------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 223 Today's Topics: Re: quintuple CD [ Kim Flint ] Re: quintuple CD [ Kim Flint ] Corrrect address for GC manual [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ] Number of Submissions [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ] Re: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. [ buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barre ] Re: quintuple CD [ Theatre of the Mind ] Re: Loop CD [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Macs for Music , [ "Ott, John" ] Re: Number of Submissions [ ZeplinSoup ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 17:00:56 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: quintuple CD Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971203010056.009d5a6c@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:01 PM 12/2/97 -0500, Michael Peters wrote: >Kim: > >>How about if we just do a cd on some regular basis, like every 4-6 months >>or something? Might make it easier to manage the project than trying to do >>it all at once, and then there is not the pressure to get everyone in on >>the first one. That would also allow for somewhat longer tracks. If >someone >>doesn't get on this one, there's always the next one. Then maybe we could >>start doing themed versions after a while, and a "best of" which should >>rocket up the charts.... > >sounds like a very good idea. By now so many people have expressed their >interest (some of them not happy with a 5-minute-limit) that not even a >double CD would be room enough. another thing I like about this approach is it gives more opportunity to overlap the projects and divide the production aspects among more people. So while Ray is (hopefully) finishing up the first cd, Matt is geting started on the second cd, and while Matt is in the midst of finishing that one someone else would be getting started on the third. If one person's generous volunteering becomes overwhelmed with reality for a while, there is still another project moving along somewhere in parallel. So we don't suffer with long bouts of silence, and all of the budding recording engineers get an opportunity to practice a bit. And next year, when someone from the first cd wants to show off the new music they have been working on, they can just hop onto the next cd project with a free spot. There isn't so much of a "this is the only chance" kind of feeling. You might even want to schedule who goes on what cd by who is most ready. Some folks could probably fedex a dat to Matt tomorrow, some will want a little more time to edit some things, some even more to compose and record a special piece. And some probably still need to save their pennies to get a dat recorder. :-) The folks who are all ready shouldn't have to wait for those still working on it, and those working shouldn't feel too rushed to do their best. >One other thing: If we want this to be a commercial success, how about >asking somebody famous (like Torn) to contribute a short clip. (cries of >disgust) Ok, ok, this is a stupid marketing trick, and of course we *are* >all fine enough musicians and our music can stand for itself ... it was >just an idea. What do you think? (I'm sure Torn would contribute one of his >cool loops which are only available on expensive CDROMs.) That might be fun if Mr Torn or some of the other more successful folks around were interested in joining in. He does lurk around here sometimes, so he sort of qualifies. I see a couple of problems with that, though. One is that the more famous person might overshadow the others sharing the disc, so that the average folk's work doesn't get so much an opportunity to stand on its own. And second, while Mr. Torn manages to be quite diverse himself, he still only represents a limited spectrum of the styles that might be on the same disc. His audience would likely dominate the sales of the cd, and they might not be so appreciative of other musicians employing loops to create radically different styles, which might not be so fair to those folks. Just some thoughts, any others? Commercial success of these things doesn't have to be that huge, just enough to pay the costs and hopefully a little extra to help with the ISP bills for the site. I kind of like the grassroots approach where everyone gets to put their stuff out and share it around, and we say individually and collectively, "hey, this is who we are." It should be fun, right? kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:04:44 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: quintuple CD Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971203030444.0070dcf8@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:01 PM 12/2/97 -0500, Michael Peters wrote: >Kim: > >>How about if we just do a cd on some regular basis, like every 4-6 months >>or something? Might make it easier to manage the project than trying to do >>it all at once, and then there is not the pressure to get everyone in on >>the first one. That would also allow for somewhat longer tracks. If >someone >>doesn't get on this one, there's always the next one. Then maybe we could >>start doing themed versions after a while, and a "best of" which should >>rocket up the charts.... > >sounds like a very good idea. By now so many people have expressed their >interest (some of them not happy with a 5-minute-limit) that not even a >double CD would be room enough. another thing I like about this approach is it gives more opportunity to overlap the projects and divide the production aspects among more people. So while Ray is (hopefully) finishing up the first cd, Matt is geting started on the second cd, and while Matt is in the midst of finishing that one someone else would be getting started on the third. If one person's generous volunteering becomes overwhelmed with reality for a while, there is still another project moving along somewhere in parallel. So we don't suffer with long bouts of silence, and all of the budding recording engineers get an opportunity to practice a bit. And next year, when someone from the first cd wants to show off the new music they have been working on, they can just hop onto the next cd project with a free spot. There isn't so much of a "this is the only chance" kind of feeling. You might