------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 221 Today's Topics: The 2nd CD project. [ ANET@aol.com ] Re: The 2nd CD project. [ Kim Flint ] Re: Looping with drums / editing loo [ Ruffass@aol.com ] Re: Looper CD [ Henry Throop ] Re: The 2nd CD project. [ "Matt McCabe" ] Re: Looper CD [ "Matt McCabe" ] 2nd Loop CD [ Frank Gerace ] Re: The 2nd CD project. [ Kevin Miller ] Re: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. [ "Matt McCabe" ] double CD [ "Matt McCabe" ] Re: The 2nd CD project. [ Len Seligman ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:14:36 -0500 (EST) From: ANET@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: The 2nd CD project. Message-ID: <971201231436_45256534@mrin83.mail.aol.com> Well it certainly looks like the project is on its way. What is the project? 1) A 2nd attempt to cut a loopers-delight CD. This CD will be of submissions by those that visit this site and it will be of high quality. 2) Submission from subscibers to the project would cost $100 minimally. Who is chosen is decided via a public vote? via listening to samples on a web page? Would all particpants be willing to take the time to listen to all of the submissions and subjectively rate them? 3) A producer/project-manager would be appointed to "ride-heard". The producer would solict submissions, weed them out and or put them up for a vote. Contact and keep track of all the participants. Start time-lines on project dates and report back to the group. Mix down the final cuts for consistant sound quality on the CD, make contact with the submittors to refine any flaws etc. etc. Contact the CD press and submit the DATs for press. A cover would need to be designed as well. In short the producer will do just about all the work. 4) Songs should be sent in their complete form? As opposed to doing multitrack work on the internet. 5) The Looper's-Delight webpage receives a stipend for the project. 6) The contributors to the project split the CDs minus any skimming for the Web page or Producer's efforts. 7) The reception of the CD to the public is reported back. 8) If good, then Phase 2 kicks in which would be to start an Internet marketing approach and or to contact a record company. 9) Mass production of all subsequent 40 volumes of the Loopers-Delight CDs to the entire world. 10) We make so much money, we buy Micorsoft and force all computer dealers to use Loopers delight samples for any sounds heard on a PC. I see a Janurary starting date with all submissions to be complete by Feb. Then a March 1st submission to the press and a 2nd week of March delivery of the CD. Looks like there are about 9 solid respondants to this proposal so far. 1)Kim, of course (you do play with these things you build don't you) 2)Matt Mcabe who has volunteered as the Producer 3)Michael Peters in Colonge, Germany who has some very nice samples set up. 4)John Peters, Rochester, Minnesota Acoustic guitarist (27yrs) 5)Randy Jones down there in Tejas 30 yr. guitarist 6)Stefano in Italy. 7)Mike Biffle 8)Travis Harnett 9)Siobhan Canty Please forgive me if I misspelled anyone's name. Looks like a good mix. Any others out there. Are we on the right track? Is Matt the new producer? (My vote is yes). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:49:13 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971202044913.0099dd4c@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:14 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >1)Kim, of course (you do play with these things you build don't you) Actually, you can leave this spot for someone else. I'm afraid I've got far too many other things going on at the moment to manage recording a track for the cd. Some future volume..... also, I imagine the list of hopeful contributors is much larger than what you've got on there. give people some time to decide if they want to be in it, and see how many cd's it's turning out to be. Seems like those who are interested ought to be contacting Matt, who could give us some idea of the scope of things after a week or so. I would like to encourage the diversity aspect, too. If the initial cd's are going to be a reflection of Looping and the community of people at Looper's Delight, then they should try to reflect the diversity we have here as well. It would be nice if people listening could hear a track and say "wow, I had no idea that people interested in this type of music might be interested in using loops." kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:08:28 -0500 (EST) From: Ruffass@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping with drums / editing loops Message-ID: <971202000827_-871104688@mrin46.mail.aol.com> please unsubscribe me many thanks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:30:38 -0700 (MST) From: Henry Throop To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looper CD Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Doug Michael writes: > Count me in for the Looper's CD along with the $100.00 to get it done. > There is a very good article on doing a project like this (CD over the > internet) in the latest Keyboard magazine - Janurary 1998. The article > describes the internet compilation CD "Giant Tracks." It ended up being > completed in a very professional way, many people contributed their > talents and they did the web site thing with samples of each tune. There > is included a breakdown of costs and they