------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 21 Today's Topics: Help me out with the Philly Loop Sho [ jspeer@haverford.edu ] Re: Sampler as Looper [ The Man Himself ] What loopers are left now? [ David_Mitchell@HP-Australia-notes1. ] Re: Help me out with the Philly Loop [ nyfac ] Re: Help me out with the Philly Loop [ The Man Himself Hi Loopers, I've undertaken to stage a show in Philadelphia of four Looper's Delight members. I have a coffeehouse venue lined up for a Saturday in March, and I'd rather not specify that date yet here until it becomes totally firm. Anyway, I'm very excited to be able to put this on, and from the demo tapes I've received I'm looking forward to a night of especially wonderful music. The participants at this time are: Charles Cohen (solo synth) Paul Poplawski (trio: Accidents Will Happen) Paul Mimlitsch (Chapman Stick, with possible percussion) Patrick Smith (trio: Fingerpaint) However, I could use some help. The venue owner has more or less asked me that this show please draw as well as possible. My first question for you guys is simply who would be interested in attending this night as a spectator? After all, you are the natural "target audience" for this show. I'd like to get an early gauge of interest here, if that is possible. Second, I could use some help with writing brief publicity materials for calendar listings and flyers. How is looped music best described to the unfamiliar layman, hopefully in as attractive language as possible? What more might I be able to do or write to rake up some interest from the populace? Looking forward to hearing from all! Jim Speer jspeer@haverford.edu ********************** My Town: Philadelphia! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:59:30 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sampler as Looper Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, A.S.P. wrote: > One question I have is: Are there any samplers that will work as real time > loopers? To me it seems to be a perfect approach - you've got stereo > analog to digital conversion, you've got expandable RAM, storage, multiple > outs, plus you can use standard MIDI events to trigger/sequence stuff. > > There were some updates to the later Ensoniq samplers that gave you new > effects - wouldn't it be possible to turn an ASR10 into a real time > looper? The main problem with using a standard sampler as a real-time looper is that most of the processes require a certain amount of crunch time -- in other words, there'll be a bit of a delay between the time that you ask a sampler to start playback, reverse the envelope, loop, etc. etc. and the time that the process actually gets carried out. Units like the JamMan and Echoplex are much more limited in terms of what they can do with regards to editing their loops, but what functions they *do* have are essentially instantaneous. Playback begins as soon as you stop recording, reversal occurs immediately, etc. etc. For real-time performance, I'd think that a studio-type sampler would be a wee bit sluggish. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:09:04 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: PERFORMANCE ANNOUNCEMENT: Andre LaFosse Graduation Recital Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello folks -- I'm doing the recital thing once again, staging my graduation concert here at Cal Arts. The concert will be on Thursday, February 27, at 8:00 pm. There'll be a somewhat smaller loop content than the last concert I did in October; the first half will be solo electric guitar -- *sans* loops, synths, or anything else -- straight into the amp. Assuming I survive the first half (not a foregone conclusion at this point!), the second portion will feature an ensemble project, which, in testament to my inability to go BEYOND FRIPP, not only rips off the instrumentation of his band but will be playing some of his tunes. (Sorry guys!) The band will consist of a "double duo" featuring myself, my mentor Miroslav Tadic on guitar, and Bryon Holley and David Shaffer on drumsets. The material will include some original composition, Frank Zappa's "Five-Five-FIVE," and three Fripp tunes: "THRAK," "Red," and "21st Century Schizoid Man." There will no doubt be much loopage from both myself and Miroslav to fill in some of the bass-less voids in the instrumentation. Anyone in the LA area (or anyone else who feels like making the trip) is more than welcome to attend. Please e-mail me if you need more information or directions to the school. Thanks for your time. Self-promotional mode now powering down, --Andre LaFosse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:39:44 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Vortex CC pedal Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:43 AM 1/30/97, Clark wrote: >I know this has been asked before but i dont remember the >answer. Which continuous controller pedals work well with >the vortex straight out of the box (that is, without having >to modifify the pedal)? > The Roland EV-5 works fine, as long as you set the rotary pot on the side to "0". ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: improv@peak.org self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/ "A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?" -Captain Beefheart ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:26:40 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Loopers-Delight Subject: Re: Sampler as Looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:42 AM 1/30/97, A.S.P. wrote: >One question I have is: Are there any samplers that will work as real time >loopers? To me it seems to be a perfect approach - you've got stereo >analog to digital conversion, you've got expandable RAM, storage, multiple >outs, plus you can use standard MIDI events to trigger/sequence stuff. > I've used a Korg DSM-1 extensively as a (sort of) live (sort of) looping device. The Korg is an ancient 12-bit sampler, with about a minute of total audio memory. I think my techniques will work with just about any sampler that responds to MIDI system exclusive commands, I haven't tried this with any other samplers though. Trust me, this isn't very pretty or easy, and if something like the JamMan had been available when I started, I would have never done this. I use it for live performances where I am sampling/looping/processing sounds made by other musicians. I've programmed a system exclusive control setup for the sampler, both from a computer using opcode's MAX, and from a Peavey PC1600 (I got tired of carrying the computer to gigs, and was able to get about 80% of it's functions from the Peavey). Before the gig, I set up a series of empty looped samples in the sampler, usually in lengths of 4, 2, 1 and 1/2 seconds, to fill the entire memory of the sampler. I also set up a collection of performance patches that apply different filters and modulation to the samples, and assign the samples to different midi channels (the korg will respond to up to 4 channels at once). At the gig, I get audio leads from the other the other musician(s) and hook it up to the Korg's audio in. During the performance, I'll have the other players improvise for a few minutes, while I put the sampler into re-sample mode, and grab their audio. using re-sample mode keeps all the preset looping points and key assignments. After a minute or 2, I've filled up the memory of the sampler and start playing the samples back from a keyboard or the PC1600. This can work really well, one performance with a percussionist playing congas came out especially well. The loop lengths are kind of arbitrary, so it doesn't really work for tight rhthyms, but for the kind of textural free improv I'm involved in, it offers some great possibilities. Since I got the JamMan and Vortex, I'm using the sampler much less for this, but it does have some advantages over a dedicated looper. Firstly, it's polyphonic: I can have 16 simultaneous voices of loops over 4 midi channels. Also, you can apply pitch modulation to the loops, and set up polyrhythms based on the key intervals (a fifth creates a 3/2 polyrhythm, for example). And, if I remember to stick a blank disc in the sampler, I can save the loops for future use (I usually forget, though). But it's not at all intuitive, it took several weeks of tinkering with hexadecimal code to get this system to work. The user interface on the DSM-1 is not at all geared to this kind of stuff, and having to remember all the technical stuff while you're playing is a pain. It can be done though. >There were some updates to the later Ensoniq samplers that gave you new >effects - wouldn't it be possible to turn an ASR10 into a real time >looper? > I've never used an ensoniq sampler very deeply, but the fact that you could re-write the operating system if you wanted always intrigued me. The fact that almost nobody did it implies that it's not a trivial task though. While I'm sort of on the subject, does anyone else on the list play in situation where they're looping the sound of other musicians live? It can make for some very interesting performances, and I feel it's a completely different esthetic from the usual plugging a guitar into a JamMan and looping your own noodlings, though I do plenty of that also. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: improv@peak.org self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/ "A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?" -Captain Beefheart ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:01:31 +0000 From: Fish To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sampler as Looper Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970130215934.006c13c0@mail.ndirect.