------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: Re: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! [ miguel.barella@poyry.com.br (MAT) ] RE: Controller pedal (and Vortex foo [ Laurie Hatch ] RE: nerds, music, cd's, looping, vol [ Laurie Hatch ] Tennish [ bryan.helm@dinosaur.com ] Discipline Global Mobile [ Len Seligman ] Unsubscribe [ "Jim Mallon" ] November Suite DGM [ "John Stevens" ] bye for now... [ JSPEEr ] RE: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! [ Michael Peters ] Re: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! [ "Matt McCabe" ] Re: Occult loops [ Bret ] RE: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! [ Bret ] Re: Occult loops [ "T.W. Hartnett" , "Matt McCabe" Subject: Re: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! Message-ID: <00005BEA.4007@poyry.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part If you need aproval you already got mine. Miguel ___________________________ Separador de Resposta ______________________________ Assunto: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! Autor: "Matt McCabe" na internet Data: 20/11/1997 08:06 > From: Kim Flint > >And how about our own sample CD or label? > > There was the cd project from long ago, but the guy organizing it > disappeared. Anybody want to take a project like that? Or maybe we even set > up RealAudio sites? Anything is possible. I hereby volunteer to organize the CD project. Uhh....should we take a vote? I freelance at a local studio and therefore have FREE (I didn't say that) access to various pieces of recording gear that will come in handy for compiling submissions (ProTools, ADAT, DAT, etc). Heck, I can even process credit card orders should we wish to release the CD to the world and make MILLIONS....errrr....spread the good word (you know, Looping). I'll wait for the official stamp of approval before proceeding. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:30:41 -0800 From: Laurie Hatch To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Controller pedal (and Vortex footswitches) Message-ID: <01BCF5A0.7043DF40.lahatch@dnai.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Anybody have a source for buying a controller pedal (for midi cc and >Vortex) at a good price? >Thanks >Neil >ngold@imagina.com >Portland, OR USA Don't get your hopes up... this one's not an errant private post. %^) I'm sidestepping your question about the cc/expression pedal, Neil. However, it did remind me of something I was told recently, maybe news to some, it was to me. (This info was probably posted the day before I started subscribing to the list!) Thank you, Greg H. for also confirming this: Vortex footswitches can still be ordered from Lexicon - take it from there Greg... Discpic of the day: "Talking Timbuktu" Ali Farka Toure with Ry Cooder, and special guests Clarence 'Gatemouth' Brown, Jim Keltner, and John Patitucci. Morph on (More fun?) laurie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:38:06 -0800 From: Laurie Hatch To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: nerds, music, cd's, looping, volunteering... Message-ID: <01BCF5A0.74190320.lahatch@dnai.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim wrote: >Also, I think that talks like this bring us closer together as a community. >Musical tastes reflect a lot of things about our personalities and lives >and experiences, and by sharing them we open those parts of ourselves to >the others in a way that is easy and comfortable. We get to know each other >better and can more easily move from there to richer conversation. I >learned a lot about some people here that I didn't expect, and I'm happy >about that! And I was also glad to see a number of people venture out who >had been shy about posting so far. We're glad to have you, please continue >to share your thoughts.... Thanks Kim! And so I will. >The cd lists maybe are not always about looping, but that's fine. It's easy >to move from there back to the loop. But actually, it is about looping if >you step back a bit and look at the whole of it. Stepping back...indeed, it is not necessarily the tool that defines the loop. It is all too easy to assign that musically divine function exclusively to our various beloved looping instruments. Those tools are, however, inspiring and responsive co-creators with which we bring our internal loops to fruition. And using them teaches us to more perceptively recognize the loop in *all* that we hear (both within and without), regardless of source. >Our collective listening >habits reflect a remarkable amount of diversity here, in our looping >community. Looping is not stuck in one genre, it crosses a lot of >boundaries. These differences among us are opportunities to grow. We can >learn from others what we never would have realized on our own, and bring >those new ideas back to our own part of the universe. That's an understatement! This exchange has been fascinating. Thanks everybody... laurie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 11:58:20 -0700 From: bryan.helm@dinosaur.com To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Tennish Message-ID: <9711201158.0GTHH00@dinosaur.com> What am I listening too? Truth be known... 