------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 197 Today's Topics: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 [ Paolo Valladolid ] Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 [ Paolo Valladolid ] Korg Z1 [ Paolo Valladolid ] Re: going price for a eh 16 or a buc [ PJBMHB@aol.com ] Re: going price for a eh 16 or a buc [ jeff & mary duke ] Re: going price for a eh 16 or a buc [ Kim Flint ] Re: FS: Kahler Human Clock $150 [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ] buchla thunder says what? [ "Joseph Buck" ] Vortex for sale [ Darcy Clark To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 Message-Id: <199711132239.OAA09401@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > From: Markus Reuter > > > i just spotted a Roland GR-700 guitar synth (including the > > guitar) in a turkish second hand store over here in germany. > > > > is it worth getting it? > > what's a reasonable price for a used GR-700 nowadays? > > I've never played one, but the earlier GR-300 is supposed to track better. > The GR-700 uses MIDI to trigger the sounds (hence the delay) and I seem to > remember that it didn't transmit pitch bend information (don't quote me on > that). No, the GR700 does not use MIDI to trigger its internal sounds. Like the GR300, it is an analog synth. Here's some useful information posted by Thomas Sullivan to Digital Guitar Digest #30: Well, the GR700 also has an internal synth, so it tracks pretty closely to the GR300. If you use the MIDI out on the GR700, that is slow. The GR300 drives analog circuitry for making the synth tones too, so you don't have the microprocessor control you have the in the GR700 making decisions, so it tracks a little faster because it doesn't have to wait for more complex control info like the GR700 does. > I remember that Andy Summers and Robert Fripp preferred the GR-300 because > it "felt" better to play and had a more "organic" sound (it's basically an > analog synth). I'm sure the fact that the GR300 allows the hex fuzz circuit in the GR303 guitar to be mixed with the synth sound has something to do with it too. :) In summary: The GR300 lets you mix the fuzz sound with the synth sound if you are using a Roland GR303 guitar while the GR700 (a later model) does not. The GR700 is programmable (with 64 presets) while the GR300 is not. The GR300 has no MIDI ports. The GR700 has one MIDI out port and only transmits MIDI note and velocity, not pitchbend (arrgghh!). Both are analog synths. Cheers, Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:46:29 -0600 From: Randy Jones To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971113164626.006aa24c@texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello I'd say depends on price. I have the 300 and the 700 with Strat and Les Paul controller copies. I like to tweak around on them both. The 700 has the midi out which I run into a synth for pad/wash type things. It doesn't seem to track all that great and does miss out on pitch bends. Ck out Pablo's Digest for more info. BTW, I love the Strat controller, the Paul weighs about 200 lbs, but has more knobs than I've ever seen on a guitar. Also, to effectively modify the 700, I think you need a programmer like the PGM 200, a separate module. Randy Jones At 10:39 PM 11/13/97 -0500, Markus Reuter wrote: >-- [ From: Markus Reuter * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > >hi fellow loopers! > >i just spotted a Roland GR-700 guitar synth (including the >guitar) in a turkish second hand store over here in germany. > >is it worth getting it? >what's a reasonable price for a used GR-700 nowadays? > >thanks for your help! >cheers! > >markus >-- >-> Markus Reuter, Dammwiese 7, 33613 Bielefeld, Germany <- >-> email mreuter@post.uni-bielefeld.de <-> phone (521) 896248 <- >-> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/markus.htm <- > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:07:47 -0800 (PST) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 Message-Id: <199711132307.PAA09583@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'd say depends on price. I have the 300 and the 700 with Strat and Les > Paul controller copies. I like to tweak around on them both. The 700 has > the midi out which I run into a synth for pad/wash type things. It doesn't > seem to track all that great and does miss out on pitch bends. Ck out > Pablo's Digest for more info. BTW, I love the Strat controller, the Paul > weighs about 200 lbs, but has more knobs than I've ever seen on a guitar. > Also, to effectively modify the 700, I think you need a programmer like the > PGM 200, a separate module. > > Randy Jones Thanks, Randy! ^_^ I just wanted to add I got along just fine using the knobs on the guitar controller and the GR700 footpedals to program the GR700. Certainly not as convenient as having the PGM200 at hand, but it's doable. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:14:53 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 Message-Id: <199711132306.PAA29643@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Paolo Valladolid > No, the GR700 does not use MIDI to trigger its internal sounds. Like > the GR300, it is an analog synth. Here's some useful information > posted by Thomas Sullivan to Digital Guitar Digest #30: Ohh....well...uh....at least I got some of it correct! :-\ Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:39:31 -0800 (PST) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Korg Z1 Message-Id: <199711132339.PAA09852@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The recent discussion about arpeggiators made me think it might not be a bad idea to post a little review of the Z1 that I wrote up. I tinker on Chapman Stick more than any other instrument but I've always enjoyed keeping up with the latest synth developments because