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:59 30/01/97 -0800, The Man Himself wrote: >On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, A.S.P. wrote: > >> One question I have is: Are there any samplers that will work as real time >> loopers? To me it seems to be a perfect approach - you've got stereo >> analog to digital conversion, you've got expandable RAM, storage, multiple >> outs, plus you can use standard MIDI events to trigger/sequence stuff. A while a go I posted a lengthly description to the Akai users list of how to set up an S2000/3000 series sampler with the built-in FX board to do feedback loops. It basically involved taking an output and feeding it back into one of the analogue inputs which are patched into the internal FX processor. The FX processor can be a simple EQ and delay, but you can add ring mod, phasers, pitch shiter etc. to the chain internally. What's cool is the 4 band EQ. You can modulate the band frequencies with a slow LFO. With a nice fat source sound you get a crazy evolving effect as the BPFs sweep through the frequencies bringing out harmonics which get fed-back through the loop, to be processed again, by which time the BPF has moved on and a new set of harmonics appear, and so on... - Fish fish@ndirect.co.uk http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~fish ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 10:15:42 +1000 From: David_Mitchell@HP-Australia-notes1.om.hp.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: What loopers are left now? Message-Id: <"80770:1*"@MHS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Lotus" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G'day all, With the demise of the JamMan, does that leave the Echoplex and Boomerang alone in the looping market? It seems like there's a pretty big gap between these two in terms of cost and capability. BTW, I tried to pick up a JamMan from San Jose GC last week. No luck - they couldn't get their hands on any from other GCs either, even though I offered to pay freight and leave a deposit. I guess that's the end of the cheap JamMen. OTOH, I did buy two Korg Pandoras for $US169 each - it gives me the best distortion/overdriven sound on my Stick that I've heard, and the price is right. Why two of them? Well, here in Oz I've seen them sell secondhand for $A600 (=$US450)... Dave Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:37:39 -0500 From: nyfac To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Help me out with the Philly Loop Show! Message-ID: <32F28243.41C6@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philly is my old stomping ground, and I go back whenever possible. If the show is on a weekend, it is possible I could make it. Trev ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:34:38 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Help me out with the Philly Loop Show! Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 jspeer@haverford.edu wrote: > Second, I could use some help with writing brief publicity materials for > calendar listings and flyers. How is looped music best described to the > unfamiliar layman, hopefully in as attractive language as possible? What > more might I be able to do or write to rake up some interest from the > populace? Be sure to emphasize that it's a live electronic event. Terms like ambient, psychedelic, experimental, and interactive can, depending on the audience, be extremely enticing or horrifically repulsive. (Not having heard any of the performers on the bill, they may also be utterly inapplicable!) If you've got any sorts of interest-piquing quotes regarding either the performers or the methodology, that could be another good approach. My own experience with live looping is that it's very easy to get a good audience reaction, even if the music isn't all that happening, because it's such an unusual way of making music. If and when the form becomes more commonplace, then perhaps the general public will prove less easily seduced by this approach. But in a way we're lucky to be working in this particular era, since there's still a very high novelty value in what we do. The trick, of course, is to lure people in in the first place. Good luck -- I wish I could make the concert, but a 4,000 mile trek is kind of out of the picture right now. Best, --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:40:20 -0800 (PST) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <199701310340.TAA13214@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Olivier, I have to chime in with the others in saying, "What a fine post!" All I have to add is that despite what Fripp says, I'm into music because it's FUN, dammit, and when the time comes that music is no longer fun for me, then I'm getting off that bus. Cheers, Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:42:56 -0500 (EST) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Introduction to the loop groop Message-ID: <970131002328_103845006@emout13.