------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 224 Today's Topics: Re: Macs for Music , [ Paolo Valladolid ] CD [ "Siobhan Canty" ] Re: The 2nd CD project. [ ANET@aol.com ] Re: HI ALL! , [ Mark Sottilaro ] Mac vs PC = Intellectual Self-Abuse [ "Stephen P. Goodman" ] Jam man sighting [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ] Re: Mac vs PC = Intellectual Self-Ab [ JT ] Re: CD [ "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." ] RE: Looper CD [ "Hogan, Greg (Exchange)" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Macs for Music , Message-Id: <199712032225.OAA09806@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My take on this is boring and predictable, but has to be said: Identify the software you want to use, then get the hardware that will run it. For example, if you decide you have an immediate need for Max, a graphical programming toolkit for MIDI and other music applications, then you go with a Mac or an SGI workstation. The latest version of the bio for Miller Puckette, creator of Max, says that a Windows version is a possibility, but it may be quite a wait. Cheers, Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:58:39 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: 2nd CD -- Themes and Costs Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F410A44@mail.exapps.com> Content-Type: text/plain Just a few ideas on the idea of The Loopers-Delight CD Series. 1. Why not try to loosely follow themes for each CD? For example: by nation or by instrument or by genre or by season 2. If multiple CD's are created (with themes or not) - maybe a common look/logo may be useful to tie them together?? 3. Don't forget mastering! Depending on who does this and what resources are available to them this may not be an issue - but without some quality mastering to help level match and preserve frequencies. I've been on a compilation CD and it's easy to become disappointed if the mastering is done really poorly... And good mastering is about $100 an hour. For 70 minutes of programming count on at least 3-4 hours... david -----Original Message----- From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk [SMTP:pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 2:41 PM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: The 2nd CD project. >My estimates were based on a cost of $1200 for 500 CDs. With 12 submitters >the cost per person is $100...which seemed reasonable and do-able to me. >That being said, we could cut a few corners, lower the cost and the need >for 12 submitters, and hopefully keep the cost around $100 each. For >instance, we could go with a 2 panel booklet instead of 4, b&w instead of >color, etc. If the average length of a CD is 72min (I know it's longer but bear with me), this works out at $100 for 6 min (or 28c/sec!)... I think no track should exceed 10 minutes, just to stop one player dominating the CD. >I'm sure we would all like to hear what everyone is up to BUT I think some >of us would also like to have a project pay for itself (marketable slick >product). How about a "flagship" CD plus a "everyone together", not-as-slick double TAPE (ie much cheaper) with everyone? If everybody knew what everyone else was doing, people would be more willing to form "cliques" of music which would sit well together and do it themselves. Hey! Tape tree! Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:21:38 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Delightful Luups Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F410A46@mail.exapps.com> Content-Type: text/plain I've forgotten who's counting and gathering submissions - but please count me in on one of the loopy CD's ! David Kirkdorffer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:29:42 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: Delightful Luups Message-Id: <199712032325.PAA09569@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've forgotten who's counting and gathering submissions - but please > count me in on one of the loopy CD's ! David, That person is me. I got your name! Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:30:36 -0500 From: "Siobhan Canty" To: "Loopers Delight" Subject: CD Message-Id: <23302569800971@cfpa.org> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have only been able to follow all of this loosely (my boss just doesn't have her priorities straight like me!!) so apologies if this is a repeat but two more cents to consider: If you are considering doing more than one CD, you could do them on a regional basis. Have the loopers in each area organize, choose, each region gets a side of a double CD or their own or whatever. That way the work gets broken out to various people, the product is more effective in terms of promoting gigs, it might even be a vehicle to meet each other and perform together. Might be too involved but its a thought.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:15:13 -0500 (EST) From: ANET@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-ID: <971203191513_164709796@mrin85.mail.aol.com> Agreed. Diversity is needed on the project. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:46:33 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sottilaro To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: HI ALL! , Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In reply to the advise to get a PC instead of a Mac, I've got to laugh a little. As a former employee of a music store that sold both Mac and PC software, I found the PC much, much harder to configure and use than the Mac. I must admit that on the low end of things there is more software for the PC platform, but as a professional audio engineer (used to work for Laurie Anderson) I have never seen any pro audio production done on a PC. ProTools for the Mac is still the standard as far as I can tell. It's very pricey, but it is professional hardware/software, and that stuff is always pricey. Now for the fun part...Guess what? WINDOWS SUCKS! (every version of it) We use both at my current job, and it's unanimous: Macintosh operating system version is far, far more stable and easy to use than Windows 95. Another thing is that most better Macs come with very good 16bit sound cards that let you record directly to your hard disk AS YOU ARE LISTENING TO YOUR PREVIOUS SOUND TRACKS. To do this on a PC you need extra audio cards which drive the price of that cheep maching up. When I bought my Mac 2 years ago, I did a a/b price compair of Mac and name brand PC clones (not crap) and came up with only a $300 difference, and that was when Macs were much more expencive than they are now. Well worth is for the ease of use and reliability. Pretty soon there will be a version of the Mac OS that will blow everything away on the consumer market (Steve Jobs NextOS for the Mac) When that hits I think things may change a lot, as they already have a version that will run on intel pc machines. Good luck with your decision. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:46:41 -0800 From: Roland Eberle To: Loopers-Delight Subject: CD #17 Message-ID: <3485FD71.5C6A0D2E@ccnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey...since we're queing up for future releases... pencil me in for CD #17....by then Oberheim should have EDP's on the shelves :~\ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:48:43 -0800 From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Mac vs PC = Intellectual Self-Abuse Message-ID: <01bd0056$c0d4c940$a922dacf@sgoodman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First off, as a person who not only has to purchase but support the hardware and software, much of it bought by the studio execs I work for who don't often know what they're buying, I have to finally toss in my experience regarding this stuff. Having worked with the PC since 1980, and the Mac since '85, I have to always make the decision based upon the questions of longevity, support, available parts, and maintenance before I start listening to the kind of religious fervor that this common (and tiresome) argument contains. In short, I have to select the best hardware/software combination for the job-at-hand; not because some salesman told me to, nor because the item-in-question is the only thing I know. I generally walk away from Mac vs. PC arguments since they're some of the most repetitive crap-throwing parties around. In this case, I have to put in an opinion before this turns into an unnecessary fire fight. First and foremost, a select group of companies - just like in the synth and instrument businesses - have held a singular hold at times on software/hardware solutions for audio/video. For some years it WAS the Mac in terms of a desktop solution on this level, but dem days has been gone for a bit. The Mac is very similar to its cousins on the SGI side in their ability to handle multimedia deftly early on in the 'game'; but also with respect to how one has to pay with blood and too much money to both get and keep it all running. The structure for support for the Mac is too proprietary to allow "just anyone" to learn about its maintenance; this began with the strict guidelines to require users to use only Apple Certified Technicians. After all, if anyone other than Apple started horning in on their game, they'd sue them out of existence, in the early days. PC users who've been working on networks only need look at Novell to see this same kind of tactic: $7000 for a four-day course, just to say you're 'certified', combined with a program structure that most folks couldn't figure out without purchasing yet more documentation from Novell. In the first place, proprietary structure is not only infeasible on a platform that's supposed to be accessible, it's marketing chicanery. As Xerox, alas, taught all too many MBAs in the 70s and 80s, they didn't sell the copier, they sold the service that copier was often engineered to need. Then the PC started emerging as The Business Machine (with the exceptions of semi-creative arenae like 'desktop publishing', audio recording, educational markets, and at the time graphics). The platform is not overpriced at the behest of its makers, parts are always available, and noone is restricted from learning more about it. It was an eventuality to grow that was unfortunately lost on those so embroiled in defending 'the computer for the rest of