------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 204 Today's Topics: Re: Top ten list [ jprice@intcpi.com (John Price) ] NJ Loops [ PMimlitsch@aol.com ] Re: Top ten list [ Sean Echevarria ] RE: On being complete nerds [ Laurie Hatch ] Re:Lo-Fi StutterinG [ R & T Cummings ] Re: On being complete nerds [ Randy Jones ] Re: On being complete nerds [ lowfrqcy@west.net (Ryan Blum) ] re: nerds [ hovard@online.no ] RE: Occult loops [ 7302 <7302@ssj.dtu.dk> ] Re: Occult loops [ AREA04/ Eric K ] Re: da' 10 joints [ John Michael Beard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Murphy wrote: > > Top 10 Currently in Rotation (not in any order) > > 1 Toy Matinee > 2 3rd Matinee > 3 Aimee Mann > 4 October Project > 5 Deana Carter > 6 Twila Paris > 7 Beatles > 8 Phil Keagey > 9 Freedy Johnston > and a person can't listen to music all the time so #10 is > 10 Seinfeld > > At 02:24 PM 11/18/97 -0600, you wrote: > >In general, I tend to go through artists rather than specific pieces or > >albums. So here's a list of some I have been listening to in the last > >week: > > > >Arvo Part > >Annonymous Four (four women doing a hell of a job reviving medeival vocal > >music - check out the English Lady Mass) > >Jeff Buckley > >Jeremy Enigk > >Miriam Makeba > >Sarah Vaughn (as always) > >Cafe Tacuba > >Fugazi* > >The Make*Up > >Mail Order Bride* > >(*these three bands are my favorite DC-based groups...all of them have > >websites so check'm out!!) > > > >And one more specific piece: Carmina Burana by Carl Orff, the lyrics are > >great and the drive of this piece is compelling. I went through a phase > >with this one years back and just picked it up again this week - worth > >listening to again!! > > > >This list makes me realize I need to go on a shopping spree... > > > > > > > > > > I was surprised to see someone mention "Talk, Talk's", last ever album, "Laughing Stock". That album is one of the best ever rock ( Im unsure as to whether or not the term rock really applies to the stuff they were producing near the end ) pieces ever produced (IMHO:). Its highly listenable, lush and full of rich and well placed tones form both a guitar perspective and an orchestral perspective. "Laughing Stock" is like an unintended means of closure to the radical turn their music took in the later years. They were really a Great group that was never given their full due credit. Other ( Extremely Biased towards my tastes ) Faves: Return to Forever - I think Chick C. said somewhere he knew he'd have a tough time topping this effort. He said it was gonna stay with him as the pinnacle of his musical style in everyones mind forever. I know I'd kill to have an albatross like that around my neck. Kate Bush - The Sensual World - Her last real album. Now everybody from Sinead'Oconner to Tori Amos cop her sound better than Kate Bush does Kate Bush. Bitches Brew - We all know what this one was about and how its influence is still felt today across many genres. See any Jazz based Hip Hop acts source for loops and this is a standadrd bearer. White Light, White Heat - Velvet Underground and Lou Reed at their finest. "The most influential band ever", according to Brian Eno ( Reason: everybody who bought their albums started bands ) Murmur REM - Still arguably their best album ever. A Southern American folky version of U2 meets the Byrds without a digital delay. Great stuff that works beacause of the youth and sincerity of the band. They came out of nowhere in 83 and quickly became critics faves. Under a Blood Red Sky - U2 - Open Strings with a digital delay never sounded finer. New Order is still jealous of where these guys took the original Joy Division sound and even more surprised as to where they finally abandoned it. Discipline, Islands or Lizard - 3 personal faves of mine - one album is restrained, subtle & underrated while the other is a free form freak out with Fripp's legendary chops glaring at the helm. Discipline is monumental for its departure from expectations and the Crimson history per se. Discipline is killer creative leaping at its most refined and chaotic - you gotta listen closely to notice that its spirit is no different than all the rest of Crimso's efforts - its just a different approach combined with 2 new faces executed to precision. Passion - Peter Gabriel's Masterpiece Trans Europe Express - U have this record hidden somewhere - even if youre a metalhead :) Laughing Stock Talk Talk Avalon Roxy Music Purple Rain - Prince - OK, OK, OK, Im a scorpio child of the 80's. What else can I say ??? :) Prince is still the most exciting and possibly the last & best pure pop/entertainer/performer we have left in the business. Talking Heads - 77 P-Funk w/ Clinton One Nation under a groove. Hot Stuff !!! Kip Hanrahan - any of his albums are woth a listen if u can find em. Art of Noise - Paranomia - Loopded delights galore - All with the Fairlight ??? If I recall. Thomas Dolby - Flat Earth - highly underated. Soft Cell's Non Stop Erotic Caberet - Pop - Pop - Pop - Synths !! Bauhaus - 1979 - 1983 - Goth was tres cool and relevant back then. Reagan and Thatcher were in Power. That in and of itself were justification enough for Dooom and wearing all Black w/make-up. Daniel Ash and Peter Murphy made it all sound better. Even Bowie liked their Bowiesqueness - ck out the opening of the movie, " the hunger" and there is Bauhaus. