on
>this list (and, in a more general sense, those of us within this musical
>and creative community, both on-line and elsewhere) have a certain
>responsibilityto and for one another.  Without customer support, the
>products can't continue to be made or distributed; without company
>support, consumers and professionals will find themselves frightened at
>the prospect of getting into the game.  In an on-line forum, these
>relationships tend to be magnified and intensified far beyond where they
>might go in the real world, and this has the potential for abuse.  I've
>been guilty of that in the recent past, and I apologize for that.  Other
>people have as well, and they have in general admitted as such. 
>
>This is a pivotal time for Oberheim -- they're under new management, and 
>preparing to ship a version of a new product which customers have been 
>anxiously awaiting for at least two years.  I certainly hope that my 
>comments have not swayed anyone from considering investigation into the 
>Echoplex, and I will reiterate that the unit is in a class all its own in 
>terms of the depth and breadth of what it can do.  Take what's said in 
>this forum for what it's worth, but ultimately, track down one of the 
>units and see for yourself what it can do.  
>
>My thanks for Oberheim for their efforts in the past and present, and my 
>wishes for ongoing success and longevity.
>
>--Andre
>
>
>

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:21:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Frank Gerace <seahorse@user1.channel1.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re:  Looping/Theater perf. in Boston
Message-Id: <199711031521.KAA28669@user1.channel1.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, David,
        We have a cassette as Dreamchild called Gates To The Sea which has a
VG/wire-strung harp/vocal trio piece on it as well as a lot of VG8. voice
and bass stuff.  We are working on a soundtrack to Masks of Odysseus as
well, which will have more of same and all the spoken word stuff as well.
There's information on all this at our website at
http://www.channel1.com/users/seahorse. 
         We are also working on a lot of new material with the harp and VG8.
That material should be available in the late spring.  (Masks in early
spring).  The time delay is due to my performing as co-writer, recording
engineer and mix master.  I'll keep you posted on new stuff.
Frank


ComAt 09:24 AM 10/31/97 EST, you wrote:
>Hey, Frank...
>Have you got any tapes or CDs? I'd love to hear a VG-8/wire-strung harp duo!
>dpc
>
>
>

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:58:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Darcy Clark <darcyc@engin.umich.edu>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: New Looping Hardware (?)
Message-Id: <v03007801b0835d5c2dad@[141.212.131.224]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Sorry to bring discussion down to a purely technical level, but I am
curious as to how useful 'phrase samplers' are in a looping context (i.e.,
do they offer any advantages of the Jamman or Echoplex; what can't you do
on phrase sampling units that you can on the afore-metioned devices)

here's an example:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/MI/MIboss_PS.html#SP-202



Darcy Clark
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Materials Science and Engineering Department
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI, 48109-2136
USA
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Room    2130, Dow Building
Phone   (313) 764 3377
Fax     (313)  763 4788
E-mail  darcyc@engin.umich.edu
http://msewww.engin.umich.edu/mse250
http://msewww.engin.umich.edu/people/darcyc/
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~darcyc/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:50:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Drumworker@aol.com
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: JamMan Wanted
Message-ID: <971103164654_-425553683@emout11.mail.aol.com>

I will purchase a JamMan if I can find one. If you have one you'll sell or
know where I can buy one, please contact me directly - Drumworker@aol.com

Any leads are appreciated.

Paul O.

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:19:50 -0600
From: "Type in your real name here" <username@itis.com (please Replace)>
To: <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Re: Jam Man:  sell or trade
Message-ID: <01bce8a6$9a5afa40$ce0753d1@greg>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks - but it has been sold.

Greg

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 17:23:36 -0500
From: DENNIS PISKO <pisko@ix.netcom.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: JamMan Wanted
Message-ID: <345E4EE8.5C08@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Drumworker@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I will purchase a JamMan if I can find one. If you have one you'll sell or
> know where I can buy one, please contact me directly - Drumworker@aol.com
> 
> Any leads are appreciated.
> 
> Paul O.
I'm looking for one myself.

