------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 215 Today's Topics: RE: Looping with a Band [ Kim Flint ] Re: Looping with a band.(LEO) [ "nicomonguzzi" ] Echoplex 5.0 upgrade [ dmgraph ] RE: Looping with a drummer [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ] Re: Echoplex 5.0 upgrade [ Kim Flint ] Re: Echoplex 5.0 upgrade [ Andre LaFosse ] top 40 looping (to death) [ malhomme ] Re: Andy Summers concert [ KingsleyD@aol.com ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:36:04 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Looping with a Band Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971125213604.007188a4@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What you are saying about the inflexibility of the drummer is certainly a problem. Playing with people who are able to listen to what the others are doing and respond appropriately is important. Keep in mind, though, that the person operating the loops has a responsibility to listen as well, and make sure that they are fitting in with the others! An example is what you were experimenting with, adjusting the tempo on your sequences to keep the in time. Similar to what djs will do with the speed controls on their turntables, to keep different records lined up and in tempo so the beat is steady for dancing. There are other techniques with loops, like retriggering them to get it lined up right with the groove, changing the loop length as necessary when the tempo speeds up or slows down, using sync features that are available. These are things you need to practice and learn how to use in live situations, in the same way you need to practice playing your other instruments in live situations with other people. Otherwise, it is you who is inflexible and unable to groove with the others! Playing with people who are able to maintain steady tempos is also key. (it's something I've had to struggle with, coming from a suburban no-sense-of-rhythm background...) I've mentioned before that I've worked with Neal Schon of Journey, helping him get his looping rig set up. He has 5 echoplexes, and is quite fanatical about the whole thing. Journey is a pop band of course, and most of his other projects fall into fairly mainstream areas. I think Neal is able to integrate loops into these situations because he and the people he plays with have breathtakingly accurate sense of tempo. Probably comes from years of playing stadium situations where you can't always hear the others, but have to rely on each other to be exactly accurate. Not to mention decades of studio work. But really, good tempo is an important skill for playing in dance and pop oriented bands. You have to work on it with looping same as with everything else. When Neal makes a loop, it is exactly the right length for the tempo. He taps the start and stop points at precisely the right time, and is able to do that because he practiced it a lot. He is also able to keep the length of the loop and the tempo going in his head, so he can overdub parts that are correctly in time. I've actually seen him record a 30+ second loop first, and then overdub the rhythm guitar part into it perfectly, with no obvious reference for the tempo. Next time you want to laugh in disdain at cheesy pop music, try doing that! Anyway, the key is that you need to practice using loops in tempo to get it right. Learn to use your instruments well, it won't happen on the first try with no experience! kim At 01:09 PM 11/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >I played in a Top 40 band from 1983 to 1991 and tried several times to introduce looping. > >My efforts were unsuccessful for the following reasons: > >1. The drummer was the timekeeper. He would not alter his tempo to a machine under any circumstances. For example, I programmed the 8-note sequence from "Dancing on the Ceiling" by Lionel Richie into an old Korg Poly 800. The drummer did the count off and I pressed the start button and kept my hand on the sequencer's tempo control. It was very rare for the drummer and sequencer to play in time together. > >2. The drummer refused to listen to a click track. > >In light of these problems, I decided to let the 8-note sequence play at a steady speed that I thought was right. It just floated around the drummer. As soon as the verse started I faded the sequence out. > >Another solution I arrived at was to sample the last note or chord of a song into a digital delay with its feedback/regeneration control set to 100 percent. When the other band members stopped playing, I cranked the delay time knob, causing the pitch of my last note or chord to slide up. This always caused several people on the dance floor to go, "Whoaaaaa," with their voices sliding upward like the sound from my digital delay. > >My best suggestion is to find a SYMPATHETIC drummer. > >Mark Kata >Mark@asisoftware.com > > > _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:37:06 +0100 From: "nicomonguzzi" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping with a band.