------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 22 Today's Topics: Re: music just for musicians? [ Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.C ] RE: Help me out with the Philly Loop [ "Mascarini, Rick (Corp)" ] Re: Starting again [ Paolo Valladolid ] Re: Starting again [ angel@matisse.pet.upenn.edu (Emmanu ] Re: music just for musicians? [ nyfac ] Re: populate a species. [ nyfac ] Re: populate a species. [ vajra1@mho.net (Robert Phelps) ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: 31 Jan 97 08:12:49 EST From: Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-ID: <970131131248_74074.1316_GHQ48-1@CompuServe.COM> Dr. Michael writes: >I'm not sure that's encessarily fair. Just because a market is small, >doesn't mean it has to die. Out of interest, how many JamMen were sold >compared to hour high-end reverbs? The market for those must be tiny (What >do you think, dear - change the car or buy a Lex 300?). OK, but try to remember that the Lex 300 also generates quite a bit more profit than does a JamMan--especially when they have to be blown out to sell at all. You have to sell a whole lot more Jampersons to make up what what you make on a single 300. Not to mention how much more advertising you have to do. Let's face it, you're market for the 300 is well defined: big studios who charge big dollars for their time. OK, we know who they are, they know who we are. Easy. Jamperson possible target audience? Uh, everyone who plays any instrument. How do you reach them? How do you reach the sax players to tell them that Michael Brecker uses a JamMan? How do you reach all the guitarists/bassists/percussionists/vocalists/violinists/DJs/ blahblahblah. The point is it costs an incredible sum of money to properly market a product like the Jamman--just to get to the limited number of peoples in each of these disparate groups. It really isn't a profitable idea, unless the product costs a whole lot more. But, as we found out, the product didn't sell until the price was dropped to the zero profit point. So does this mean that the market has to vanish? I don't think so, but I think that there has to be some very realistic thinking involved. The looping device cannot be the bread-and-butter piece of a companies product line. But it can be a valuable addition, so long as the company doesn't get uptight about slow sales on one product. (of course, if there is such a company out there, I don't belive that they are in the MI biz...) I still maintain that the easy answer is a looping card for the PCM 80. All the tools are in place, and it would be a really great product, albeit an expensive one. But no one wanted to hear it, so... Later, Jon Durant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:32:06 -0500 From: "Mascarini, Rick (Corp)" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Help me out with the Philly Loop Show! Message-ID: Jim, I'm originally from So.Jersery (Cherry Hill area) and travel from time to time back for visits/business. I would be willing to see such a "looper's" show since that's what I'm currently doing in music. Please send any details,etc. regards, Rick Mascarini GE GSO/Information Delivery Services Voice & Fax: 8*235.5187, 518.385.2394 >---------- >From: jspeer@haverford.edu[SMTP:jspeer@haverford.edu] >Sent: Thursday, January 30, 1997 3:03 PM >To: Mascarini, Rick (Corp) >Subject: Help me out with the Philly Loop Show! > >Hi Loopers, > >I've undertaken to stage a show in Philadelphia of four Looper's Delight >members. I have a coffeehouse venue lined up for a Saturday in March, and >I'd rather not specify that date yet here until it becomes totally firm. >Anyway, I'm very excited to be able to put this on, and from the demo tapes >I've received I'm looking forward to a night of especially wonderful music. > The participants at this time are: > >Charles Cohen (solo synth) >Paul Poplawski (trio: Accidents Will Happen) >Paul Mimlitsch (Chapman Stick, with possible percussion) >Patrick Smith (trio: Fingerpaint) > >However, I could use some help. The venue owner has more or less asked me >that this show please draw as well as possible. My first question for you >guys is simply who would be interested in attending this night as a >spectator? After all, you are the natural "target audience" for this show. > I'd like to get an early gauge of interest here, if that is possible. > >Second, I could use some help with writing brief publicity materials for >calendar listings and flyers. How is looped music best described to the >unfamiliar layman, hopefully in as attractive language as possible? What >more might I be able to do or write to rake up some interest from the >populace? > >Looking forward to hearing from all! >Jim Speer >jspeer@haverford.edu > >********************** >My Town: Philadelphia! > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:01:52 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: <1154.199701311501@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>I'm not sure that's encessarily fair. Just because a market is small, >>doesn't mean it has to die. Out of interest, how many JamMen were sold >>compared to hour high-end reverbs? The market for those must be tiny (What >>do you think, dear - change the car or