us' (hah!) that they lost their market share. PCs have gotten much faster and capable in the past 10 years. Macs no longer compete except on one level, and that's the "soft and fuzzy" image sold by millions of Mac Adherents world wide; this, alas, is also fluff, based more upon religious opinion than actual fact. As far as no 'professional' (what DOES that mean anymore?) audio production being done on a PC, most of the major vendors who pay attention to the market-at-hand have already introduced PC migrations some time ago. Given the inability with which Mac-borne programmers have demonstrated in writing ports of Mac software (remember QuickMail, anyone?), the majority of ports have been less-than-useable, only prompting the Mac users again to shout with glee, "See?? Shouda got a Mac!", which is just more sniping with the flavor of sour grapes, as they watch their platform lose its dominance. >ProTools for the Mac is still the standard as far as I can tell. >It's very pricey, but it is professional hardware/software, and that stuff >is always pricey. Which is another reason why people have been moving to the PC for some years now; PC software-hardware solutions are less- and less-pricey all the time, by design of the platform. Since everyone has access to the specifications for about as close to 'free' as you can get, there is an aspect of non-qualification that makes it possible for anyone to create software or hardware for the PC. This has led to more innovation and lower prices as a function of continuing innovation. The same has never been true on the Mac/SGI side. >Now for the fun part...Guess what? WINDOWS SUCKS! (every version of it) Ah, the animal reveals itself. Need I say more to this eloquent emission? >We use both at my current job, and it's unanimous: Macintosh operating >system version is far, far more stable and easy to use than Windows 95. Yes, after several years of troubleshooting the ill-borne System 7 it was actually able to load without locking your machine (though sometimes this wasn't evident, since a 'frowning face' can mean just about anything in addition to 'call a Mac technician'). >Another thing is that most better Macs come with very good 16bit sound >cards that let you record directly to your hard disk AS YOU ARE LISTENING >TO YOUR PREVIOUS SOUND TRACKS. To do this on a PC you need extra audio >cards which drive the price of that cheep maching up. Wrong, buffalo breath! There have been 32-bit duplex cards out for the PC for a few years now, and nowadays there are also multitracking packages for sale far under the inflated prices that the finite and unfortunately over-controlled Mac market sports. >When I bought my >Mac 2 years ago, I did a a/b price compair of Mac and name brand PC clones >(not crap) and came up with only a $300 difference, and that was when Macs >were much more expencive than they are now. Well worth is for the ease of >use and reliability. Stuff and nonsense. $300 is nothing compared to being able to share data with more people than just use your kind of computer. >Pretty soon there will be a version of the Mac OS that will blow >everything away on the consumer market (Steve Jobs NextOS for the Mac) >When that hits I think things may change a lot, as they already have a >version that will run on intel pc machines. We were hearing this about 4 years ago, and again, 8 years ago. And if the Mac was so superior, why did they have to work on a version (still enshrouded in smoke and marketing bs, and perhaps non-existent at this time) to work on the non-68000 platform? Think about it. People who don't want to be trapped into a support dependency cycle and know what they're buying don't buy Macs anymore. The folks at the studio I support have been replacing their formerly adored Macs for several years now, since there are much more reliable and cost-efficient solutions on the PC platform. And eventually, the law of diminishing returns will kick in even more than it has. And, finally, if you buy a PC you won't find yourself feeling like you need to embroil yourself in arguments defending, at this point, the indefensible, which, in this case, is a platform that made its contribution in its own time, but eventually will be seen to have fallen from an over-insulated perch. You'll just be using your PC, since, after all, you bought it to Use it, period. Some Tips: 1. Go to Windows NT for audio-video production. It appears that more applications of this kind are emerging for NT in particular. Windows as such is after all designed for a single-user machine/workstation. 2. Seriously consider the Cyrix 6x86 as opposed to Intel Pentium or the rest. The 6x86 chip they're making has far more ports through it than the Pentium or the Pentium II, and as such is less subject to any bottlenecks that may occur. And finally, I won't engage in any firefights on the above since it's a waste of time. It's like me saying "the sky is blue", and having to argue with shrill individuals who insist that, because it's not ALWAYS blue, my argument is invalid. I'm sure there are still uses for Macs out there, but it's not by any stretch of the imagination a standardized, dominant platform, as much as it's becoming a positive signpost of development of the home computer. History, that is. Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:07:19 -0800 From: "Eric R. Fischer" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: The 2nd CD project. Message-ID: <34861057.7C13@artnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ANET@aol.com wrote: > 3) A producer/project-manager would be appointed to "ride-heard". The > producer would solict submissions, weed them out and or put them up for a > vote. Contact and keep track of all the participants. Start time-lines on > project dates and report back to the group. Mix down the final cuts for > consistant sound quality on the CD, make contact with the submittors to > refine any flaws etc. etc. Contact the CD press and submit the DATs for > press. A cover would need to be designed as well. In short the producer will > do just about all the work. Please count me in on this list. I have had sporadic talks with Matt on this. I have loops to submit, and access to the technology to help in all aspects of the project. If people would like, I have acess to one of Hollywoods best studios for mixing (and would be happy to mix them myself) sequencing, and premastering. Almost no format too arcane. I also have a friend in Oregon who has a great mastering facility with rockin' package discounts for me on CD's. > Looks like there are about 9 solid respondants to this proposal so far. > 1)Kim, of course (you do play with these things you build don't you) > 2)Matt Mcabe who has volunteered as the Producer > 3)Michael Peters in Colonge, Germany who has some very nice samples set up. > 4)John Peters, Rochester, Minnesota Acoustic guitarist (27yrs) > 5)Randy Jones down there in Tejas 30 yr. guitarist > 6)Stefano in Italy. > 7)Mike Biffle > 8)Travis Harnett > 9)Siobhan Canty > Please forgive me if I misspelled anyone's name. Looks like a good mix. Keep me in mind - Eric R. Fischer Recording Engineer/Looper Los Angeles,Ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:07:49 -0800 From: "Eric R. Fischer" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: The 2nd CD project - Me Too! Me Too! Message-ID: <34861075.426@artnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ANET@aol.com wrote: > 3) A producer/project-manager would be appointed to "ride-heard". The > producer would solict submissions, weed them out and or put them up for a > vote. Contact and keep track of all the participants. Start time-lines on > project dates and report back to the group. Mix down the final cuts for > consistant sound quality on the CD, make contact with the submittors to > refine any flaws etc. etc. Contact the CD press and submit the DATs for > press. A cover would need to be designed as well. In short the producer will > do just about all the work. Please count me in on this list. I have had sporadic talks with Matt on this. I have loops to submit, and access to the technology to help in all aspects of the project. If people would like, I have acess to one of Hollywoods best studios for mixing (and would be happy to mix them myself) sequencing, and premastering. Almost no format too arcane. I also have a friend in Oregon who has a great mastering facility with rockin' package discounts for me on CD's. > Looks like there are about 9 solid respondants to this proposal so far. > 1)Kim, of course (you do play with these things you build don't you) > 2)Matt Mcabe who has volunteered as the Producer > 3)Michael Peters in Colonge, Germany who has some very nice samples set up. > 4)John Peters, Rochester, Minnesota Acoustic guitarist (27yrs) > 5)Randy Jones down there in Tejas 30 yr. guitarist > 6)Stefano in Italy. > 7)Mike Biffle > 8)Travis Harnett > 9)Siobhan Canty > Please forgive me if I misspelled anyone's name. Looks like a good mix. Keep me in mind - Eric R. Fischer Recording Engineer/Looper Los Angeles,Ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:19:33 -0800 From: "Eric R. Fischer" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: The 2nd CD project - $$$ Message-ID: <34861334.6FD7@artnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My first quote from my pal is @ $1,300.00 for 1000 CD's. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:38:21 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: "Stephen P. Goodman" Cc: Subject: Re: Mac vs PC = Intellectual Self-Abuse Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971204023821.00d622b8@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For someone who doesn't like wasting time on pc vs mac arguments, you sure have a lot to say! At 05:48 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Stephen P. Goodman wrote: >I generally walk away from Mac vs. PC arguments since they're some of the >most repetitive crap-throwing parties around. I think we can all agree on this point. If anyone else has anything else to say on the subject that is unrelated to looping, please consider going somewhere else, like alt.pc.vs.mac.oh-god-not-this-again. thanks, kim (who gets paid nicely to design multi-media pc's and still won't use one at home....:-) ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:28:38 