1. The difference between the way the train horn resonates now as opposed to mid summer, the absence of leaves, the presence of snow, all the variations of the way the engineer signals with it, how it blends in with whatever I'm listening to, how it sounds at my house as opposed to other parts of town or out on the plains. The tracks are a mile away and the stereo is glorious. 2. My aging clothes dryer which (my brother tells me) is wearing out a bearing, hence the wonderfull polyrhytmic tumbling antics that erupt every new load of clothes dryed( with 2 boys 8 & 13 yrs dirty clothes are plentiful). Latin jazz seems to benefit most directly from this device's ambience. 3. Various and sundry video game soundtracks as it were, my personal favorite is the music for the N-64 Star Wars game which almost makes John Williams an ambient artist, or at least a minimalist if you just let the game idle. I don't play but listening is cool. 4. My last few looping adventures, gotta work on shorter pieces, the minutes add up fast. Trying to utilize more varied and shorter duration loops to expand the pallette in lieu of expanding the loop memory (pronounced $$$$). Enjoying the results of Vortexing slowed down sounds on the EH-16, big metal scraping noises, a prepared 11 string guitar. The same set-up was great for this years Halloween tape, this years victim the Tocatta and Fugue married with screams and laughs thru twisted pitch fits and scary synth noise, apologies to J.S.B. 5. Sylvian/Fripp- Damage---If you want to hear R.F. really play with enthusiasm, this and the live League of Gentleman disc are among the best examples released in recent years. Though the performances are I think 14 years apart, and the bands, instrumentation and intent are quite different, I think both these recordings are great examples of Fripp's tactal and textural control as a guitarist, and "Damage" shows in a wonderfully lush way how powerful loops are as part of a multi-instrument configuration. 6. Lol Creme & Kevin Godley---visionary misfits on vinyl still shine brightly..."Consequences"...the whole catalog of the doowop-R&B Hebrew duo is still viable listening. And talk about production technique....for the time..... 7. Walter/Wendy Carlos-- Different titles but specificly the piece titled "Timesteps" from the "Clokwork Orange" album by Carlos (the edited version appears on the soundtrack lp). Pioneering tales from analog land. 8.Thelonius Monk- "Solo Monk"--This collection of tunes just keeps getting better.Nobody like him! 9.The Finn Brothers-- In Split Enz,Crowded House, Tim and Neil always entertain and amuse, and the live duo show was one of the most musically entertaining concerts that I've been to over the last 25 years. 10.Suzanne Vega- "Nine Objects of Desire"----The marriage literally and figurtively of S.Vega to one Mitch Froom and his accompanying techniques and devices make this disc very listenable,smart and sincere. It's no Top-10, but it's what got heard most recently here... Bryan Helm Techno-Primitive Longmont,CO "Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a good book. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." G. Marx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:04:35 -0500 From: Len Seligman To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Discipline Global Mobile Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971120140435.006f356c@dharma.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:55 PM 11/20/97, Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D. wrote: >>"Pie Jesu" is wonderful. I love this, and "Blessing of Tears", more than >>my other Fripp Soundscape CDs. >>I was looking for "Outer darkness" everywhere (in Germany), but I cannot >>get it for some reason. And I haven't heard of "November Suite" ... >>Where did you get these? > >They're available, direct-only, from Discipline Global Mobile. The albums >are to be found on www.discipline.co.uk, along with 1-minute samples from >all the albums in the DGM catalogue. You also get the story behind the >November suite, which is (a) slightly sad (b) something we could all >probably relate to and (c) quite amusing in parts, including Fripp's >post-gig grocery shopping. Thanks to Michael Hughes for posting the info on Discipline Global Mobile, Fripp's very interesting indie label. The web site Michael mentioned, http://www.discipline.co.uk has lots of great stuff in it, including some scathing commentary on the mainstream music biz. Unfortunately, GDM doesn't yet have on-line ordering, so you have to do it by mail. The UK address is listed at the web site, but to request a catalog in the US, you have to send a request with your name and address to PossProd@aol.com. It looks like a label worth supporting. -Len ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:16:25 EST From: "Jim Mallon" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: <16EFD9E29FD@academic.fpc.edu> The ant and I worlds apart yet share the same space - Old proverb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:30:46 EST From: "Jim Mallon" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: <16F3AE52B87@academic.fpc.edu> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Get me off this crazy thing In a puff of cyber smoke I arrive and in a booming voice heard over the www and internet. I proclaim " I am the technomancer " ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:31:35 EST From: "Jim Mallon" To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unsubscribe Message-ID: <16F3E690C25@academic.fpc.edu> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Get me off this crazy thing. In a puff of cyber smoke I arrive and in a booming voice heard over the www and internet. I proclaim " I am the technomancer " ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:44:50 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971120194450.0069cfd8@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:30 PM 11/20/97 EST, Jim Mallon wrote: >Get me off this crazy thing > In a puff of cyber smoke I arrive and in > a booming voice heard over the www and internet. > I proclaim > " I am the technomancer " ^^^^^^^^^^^^ but apparently not enough of one to save the mails that explain how to unsubscribe from mailing lists, or check the website where the whole process is also carefully explained! to unsubscribe, send mail with the word "unsubscribe" in the subject and body to: Loopers-delight-request@annihilist.com do not include signature files, witty quotes, or any attempts at conversational banter. The mailing server has no sense of humor and little patience for that sort of thing and will ignore your request. Also, please carefully note the way that unsubscribe is spelled. You should take care to spell it the same way. kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:36:52 -0000 From: "John Stevens" To: "LOOPERS-DELIGHT" Subject: November Suite DGM Message-Id: <199711201732.RAA09785@beryl.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thr primary source for all things Fripp/KC is Discipline Global Mobile, who can be contacted at: PO Box 1533 Salisbury Wiltshire SP5 5ER UK Fax: (44) 1722 781 042 Email: DGM@disciplinegm.demon.co.uk They can supply Cds, videos, postcards, posters etc for artists in the Fripp/Crimson circle. Cds average £12 (excellent value) plus handling charge and I have found them to be very efficient ie usually 7 days or less from ordering to receiving goods. John Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:27:30 -0800 From: "Eric R. Fischer" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: CD sampler, new box, Echoplex fixed Message-ID: <3474726A.7E1F@artnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love the idea of a Loopers CD! Anything I can do to help - please let me know . I work in a studio in LA, and also have a friend who has a mastering facility in WA state. He does CD replicating too. I can get us a great deal. On another note...the studio I work in got an Alesis "Wedge" for free from them. I spent a few hours futsing with it and was very impressed. The interface is very easy to use and it sounded pretty good for the buck (@$500.00?). It also has a max delay time of 5.4 seconds (nonexpandable I'm sure) so naturally I thought of us! it has the usual compliments of verbs & chorus's. If you can only afford one or two boxes, acouple of these would be very powerful. One would be great for processing a loop machine. Lastly, I'm due to get my Echoplex back from Oberhiem this week. Pat Murphy was very helpful in finding out what the status of my repair was and following thru on it.. I feel a little guilty about my last slightly angry post, but I sometimes you gotta vent. I'm looking forward to trying the new software (especially the lower gate threshold!). Seems like Oberhiem is trying to win over the people who have gotten bad impressions. A good strategy. Thats all for now.... Eric R. Fischer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:58:13 -0800 From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Another Sucker Bites! :) Message-ID: <01bcf5ee$a2390a40$0d3bd4cc@CIS.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll volunteer to do conversion from tape/CD to .wav/.RA files if needed. I've just completed my integration project with my sound system and PC, and done my QA on it. Stephen Goodman * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios EarthLight Productions * Get the Loop Of The Week Free! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:11:09 +0100 From: Leonardo Cavallo To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Top ten list with quotes Message-ID: <19971120191105015.AAA242@Default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Disco Volante is some kind of strange collision of speed metal, ennio >morricone, and avant-noise rock. And patton's vocals are just great - so >adventurous and creative. It took a few listens to really grasp the album >and start to like it, a bit too much at first I think. But now I really >enjoy it. There's so much in there to discover. I've heard their rare live >appearances are great, but I've never managed to see one since they always >sell out around here. ah well.... > Last year I've seen Mr. Bungle live, here in Florence. Well, I already knew their records (one of my favourite bands too) but the live show was really shocking. They were all (exept patton) wearing strange masks and their live setup was enormous. Mick only had 5-6 mics, each one processed by a center stage rack bigger than a frigo-bar. Plus bass, guitar, keyboards and drums. The striking aspect of their show was not their noisy, wild industrial approach of some part of the performance. It was the incredible fidelity in playing their song from the records (Mr. Bungle and Disco Volante). And if you know their albums you know that's impossible to play EXACTLY the same recorded versions. Well, they did it. Same sounds, same breaks, same tempo changes, same samplings and noises. Check them out if you can. ciao leo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:56:45 -0500 (EST) From: JSPEEr To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: bye for now... Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, Due to work circumstances, I must temporarilly unsubscribe from Loopers Delight. Normally I wouldn't consider my departure of such import, but for those of you who are anticipating my organization of the Mid-Atlantic Loop Show, I assure you that I am still good to go on it! I have your names and addresses and will be contacting you soon, I hope. Jim Speer Philadelphia Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:56:44 -0500 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Message-ID: <199711201456_MC2-28EF-8383@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Kim said, >There was the cd project from long ago, = >but the guy organizing it disappeared. Disappeared? Have you tried to reach him recently? Matt, if you want to take care of this thing, you should try to contact that guy anyway - his name is Ray Peck and he had already collected a number of tapes for the CD, some money, and maybe he had even done some work on this. Maybe you can continue where he stopped= =2E = ___________ Michael Peters = http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:44:48 -0600 From: Tom Spaulding To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: kpaul@gibson.com, pmurphy@gibson.com Subject: A Brief Word From Obi-ville Message-Id: <97Nov20.164516cst.26884@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Loopites- Please check the Oberheim page (www.oberheim.com)in the next few weeks. We should have a place you can buy Oberheim swag: T-shirts, jackets, stuff like that. I had some Oberheim logo items printed for this first batch, but I wonder what kind of interest would there be in an Echoplex logo (both old and new) on T-shirts, jackets, mouse pads, whatever? Any input from the faithful is appreciated. Also, back in my Gibson Guitar days, we did a "Show us Your Gibson" campaign where we solicited photos of Gibson owners playing/posing with their guitars. First prize was a trip or something like that. Maybe we could do something similar with members of this list that own the Echoplex Digital Pro, albeit on a smaller scale (like maybe cab fare!). Any ideas? In a shameless effort to court our past and future users, I remain, Tom "OB-1" Spaulding ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:55:45 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! Message-Id: <199711202146.NAA00919@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Michael Peters > Matt, if you want to take care of this thing, you should try to contact > that guy anyway - his name is Ray Peck and he had > already collected a number of tapes for the CD, some money, and maybe he > had even done some work on this. Maybe you can continue where he stopped. Thanks for the tip Michael. I just sent Ray some email to get a status update from him. Depending on what he says I'll know how to proceed. Now, both Stephen Goodman and Eric Fischer have volunteered their services to get this project going. Assuming there isn't a major uprising at this suggestion, I would like to coordinate this project and delegate tasks to those interested. With the end goal of completing this project in a reasonable amount of time. Kim? Are you out there? I really would like to hear your input on this and get your official stamp of approval before proceeding (since you are founder of this wonderful forum). Any objections from the masses? Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:02:23 -0800 (PST) From: Bret To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Occult loops Message-ID: <19971120230223.20178.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Paranormal Loopheads, Enjoyed reading Matthias accounts of looping at the healing center, and Dave's accounts of not realizing when the recording ended and live natural sounds began. Matthias asked about synchronizing brain waves with sound. I did some investigation and experiments of this nature a few years back. The general principle I am aware of is that the brain, when exposed to stimuli within the range of brainwave frequencies, can change it's (the brain's) frequency to match the stimulus. This has been called entrainment. I initially encountered this using light as the stimulus. Though I had experimented in the 70's with xenon strobes modified to flash within the beta range. The strobes I saw at the time had labels warning NOT to do this, so I had to see why. The chief problem I had at the time was that my strobe was not very regular in frequency, it would drop beats unpredictably. I did notice interesting visual patterns and colors when the light was flashing a few inches from my eyes, with my eyes closed. What I saw was sort of a geometric grid, like