of the synthesizer's potential to do things that would be physically impossible on acoustic instruments. Here's the review: After reading about the new Korg Z1 physical modeling synth, I got to check it out a bit at a music store. I must preface this by saying I'm no synth expert by any means and my comments only apply to the presets that come with the synth. I'm mainly interested in a keyboard that can be used for looping with something like an Oberheim Echoplex or Lexicon Jam Man in live performance. Here are various comments: Sound - I wasn't blown away by any particular sound; at least not like the first time I heard a demo of the Yamaha VL1 (another physical modeling synth). Many of the presets were pad-like sounds that to me had potential as sound sources for making loops/soundscapes a la David Torn or Robert Fripp. They generally had a lot of interesting sonic movement instead of what you'd get from merely playing back a sample of an analog synth pad. I liked the electric piano preset(s); it responded more like a real Fender Rhodes than your typical sample-playback synth. In general, the presents seemed to be more oriented towards electronic sounds rather than acoustic instrument emulations. Playability - I don't consider myself a keyboard player, but the keys felt ok. I was more impressed with the X-Y pad. I could not determine if it was sensitive to velocity or pressure. Most of the presets that used the X-Y pad had the pad apparently controlling filters. Having lots of knobs was very nice. One preset was a horn-section type sound which allowed me to use the X-Y pad to radically alter the tone and pitch of the sound in weird ways. It was kind of like scratching a record, except you could "scratch" in two dimensions instead of just back-and-forth; if that makes any sense. I have a feeling the possibilities of the X-Y pad, the controlling knobs, and the arpeggiator (below) were not fully exploited in the presets. Arpeggiator - I am somewhat ignorant of the arpeggiators of various keyboards, but the one on the Z1 was fun to play with. As I understand it, this one is polyphonic, which offers some interesting possibilities. Again, most of my fooling with the arpeggiator was restricted to what was programmed into a particular preset. Some presets let me change the behavior of the arpeggiator in interesting, yet musical ways. Messing with the arpeggiator using the pitch-bend and mod wheels and the speed knob was naturally amusing. According to Korg's website (http://www.korg.com) the arpeggiator transmits over MIDI and can sync to an external MIDI source. Price - I was surprised to see the Z1 selling in Musician's Friend and Guitar Center for around $2000. Considering the Yamaha VL1, a 2-voice polyphonic physical modeling synth, once sold for $6000 retail, $2000 for this 12-voice polyphonic physical modeling synth seems like a bargain. One caveat though - some of the presets took a second or longer to load when switching between presets. Overall, I found the Korg Z1 to be an intriguing instrument for anyone who wants to have an original sound yet doesn't want to drag a computer around for live gigs. I kind of wish it had a breath controller input, but that X-Y pad makes up for it. Just my take, Paolo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:53:12 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: bay area loopers... Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi- If you're in the SF bay area, I'm having a party Saturday, Nov. 22. Maybe we could even have a mini loop show if anyone wants to. You can only loop music from your favorite holiday, though. ;-) Send me private mail if you think you'd like to go, and I'll send details. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:11:47 -0500 (EST) From: PJBMHB@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: going price for a eh 16 or a buchla thunder? Message-ID: <971114061146_1104530399@mrin45.mail.aol.com> what is a bulcha thunder? PJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:20:49 -0500 From: jeff & mary duke To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: going price for a eh 16 or a buchla thunder? Message-ID: <346C5E41.432F@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PJBMHB@aol.com wrote: > > what is a bulcha thunder? PJ That is a good question! Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:45:50 -0500 (EST) From: KILLINFO@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re: going price for a eh 16 or a buchla thunder? Message-ID: <971114104548_206109604@mrin79> >What do you all think is the going rate for a used EH 16 > or a Buchla Thunder? I haven't seen a Thunder in years and years but I sold my pair of EH 16s a little over a year ago for $850 each and the buyers seemed very happy to have them. Ted ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:01:53 +0000 From: David.Orton@mail.bl.uk (David Orton) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jon Hassell and other looping in London Message-ID: <000A1565.001424@mail.bl.