even want to schedule who goes on what cd by who is most ready. Some folks could probably fedex a dat to Matt tomorrow, some will want a little more time to edit some things, some even more to compose and record a special piece. And some probably still need to save their pennies to get a dat recorder. :-) The folks who are all ready shouldn't have to wait for those still working on it, and those working shouldn't feel too rushed to do their best. >One other thing: If we want this to be a commercial success, how about >asking somebody famous (like Torn) to contribute a short clip. (cries of >disgust) Ok, ok, this is a stupid marketing trick, and of course we *are* >all fine enough musicians and our music can stand for itself ... it was >just an idea. What do you think? (I'm sure Torn would contribute one of his >cool loops which are only available on expensive CDROMs.) That might be fun if Mr Torn or some of the other more successful folks around were interested in joining in. He does lurk around here sometimes, so he sort of qualifies. I see a couple of problems with that, though. One is that the more famous person might overshadow the others sharing the disc, so that the average folk's work doesn't get so much an opportunity to stand on its own. And second, while Mr. Torn manages to be quite diverse himself, he still only represents a limited spectrum of the styles that might be on the same disc. His audience would likely dominate the sales of the cd, and they might not be so appreciative of other musicians employing loops to create radically different styles, which might not be so fair to those folks. Just some thoughts, any others? Commercial success of these things doesn't have to be that huge, just enough to pay the costs and hopefully a little extra to help with the ISP bills for the site. I kind of like the grassroots approach where everyone gets to put their stuff out and share it around, and we say individually and collectively, "hey, this is who we are." It should be fun, right? kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:03:29 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Corrrect address for GC manual Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" That's steevmg@aol.com. Thanks for you patience, P. *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:00:09 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Number of Submissions Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Seeing we are zooming past thirty even as I type one suggestion that comes to mind is to set the submission date. This will thin the ranks. One of the early problems with CD #1 was that Ray had to wait for people's submissions. Just an idea. For that release a Track Limit of 9 minutes was established. While this would keep the number of contributers to 8, provided every one went the limit, it does give people time to work in. Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 00:46:54 -0500 From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <199712030546.AA19773@world.std.com> >How about a "flagship" CD plus a "everyone together", >not-as-slick double TAPE (ie much cheaper) with everyone? >...Tape tree! Oh, good point. Somehow I had forgotten the existence of all non-digital media... (well, assuming you mean tape tape not DAT). I guess it's just not quite as sexy as a CD so harder to find someone willing to run it. Sean Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 02:50:37 -0500 From: Theatre of the Mind To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: quintuple CD Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971203025037.006aee60@popmail.voicenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:04 PM 12/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 06:01 PM 12/2/97 -0500, Michael Peters wrote: >>Kim: >> >.......... I kind of like the grassroots approach where >everyone gets to put their stuff out and share it around, and we say individually and collectively, "hey, this is who we are." It should be fun, right? >kim >_______________________________________________________ >Kim Flint 408-752-9284 >Mpact Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com >Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com Now you're talking. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 03:10:29 -0500 From: Theatre of the Mind To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Number of Submissions Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971203031029.006adbc4@popmail.voicenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:00 PM 12/2/97 +0200, you wrote: >Seeing we are zooming past thirty even as I type one suggestion that comes >to mind is to set the submission date. This will thin the ranks. One of the >early problems with CD #1 was that Ray had to wait for people's >submissions. Just an idea. > > For that release a Track Limit of 9 minutes was established. While this >would keep the number of contributers to 8, provided every one went the >limit, it does give people time to work in. > >Patrick > > > *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** > > > > > > > I like that idea. This way everybody's on there own time-line. And it's all about timing,,,,,,,,,,,,,isn't it? Mark b. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:43:14 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: quintuple CD Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971203104314.2e7779aa@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>One other thing: If we want this to be a commercial success, how about >>asking somebody famous (like Torn) to contribute a short clip. (cries of >>disgust) Ok, ok, this is a stupid marketing trick, and of course we *are* >>all fine enough musicians and our music can stand for itself ... it was >>just an idea. What do you think? (I'm sure Torn would contribute one of his >>cool loops which are only available on expensive CDROMs.) If music could stand for itself, I can think of any number of musicians who deserve as much success as the Spice Girls. Let's face it, we need all the help we can get! I think it's a great idea. Besides, I like the prospect of getting another Torn track! :) >That might be fun if Mr Torn or some of the other more successful folks >around were interested in joining in. He