actually sold enough CD's to > make a little profit. Anyways I'll check to see if this article is on the > Keyboard mag web site. > Doug Michael Another list I'm on (the didjeridu list) recently put out a similar compilation, which was hugely successful. Some relevant facts are: o The list is about the same size as this one. o The final CD is just about 74 minutes, with ~ 25 3-minute tracks. o Submissions were limited to one per person, and mostly fixed at 3 minutes. Everyone who sent in a tape ended up on the CD. Most of the people on the disc ended up bought multiple copies, so there was no additional 'submission fee.' o ~ 500 discs were pressed at first and sold for $15 each, to list-members and through a music store one member runs. I believe they're all sold out now. o The biggest unforseen problem ended up being what to do with the left-over $$. Nearly everyone had strong opinions and they all differed... the most popular options were a) send back profit to contributors; b) donate it to non-profits in Australia; b) bankroll it in making a 2nd CD. Beats me what ended up happening. o One list-member took nearly-entire control for collecting submissions, producing, mastering, printing, and distributing the disc. He had experience in doing such things before and -- as he works at a professional studio -- was able to use their facilities for free. 90% of the time invested was his, and it would have been done far less efficiently by committee. Other list-members a) designed the cover art, and b) did a once-over review of a cassette before the disc was pressed. The final CD ended up looking and sounding very professional. The only negatives really came from the compilation format: lots of short tracks. The liner notes couldn't include anything more than names and track titles, and ended up mostly on the web. Nevertheless, it's a fun, diverse, and highly interesting disc. I'd be happy to forward the the address of the compiler to anyone who's interested -- don't have it right now. I believe there's at least one other didj member on this list -- any additions? henry throop@colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:44:36 +0000 From: Malhomme Olivier To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: CD#2... and Great Expectations Message-ID: <3483E692.DC9@infobiogen.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like very much to contribute too. I wonder if this is going to be a double CD, because otherwise there will be too much material, I guess. I quite like this idea of RA samples avalaible to everyone to choose. We can not blind ourselves, most of the persons wanting to contribute won't probably make it to the CD, because of the limited size of the media. There will be choices to make at one point or another and then, blood and tears.... I wish we can find the most fair system, if fairness has anything to do with music. Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:41:07 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971202114107.486745b2@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim: >also, I imagine the list of hopeful contributors is much larger than what >you've got on there. I'm also aware that many of you guys are professional musicians - and a CD like this is going to be of far more use to you than me. If there's space I'm in, but I don't want to deprive people. This is just a hobby for me. >I would like to encourage the diversity aspect, too. If the initial cd's are >going to be a reflection of Looping and the community of people at Looper's >Delight, then they should try to reflect the diversity we have here as well. >It would be nice if people listening could hear a track and say "wow, I had >no idea that people interested in this type of music might be interested in >using loops." Whilst I would tentatively agree with this, I think the tracks on such a CD would need to be very carefully arranged, or it's going to sound like one of these promotional hardware CDs ("Here's what a looper can do for _you_!") I think that the most important thing is that the CD be _good_listening_, putting the coherent presentation of the music before ideology. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 06:24:41 -0500 From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <199712021124.AA14067@world.std.com> >also, I imagine the list of hopeful contributors is much >larger than what you've got on there. >I would like to encourage the diversity aspect, too. If the >initial cd's are going to be a reflection of Looping and the >community of people at Looper's Delight, then they should try >to reflect the diversity we have here as well. It seems to me there are two plausible approaches: - try to produce a "top-notch" quality "professional" CD, - try to fit in everyone who wants to contribute. I think the latter is much more interesting, personally. Not from the perspective of contributing, but from the perspective as a listener-who-subscribes-to-this-list. Now, the above two descriptions are not quite how people have characterized things far, but I think it's relatively accurate. Presumably some people who might want to share their music with the rest of loopers' might have trouble producing music of sufficient quality to fit in the first style. If the "problems" are technical, perhaps it could be forgiven (e.g. mono recordings), although if it's an issue of musicality, there's not much that can be done. (Unlike the "Giant Tracks" example from Keyboard, one can't go back and "edit" ones loops very usefully.) Regardless of which way it goes, I would strongly recommend and up-front investigation of the added cost of doing a double-CD. This would allow both longer tracks and more participants, in some mix; increasing the quantity of participants will keep the cost to each from rising while increasing the track time will, no doubt, make everyone involved happier. (But requiring more sales to recoup the investments.) Sean Barrett PS: To put this a different way: I'm much more interested in hearing what everyone is doing then I am in purchasing a slick "best of". My personal opinion of course. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:23:28 +0300 From: miguel.barella@poyry.com.br (MAT) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Kim Flint Subject: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. Message-ID: <0000644C.4007@poyry.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Please include me in the 2nd CD list, I am strongly interested in the project. Miguel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:24:35 +0000 From: brj@doc.ic.ac.uk (Benjamin Jefferys) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: CD#2... and Great Expectations Message-Id: This might sound a bit perverse, but how about voting for the tracks on the Web, then taking a *cross section* of those. That is, you take the track with the lowest and highest number of votes, and others scattered in between, maybe with a bias towards the more popular stuff. This would mean that you cater for more particular (less populist) tastes as well as others. It would also leave alot of good material for subsequent volumes (my worry was that you'd use all the good stuff on the first disc, making the others "worse"/less popular). Anyway, although I couldn't contribute to this CD (I have also never before contributed to this list ;)), I'll probably be buying one if it gets made, just to hear what can be done with all this equipment you're always talking about... Bye! Ben. -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:36:32 -0500 (EST) From: Drumworker@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Question Re: Roland RE 800 Message-ID: <971202093631_-1637848383@mrin86.mail.aol.com> Everyone, I've seen a Roland RE 800 Digital Delay for sale and I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about it? The store doesn't have the manual and the only way to really try the thing is to buy it. Any info about how good/useful this unit is would be appreciated - particularly if it is useful to looping/echo applications. Many Thanks, Paul O. "Drumworker@aol.com" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:21:08 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Artistic Merit Message-Id: <199712021615.IAA12372@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Patrick Smith > Second: Having recently read through all the posts concerning our > listening habits, I'm a bit concerned about any individual or group having > the final say on submissions. Are we representing "Looping" as an evolving > form which may have "music" that some or perhaps all of us on this list do > not like? We are a diverse group and should aim to celebrate this in a > collection of looping. If so, I think if a member has a submission of a > piece on an appropriate recording medium( I assume DAT) that is of the > necessary recording quality; and this member is willing to put up the ante > ($100), then they should be in. I understand your comments regarding a submission being rejected because someone doesn't like it. I would hope, and except, that members of the screening panel would be open-minded enough to "okay" a submission that didn't suit their musical tastes but is still good music. I know that personally, even though I might not particularly like a piece I music, I can still recognize it as being good. > Third: Having seen how long the first project has taken to come to > fruition, I would like to propose making the payments of the ante in > installments as progress is made on the project. Ray has not cashed my > check and in no way appears to have been in it for the money. But I think, > it may be prudent to proceed with caution. This would minimize hurt > feelings, etc...... My feeling is that no money should be exchanged until the master DAT is ready to be sent to the CD presser. > Many thanks to Matt for volunteering to undertake this mission. I think I must have been insane!! :-) Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:33:22 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <199712021628.IAA12756@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: ANET@aol.com (our cyber minute keeper!!!) > 2) Submission from subscibers to the project would cost $100 minimally. Who > is chosen is decided via a public vote? via listening to samples on a web > page? Would all particpants be willing to take the time to listen to all of > the submissions and subjectively rate them? I think the decision on how to screen submission should be made by everyone is to be involved with the project. > 4) Songs should be sent in their complete form? As opposed to doing > multitrack > work on the internet. All songs should be submitted on DAT. > 10) We make so much money, we buy Micorsoft and force all computer dealers to > use Loopers delight samples