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part There seems to be some interest in Jon Hassell amongst the list, so I thought I'd mention last night's concert at QEH in London. JH appeared with Bluescreen Two who were advertised as being Jamie Muhoberac and Peter Freeman, creators of an `electronic soundscape' amidst which is set JH's `plaintive trumpet'. There was also an uncredited guitarist (who may have been called Joe Harrison - the announcements were off-mic and difficult to hear from 2/3rds back) who made extensive use of a Fernandes Sustainer (now I *really* want one of those) and a multitude of delays and effects to great..erm - effect. Whilst much of the music relied on repetitive phrases (with occasional shifts in the patterns), it was intriguing to see that most of it was performed in real time. Despite all the technology in evidence, there appeared to be little `looping' as such. Percussion sounds were triggered from what looked like an over-sized boomerang (NB the Native Australian hunting tool, not the dedicated looping device), `played' like a standard keyboard, but with (presumably) the ergonomic benefits of it curving around the body. The material was similar in mood to the earlier 4th World albums, less like the `City' and `Bluescreen 1' versions. Well worth viewing if it comes to a town near you. Also: At lunch time yesterday I saw the acoustic guitarist Antonio Forcione dueting with saxophonist Ed Jones. I think Matthias mentioned before that AF has experimented with looping, but this is the first time I've seen him use it (sparingly) in performance. He has a Paradis LoopDelay which in this situation was used to create backing for his solos on two numbers. Again, well worth a listen if you see them advertised near you (particularly if you like Jan Garbarek-style European, folk influenced jazz) Oh yes, and if you've got this far, I'll be back at the Croydon Clocktower on Nov 28th 7-8pm - free! Cheers David ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:31:08 -0500 (EST) From: Adam Levin To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Project Lo: Saturday night in Baltimore Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bon Lozaga's Project Lo including electronic violinist Caryn Lin and vocalist Happy Rhodes hit Orion Studios in Baltimore tomorrow night at 7:30PM with special guest (for one show only) guitarist Tony Geballe who recently toured as a member of the Trey Gunn Band and has previously worked with Robert Fripp and the League of Crafty Guitarists and Toyah, among others. See http://www.ari.net/prog/shows/showcase/ for directions and other details. -Adam --- "...if one strives at hearing for the sake of constant virtue, out of seeking liberation from cyclic existence, gradually one becomes a Hearer." - Chandrakirti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:08:41 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: going price for a eh 16 or a buchla thunder? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:20 AM -0500 11/14/97, jeff & mary duke wrote: >PJBMHB@aol.com wrote: >> >> what is a bulcha thunder? PJ > > >That is a good question! Jeff The thunder is one of the more modern inventions of legendary synthesizer pioneer Don Buchla. Thunder can best be described as a touch sensitive control surface. It has a large assortment of pads and ribbon controllers that respond to the location where you touch them and the amount of pressure you apply. These can then be used to control any type of midi data you program it for. These are all arranged in an ergonomic fashion on what a friend used to describe as a "dinner serving tray." That's not quite accurate, but it gets you the idea. (I think it's shaped more like the millenium falcon.) Don of course, is a brilliant and enigmatic individual. Great to have at parties, but not so fun to work for. His musical instrument creations are typically decades ahead of their time. He has a web site that only describes his Lightning II, which is a synthesizer controller that uses two wands that you can move in space for 3d control. http://www.buchla.com kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:31:41 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: FS: Kahler Human Clock $150 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >With all the recent talk of syncing old gear up, this might be of >interest to someone: >(from Harmony Central) > >Kahler Human Clock/Midiman Sync Box $150 > >Asking Price: US$150 >Condition: Mint >Age: 6 years >Description: > > Sync your midi sequencer to live tracks or generate FSK for >perfect sync from your computer or stand alone > sequencer. The Human Clock even allows your sequencer to follow >a live drummer. 2 excellent pieces of gear now > discontinued but still very cool! > midisync@mindspring.com > >Seller: Bill Campbell, >E-mail: midisync@mindspring.com >Location: ATLANTA, GA >Post Date: 11/13/97 I'm playing in a Brazilian/Tango/Salsa trio. The keyboardist has a Kahler clock, and we've been trying to use it to sync sequenced percussion parts to the drummer's kick. And, well, it doesn't work that great. The kahler seems to track any increase in tempo pretty well, but doesn't follow when the drummer slows down. So basically, every time we use it, the tempo just keeps increasing. Not exactly the intended effect. I've talked to other kahler users and they've noted the same effect. Perhaps this is why the kahler failed. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:45:27 PST From: "Joseph Buck" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: buchla thunder says what? Message-ID: <19971114194527.26720.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Well said Kim. I had first heard/seen one at a Mark Isham gig where he had one to his side to play some textural sounds and samples. Later I asked what the hell that contraption was..... You can see a picture of one at: http://www.synthfool.com/thunder.gif Salam, Buck >>> >>> what is a bulcha thunder? PJ >> >> >That is a good question! Jeff > >The thunder is one of the more modern inventions of legendary synthesizer >pioneer Don Buchla. > >Thunder can best be described as a touch sensitive control surface. It has >a large assortment of pads and ribbon controllers that respond to the >location where you touch them and the amount of pressure you apply. These >can then be used to control any type of midi data you program it for. These >are all arranged in an ergonomic fashion on what a friend used to describe >as a "dinner serving tray." That's not quite accurate, but it gets you the >idea. (I think it's shaped