buy a Lex 300?). > >OK, but try to remember that the Lex 300 also generates quite a bit more profit >than does a JamMan--especially when they have to be blown out to sell at all. >You have to sell a whole lot more Jampersons to make up what what you make on a >single 300. True. > Not to mention how much more advertising you have to do. Let's face >it, you're market for the 300 is well defined: big studios who charge big >dollars for their time. OK, we know who they are, they know who we are. Easy. Sure. However, I think (I really honestly hope I'm not stepping of your toes, or Greg's, on this one) that Lex gave the impression of really not knowing how to approach the low end of the market. The "32 secundos" ad with zany graphics seemed so full of hype that it looked as if there was something to hide. Though I know their name distains thee, Digitech have been selling low-end proto-loopers for not much more than the JM clearout price and making enough profit to keep them in the line for years. And Digitech know how to sell a $500 box as though it's top-of-the-line, as do Alesis (who have a reputation for quality sound, at least amongst us great unwashed types). FE, perhaps if the Vortex and Reflex had been bundled together it would have competed (at the same price point) with the Midiverb (which costs the same as either). The Lex unit would have been better, but on paper the specs would be about the same. OK, the Lex would probably have much higher SNR and bandwidth, but if it's going into a pair of Celestion Vintage 30s who cares? (rant mode off) >Jamperson possible target audience? Uh, everyone who plays any instrument. How >do you reach them? How do you reach the sax players to tell them that Michael >Brecker uses a JamMan? How do you reach all the >guitarists/bassists/percussionists/vocalists/violinists/DJs/ blahblahblah. There was NO advertising in the UK for ths "baby" Lexes. It got a tiny mention as a competition giveaway in The Guitar Magazine (not that I'm complaining - I won it :) ) and that was it - certainly no ads. I only ever heard about them - esp. the Vortex - from GP imports (which don't sell well over here, on account of not raving enough about Oasis/Paul Weller/Blur etc). The entry for the Vortex was wrong in the GP buyers guide (for 2 YEARS running), which can't have helped. > The >point is it costs an incredible sum of money to properly market a product like >the Jamman--just to get to the limited number of peoples in each of these >disparate groups. It really isn't a profitable idea, unless the product costs a >whole lot more. But, as we found out, the product didn't sell until the price >was dropped to the zero profit point. If the PDS8000 could do it.... (sorry) I think that a looper will come. I think it will be part of a processor, will retail for $700 and be made by Zoom. After all, there's a genuine 4-sec looper in the 8080.... >I still maintain that the easy answer is a looping card for the PCM 80. All the >tools are in place, and it would be a really great product, albeit an expensive >one. But no one wanted to hear it, so... I never thought I'd _ever_ actually say this, but it would be cheaper to buy a TC2290..... Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 11:54:41 EST From: angel@matisse.pet.upenn.edu (Emmanuel Angel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians Message-Id: <9701311654.AA04624@matisse.pet.upenn.edu.noname> I wrote: Although we speak here about music and the almost magical technology that becomes our artist's palette, I cannot help but to be drawn to the bigger picture of the times in which we create. Is it historical "business as usual" that substance gives way to fashion? The 60's did not feel that way to me, but no doubt I am myopic and biased by my own experience. I feel that the US, and perhaps much of the world, has become more conservative since those times. Michael responded: >I don't really follow what you're saying here, not having experienced the >60s for more than a month, and then only as an embryo. Could you >elaborate? >From *my* vantage point, the 60's were a time when popular music was infused with real depth. This notion has become a cliche to some extent, so I'm conscious of not gushing too hard over the music that I was exposed to then, during my own adolescence: during my own period of heightened discovery. But I can argue, from a musical perspective, that the times were richer. Hendrix and Clapton made statements that are still very much alive today: exemplars almost, of what kinds of expression can be gotten out of the electric guitar. Go into most music stores today, and you will meet 12 year olds who love the music and style of Hendrix. During the 60's, it *seemed* that even the average Joe's and Jane's were moved by music that had more to say. My own roots (and hence my biases) lie in the music that has that blues movement to it. It's a very hard thing to define in words without sounding pedantic and self-referential. Either you get it or you don't. Take an album like Electric Ladyland. 