for any sounds heard on a PC. Exactly. > I see a Janurary starting date with all submissions to be complete by Feb. > Then a March 1st submission to the press and a 2nd week of March delivery of > the CD. Wow! Realistically I think this timeline is a little aggressive. Having been involved with a number of CD projects already...believe me...there is always some last minute "issue" that pushes back the timeline. > Any others out there. Are we on the right track? Is Matt the new producer? > (My vote is yes). Thanks for the vote. What I'll be doing in the next couple of days is compiling a list of everyone who has expressed interest in the project. Then I've code a quick web page detailing how I think the project should proceed (including submission criteria, deadlines, calls for volunteers, etc) and then everyone can hack it to shreds!! Sound good? I'll coordinate with Kim to get the page linked to Looper's Delight. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:37:48 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Looper CD Message-Id: <199712021632.IAA12947@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Henry Throop > o Submissions were limited to one per person, and mostly fixed at 3 minutes. > Everyone who sent in a tape ended up on the CD. Most of the people > on the disc ended up bought multiple copies, so there was no additional > 'submission fee.' > > o ~ 500 discs were pressed at first and sold for $15 each, to list-members > and through a music store one member runs. I believe they're all sold > out now. Who ended up paying for the CDs since no money was collected up front? Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:49:37 -0500 (EST) From: Frank Gerace To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: 2nd Loop CD Message-Id: <199712021649.LAA12306@user1.channel1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I, too, would be interested in submitting material for a 2nd LD CD. I also agree with the idea of musical listenability as an important aspect of the CD as opposed to making the CD a demo for the many differenernt things a looper can do. The greater the variety of musical experience, the better. To that end, I also like the idea of a two-disk CD. I don't like the idea of putting the music up for votes on the web, however. For a starter, the only computer I have and can use with any regularity is my PC at work. Its an old 386 machine with no sound and pathetic graphics. (There is no justification for the accounting department to have a sound card and since money is tight and the computer runs the necessary software, no justification for a new machine.) As for an idea of what I'd submit, I'm not sure. There are things that my band, Dreamchild, has done that might be appropriate, some things we have done for theatrical productions could be as well, not to mention the prospect of writing/recording something just for the CD. Anyway, count me in. Frank Gerace Dreamchild ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:50:19 -0800 From: Mike.Biffle@wj.com (Mike Biffle) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Mike.Biffle@wj.com, buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) Subject: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. Message-ID: <000554C5.1264@wj.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Excuse my mailer and it's lack of indents... I'll just add my two cents here at the top. Sean mentions track time below and, knowing how I and many other loopers operate, track time of less than 5 minutes is just not enough to build a dynamic, real-time loop. I would imagine that there are many who would prefer to have possibly ten minutes or more. What might be a target maximum track time? How many submissions we have now? A single CD might only cover submissions from 7-10 persons. We might have to create a multi CD project to accomodate the entire group! The $100 submission should still cover it. Like Sean, I would probably prefer to hear what everyone's up to rather than try to make this a marketable slick product. We could certainly boil these submissions down after the project for a commercial endeavor based on everyone's favorites. Cheers, Miko ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Author: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) at INTERNET Date: 12/2/97 6:24 AM >also, I imagine the list of hopeful contributors is much >larger than what you've got on there. >I would like to encourage the diversity aspect, too. If the >initial cd's are going to be a reflection of Looping and the >community of people at Looper's Delight, then they should try >to reflect the diversity we have here as well. It seems to me there are two plausible approaches: - try to produce a "top-notch" quality "professional" CD, - try to fit in everyone who wants to contribute. I think the latter is much more interesting, personally. Not from the perspective of contributing, but from the perspective as a listener-who-subscribes-to-this-list. Now, the above two descriptions are not quite how people have characterized things far, but I think it's relatively accurate. Presumably some people who might want to share their music with the rest of loopers' might have trouble producing music of sufficient quality to fit in the first style. If the "problems" are technical, perhaps it could be forgiven (e.g. mono recordings), although if it's an issue of musicality, there's not much that can be done. (Unlike the "Giant Tracks" example from Keyboard, one can't go back and "edit" ones loops very usefully.) Regardless of which way it goes, I would strongly recommend and up-front investigation of the added cost of doing a double-CD. This would allow both longer tracks and more participants, in some mix; increasing the quantity of participants will keep the cost to each from rising while increasing the track time will, no doubt, make everyone involved happier. (But requiring more sales to recoup the investments.) Sean Barrett PS: To put this a different way: I'm much more interested in hearing what everyone is doing then I am in purchasing a slick "best of". My personal opinion of course. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:23:24 -0800 From: Neil Goldstein To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: CD Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to contribute a track to the project. Question for me will be: which part of which one, as I have hours of looped improvisation on dat. Looping has heretofore been a relationship with the Unbounded. The question of beginning, middle and end (composition) has been on hold for sake of Exploration. That in mind, some sort of guidelines for length of the piece would be helpful. Neil ngold@imagina.com Portland, OR USA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:23:54 From: Kevin Miller To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <3.0.2.16.19971202122354.40073b4c@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Thanks for the vote. What I'll be doing in the next couple of days is >compiling a list of everyone who has expressed interest in the project. >Then I've code a quick web page detailing how I think the project should >proceed (including submission criteria, deadlines, calls for volunteers, >etc) and then everyone can hack it to shreds!! Sound good? > >I'll coordinate with Kim to get the page linked to Looper's Delight. > >Matt I'm very interested! Looking forward to contributing, and eagerly await the details of the project. Thanks, Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:38:16 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <199712021733.JAA14652@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A number of people have mentioned the possibility of releasing a double CD. This idea is worth investigating *if* there is a need. We can (and will) address this need after I have a better idea of who is submitting material. > From: Mike Biffle > Sean mentions track time below and, knowing how I and many other loopers > operate, track time of less than 5 minutes is just not enough to build a > dynamic, real-time loop. I would imagine that there are many who would prefer to > have possibly ten minutes or more. The problem with longer track times is that the cost per submitter increases. In theory the idea of having longer track times provides greater artistic freedom...but, because track time is directly related to cost, it could also serve to eliminate some people who would otherwise submit material. > What might be a target maximum track time? How many submissions we have now? A > single CD might only cover submissions from 7-10 persons. We might have to > create a multi CD project to accomodate the entire group! The $100 submission > should still cover it. My estimates were based on a cost of $1200 for 500 CDs. With 12 submitters the cost per person is $100...which seemed reasonable and do-able to me. That being said, we could cut a few corners, lower the cost and the need for 12 submitters, and hopefully keep the cost around $100 each. For instance, we could go with a 2 panel booklet instead of 4, b&w instead of color, etc. > Like Sean, I would probably prefer to hear what everyone's up to rather than try > to make this a marketable slick product. We could certainly boil these > submissions down after the project for a commercial endeavor based on everyone's > favorites. I'm sure we would all like to hear what everyone is up to BUT I think some of us would also like to have a project pay for itself (marketable slick product). Personally, I'm tried of dishing out hard-earned money to press CDs that don't sell as well as I would hope. I still have about 250 CDs sitting in my basement from my old defunct band.....and a $800 bill that will probably never be recouped from sales. Alas....that's my problem. Granted....$100 or even $150 isn't that much.....but....compilation CDs can be very hard to sell if there are a few "lemon tracks." Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:48:37 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: "Loop List" Subject: double CD Message-Id: <199712021743.JAA14782@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just did a quick head count. So far 29 people have indicated that they wish to be involved in the project. A double CD release would give us 148 minutes to work with or about 5 minutes each. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 12:54:39 -0500 From: Len Seligman To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: "Matt McCabe" Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971202125439.0070c6ac@dharma.mitre.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm interested in submitting a contribution. (Looped guitar with electric violin and percussion.) Thanks, Len Seligman --------------------------------