more like the millenium falcon.) > >Don of course, is a brilliant and enigmatic individual. Great to have at >parties, but not so fun to work for. His musical instrument creations are >typically decades ahead of their time. He has a web site that only >describes his Lightning II, which is a synthesizer controller that uses two >wands that you can move in space for 3d control. http://www.buchla.com > >kim > >______________________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html >http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:31:33 -0500 (EST) From: PJBMHB@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: what in tarnation is a buchla thunder? Message-ID: <971114153130_1104605490@mrin86.mail.aol.com> what is a BUCHLA THUNDER???!!! Someone answer me!!! I feel I must know. =-) PJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:53:18 -0600 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 Message-ID: <346CD65E.2E0E@dmans.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Markus Reuter wrote: > i just spotted a Roland GR-700 guitar synth (including the > guitar) in a turkish second hand store over here in germany. > > is it worth getting it? > what's a reasonable price for a used GR-700 nowadays? > > thanks for your help! I would say buy it only if you are a collector. The new GR30 does so much more, sounds much better, tracks MUCH better, and can be had new for less than $1000 with the GK2A pickup. I think it includes a sequencer, too. Motley ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:05:22 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer To: 'Matt McCabe' , Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F4109ED@MAIL> Content-Type: text/plain I've seen the GR700 module in Boston for $350. Any of the Roland guitars will work with it (EXCEPT the GR500 from way back when...). I've seen the GR guitars for sale in the $300 range. As regular guitars, they're pretty good too. A bit heavy... David Kirkdorffer -----Original Message----- From: Matt McCabe [SMTP:mattm@bi-tech.com] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 1997 4:59 PM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 > From: Markus Reuter > i just spotted a Roland GR-700 guitar synth (including the > guitar) in a turkish second hand store over here in germany. > > is it worth getting it? > what's a reasonable price for a used GR-700 nowadays? I've never played one, but the earlier GR-300 is supposed to track better. The GR-700 uses MIDI to trigger the sounds (hence the delay) and I seem to remember that it didn't transmit pitch bend information (don't quote me on that). I remember that Andy Summers and Robert Fripp preferred the GR-300 because it "felt" better to play and had a more "organic" sound (it's basically an analog synth). Matt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 07:48:17 +0100 (MET) From: RHS Linux User To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jam Man Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would like to buy Lexicon Jam Man.Can you tell me, where is the nearest pleace where J can buy it because J live in Poland and there is no place J can purchase it . Leszek. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:14:54 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: GEAR Question: Roland GR-700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971115001454.00a25ec8@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:53 PM 11/14/97 -0600, Mikell D. Nelson wrote: >Markus Reuter wrote: >> i just spotted a Roland GR-700 guitar synth (including the >> guitar) in a turkish second hand store over here in germany. >> >> is it worth getting it? >> what's a reasonable price for a used GR-700 nowadays? >> >> thanks for your help! > > I would say buy it only if you are a collector. The new GR30 does so >much more, sounds much better, tracks MUCH better, and can be had new >for less than $1000 with the GK2A pickup. I think it includes a >sequencer, too. GR30's internal synth is sample playback, right? Since the GR-700 is analog, it will likely sound totally different. Whether it's better or not depends on what you want to do. I usually find sample playback synths to be completely unsatisfying, especially from a guitar controller. I tend to prefer the more "interesting" sounds to be found in other types, like analog. You can get a more unique sound, and the timbral nuances are typically more controllable. That's my taste, though.... If you want the guitar to sound similar to a grand piano or a crash cymbal or a tuba or whatever, than sample playback is the thing. kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:52:27 -0500 (EST) From: Darcy Clark To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Vortex for sale Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Found this on dejanews - I just bought the Jamman, but the Vortex is still for sale I think: Subject: Lexicon Vortex And Lexicon Jamman From: soundjones@aol.com (SOUNDJONES) Date: 1997/11/14 Message-ID: <19971114181401.NAA02988@ladder01.news.aol.com> Newsgroups: rec.audio.marketplace [More Headers] Both unit in excellent condition. Vortex Morphing Modulation effects -200.00 Jamman phraze sampler/delay- 200.00 Contact Troy at SOUNDJONES@AOL.COM Darcy Clark +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Materials Science and Engineering Department University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI, 48109-2136 USA +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Room 2130, Dow Building Phone (313) 764 3377 Fax (313) 763 4788 E-mail darcyc@engin.umich.edu http://msewww.engin.umich.edu/mse250 http://msewww.engin.umich.edu/people/darcyc/ http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~darcyc/ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --------------------------------