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:15:07 -0500 (EST) From: PMimlitsch@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: NJ Loops Message-ID: <971118191506_-2041816021@mrin44.mail.aol.com> Adelante will be playing at "The Rocking Chair" ((609)967-3200) in Avalon N.J. this Fri. 8:30pm to closing. Adelante is Paul Mimlitsch (Stick(R)/Loops), Jody Janetta (Percussion), Michael Robbins (Violin/Viola), and Ralph Anastasio (Bass). Adelante's primary performance tool is extended spontaneous improvisation. The musician's thrive off of the musical energy of the moment with each member bringing to the table a diverse pallette of musical stylings/experiences. Hope to see you there. Thanks. - Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:36:12 -0800 From: Sean Echevarria To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Top ten list Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971118163612.009f8880@global.california.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:37 PM 11/18/97 -0500, jprice@intcpi.com wrote: >Return to Forever - I think Chick C. said somewhere he knew he'd have a >tough time topping this effort. He said it was gonna stay with him as >the pinnacle of his musical style in everyones mind forever. I know I'd >kill to have an albatross like that around my neck. >Kate Bush - The Sensual World - Her last real album. Now everybody from >Sinead'Oconner to Tori Amos cop her sound better than Kate Bush does >Kate Bush. >Under a Blood Red Sky - U2 - Open Strings with a digital delay never >sounded finer. New Order is still jealous of where these guys took the >original Joy Division sound and even more surprised as to where they >finally abandoned it. > Great commentary! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:45:21 -0800 (PST) From: Ken Fletcher To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: On being complete nerds Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Okay, but I must admit I was >attracted< by the nerdy, geeky nature of this mailing list! Here's some stuff I've been listening to lately: ********************************************* ELpH vs COIL worship the glitch Hitting Birth (depending on which side of the cd case you believe, the album is called "Thirst of the Fast Three Years," "Kiss of the Last Three Tears," or "Fast of the Thirst Free Years.") Kristin Hersh "Hips and Makers" The Best of Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers: The Berserkley Years Babes With Axes "Live Axe" Can "Saw Delight" Hazel "Lucky Dog" (this was the advance cd title; I don't know what the released title was; 1993 Sub Pop) Wire "The Ideal Copy" Team Dresch "Personal Best" Rattlecake (self-titled) Janos Starker plays Boccherini, Back, Vivaldi, Corelli, Locatelli, Valentini (early-mid '60s recordings of a fine cellist, accompanied by Gyorgy Sebok, piano) Ani DiFranco "Living In Clip" and "Not a Pretty Girl" Jethro Tull (inspired by seeing them a couple weeks ago in Eugene, I've been going through my whole collection, which includes most everything from "This Was" through "A") ********************************* I guess there's not much looping in that list! Oh well. I love Public Enemy. They do a lot of looped spoken-word samples on their later stuff, amongst all the other crazy sounds in their mixes. On to looping that I like to do... One thing I have done a lot of is take three carefully chosen sampled loops of similar but not exactly the same length, and either start them going at the same time or introduce the second and third loops at places that feel appropriate in the first loop. Then I like to let them play and listen to how they slide against each other, always revealing something new in their juxtaposition. For example, my very first loop-based piece consisted of 1) a couple of measures of the drums after the guitar fades out at the end of "Behind the Wall of Sleep" on Black Sabbath's first album, 2) the snakey bass-line from the beginning of "Bassically" which is the very next piece on the same album, and 3) Patti Smith's intro vocals to "Gloria" on her "Horses" album: "Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine." I rolled the drums first, then brought in the bass, then Patti. Simple, but I was hooked! It was so mesmerizing to listen to the loops slip past each other: each time one would come around again, the other loops would be in different relative positions. Perhaps I am easily amused, but this affected me powerfully! Describing my latest loop fun necessitates speaking of gear. Last weekend I dug out my old Commodore-64 and an ancient little program called "SID Editor" (from COMPUTE!'s Gazette magazine, June 1984) which is a BASIC utility that lets you set and alter in real time all the parameters of the 64's wonderful sound chip (Sound Interface Device). I had played with this program a 13 years ago but was not really into audio experimentation like I am now. Anyway....the SID chip has three oscillators, each with selectable frequencies, waveforms and envelopes, plus there are filters, ring modulation, and synchronization available (I'm not really versed in all these terms, so I'll just say that there are a bunch of parameters you can play with!) How does this relate to looping? Well, basically you can set up the three oscillators, etc., to