(LEO) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ciao leo i play with a guitarist in a duo (i play drums and percussions with electronic effects eccetera), and we use the midi mute-restart function with the two jammans midi-connected as you say. (midi pedal >> jamman 1 >> jamman 2) it works very well. ciao nicos > >Hi all > >I'm in the process of creating a new band. Only Chapman Stick (myself), >vocals and drums. The peculiar aspect should be that either me and the >singer are going to use extensively our jammans. Not an ambient thing at >all. It should be a funk project with a danceable, original repertoire. I >imagine that with this kind of lineup everything you 're going to do is >quite experimental, playing pop songs too. > >I'd like to know if someone else has used this kind of setup (and some >suggestions): > >My jamman master , midied out to the other jamman and to a drum machine, >only used for clock reference through headphones (no drum machine sounds >out) for all the members. The clock I think it's vital cause me and the >singer are going to add some percussive elements (thanks to multiFX and >stomp boxes) in our loops to makes real durm grooves more interesting. > >And what about the midi mute-restart when 2 jam are connected? > >thanks >leo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:35:00 -0800 From: "Andrzej Urbanowicz" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Footswitch for Lexicon Vortex Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Content-Disposition: inline Hi, Short question. I've just bought a Lexicon Vortex. It does not have a footswitch. Is it easy to substitute it? What should I use? Thanks for any help. Andrzej. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:40:52 +0100 From: hovard@online.no To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Effect sends and swithcers Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971125234051.006a4f88@online.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hi dpc: What you are trying to do , if I understand you , is to have the three outputs of your guitar go through separate chains and control it via midi. The Rocktron Patchmate might be your thing. Since the loops are absoltely independent of each other , and relay-based , the options are many. You can run one output(guitar) into loop one , and loop 1 output to the amp. this you can do with up to nine separate voices. I`m not very fond of Rocktron-gear , but the patchmate is works great with my funky old pedals. Rocktron have an online version of their manual at theit homepage , and you could gather more info there. Good Luck , Thomas w ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:29:55 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Lawrence Schwartz To: "'Loopers Delight'" Subject: RE: Looping with a drummer Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've had interesting results using my Jamster with a drummer. If I try to set a loop to his beat, it seldom works. Neither of us has perfect time, though we don't suck. If I get a grooving loop going, it's no problem for him to get in the pocket with it and stay there. I should say that the music we play is completely improvised, so playing contrary, unrelated rhythms is ok, but it'd be nice to synch perfectly when we wanted to. I know, practice, but why work when machines can do it for you? He plays electronic drums, so I was thinking we could use a MIDI click out from his stuff to drive the Jamster, or set aside one pad on his kit to trigger it, or just put the control pedal ovr in his setup. I'd like to maintain as much flexability as possible (no click track/drummachine MIDI headset rig) and keep hardware costs to a minimum. Suggestions? Probably just practice more, eh? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:54:09 -0500 (EST) From: Jeff Lawrence Schwartz To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Pete Cosey/Whammy pedal Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, that Guitar Player article is the bomb. There was a follow-up to Electric Mud, also on the Cadet Concept label, entitled After the Rain. Cosey's on it. No reissue so far. Hey, I just got a Whammy II. Anyone else got one? It's pretty straightfoward, but a manual is always cool. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:50:52 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sottilaro To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: Leonardo, seductive is the Dark side, do not be swayed! Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey, I'm going to take a stab at this one. Sorry Greg, but you are neglecting the mysterious side of reality. Yes that's right, I can get two JamMans to pass midi from one to the other. Yes I know it's impossible, but if you let go your concious self, and feel the Force flowing in and through you, it works. Here's how I go about it: First train with Jedi master. (optional) Then, hook the output of a sequencer or Drum machine to the MIDI in of a JamMan (optional) use a MIDI merge to take the MIDI out of an ART X-15 MIDI foot controller and merge it with the sequencer output. This allows both clock and program change info to get into the JamMan. You could run the MIDI clock through the effects, but that gets messy for me. Nobody likes a mess! Now, take the MIDI out of JamMan #1 and run it to JamMan #2. Feel the Force flowing...Start the sequencer, use either the foot controller of JamMan #1 or a MIDI controller and send a start loop (MIDI message #1) the loop will close itself according to the length of your sequence. Now, start a loop with JamMan #2 in the same way. They are independent, but both synched to eachother. Yes, I actually do this all the time. Remember, there is no try. There is only do, or not do. Now, when I send a MIDI message from my foot controller, because it's merged with the MIDI clock from the sequencer, it hits my JamMan as well as JamMan #2. I know this works, as it's currently a problem for me because JamMan #2 is being manned by a different person in my band and he doesn't always want a MIDI fade message when I send one to my JamMan. (he can't be first in line, as my MIDI merge requires a hot +5v center pin, and the JamMan doesn't supply this. My Ensonic TS-10's MIDI out does.) A MIDI message of program change #11, sent from my ART X-15 Ultrafoot (could my success have something to do with the "Ultra" quality of the X-15? Could be...) always sends my band mates JamMan into a fade, along with mine. Mute and restart work as well, but I don't use them as much so it's not a problem. Yes Greg, it's true. I've even captured this phenomana on audio and video tape. It really works, if you have faith... Don't get sore, though. You KNOW what that could lead to... On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Hogan, Greg (Exchange) wrote: > Leonardo asked: > "And what about the midi mute-restart when 2 jam are connected?" > > JAMMAN will not echo it's MIDI input to the MIDI output. The addition > of a MIDI THRU box will allow you to control both of your JAMMANs. > > Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything > that I can do for you. > > Best regards, > > Greg Hogan > Lexicon Customer Service > Phone +781-280-0372 > FAX +781-280-0499 > email: ghogan@lexicon.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:19:15 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: looping and Punk@!%!! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Dave Trenkel asked: > "Didn't Mission of Burma, Roger Miller's early band, have a >member who just did processing and tape-looping?" > > Yes, Their soundman, Martin Swope, added tape loops which was >an integral part of their live sound and their latter recordings. > Right, and didn't Swope and Miller start Birdsongs of the Mesozoic? That was a cool band, especially their early stuff. I loved their chessy new-wave cover of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:09:41 -0600 From: "Randy Jones" To: Subject: Re: Looping with a drummer Message-ID: <01bcf94f$92629c80$06057fce@user.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Looking to keep the beat, ck out http://www.russiandragon.com/ I don't have one, cuz I never met a drummer outside of a box that I personally liked enough, but maybe you can train yours with this gizmo! Randy Jones -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Lawrence Schwartz To: 'Loopers Delight' Date: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 7:44 PM Subject: RE: Looping with a drummer >I've had interesting results using my Jamster with a drummer. >If I try to set a loop to his beat, it seldom works. Neither of us has >perfect time, though we don't suck. >If I get a grooving loop going, it's no problem for him to get in the >pocket with it and stay there. >I should say that the music we play is completely improvised, so playing >contrary, unrelated rhythms is ok, but it'd be nice to synch perfectly >when we wanted to. >I know, practice, but why work when machines can do it for you? >He plays electronic drums, so I was thinking we could use a MIDI click out > from his stuff to drive the Jamster, or set aside one pad on his kit to >trigger it, or just put the control pedal ovr in his setup. >I'd like to maintain as much flexability as possible (no click >track/drummachine MIDI headset rig) and keep hardware >costs to a minimum. >Suggestions? Probably just practice more, eh? > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:24:19 -0500 From: dmgraph To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Echoplex 5.0 upgrade Message-ID: <347BB282.59E9@bway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have precise details concerning the Echoplex 5.0 upgrade? Pat Murphy at Oberheim told me they are about to burn the ROMs and that they should be available in a couple of weeks for $45. At the moment I'm most concerned about enhanced sync-from-MIDI-clock capabilities. Kim? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:56:39 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Looping with a drummer Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I've had interesting results using my Jamster with a drummer. >If I try to set a loop to his beat, it seldom works. Neither of us has >perfect time, though we don't suck. >If I get a grooving loop going, it's no problem for him to get in the >pocket with it and stay there. >I should say that the music we play is completely improvised, so playing >contrary, unrelated rhythms is ok, but it'd be nice to synch perfectly >when we wanted to. >I know, practice, but why work when machines can do it for you? >He plays electronic drums, so I was thinking we could use a MIDI click out > from his stuff to drive the Jamster, or set aside one pad on his kit to >trigger it, or just put the control pedal ovr in his setup. >I'd like to maintain as much flexability as possible (no click >track/drummachine MIDI headset rig) and keep hardware >costs to a minimum. >Suggestions? Probably just practice more, eh? This probably isn't what you want to hear, but, yeah, practice is what it takes. I play bass, and do a fair amount of looping bass lines with a drummer. He's a really terrific drummer, BTW, with excellent time, unlike myself. When I first got the JamMan 3 years ago, it felt impossible to loop rhythmic lines in time, but we've worked at it, and now it works most of the time. Not always, but often enough. One thing that helps is to have a good monitor for the drummer, the better he can hear the loop, the better he can phrase to it. One band I've seen, Living Daylights, a sax/bass/drums trio from Seattle, uses extensive looped bass lines, and the drummer has a headphone mix of just the loops. I think a lot of drummers are used to being the only time keepers in the band, and get used to having everyone's time defer to theirs. It may be difficult for them to give up that role. But if your drummer is willing to work at it, it can happen. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel : improv@peak.org : www.peak.org/~improv/ "...there will come a day when you won't have to use gasoline. You'd simply take a cassette and put it in your car, let it run. You'd have to have the proper type of music. Like you take two sticks, put 'em together, make fire. You take some notes and rub 'em together - dum, dum, dum, dum - fire, cosmic fire." -Sun Ra ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:57:50 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplex 5.0 upgrade Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:24 AM -0500 11/26/97, dmgraph wrote: >Does anyone have precise details concerning the Echoplex 5.0 upgrade? >Pat Murphy at Oberheim told me they are about to burn the ROMs and that >they should be available in a couple of weeks for $45. At the moment >I'm most concerned about enhanced sync-from-MIDI-clock capabilities. >Kim? Midi sync: "It worked before, now it works way better" Lot's of details about the upgrade are posted on the Looper's Delight site in the echoplex section. Did you check that yet? kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:13:25 -0800 From: Andre LaFosse To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplex 5.0 upgrade Message-ID: <347BBE04.268E@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dmgraph wrote: > > Does anyone have precise details concerning the Echoplex 5.0 upgrade? > Pat Murphy at Oberheim told me they are about to burn the ROMs and that > they should be available in a couple of weeks for $45. At the moment > I'm most concerned about enhanced sync-from-MIDI-clock capabilities. > Kim? I've been using 5.0 for about a month now, and have actually been utilizing the sync-to-MIDI mode pretty extensively. It's a smoother ride; you don't have to reset all of the parameters if you want to erase a loop and create a new one -- just leave the clock running and record a new one as you please. As with just about every other aspect of the Echoplex, the upgrade makes the MIDI parameters a little more seamlessly integrated. One somewhat strange thing I've noticed has to do with reversing a loop while still slaved to MIDI clock. On most occasions, I've found that after engaging the reverse command (via the UNDO parameter bank), the "000" reading will show in the display for several repetitions of the loop, after which the reverse will finally take effect. It's entirely probable that this is due to some parameter setting which I'm presently ignorant of; if anyone could shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:59:58 +0000 From: Os To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplex 5.0 upgrade Message-ID: <347BE50E.9DDBDCE9@scee.sony.