an infinite tunnel. The colors would be complementary, say red and green, or purple and yellow. In the 80's I built a personal strobe, using high intensity LEDS (towards my eyes) on a set of lab goggles. Using a 555 timer I could get a more regular frequency, and control the pulse wide of the flash. This was interesting, and yielded similar visual patterns with closed eyes. The brighter the light, the better the effect. I found some information about a man making audio tapes that invoked the entrainment mechanism (using headphones). Though I never heard the tapes, I read descriptions of his methods. As I recall, he put a tone in one ear, and different frequency tone in the other ear. This creates a beat frequency in your head. The beat exists only in your head, since the headphones would not allow the two different signals to exist in the same airspace. The difference in frequency was the brainwave frequency you wanted to achieve. For example, if you want to achieve 12 hz brain waves, you could have a 400 hz tone in one ear, and a 412 hz tone in the other. I am not sure what range of frequencies he used as the fundamentals. Generally what I read was that you needed to start the entrainment near your natural brainwave frequency at the time, in order for the brain to track with the stimulus. I never tried to duplicate this effect with sound, but probably have the tools to do this now. I did not find the light effects to offer any practical use. They were amusing for a while. Further off topic, I found that there is a device called the mind mirror that gives you a spectral display of the brainwaves at the 2 hemispheres. It is a real time analyzer of brainwaves. This has been applyed to experienced meditators, and they have mapped the frequency distribution curves that correlate to particular states of consciencness. By using the mind mirror as the feedback, they alledge anyone can be taught to achieve the states that yogis and others have taken years to attain by willfully changing your brainwaves to create the curve that corresponds to the state you desire. bret bret __________________________________________________________________ Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:02:40 -0800 (PST) From: Bret To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: I'm Volunteering!!!!!! Message-ID: <19971120220240.28548.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Loopers, On September 15, Ray Peck responded to my query of the status of the Loopers CD project. I had seen that his Email address was different (via his posting to DAT Heads Mailing list). His Email address is now: "Ray Peck" I think it would be great if Matt saw this to completion. I think it has been about a year now that Ray has had our tapes and money. Here is what Ray said on 15 Sep 97: ----------------------- Bret Moreland writes: >Ray, >How was your vacation? Hope your DAT machines are back in service. They are, yes. >Just checking on the status of this CD. Not trying to be a bother, but I >sure would like to get CDs and hear the music. I had hoped to give one to >my brother as a gift at Xmas time. What is the outlook? Well, the big bag O tapes and money is still in my office, gnawing on my conscience. As you might remember, I was going to do the project by reading the DATs on the SGI at work, which had the ability to read digital in. Well, work all went to hell, and I ended up quitting (the company was bought, and I didn't like the new owners). So, now I've been waiting for Event Electronics to finally release their new Layla digital in card. It was supposed to be out in July, so I thought this would be OK. Now, it being mid-september, I'm getting to the end of my rope. They finally released one of their other new cards a couple weeks ago, so it could be any day now, but it's hard to tell. I make this committment: the looper's CD will be the first thing I do with it, and it will get done within a week of getting the card. I hope that helps. . . ---------------------------- Matt, your the man! bret __________________________________________________________________ Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 17:20:39 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Occult loops Message-Id: <199711202316.PAA19482@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >The general principle I am aware of is that the brain, when exposed to >stimuli within the range of brainwave frequencies, can change it's >(the brain's) frequency to match the stimulus. This has been called >entrainment. > >I initially encountered this using light as the stimulus. Though I >had experimented in the 70's with xenon strobes modified to flash >within the beta range. The strobes I saw at the time had labels >warning NOT to do this, so I had to see why. The chief problem I had >at the time was that my strobe was not very regular in frequency, it >would drop beats unpredictably. I did notice interesting visual >patterns and colors when the light was flashing a few inches from my >eyes, with my eyes closed. What I saw was sort of a geometric grid, >like an infinite tunnel. The colors would be complementary, say red >and green, or purple and yellow. Oh geez, is this like that gadget in "Exorcist II"? Travis --------------------------------