create rhythmic or quite turbulent sounds as they resonate and interfere with each other, and by careful changes in frequency and other settings, you can arrive at incredible repeating patterns of cascading complex sounds, some very weird and funky, some very beautiful (I've heard similar sounds tuning around on a shortwave radio, but this was better because I could control them in very interesting ways). I guess I can generalize this discussion by asking if any of you have ever played with multiple oscillators to create loops? In this case the sounds themselves are the source of the loop, because of the interference patterns (moire effects?) created. I know this is not looping in the sense that is most often discussed here, but what the heck.... -Ken Fletcher ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:29:04 -0800 From: Laurie Hatch To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: On being complete nerds Message-ID: <01BCF447.8D8B4020.lahatch@dnai.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Kim, ya got me out of the closet with that one. Another looping lurker unveils. Been listening to: Lester Bowie's Brass Fantasy Ten piece brass ensemble, cutting-edge jazz. Saw a performance a few months ago in Santa Cruz -- these guys will turn you inside out. Every player is a monster (killin french horn and bone, but the tuba dude just knocked my sox off. ) Lester (trumpet) has been a long time--all time top five fave of mine; I highly recommend his solo albums, plus Art Ensemble of Chicago in addition to Brass Fantasy recordings. He's also on: Jack DeJohnette "New Directions" Besides Lester, there's John Abercrombie (guitar), and Eddie Gomez (bass). These are all DeJohnette compositions. This is one of my all time jazz top 10's. Ry Cooder "Jazz" Jeez, I love Cooder. On this album, he plays old-time New Orleans jazz favorites with some superb cats who've practically defined their respective genres. Gary Peacock and Bill Frisell "Just so happens" Check out 'Home On The Range' 1 and 2. I've had the great privilege of doing a few lessons with Gary, years back. His sensitive, expressive playing is a real reflection of the extraordinary, generous man that he is. And then there's Bill... Nawang Khechog "Rhythms of Peace" First heard this in a little Tibetan import shop. Tibetan bamboo flute, didgeridoo, gongs, bells, drums. Exquisite, spacious music. I think he'd dig a looper. Sadhappy "good day bad dream" Michael Manring, plus bassist Paul Hinklin (yeah, two basses) and drummer Evan Schiller from Seattle. Beefy, inspiring bass playing, rockin, solid stuff. I listen to this often. (Michael's the one who really got me inspired about doing my own digital looping. Saw him with his Jamhunks, first time I'd heard those devices used. Looked for them on the web, landed at the Looper's site, pestered Kim for awhile, and here I am.) Israel Lopez Cachao "Latin Jazz Descarga", parts 1 and 2. If you listen to any Latin at all, listen to this. These guys roast. Guillermo Rios "Soul of Spain" Passionate, evocative Flamenco guitar. Superb chops make his sound fluid, eloquent, intense. The live performance I attended was deeply moving. This CD is aptly titled. He lives and plays in the LA area. And right now I'm listening to bassoonist / reed man Paul Hanson - "Astro Boy Blues". He's phenomenal. Also appears with Paul Dresher. (You reading, Paul D? Heard you for the first time Saturday at Santa Cruz. It was outstanding! Great compositions, compelling performance.) Since I'm new to the list, I'd like to say, mondo thanks -- especially to Kim, Matthias, and the many others who continue to inform and sustain this extraordinary and entertaining resource! You all have collectively inspired me to search for (and find!) STRANGE TOYS. Yeah! (And that's all I'm gonna say about gear for now, kim. %^) Lately I've been walking around with a possessed, wild look in my eyes. Compositional inspiration? I confess I'm still at the stage where punching a button and playing a few layers is a complete revelation. Voila. In my naivete I'm easily entertained. Laurie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:05:15 -0500 From: R & T Cummings To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re:Lo-Fi StutterinG Message-ID: <199711182005_MC2-28AE-FA6@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline This is a somewhat late response to the Stuttering discussion, but I thought I might share this technique I recently discovered for *stuttering* live percussion samples with the Jamman: 1) In Sample mode, record a relatively short sample containing a distinct beat at the beginning 2) Increasing the trigger sensitivity with the Select knob to a large value (e.g. I use a value between 9 and 13 for triggering from a microphone) 3) With sufficiently large input signals (i.e. *triggers*) the first part of the sample *stutters*. 4) Increased Fun: Feed back a part of the sample signal acoustically (e.g. stage monitor/ microphone) and play around with the sensitivity setting to get some extremely bizarre, almost random *stutter* effects! WARNING: this will drive any other musicians nuts who are trying to play in time with your sample! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:37:57 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Top ten list Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971119013757.007668d4@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:37 PM 11/18/97 -0500, John Price wrote: >Return to Forever - I think Chick C. said somewhere he knew he'd have a >tough time topping this effort. He said it was gonna stay with him as >the pinnacle of his musical style in everyones mind forever. I know I'd >kill to have an albatross like that around my neck. funny, I'm sitting here listening to a Squarepusher track, and I'm pretty sure he's using a bunch of Return to Forever samples. Or it could be from one of Al DiMeola's albums. Time has blurred those together in my mind.... The agressive beat makes it a little cooler now, but not much. ;-) Squarepusher: is this track drum n' bass? 70's Jazz Fusion? both? neither? Why would you go to so much trouble using drum n' bass techniques to make something that sounds like Weather Report? Fusion - let it rest in peace.....:-) kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:57:13 -0600 From: Randy Jones To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: On being complete nerds Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971118185710.006cbec8@texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What I be doing... Finally broke down and bought the Momo Aida Vid. She gets done in the back of a Suburban driving down some Japanese freeway. The moans from the TV feed into the volume pedal which feeds into the Plex then into one of the Vortex's, I pump her up and down (ahem) and play along with the Dub, then switch to the old Roland 300 and run it through the other Vortex all through the old 4 channel Panasonic amp out through the double D9's and the two Whomping JBLs. Am I doing something wrong, Mommy? I'm getting skinniner and skinner... Leonard Cohen (burnning lady one) Dylan Blonde on Blonde Cure Disintegration Couple of Bill Nelsons Miles Bitches Brew Bjork latest Ana Gabrielle (three of em) Tom Waits (Black Rider) Xin Tron Tuoi Loan (Huong Lan Manh Quynh2) Huh? Romeo Void ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:18:19 -0800 (PST) From: lowfrqcy@west.net (Ryan Blum) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: On being complete nerds Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My turn.... 1. Miles: _Miles Smiles_ My favorite miles album (not that I own a lot...). Orbits drives me crazy... 2. Chick Corea/Miroslav Vituous/Roy Haynes - _Trio Music_ This album is half amazing "free" improvs (they are amazingly tight) and half monk tunes...very very hip stuff from before the Elektrik Band days. 3. Bill Frisell - _Quartet_ I'm sure most of you are familiar with this. Even though i'm a bass player, I love the no bass and drums arrangements...Mr. Bill is a guitarist, bassist, percussionist, horn player and Dj rolled into one! 4. Beck - _Odelay_ If you haven't seen beck in concert, find someway to do it as soon as possible. Trust me. 5. Marc Johnson's Right Brain Patrol - _Magic Labyrinth_ this is very very hip trio stuff from a great bassist...bass/guitar/percussion, and ther percussion guy uses looped acoustic percussion for the majority of the record, and Johnson uses some sustained bowed notes that could either be overdubs or some tasty loop work on a a couple tracks. Very very very hip stuff including a killer bass/perc. duet version of Solar where the head is sorta hinted at every once in a while, but never blatantly played. 6. Eberhard Weber _Pendulum_ This guy is very very cool..."the bass as an orchestra" as bass player magazine titled it...Thick, beautiful tones from a true original. 7. Mingus _the black saint and sinner lady_ Mingus, IMO, is the coolest individual ever, and certainly one of the greatest american musicians/composers. His autobiography is a bit scary, though.... 8. Metheny/Ornette _Song X_ I really like it. Not sure why, but i do. I think it's gotta be the Charlie haden-isms all through out...or ornette's melodic playing, or Metheny's psycho comping, or the great drumming by mr DeJohnette and the littler coleman. Maybe i do know why! 9. Paul Motain _Bill Evans_ someone else mentioned the Motain Trio...all this stuff is extremely hip new-jazz-whatever stuff...the bass-less trio stuff is great with tons of frisell and the albums with Charlie Haden are cool, and this one has Marc Johnson, one of my favorite cats, on it...neat-o stuff! 10. Pavement - _Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain_ oh to have pop sensibilities like these fellows...a close second to this album is Nirvana's _In Utero_, IMHO. -- "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:49:50 +0100 From: hovard@online.no To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: re: nerds Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971118234908.00696938@online.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for the blunt and honest comment (geek/gear etc.)