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just checked in at the Loopers Delight website, 'Tools of the Trade' section. I had no idea the Echoplex was a 'current' product - I assumed it was old and dead like the JamMan. I've never seen or heard of an Echoplex in England - anyone know where I should look? cheers, -- Os os@millennium.co.uk http://webworlds.net/os/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:44:20 +0000 From: malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: top 40 looping (to death) Message-ID: <347BFD82.27E3@infobiogen.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this one is an easy one: "How does one loop in the context of a TOP 40 band??" The Top 40 being itself a loop of the same 4 beats over 4,30 minutes, done 40 times.... Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:04:46 -0500 (EST) From: KingsleyD@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Andy Summers concert Message-ID: <971126070446_1306218426@mrin43.mail.aol.com> APOLOGIES IN ADVANCE FOR THE LENGTHY POST (particularly in light of the lack of direct looping content) > I was glad to see that David H..? was not involved in the production of >"The Last Dance of Mr. X." His cheesy keyboard sounds really bugged me!! That would be David Hentschel, otherwise known as Genesis producer (c. 1976 - 78) and Elton John collaborator (c. 1972 - 75) and such like... >Ever since buying Charming Snakes (I think it was - does that have him >playing a Klien in a rather -ahem - unusual manner on the back?) I've beent >trying to figure out who it sounds like he's been listening to, and it's >struck me now - he sounds more like a cross between Andy Summers and Larry >Carlton (with maybe a dash of Holdsworth or Vai)... a pity, since he seems >to be diluting his style as his technique has improved. >Practising, kids - just say no. I saw Andy S in Somerville MA last Wed & will see him again this Sat in Cleveland (globe-trotter that I am...) although I'm not entirely sure why. Particularly when he veers into a more jazz direction (such as playing std's: "Straight No Chaser"; "Footprints"; "Lonely Woman") it's painful for me to hear - and I *am* a jazz fan. I couldn't help but think that any randomly selected first-year Berklee student (of which there were many in attendance), to say nothing of, say, Steve Khan, would have played and sounded more interesting & coherent on such tunes. And known 'em better - AS' grasp of "SNC" was shaky at best, and at a very relaxed tempo, mind you, nothing like what, say, Mike Stern would essay. Things improved greatly when AS chose tunes more in a rock/groove vein. He was more animated and played more interesting lines, and the energy level of the band jumped. As for Andy's jazz leanings being a result of practicing, I don't get the impression AS practices a whole lot. In fact, my impression is that he never practices, but just coasts on what he learned (many) years ago, which includes some jazz (resort hotel orchestra gig; Soft Machine). I couldn't see where his technique had improved even a little bit from the Police days. IMHO, the problem lies in AS' *focus*, or lack thereof. When he had Der Sting bossing him around ("*no*! You're *not* gonna get more than 8 bars for that solo, and no *jazz*, either!") he was forced to come up with creative and subtle outlets for his technical skills - which he does have, btw - e. g., sneaking that little Lenny Breau bit into "Can't Stand Losing You." Left to his own devices, as he is on account of his having sold a gajillion records with The Cops, his technical skills aren't impressive enough to hold my interest, and his composing/choice of material is a bit scattered and occasionally ill-considered. If Jeff Beck is a "great player in search of a context" (liner notes to JB box set), then I'd dub AS a "good player in search of a context." (Sorry, Andy, I *do* like you, and, hey, I'd be less than honest if I didn't admit to some of the same weaknesses) OK, enough of the music critic thing - now for the obligatory gear report: Andy's Klein electrics were nowhere in evidence - he played his red 335 thru a Boogie rack setup (TriAxis, 2:90, pair o' 212 cabs) and used minimal effectage, mainly some chorusing. No trademark flanger/delay, no loops. His tone was dark to the point of muddiness, really annoying to my ears. And I'm not saying that 'cos I'm a Klein person - I have a particular fondness for 335's as well. Funny story (maybe): at NAMM last winter, I attended a show featuring AS, Allan Holdsworth, and Larry Coryell, with their respective trios; I was there with Steve Klein and Lorenzo German (builder of Klein electrics). AS had his Klein onstage, but it sat on a stand the entire set. Needless to say, SK & LG were less than thrilled. AS was quite apologetic afterwards but said the 335 fit what he was doing now a little better. Having just met him, I resisted the impulse to tell him it didn't *sound* that way, but I may not be able to hold my tongue when I see him Saturday. --Kingsley --------------------------------