------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 2 Today's Topics: Re: JamMan Rumors [ Ed Drake ] Re: JamMan Rumors [ Trevor Bajus ] RE: Re[2]: JamMan Rumors [ "Hogan, Greg" ] Re: JamMan Rumors [ Ed Drake ] Re: Hi! all, and head to head loop c [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Heads down - Lex employee in the hou [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hu ] Go get NAMMed! [ KILLINFO@aol.com ] Re: Go get NAMMed! [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] re: JamMan Rumors [ "Bret Moreland" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan Rumors Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is related to my previous post this morning and I posted it once earlier today but I'm reposting it because there is something weird going on with my email and I'm not sure the list received it the first time. Sorry if you've already read it. Back on 12/19/96 Dpcoffin@aol.com said: >.... I called Bob Sellon, the guy who did Torn's PCM-42 tweaking >(he's at 617-280-0395...not the # in the GP article...and seems to work for >Lexicon) >Very interesting...I was asking if the Vortex could be expanded >delay-time-wise, and it seems not without the addition of another chip, for >which no provision was designed in. BUT, he claimed, 1: that he may be coming >out with some Jamman tweaks, and 2: that the just-out MPX from Lexicon Does >have space for extra memory/chips, thanks to his insisting on it at the >design stage, but no existing plans to actually use the space or expand its >sampling/looping capabilities...his advice? Call Lexicon and ask for extra >features. I just called and spoke with Bob for several minutes about some of this stuff and he said a couple of things: 1. Lexicon is no longer manufacturing the JamMan and after current stock is sold, there are no plans to make any more 2 . He is currently working on some JamMan mods. Lexicon is interested in licensing the software to Bob and another fellow to make some upgrades which include hearing multiple loops simultaneously, more odd time signature MIDI clock support,and some other tweaks which I can't recall now. The other proposed mod would be hardware including more memory for longer delay times and yes --STEREO INS AND OUTS. 3. He said he did plan to write some looping software for the new MPX when he has time ( it will probably be a while ). He said the MPX would be great for looping because it has chorusing, reverb, etc. which could be used in conjunction with the loops. 4. I told him about our list and he said for anyone interested in these JamMan tweaks to email him at so he can see how much interest and support is there for these mods and also to keep us posted on their progress Later Ed ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 15:42:54 +0000 From: Trevor Bajus To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan Rumors Message-ID: <32CD28FE.34C1@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon Durant wrote: > What I know is this: when the JamMen are gone from the warehouse, (when I left > there were still a good many tying up inventory dollars...) they'll be gone for > good. Unless something dramatic has happened to change things, but I doubt it. Does this mean it is a really good idea to get a JamMan now or a really bad idea to get one now? Trevor ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:40:00 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: Re[2]: JamMan Rumors Message-Id: <9701032151.AA11143@beryllium.lexicon.com> Todd Madson said: "Um, guys: Since the Vortex hit guitar center at blowout prices, maybe the Jam Man will also hit guitar center with similar prices in the future." We do not have anymore JAMMEN in stock. "And, for those who are bemoaning the lack of stereo: get a Vortex. The nicest, smoothest, ambient sounding stereo textures around. I don't know if it's true stereo or not, but it sounds great." In most programs Vortex is in true stereo. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I can do for you. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email:ghogan@lexicon.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:43:00 -0400 From: Ed Drake To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan Rumors Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is related to my previous post this morning Back on 12/19/96 Dpcoffin@aol.com said: >.... I called Bob Sellon, the guy who did Torn's PCM-42 tweaking >(he's at 617-280-0395...not the # in the GP article...and seems to work for >Lexicon) >Very interesting...I was asking if the Vortex could be expanded >delay-time-wise, and it seems not without the addition of another chip, for >which no provision was designed in. BUT, he claimed, 1: that he may be coming >out with some Jamman tweaks, and 2: that the just-out MPX from Lexicon Does >have space for extra memory/chips, thanks to his insisting on it at the >design stage, but no existing plans to actually use the space or expand its >sampling/looping capabilities...his advice? Call Lexicon and ask for extra >features. I just called and spoke with Bob for several minutes about some of this stuff and he said a couple of things: 1. Lexicon is no longer manufacturing the JamMan and after current stock is sold, there are no plans to make any more 2 . He is currently working on some JamMan mods. Lexicon is interested in licensing the software to Bob and another fellow to make some upgrades which include hearing multiple loops simultaneously, more odd time signature MIDI clock support,and some other tweaks which I can't recall now. The other proposed mod would be hardware including more memory for longer delay times and yes --STEREO INS AND OUTS. 3. He said he did plan to write some looping software for the new MPX when he has time ( it will probably be a while ). He said the MPX would be great for looping because it has chorusing, reverb, etc. which could be used in conjunction with the loops. 