!!!! I have felt the same way but was too chicken to speak up :) !!! This weeks top ten list , in no particular order: Bill Frisell - where in the world Tal Farlow - This is tal farlow Trey Gunn - The third Star ( feut. the wonderful mr Pat Mastelotto on drums) Peter Gabriel - us , so , live etc... John Scofield - Pick hits Shakti - with John Mclaughlin Jim Hall - conciertio Eurythmix - best of King Crimson - Starless and Bible Black , thrak Bill Frisell and Elvis Costelo - deep dead blue As you can see this is a fairly regular list compared to the stuff some of u listed(most of which I have never heard off!).This is probably coz I live in Norway and underground trends are never picked up on by media/cdstores. Sorry if the list was boring...:) My approach to playing is that I play two different instruments: 1. "electronic guitar" : when I wear this hat it is of no relevance to me if the sounds coming out of my speaker resembles guitar or not. I treat my guitar like a tonegenerator and think in a textural/mood mode. This is where looping is interesting to me ; I can take up more space ,if desired , and give a more organic alternative to keyboard-instruments ( no offence !) It also frees me up to shift focus on the music and zero in on different things ( look ma! I`m playing wah with the hihat!) while the loop takes care of the harmonic demands of the song. Obviously , this has its limitations. 2. Electric guitar : When I`m in these pants I just get a cable and stick it into my amp , and guitar , but this approach (while very valuable) is of no interest to you guys ,so I`ll shut up now. Anyway , I have taken up this space because I feel this is stuff that is more valuable to us as MUSICIANS , as well as guitarists. I hope we can get more discussions on this subject , and thank you Kim , for pionting out that the emperor is almost completely nude ( and not very sexy)......chew on that , guys!! Your looper in Norway , Thomas Woehni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 03:24:22 +0100 From: 7302 <7302@ssj.dtu.dk> To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Occult loops Message-ID: <7906A58B2207D011B4CE00A024CF8B49070936@www.ihs.dk> Content-Type: text/plain Hi out there! Well, I guess if there are weirdoes on this list I'm one of them, so ... Do you know about "Brainwave Synchronization" ???? It's about getting the brain into a given state of awareness by getting the sounds in sync with a given brainwave frequency depending on what state you want to make to listener have ... like dreamy sleep, better concentration etc. It's only works with headphones! (What a shame). This is just one thing that I'm into of weird stuff ... but enough for now. Please tell more about this organization. Bye for now and enjoy life all, Stefan. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:57:42 -0600 From: AREA04/ Eric K To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Occult loops Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971118175739.008a9c50@www.area04.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:54 PM 11/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >93 all! > >Kim asked for non-gear oriented threads, so let's see >what sort o' weirdos hang out here in looper-land. > >As a member of an occult fraternal organization, I >have opportunity to investigate the subtler >capabilities of sound looping/delay. please expound... >Personally, I find that running a static loop for what type of static loops are you useing, ie what is the content and how long is it...? are you working with specific tempos? >astral applications (i.e. guided imagery travel) to >be not as effective as a more delay oriented >approach. The evolving effect that can be achieved >with a long delay time and long decay seems to be >more effective for creating a "travelogue." are you useing any specific repeat or decay times? >On the other hand, the hypnotic effect of a repeating >sound (or texture) can also be quite effective. > >Thoughts? > >93 > >Rev. DOubt-Goat >__________________________________________________________________ >Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com > Eric K www.Area04.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:28:27 -0600 From: John Michael Beard To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: da' 10 joints Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971118082827.006ab29c@pop.flash.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I usually load up the player with a lot of disks, more or less at random. [I have a cheap 25-disk changer] Here's the first 10 from this week's load: 1.Future Sound Of London: Lifeforms 2.Art Of Noise: Drum And Bass Collection 3.The Heavenly Music Corporation 4.Meat Beat Manifesto: Storm The Studio 5.William Orbit: Strange Cargo 6.Robert Fripp: A Blessing Of Tears 7.Mindbender 8.Brian Eno: Thursday Afternoon 9.Live: Throwing Copper 10.Stereolab: Transient Random-noise Bursts With Announcements John Beard www.flash.net/~jbstudio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:11:42 -0600 From: Grover Sheffield To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: On being complete nerds Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971119031142.00689a8c@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:29 PM 11/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >OK Kim, ya got me out of the closet with that one. >Another looping lurker unveils. Enjoyed your post. Hope you, family and friends are well. I'm changing jobs and flying to Paris (unrelated to work, opportunity beckoned) with Joan sans kids for a week to spend our 17th anniversary. I'm still in denial, but am going to pick the tickets up this Thursday. Take care. Let me know what you're up to. Grover --------------------------------