does lurk around here sometimes, so >he sort of qualifies. I see a couple of problems with that, though. One is >that the more famous person might overshadow the others sharing the disc, so >that the average folk's work doesn't get so much an opportunity to stand on >its own. Well, that will happen anyway, albeit to a lesser degree. People like Jon, Warren or Andre f.e. are way up the Looping Tree compared to, say, little ole me. If CD gets snapped by a bunch of Torn fans, they are probably going to enjoy it since they've got to be pretty damned open minded to begin with! >And second, while Mr. Torn manages to be quite diverse himself, he >still only represents a limited spectrum of the styles that might be on the >same disc. His audience would likely dominate the sales of the cd, and they >might not be so appreciative of other musicians employing loops to create >radically different styles, which might not be so fair to those folks. Just >some thoughts, any others? that's going to be a problem regardless - if the content is too diverse, people will find tracks they dislike (A friend of mine borrowed Eric Johnson's Ah Via Musicom and thought it was OK - would have been great if not for that _country_ track!). And if you look down the list of influences on the LD website, Torn must figure in about 50% of them - so at least the CD should sound cohesive. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:14:01 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. Message-Id: <5861.199712031114@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> How about a "flagship" CD plus a "everyone together", >> not-as-slick double TAPE (ie much cheaper) with everyone? ...Tape tree! > Oh, good point. Somehow I had forgotten the existence > of all non-digital media... (well, assuming you mean > tape tape not DAT). I mean tape tape not DAT! > I guess it's just not quite as sexy as a CD so harder to find someone > willing to run it. "I'm too sexy for my tape!" The point is, if we do a LD tape for our own consumption we can skimp on some of the glossier production aspects (mastering, presentation etc) in order to produce a LD tape for oor own consumption. Then everybody is better placed to work out who gets on the CD, because we all have copies of everyone else's work. I think the aims of "let's show the world what we can do" and "let's find out what we all actually do" are completely different, and as such can be adressed more easily using diferent formats. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:24:00 -0500 From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: 'Loopers Delight' Subject: King Crimson Concert in London, England Message-ID: <01BCFFCD.3238E7E0@mark.asisoftware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Did anyone see the King Crimson "research" concert with Fripp, Gunn, Levin and Mastellato in London, England? I think they were playing 3 or 4 nights of improvisations. Was there much looping? Thanks, Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue 02 Dec 1997 21:33 ET From: MEHDI@ms.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: HI ALL! , Message-Id: <199712031435.JAA00820@bkinis.ms.com> Hi folks, this is my first time hooking up on LOOP... I am looking to get into doing musci sampling and mixing...I believe I have a good ear for sound and world music...However, I have no formal music training...Someone told me to get a MAC and that I could experiment on mixing music/sounds etc.. Any idea for a novice like myself ? Your advice would be much appreciated thanks, m ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:51:02 -0500 (EST) From: ZeplinSoup@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: HI ALL! , Message-ID: <971203105102_-971325974@mrin45.mail.aol.com> m, I would recommend a PC as hardware/software innovations are more frequently made available to a lesser price and greater frequency.Actaully MAcs are great,probally even better than PC perhaps but they are harder to upgrade and with only 4-5% market share new developers are concentratin on PCs (duh). How would it help if you could actually USE the new goodies, for example programs like Reality, or whatever because your hardware is compatable.Actaully you never even worry about compatability with a PC..with direct x now standard for audio software pulg-ins (the cool stuff) and there are many companies tripping over themselves now developing for that...with a Mac there is no standard!hence high prices and less you can use with everything...hope this helps Reeve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:07:48 -0700 From: "frivolous" To: "Loopers-Delight Postings" Subject: Re: King Crimson Concert in London, England Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1925 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not really King Crimson - it's Fripp, Gunn, Bruford & Levin, calling themselves "PROJECkT One". Not much looping, only Fripp himself with his current Soundscapes setup (four TC2290s, two Eventide H3000 UltraHarmonizers, Korg A3, Sound Sculpture SwitchBlade, et al). The music itself is extremely interesting, however - very weird, sometimes jazzy, sometimes funky, especially when Fripp cranks up the fretless bass preset on his VG-8, or a synth organ sound for comping. Levin's on Chapman Stick, and MusicMan StingRay, and NS Electric Upright, and Clavia Nord Lead synth, and Sony digital camera. Bruford is completely acoustic - no Simmons SDX, just lots of clattering thrakking noises, while Trey Gunn is on a planet of his own (Warr Guitar, Trace Elliot stack, and some effects box that scrolls the message "Bite Me, Bagel Boy" in between patch changes.) There's still two nights of this madness left - tonight (Wednesday) and Thursday. The Jazz Cafe is extremely close to the Camden Town "Tube" station, in the street called "Parkway". My ticket for Thursday may be going spare, so drop me a line by Thursday mid-day (GMT) if you're interested in going... there might be some more on sale (15 pounds) at the door, too. (Tuesday was half-empty). Music starts at 9PM, with Fripp doing very minimal Soundscapes (3-4 plucked notes an hour) on and off from before the doors open (7PM). If anybody knows the area, I'll be in the O'Neills Irish pub 2/3 the way down Camden High Street on the right, from about 7:00-8:30 tonight and tomorrow, wearing a beard, glasses, big blue coat and carrying a brown shoulder bag, drinking Guinness... Cheers! (hic) Brian Thomson aka: --- frivolous@mailexcite.com London, UK http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/3242/ See the XLChords project - MS Excel does chords? Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:17:13 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Looper CD Message-Id: <199712031612.IAA01129@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Jesse Kudler > I admittedly haven't been following this thread too closely, but the prices > estimated seem pretty damn high to me. $1200 for 500 CD's? You can get > them for a lot less, do cheap but creative packaging and stay well below a > thousand. The $100 per person seems pretty steep to me. Maybe the > administrator type can shop around for good deals and then split the cost > among the participants. If Jesse or anybody has any leads on lower CD duplication prices please email me privately with the company name and number. I'm all for getting the best price. Thanks!! Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:38:25 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Loop CD Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some new ideas, starting out from some old facts: When I had the idea to do such a CD for the first time in '92, I had no idea of Internet nor Oberheim... But I wanted to create a users group and call it: LOOP GROOP. In '94 I suggested to the 100 clients of the LOOP delay to create such a group and start it with a CD and got 4 very good submissions on DAT - which was not enough to make the CD: - Andre Cricula (AVALON nylon guitar) + Conny Summer (marimba) - Kuno Wagner (Stick) - Patrick Steinbach (guitars) - Renato Rizzo (flamenco guitar) Then the net came here and I learned what a mailing list is and I was pleased that a LOOP GROOP happened in a very simple and alive way, much better than I could have imagined. The proposual of the CD came up quickly and I submitted a CD-R with about 12 pieces to Ray: - the 4 submissions I got in '94, - some of my sound with various partners - some other music recorded with loops by people here that do not use computers for comunication. (and most probably would not pay to participate) I see three purposes of this action: A - Exchange of ideas between loopists so we get to know each other better and have a base to discuss methods and music and hopefully all can grow a bit. B - Help for musicians that cannot afford to produce a CD of their own, but need one to get jobs... C - Promotion of our music in the world so people get an idea what looping may sound like, respect and contract musicians that do it. Isn't it possible that some music magazine might dedicate and article and include such CD? D - Publicity for the equipment. Oberheim might be interested in offering such a CD to their clients to show why they should buy such equippment (like a prospect) and then how they could use it (like a manual) For A, the samples on the site might be enough. So I think this is a valid effort, even if never any CD will grow out of it. I had proposed to do CDR for this purpose, but you did not like the idea and I must admit that if 100 send songs in, it takes at least 5 CDRs to put them on, and 150 want a copy of all, that makes 750 CDRs to burn... Maybe, Michals "tapeTree" idea is a good one, so we get better sound quality, more music time, less net download time and people without audio computer can participate, too. For B, I think the list can be a helpfull meeting point, but there is no need to "centralize" on the list. Such CDs could be done within groups of members that find to have the same idea, level, style, taste, whatever and discover a way to produce it. The samples on the site may help to form such groups. There may be more time for each musician. Usually 3 minutes is not enough, really. For C, we need to achieve maximum musical and technical quality, otherwhise it simply does not have the effect, or even a negative one. C would be an option in the future. Once some work is ready, we can negociate with Oberheim or Boomerang. It probably means that only pieces recorded with the respective equippment are of interest. I somehow liked the idea of separating styles, since we know that there will be more submissions than space on one CD. Probably two CDs are not much more expensive to produce than one doubble and it will be cheaper for the buyer and easier to use for a certain public, select a cover that fits the style, find work in a certain place... So the "2nd CD project" will not include what happened so far? Will I have to submit a new CD to participate? Nevermind... Often, musicians take a long time to get their piece together, so we could also start the CD simply with the ones that send in first, see how it goes and head for another one. Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:16:57 -0600 From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: Macs for Music , Message-ID: >>quote>> > -----Original Message----- > From: ZeplinSoup@aol.com [SMTP:ZeplinSoup@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 10:56 AM > To: John_Ott@ATK.COM > Subject: Re: HI ALL! , > > m, > I would recommend a PC as hardware/software innovations > are more frequently made available to a lesser price and greater > frequency.Actaully MAcs are great,probally even better than PC perhaps > but > they are harder to upgrade and with only 4-5% market share new > developers > are concentratin on PCs (duh). > How would it help if you could actually USE the new goodies, > for example programs like Reality, or whatever because your hardware > is > compatable.Actaully you never even worry about compatability with a > PC..with > direct x now standard for audio software pulg-ins (the cool stuff) > and there > are many companies tripping over themselves now developing for > that...with a > Mac there is no standard!hence high prices and less you can use with > everything...hope this helps > Reeve < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Number of Submissions Message-ID: <4086ee07.3485d47e@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit does mp3 help in this regard or nay? --------------------------------