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 1/30/97 8:21:41 PM, PKirtley wrote: <> Well, I'M with you about 90% so far...just throw in John Fahey, Joni Mitchell, Ravi Shankar, oh, maybe Djivan Gasparyan, and definitely Bela Bartok, and I think we're getting there... Have you heard KJarrett play the clavichord, btw (CD's called Book of Ways)?? dp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 02:20:26 -0500 From: Michael Peters <100041.247@compuserve.com> To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Sampler as Looper Message-ID: <199701310220_MC2-1078-4B5A@compuserve.com> Dave: > I use it for live performances where I am sampling/looping/processing > sounds made by other musicians. (...) During the performance, > I'll have the other players improvise for a few minutes, > while I put the sampler into re-sample mode, and grab their audio. reminds me of the old days of Roxy Music when Brian Eno was still in the band. He didn't just wear his feather boa and produce funny sounds on his VCS-3 but also used to secretly record parts of the band performance, then process and playback some of it later during the concert, always making for some sort of surprise. Too bad I never got to see them live. Michael Peters private: 100041.247@compuserve.com work: mp@harold-scholz.de http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters (Never pistle while you whee) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:05:37 +0100 (MET) From: Olivier Malhomme To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: 43.6 sec, six time in stereo? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greg added "Each voice has it's own pan parameter with 101 increments from 50L being hard left through center until you get to 50R being hard right. There is also a Master pan which controls the panning of all of the voices simultaneously. Any of these parameters can be controlled in glorious real time via a number of different controllers(any MIDI continuous controller or any of the PCM80s internal modulators)" AAAAARRGGGH (heart attack) Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:07:21 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: <26756.199701311207@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greg said: >>If you people want to see all of the manufacturers run and create loopers I >>will tell you what it will take: Not the esoteric kinds of things that we >>all love to create and listen to because we know what is good, but something >>that the great unwashed masses can enjoy as well. I'm not sure that's encessarily fair. Just because a market is small, doesn't mean it has to die. Out of interest, how many JamMen were sold compared to hour high-end reverbs? The market for those must be tiny (What do you think, dear - change the car or buy a Lex 300?). What we need is a new Brian May! No, not Nuno Battencourt. Mickey, in reply to Greg: >I posit that, despite fantastic technological advances, we live in an >era of mediocrity and sameness, perhaps even shallowness. I think >there is a great hunger for depth and quality, but I think the pace >of late 20th century life makes the search for meaning very costly, >perhaps even frivolous. Very often there is not enough time to >search beyond the obvious cookie-cutter solutions, so we grab for >the salient stimuli that are easily within our grasp. Life seems to >work if only we can keep up with the maddening pace of progress, if >only we can swim with the pack. Very often this can feel like a no win >game. In the face of enormous challenges and enormous potential, the >lowest common denominators often rise to the top. I think this has always been thus. A century ago, in Britain, the chief form of entertainment for "the masses" was the music hall - simple, throwaway songs with lewd lyrics and singalong choruses. Serious music existed of course - what we now term "classical" - but it was only listened to by a small minority. Today's music hall stars are Oasis and Bush, but nothing much has changed except for the visibility and earnings of those stars. I would expect that the lot of the "serious" professional musician has changed little in that time. >I know about this phenomenon, having a 12 year old son who pounds this >stuff out on his white stratocaster, exclusively. While respecting his >individuality and accepting his taste as his own, it is hard not to wish >more for him. With luck, as he grows he will shift into more demanding music - he is only 12, and much of the music we discuss here is quite "mature". I revealed my own deepseated prejudices when I was astounded to find in GP that our Andre is "only" 21. >Although we speak here about music and the almost magical technology that >becomes our artist's palette, I cannot help but to be drawn to the bigger >picture of the times in which we create. Is it historical "business as usual" >that substance gives way to fashion? The 60's did not feel that way to me, >but no doubt I am myopic and biased by my own experience. I feel that the >US, and perhaps much of the world, has become more conservative since those >times. I don't really follow what you're saying here, not having experienced the 60s for more than a month, and then only as an embryo. Could you elaborate? >I'd like to hear the thoughts of others. Do we just detach ourselves >from the mainstream, and just do what we do? Perhaps this is best. Or >do we have a *responsibility* to do more. I don't think we _can_ do more. Public taste will always be with the less demanding musics. And as one controvercial PR officer once put, "remember that 50% of the population have below average intelligence, by definition". >Some years ago, I studied with a very talented jazz guitarist and soulful >human being, Ted Dunbar, at Rutgers University. He used to say that "music >will save the world". And he was never speaking figuratively. Yeah - but who's going to save music? Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:16:40 -0500 (EST) From: WBrake@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Vortex CC pedal Message-ID: <970131071638_1726991220@emout02.mail.aol.com> I use an EV-5 as well. You may need to adjust the sweep range control for optimum results. Electronics questions can be addressed to: wbrake@aol.com. Will ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:25:20 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Magic: Finding that voice Message-Id: <27197.199701311225@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jon: >Thanks Olivier for your eloquent thoughts re: Finding the Magic. It's the >constant search that keeps most of us going. And it reminds me of the >>disturbing arguments I had in my recent past. Back in the dim dark daze of my >>Lexicon past, I remember having extended arguments with certain peoples there >>who insisted that the bulk of the "musicians" out there--i.e. potential >buying >market-- have abosultely no interest in finding a unique voice, and >creating >new and innovative musics. I think they're probably right. THE BULK. Not ALL. An ad for Fiat for their new sportscar in the UK recently went like this: In total, about a million people will see this ad. Of those, only about 300,000 will read it. Only 10,000 of those will be interested enough to see a dealer. Finally only 1,000 will drive one away. It's that 1000 we're talking to. (I'm paraphrasing here) > The certain peoples at Lexland insisted that, indeed, all > these "musicians" were seeking was "getting laid". They have no interest in > something new, they only want to copy what sold. Well, now you mention it.... :) This is fine for the teens who spend their saturdays banging out Nirvana at the guitar store on Saturdays. These people will never be able to afford Lexicon anyway - they'll get their Dod pedals, or maybe aspire to a ValveFX through their Peaveys. And as they say, the bulk of guitar owners are like this. Out of interest, were you discussing the Vortex at the time? BUT Lex' market is for people who know what they want and what they want to achieve with it. No-one spends $3000 on a reverb in order to get laid. It would be cheaper to pay to get laid. >So, thank you to all who've been sharing with us your secrets of creative >magic--I'm thoroughly gratified to encounter so many forward-thinking >>musicians. There may only be 100 of us on this list, but in the wild that's a big enough population to repopulate a species. Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:09:55 +0100 (MET) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jon's Post Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Huuummm... I have been thinking a lot on this post. I am prone to think that in fact it is basic modus operandi for everyone. Yes everyone. I know that walking a guitar shop a sunday afternoon can be a VERY disturbing experience. But I would rather say that all these people who seem to all play the same thing with the same sound are indeed looking for the same "magic phd". They choosed other way, or they were overwhelmed with what seemed power of such or such sound to them , but it doesn't change that when they play this sound that everyone use it is truly theirs the time they play. No one can take that from them. Certainly for a lot of complex reasons involving personnal history/state of mind and psychology, the direction taken can SEEM the same for all, but it CAN NOT BE. it is impossible. Whoever this sunday afternoon guitarist it is who walks this planet, there is no double of him/her. Besides, this search has nothing to see with the quality of the music "produced" which is a whole other topic. It is an effect I think of mass production that retailer and producers of manufatured... produces (hum!) think in term of law of the market, hence those nice discussion you were referring (at? to? I don't know). It is a disturbing effect of the way economical actors because this pityful narrow way of thinking is spreading all over the known universe. But it does not mean people act as mass consumers REALLY even if it SEEMS so. The worst of the guitarist f the planet, or the best copy ever produced of Vai or Morse or Holdsworth came to this result as a matter of personnal choices/directions/quest. It is a matter no one can discuss for yourselves. And no one can tell me what I should do as far as my direction of work is concerned (but I can seek advice, learn from people, and so on if I choose to). We could of course discuss the force at work to push a lot of people to sound the same, but I'm not sure that can but scratch the surface... You tell me, fellows... Olivier Malhomme --------------------------------