1960's technology. But the guitar playing and the engineering is sublime, eerie almost in how much is conveyed. My guess is that this will be listened to in 2100 and beyond. The music is just so present, human, and alive, on so many levels. I think the business of music was very different, too. I just spoke recently with a drummer that I've known since 1972, when we worked together. Over the years, he's had major gigs with several well known rock acts (Meatloaf, Edgar Winter, John Cale, Flo and Eddie of the Turtles). He sites the corporatization of rock as a major factor in the change of things. When rock became big business, the scum quickly floated to the top. Now there are less opportunities for high quality players to find work. There was less structure and more freedom to experiment in the 60's. There was a greater liberalism and idealism, infused with the sense that big changes in society could be made (along with angst surrounding Vietnam War and burgeoning drug use among middle class kids, not to mention the real sense that society might be put to rest via nuclear holocaust). There was this greater sense of risk-taking and a relative breakdown or blurring of class boundaries. Much of the music expressed renewed innocence and hope, even in the face of armageddon. Blues sensibility was the perfect medium for this message, expressing a sort of strength and beauty despite obvious pain and suffering. The absorption of rock instrumentation and affect into big business largely defangs its movement toward change and rebellion. There has always been bad music of every form. But what was once a medium recognized for it's expressive power has become largely the backdrop for superbowl beer commercials. Recently, I saw guitarist Scott Henderson at a small club in New Jersey. The music was incendiary. Scott played the hell out of everything from Coltrane's "Giant Steps" to Hendrix's "Fire". What an awesome command of blues, modern jazz, funk, bebop. The place was half empty. When I was 15, I saw Hendrix play to a sold out Madison Square Garden, making a lot of the same noises. But now it's a whole other game. Mickey ____________________________________________________________________________ Emmanuel Angel Nuclear Medicine Physics and Instrumentation Group University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA 19104 angel@matisse.pet.upenn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 11:08:29 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <199701311706.JAA24354@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >All I have to add is that despite what Fripp says, I'm into music >because it's FUN, dammit, and when the time comes that music is no longer >fun for me, then I'm getting off that bus. You have to be careful with statements like that, because in all likelyhood, you will reach a time when music is no longer fun for you, and you may very well find that despite that, you don't want to get off the bus. Variations on "hope I die before I get old" always come back to bite you. The question is, how are you going to handle the absence of fun in making music? A marriage isn't always fun, and if you expect it to be so, you'll be sorely disappointed. Travis Hartnett "When you're tired, you've had enough, and can't do anything, don't do anything. And while you're not doing anything, practice." --Guitar Craft aphorism ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:41:00 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: <9701311652.AA23387@beryllium.lexicon.com> In response to my saying: ">>If you people want to see all of the manufacturers run and create loopers I >>will tell you what it will take: Not the esoteric kinds of things that we >>all love to create and listen to because we know what is good, but >>something that the great unwashed masses can enjoy as well. " Michael said: "I'm not sure that's necessarily fair. Just because a market is small, doesn't mean it has to die. Out of interest, how many JamMen were sold compared to hour high-end reverbs? The market for those must be tiny (What do you think, dear - change the car or buy a Lex 300?)." We have sold around 8000 JAMMEN as opposed to maybe 5000 each of the M300 and M480L. Low end products require a lower margin(earned dollars) then higher end products thus a higher volume is required for a product to be deemed successful. This may not be fair but it is reality. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email: ghogan@lexicon.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:00:23 -0800 (PST) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <199701311800.KAA19040@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >All I have to add is that despite what Fripp says, I'm into music > >because it's FUN, dammit, and when the time comes that music is no longer > >fun for me, then I'm getting off that bus. > > You have to be careful with statements like that, because in all > likelyhood, you will reach a time when music is no longer fun for you, > and you may very well find that despite that, you don't want to get off > the bus. Variations on "hope I die before I get old" always come back to Sorry, but I sense a contradiction in the above paragraph. Since I am not required to make music for a living, I am at a loss to think of a reason for making music when it is not an enjoyable experience. > bite you. The question is, how are you going to handle the absence of > fun in making music? A marriage isn't always fun, and if you expect it Well, I have a day job. My livelihood does not depend on making music. There is no other driving force for me to make music other than the passion for doing so. Maybe this is not true for everyone, but then again, note that what I have said applies specifically to me; I never presumed my statements would be true for everybody. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 12:38:19 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <199701311836.KAA16348@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Well, I have a day job. My livelihood does not depend on making music. >There is no other driving force for me to make music other than >the passion for doing so. Sadly, there is such a thing as joyless passion. And should you find yourself in a position where you're still impelled to make music, even though you're not enjoying it, it's good to have a contingency plan. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:51:28 -0800 (PST) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <199701311851.KAA19727@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Well, I have a day job. My livelihood does not depend on making music. > >There is no other driving force for me to make music other than > >the passion for doing so. > > Sadly, there is such a thing as joyless passion. And should you find Give me an example. I think it is becoming apparent that you and I don't quite relate to music in the same way; at least when it comes to having an emotional relationship in music. This is probably why I am having trouble understanding your point of view here. > yourself in a position where you're still impelled to make music, even > though you're not enjoying it, it's good to have a contingency plan. > > Travis Hartnett Hmmm... I think I might be beginning to understand what you mean. "Labor of love", right? Sure when I practice playing an instrument sometimes I get frustrated, but overall being occasionally frustrated doesn't mean I'm not having fun. When you say "contingency plan", what do you mean here? Find another activity that is enjoyable? Heck, I love watching American football... I hope you don't mind me asking these questions. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 14:06:34 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <199701312004.MAA20694@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> Sadly, there is such a thing as joyless passion. And should you find >Give me an example. An example is a actual marriage. Four or five years into a marriage, people can look around and say, "where did all the joy go?" For many people, this is a crisis which prompts them to reconsider their commitment to the marriage. For some, the absence of joy signals the dissolution of that marriage. Others are still committed to the union, even though the immediate "fun" is absent. With time, work and attention, this joy can be rekindled, perhaps with greater intensity. I know people who have been married twenty or thirty years, and they report that there were periods of two or three years where their partner really got on their nerves, or where they didn't speak to each other much more than necessary. Life is long, and the demands of such a commitment are frequently underestimated at the beginning of the journey. >When you say "contingency plan", what do you mean here? Find another >activity that is enjoyable? Heck, I love watching American football... > With music, we can see a similiar phenomenon. Many musicians report a plateau they reach in their development. Forward progress seems to halt, everything sounds bad or indifferent. Some people change instruments. Some stop playing for a while, or entirely. Some retire from public performance or group participation. Some buy new gear, try new techniques. Some people stop listening to outside music for a year. If one wishes to continue sailing during a year of overcast skies, one needs other means of navigation. The above strategies allow for one to continue "sailing without the North Star (of Joy)". >I hope you don't mind me asking these questions. No, I don't mind at all, but it may be time to take this off the list and go to private mailings. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:59:09 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Magic: Finding that voice Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Dr M. P. Hughes wrote: > No-one spends $3000 on a reverb in order to get laid. It > would be cheaper to pay to get laid. Yeah, but it would't sound as good! --A ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 15:28:57 EST From: angel@matisse.pet.upenn.edu (Emmanuel Angel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Magic: Finding that voice Message-Id: <9701312028.AA08576@matisse.pet.upenn.edu.noname> >> No-one spends $3000 on a reverb in order to get laid. It >> would be cheaper to pay to get laid. >Yeah, but it would't sound as good! And if the reverb tail is happening, it wouldn't last as long! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 16:47:00 -0500 From: nyfac To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Starting again Message-ID: <32F3B9D4.41C6@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T.W. Hartnett wrote: > > >Well, I have a day job. My livelihood does not depend on making music. > >There is no other driving force for me to make music other than > >the passion for doing so. Actually, I think having a day job afforts the ultimate in artistic freedom, if you care about these thing. I don't need other people to like my work- all I have to do is like it. No record contract worries, don't have the get multiple piercings, whatever. Plus it helps that my day job is pretty cool too. Trev ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 17:02:57 EST From: angel@matisse.pet.upenn.edu (Emmanuel Angel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <9701312202.AA10251@matisse.pet.upenn.edu.noname> >T.W. Hartnett wrote: >> >> >Well, I have a day job. My livelihood does not depend on making music. >> >There is no other driving force for me to make music other than >> >the passion for doing so. > > >Actually, I think having a day job afforts the ultimate in artistic >freedom, if you care about these thing. I don't need other people to >like my work- all I have to do is like it. No record contract worries, >don't have the get multiple piercings, whatever. > >Plus it helps that my day job is pretty cool too. > > >Trev > > The problem with all of this is *time*. And I wonder how long a job can stay "cool" if you're primarily interest is *making* music. I do work (software development) in a university research environment that many would find interesting and with lots of freedom. But over time, I find myself wanting to be doing music when I wake up in the morning. It's not easy to strike that balance, I find. Mickey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 18:11:43 -0500 From: nyfac To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-ID: <32F3CDAF.41C6@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Every civilization since the dawn of time has written that it was teetering on the edge of chaos> I have heard quite a few people here slagging Nirvana and various other grunge type bands as being bland and tasteless when compared to, say, Jimi Hendrix. I don't think that I have to argue with anybody here about the general lameness of commercial radio, so I won't bother. But what kind of gets my goat, if you will, is someone here who complained about his son's taste, and made the aforementioned comparison of Nirvana and Hendrix, saying specifically that the former could not match the elequence of the latter. First off, while Hendrix is, was, and always will be, one of the greatest guitar players ever. Period, end of story. But personally, I think that Cobain was an excellent guitar player. I don't care that he could know the inversions I know, that he didn't know a whole-tone/half-tone scale from his harmonic minor (hey, even I get confused sometimes), I still think, in all honesty, that he was a better player than I am. His chord progressions were great, his infrequent solos (when they worked) were hair raising. He just plain rocked. And that is what it is all about, isn't it? Secondly, while Hendrix rocked without mercy (a given) he was a bit, well, shall we say, lacking lyric-wise. I guess you can't have everything. So I would say this: relax, enjoy the music. There is a tone of great stuff out there and there is more everyday. If you don't think music is growing anymore, check out grungish bands like Slint, the inimitable Jawbox, Helmet, or any of the other bands that are constantly ripped off by the halfwits they play on the radio. Music is alive and well, I am pleased to say. PS: if your children were enamored of old Neil Young (who is also, if you must know, the man) I don't know if you would be quite so despondent. Any who would Cobain be if not the combination of Young and Dylan? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 18:18:53 -0500 From: nyfac To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: populate a species. Message-ID: <32F3CF5D.167E@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There may only be 100 of us on this list, but in the wild that's a big > enough population to repopulate a species. Too bad there don't seem to be any women on the list. We could have a personals section of the web page... SWML (single white male loopist) seeks SFL with whom to have a MIDI interface. Must have at least 16 megs of RAM and a Vortex. Let get our pedals out and express ourselves! Maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea... Trev ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:14:24 +0100 From: vajra1@mho.net (Robert Phelps) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: populate a species. Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Too bad there don't seem to be any women on the list. We could have a >personals section of the web page... > > >SWML (single white male loopist) seeks >SFL with whom to have a MIDI interface. >Must have at least 16 megs of RAM and >a Vortex. Let get our pedals out and >express ourselves! > > >Maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea... > > >Trev Goodness. I sense an impending onslaught of bad midi in-n-out jokes on the horizon. Take cover fellows, it's a hard rain a gonna fall. --------------------------------