4. I told him about our list and he said for anyone interested in these JamMan tweaks to email him at so he can see how much interest and support is there for these mods and also to keep us posted on their progess Later Ed ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:51:34 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hi! all, and head to head loop comparason? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Trevor asked: >What are the big differences between the JamMan and Echoplex? What does >the Echoplex >have that you can't live without? I created a Plex-JM comparison file, two years ago. I guess its available at Oberheim. We could also put it on the site, maybe. But since JamMan is not available any more...? So far I will send it attached to you, Trevor and to Kim and Michael for avaliation. It gives some technical comparison, but I feel that does not really say it. Since I am not neutral and never tried the JamMan, I am not going to say more about it. On the site, there is a lot of information, somewhat spread, maybe. Take your time to avaliate. Its like buying a new instrument you are not able to play yet. Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:11:51 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: GHogan@lexicon.com Subject: Heads down - Lex employee in the house! Message-Id: <11285.199701041311@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greg Hogan: >Yes, it is true that we are no longer making the JAMMAN. There may be >limited availability at some stores. We do not currently have any plans to >release another dedicated looper. SHAME ON YOU!! :) >Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I >can do for you. Build another looper....? Greg, a word of warning. Jon Durant has been getting a lot of flak for Lex products, and he doesn't even work for 'em anymore. I wish you luck... ;) Good to have you on board! Michael (a jamman kinda guy) Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Everything in moderation, including moderation" (Zen Proverb) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:12:29 -0500 From: KILLINFO@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Go get NAMMed! Message-ID: <970104131229_1756519424@emout05.mail.aol.com> Greetings fellow loopfolk, Given the fact that we now know that the JamMan is being phased out at Lexicon, and that the Oberheim Plex's future might possibly be seen by some to be somewhat cloudy as well, what does this say to us about the extent of support for looping devices (as a concept) in the music industry/marketplace? To say the least, things do not look particularly bright. I, and a couple of others of you in the SoCal area that I have talked to privtely, happen to be going to the Winter NAMM show in Anaheim in a couple of weeks. I would sincerely encourage any of the rest of you who might possibly have access to a ticket (through a friend at a music store or some other source) not to pass up any chance to attend. It's a unique opportunity to see what's really out there product-wise (none of the magazines can ever really cover it completely). And, especially now, it's a terrific opportunity to tell some of these companies what you think of their product, past, present, and future. All of "big cheeses" and their "marketing people" will be there. This is a show that is almost as much about finding out about what people wanna buy as it is about trying to sell what's already been manufactured (at least the smarter companies are that way). If you have a chance to go, and looping is important to you, don't pass it up. It may be your only chance to grab a sales rep, a marketing person, or product engineer at your favorite manufacturer by the ears and let him (or her) really have it straight from the street-level customer in no uncertain terms. Do us all a favor. If you can, get to the NAMM show. Ted Killian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:19:52 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Go get NAMMed! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ted brought up a good wave: >Oberheim Plex's future might possibly be seen by some >to be somewhat cloudy as well, what does this say to us about the extent of >support for looping devices (as a concept) in the music industry/marketplace? >To say the least, things do not look particularly bright. True anyway. I do not want to promise anything yet, but it looks to me like the Oberheim clouds are getting dissolved! >I, and a couple of others of you in the SoCal area that I have talked to >privtely, happen to be going to the Winter NAMM show in Anaheim in a couple >of weeks. I would sincerely encourage any of the rest of you who might >possibly have access to a ticket (through a friend at a music store or some >other source) not to pass up any chance to attend. Nice idea. Bring some tape prooves of loop works. We should try to finish the sampler CD till then. (shit, still did not manage to burn and send my part!) >All of "big cheeses" and their "marketing people" will be there. This is a >show that is almost as much about finding out about what people wanna buy as >it is about trying to sell what's already been manufactured (at least the >smarter companies are that way). Very true. If only 100 people come up and say they want to loop, this can change a company plan! Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 97 15:50:14 MST From: "Bret Moreland" To: Subject: re: JamMan Rumors Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to all for the heads up about the Jamman being discontinued, and about Bob doing the mods. I found a floor demo unit at a Guitar Center for $239 (full warranty), so I ordered it. I thought this was a great price. Please advise a good place to buy the funky zip RAM used in the Jamman so I can max out the memory. What should I expect to pay for the RAM? bret ------------------------------ Date: 04 Jan 97 18:56:05 EST From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: a new classical minimalist recording Message-ID: <970104235604_100041.247_JHB125-1@CompuServe.COM> I'm just listening to a wonderful new recording that is a must for minimalist enthusiasts: A new recording (1993) of the classical 1974 Philip Glass work "Music in Twelve Parts", released on a 3-CD-set by Nonesuch. Long pieces which convey the exciting spirit of early minimalism much better than all the commercial stuff Glass did later when he got famous. Recommended! Michael Peters private: 100041.247@compuserve.com work: mp@harold-scholz.de http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters ------------------------------ Date: 04 Jan 97 19:35:53 EST From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: how's the Looper's CD? Message-ID: <970105003552_100041.247_JHB136-2@CompuServe.COM> > Bring some tape prooves of loop works. We should try to finish > the sampler CD till then. (shit, still did not manage to burn and send my part!) how many looping pieces have been submitted yet? Enough to get going, or are most people still working on their stuff? Michael Peters private: 100041.247@compuserve.com work: mp@harold-scholz.de http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:45:22 -0500 From: PMimlitsch@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: re: JamMan Rumors Message-ID: <970104194521_70630525@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 1/4/97 5:55:19 PM, Bret wrote: <> The best place to check is a local electronics store and NOT a music store(the music store will way over charge you). The manual lists, by manufacture and serial#, the chips needed. I upgraded mine a little over 2 years ago and the price at that time was $90.00. The installation is simple and the instructions are clearly shown in the manual. Good luck.---Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 20:53:34 -0500 From: "S. Patrick Hickey" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: re: JamMan Rumors Message-Id: <199701050153.UAA10735@nielsenmedia.com> Take this advice - I bought mine from Lexicon for more than twice that. :( Pat Hickey ***SPH brzrkr@nielsenmedia.com > The best place to check is a local electronics store and NOT a music > store(the music store will way over charge you). The manual lists, by > manufacture and serial#, the chips needed. I upgraded mine a little over 2 > years ago and the price at that time was $90.00. The installation is simple > and the instructions are clearly shown in the manual. Good luck.---Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:22:59 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: nyfac2@nyfac.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Just tried the Boomerang. Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:24 AM 1/3/97, Trevor Bajus wrote: >Well I just got a chance to try out the Boomerang loop pedal. > >It was very easy to use and had some cool feature on it, but the sound >quality was a bit >rough. The loops would be great for textureal stuff were definition is not >that important, >but playing leads on top of a simple rhythm figure just wasn't working for >me. The >salesman said that by adjusting the trim would help, but I don't know if >that could be all >that much of a help. > The sound quality is due to the low sampling rate of the Boomerang. The audio input is sampled at 16khz, meaning an effective bandwidth of 6-7khz or less. That's ok for guitar for some people. If you are picky about guitar sounds, you would probably notice this, especially with single coils. Attacks and definition are where it would suffer. In half speed mode the sample rate is 8khz, meaning a bandwidth probably under 3khz, which would be useful for sound effects, but would probably be pretty lousy for anything else. They have a lot of loop time in that thing, without any features that take advantage of it well. I don't know why they didn't cut the the loop time in half and double the sample rate. For $350, I would expect better sound quality, and decent audio a/d converters are really quite cheap. It would be a fun box at under $150, I think. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:40:30 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: GHogan@lexicon.com Subject: Re: Heads down - Lex employee in the house! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:11 AM 1/4/97, Dr M. P. Hughes wrote: >Greg Hogan: > > >Greg, a word of warning. Jon Durant has been getting a lot of flak for Lex >products, and he doesn't even work for 'em anymore. I wish you luck... ;) > >Good to have you on board! I'd like to welcome Greg to the list as well. It's great to see one of the frequently-mentioned-companies actually speaking for themselves rather than leaving the job to their ex-employees. I really had to chuckle a few mornings ago when I checked my mail and saw Jon doing back flips to explain one thing and defend another. For once it wasn't me! Thanks for joining us and for your candor Greg, and for clearing up a bunch of questions for folks. And in other frequently-mentioned-company news, Mike Lyon of Oberheim says that the rumored Echoplex price increase is in fact just a rumor. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:40:34 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: JamMan Rumors Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>In a message dated 1/3/97 12:30:58 PM, you wrote: >> >><>limited availability at some stores. We do not currently have any plans to >>release another dedicated looper. >> >>Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I >>can do for you. >> >>Best regards, >> >>Greg Hogan >>Lexicon Customer Service >>Phone 617-280-0372 >>FAX 617-280-0499>> >> >Is this really the wisest move on the part of Lexicon? I've had 4 friends >in my area, not exactly a hotbed of musical activity, pick up JamBoys or >Echoplexi in the last 6 months. I also see a lot more interest on the net >and in the press for looping devices, and not just on this list. And I see >a lot more musicians using them onstage in the last year. Maybe loopers are >devices that needed some time for the public to really get interested in >them, and that's starting to happen now. Is there any possibility on >Lexicon re-thinking this decision? > Modern corporate capitalism at work. If a product's sales are not increasing and showing healthy profits this quarter, the stockholders get a bit irritated, and the execs ax the product to make way for something capable of generating a profit by next thursday. Works great for the computer industry, totally wrong for musical instruments. Gibson gave me a great perspective on this. While I was working there, Gibson celebrated its 100 year anniversary. That company was creating legendary products long before companies like Lexicon even existed, or for that matter, before their founders were even born. At Gibson, it was always understood that some things just take time to develop. And at that company, there were plenty of examples that waiting can pay off big. Less than 2000 Les Pauls were sold in the first year of production. Now, decades later, they sell far more than that each month. What if companies like Gibson and Fender had bailed on electric guitars after the first few years when market acceptance was slow? Musical instruments are a different thing than modems and toothpaste, marketing-wise. They're slow to catch on, but once they do they hang around for a long time. You know its gonna happen when you see that "emotional response" from the first adventurous souls who try it out. Those are the ones who go off and make passionate music that gets the rest of the world interested. It can take a while, and the bean counters usually fail to get the process. Don't worry, though. There are plenty in the business who understand this. If Lexicon is giving up, its only a matter of time before someone else sees the opportunity and jumps on it. We just have to show them why they should! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 00:53:06 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan Stereo - D'oh! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jason Joseph said: >>You're quite correct: it's not your fault that you were given incorrect >information from these retailers. And I'm personally very sorry if you feel >that >you were mislead. < > >Ah, therein lies the rub. You're right of course; it's the retailers who, >having >represented themselves as products experts & etc, did the bulk of the >misleading. Apparently my fury has been misdirected... Please accept my >humble apologies for the rant... Should have waited a few days before >writing that one. Jason is replying to a letter from Greg Hogan of Lexicon, which was sent to a few of us. Greg's statement on the matter ought to be public, since he sent it before he actually joined the list. Here it is: >Dear sirs, > >Jonathan Brainen forwarded your recent postings in loopers-delight regarding >the JAMMAN to me. It was not the intention of Lexicon to be deceiving in >offering stereo in and out of the JAMMAN while the processing is mono. I do >not no why no one thinks that it is useful for your dry signal to remain in >stereo allowing you to play over your (mono)loop in stereo. > >I would also like to know where the deception lies in the owners manual. I >am responsible for customer service here at Lexicon and I would be happy to >address any of your questions and concerns. > >Best regards, > >Greg Hogan >Lexicon Customer Service >Phone 617-280-0372 >FAX 617-280-0499 Jason continues: >I also shouldn't have fallen into the trap of believing anything a retailer >says... how stupid of me. I do still feel, however, that the fact that the >looping capabilities of the JamMan are mono only should be CLEARLY >and prominently displayed on the unit, in advertising, etc... Again, any >musician who sees such a device, and sees that it has "stereo" outputs, >is going to naturally assume, unless knocked over the head with a brick >(d'oh!) that the output will be in stereo. If this was clearly displayed on >the >unit then we wouldn't have to rely on the misleading input of sales people. > This is basically my point as well. Many people were apparently confused by this aspect of the Jamman. Its sort of a moot point now, obviously, but in the future, all I ask is that Lexicon try to make their products such that people can easily determine what they are getting and whether or not it meets their needs. Whether that means better labeling, or better sales training, or what, is up to the folks at Lexicon. We'll just sit here and self-righteously judge the results! :-) kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:41:06 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan Rumors Message-Id: <29008.199701051141@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim said: >Gibson gave me a great perspective on this. While I was working there, >Gibson celebrated its 100 year anniversary. That company was creating >legendary products long before companies like Lexicon even existed, or for >that matter, before their founders were even born. At Gibson, it was always >understood that some things just take time to develop. And at that company, >there were plenty of examples that waiting can pay off big. Less than 2000 >Les Pauls were sold in the first year of production. Now, decades later, >they sell far more than that each month. What if companies like Gibson and >Fender had bailed on electric guitars after the first few years when market >acceptance was slow? I thought they dropped the Les Paul after 8 years because of low sales, hence the SG model? Certainly, there were only 2000ish Sunbursts (now known as Standards) made between 1958-1960, hence the fact that they now cost more than a typical house. >Don't worry, though. There are plenty in the business who understand this. >If Lexicon is giving up, its only a matter of time before someone else sees >the opportunity and jumps on it. We just have to show them why they should! Go Alesis! :) Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Everything in moderation, including moderation" (Zen Proverb) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:58:31 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan Rumors Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:41 AM 1/5/97, Dr M. P. Hughes wrote: >Kim said: > >>Gibson gave me a great perspective on this. While I was working there, >>Gibson celebrated its 100 year anniversary. That company was creating >>legendary products long before companies like Lexicon even existed, or for >>that matter, before their founders were even born. At Gibson, it was always >>understood that some things just take time to develop. And at that company, >>there were plenty of examples that waiting can pay off big. Less than 2000 >>Les Pauls were sold in the first year of production. Now, decades later, >>they sell far more than that each month. What if companies like Gibson and >>Fender had bailed on electric guitars after the first few years when market >>acceptance was slow? > >I thought they dropped the Les Paul after 8 years because of low sales, >hence the SG model? They dropped the Les Paul and put out new guitars that were supposed to be improvements. They were still essentially the same thing, just redesigned to hopefully appeal better to the more "modern" tastes. (The SG had the nice addition of another cutaway and a body design that weighed less than a typical house.) It would be like if Lex were killing the Jamman to make way for the JamSon (with stereo loops!) or something. >Certainly, there were only 2000ish Sunbursts (now >known as Standards) made between 1958-1960, hence the fact that they now >cost more than a typical house. It didn't take Gibson too long to notice this. That's why they can now charge whatever they like for the reissue versions and still be backordered for a year. Not a bad business.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com --------------------------------