------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:40:05 +0200
From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith)
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Philadelphia Loop Show 1998
Message-Id: <v01520d01b083a08fb951@[205.177.25.43]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Jim,

We are definately interested in doing the lOOp Show 1998. Please count us in.

Patrick


 ***  ***    ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html  ***  **

  

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 01:26:07 -0600
From: "Mikell D. Nelson" <mnelson@dmans.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: New Looping Hardware (?)
Message-ID: <345ECE0F.3309@dmans.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Darcy Clark wrote:
> 
> Sorry to bring discussion down to a purely technical level, but I am
> curious as to how useful 'phrase samplers' are in a looping context (i.e.,
> do they offer any advantages of the Jamman or Echoplex; what can't you do
> on phrase sampling units that you can on the afore-metioned devices)
> 
> here's an example:
> http://www.rolandus.com/products/MI/MIboss_PS.html#SP-202

  Products like this are setup to record many samples or phrases and
then string them together, sort of like a sequencer does with MIDI
events, to create a song. As far as I know, they don't play multiple
parts simultaneously, have pure loop functions such as multiply, or have
foot controllers. IMHO the Boomerang Phrase Sampler, Echoplex DP, and
Jamman are far more powerful tools for live performance by a single
musician.

Motley

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 08:43:46 -0600
From: Tom Spaulding <tspauldi@gibson.com>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject:
Message-Id: <97Nov4.084448cst.26882@gateway.gibson.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello All-

In preparation for the next production run of Echoplex units, I thought it
might be helpful to amend the Owner's Manual with any tips or tricks that
anyone may have discovered. I would like to have a chapter devoted to
applications of the Echoplex from all musician's who use it - DJ's,
percussionists, horns, woodwinds, strings, etc. We would compile these
techniques and either add them to the existing manual or publish a separate
User's Guide. Do you think this would be beneficial? Any thoughts on how
best to present the material? I would appreciate your help, and am eager to
hear from you. Thanks!!

Tom

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 10:23:49 -0500
From: Len Seligman <seligman@mitre.org>
To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com
Subject: Re: Echoplex user's guide
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971104102349.0070ce7c@dharma.mitre.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:43 AM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello All-
>
>In preparation for the next production run of Echoplex units, I thought it
>might be helpful to amend the Owner's Manual with any tips or tricks that
>anyone may have discovered. I would like to have a chapter devoted to
>applications of the Echoplex from all musician's who use it - DJ's,
>percussionists, horns, woodwinds, strings, etc. We would compile these
>techniques and either add them to the existing manual or publish a separate
>User's Guide. Do you think this would be beneficial? Any thoughts on how
>best to present the material? I would appreciate your help, and am eager to
>hear from you. Thanks!!
>
>Tom

Tom,

The user's guide is a great idea. I'd keep it separate from the manual, so
it could be more informal, since I suspect that much of what appears in it
will be anectodal lore from individual users (very valuable nevertheless!).

One plea, though: please don't hold up production at all for the guide to
be finished. Much better to get the units out and then make the guide
available at a later date. Many of us are just *dying* to get our hands on
our 'plexes, the sooner, the better. I've got a group in which two Brother
Sync'd 'plexes are essential to the concept; we need to have two of them
before we can gig.  (Perhaps include a postcard order form in the box with
units that are shipped before the guide is ready. It can also be made
available over the web.)

Thanks a lot!

-Len

------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:43:59 +0100
From: "nicomonguzzi" <nicomonguzzi@vtx.ch>
To: Loopers Delight * Mail List <Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com>
Subject: Jamman vs Echoplex: who wins?
Message-Id: <l03102800b0850d7f9ede@[194.235.13.101]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello all !
Just a few questions:
all the messages about the echoplex are keeping my attention to this unit,
i've dwnloaded the user's guide from the Oberheim site at
http://www.Gibson.com , and i discovered a lot of cool things i can't do
with my Jamman, so here's the questions:
Which is the best ?
The Echoplex is available in Europe?

I'm waiting for any comments...

ciao nicos

--------------------------------