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jam man sighting Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" LEXICON JAMMAN with full upgrade & footswitch EXC $taking offers Just saw this on rec.music.makers.market. Contact: spacex@ix.netcom.com to make an offer. There's also one on the Rogue Auction SIte. Good luck, Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 19:38:02 -0800 From: JT To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Mac vs PC = Intellectual Self-Abuse Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971203193802.006d69c8@mail.nwlink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Disclaimer: not a platform war, just adding some info. >We were hearing this about 4 years ago, and again, 8 years ago. And if the >Mac was so superior, why did they have to work on a version (still >enshrouded in smoke and marketing bs, and perhaps non-existent at this time) >to work on the non-68000 platform? NEXTSTEP has been available for the Intel platform since the pre-Pentium days. Also, NeXT was working on a PowerPC version that ran on exisiting Mac hardware a few years ago. Knowing that, Apple's decision to buy NeXT becomes a bit more obvious. ;) Porting NEXTSTEP to PowerPC isn't an issue. Porting it to Intel isn't an issue. What they've been focusing on is the transition. JT ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:42:07 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: CD Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971204104207.092f1150@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Siobhan: >If you are considering doing more than one CD, you could do them on a >regional basis. Have the loopers in each area organize, choose, each >region gets a side of a double CD or their own or whatever. That way the >work gets broken out to various people, the product is more effective in >terms of promoting gigs, it might even be a vehicle to meet each other and >perform together. Might be too involved but its a thought.... This could be cool - FE we have enough European loopers on LD to make a go of it. I guess the US would spit into vaguely East/West lines, and so forth. (Matthias will probably get most of the S. America disc to himself!) I still think that in the short term, a tape tree is the way to go. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 01:35:48 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: 2nd CD -- Themes and Costs Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971204093548.00a352bc@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:58 PM 12/3/97 -0500, David Kirkdorffer wrote: >Just a few ideas on the idea of The Loopers-Delight CD Series. > >1. Why not try to loosely follow themes for each CD? For example: > by nation or > by instrument or > by genre or > by season my only reservation with this idea has to do with the sort of problems the Looper's Delight list has run into as things have grown. Diversity does not come easily anywhere, and we are not an exception. Since LD was initially popularized in a narrow range of places, at first there were disproportionate numbers of people from very particular stylistic backgrounds. I was never very happy with this, since I was keenly aware from my own experiences developing the tools that a much wider range of people were interested and using these techniques in their music. An unfortunate group dynamic tended to happen then, whereby looping tended to be equated with those couple of styles that were heavily represented. During those times, quite a few people from different backgrounds happened upon us by chance, joined the list with excitement, did not feel very comfortable or welcome, and quickly left. I think that was very unfortunate, since some of them were quite interesting and could have shared with us much more than we had on our own. As time has passed this has gradually changed. Maybe we've matured a bit and are more accepting of the different sorts of loopers, or maybe it's just entropy. But gradually our little microcosm has become a bit more representative of the looping universe, and I for one have been enjoying that a lot. I think we gain much from those with different experiences than our own, and I hope we can continue to grow in that direction. So with the CDs, I rather hope they are not too stylistically thematic at first. I would rather not see us once again imparting the impression that Looping is one particular type of music. First impressions matter, and I'm afraid that if the first cd was all one sort of thing, we would once again be biasing the definition of Looping towards that, and once again alienating anyone else who should happen to come across our little community here. So my feeling is, let's have some great music, and let it spread wide and show some of our differences! Sure it might not be a perfectly consistent thing, but so what? I *like* albums that go different places! We might even get some of the people with more dj/remixing experience to help sequence tracks in a nice way, and get them to flow together creatively. That could be fun by itself. In the long run, themes should be pursued, because that idea has a lot of merit too. But showing off our diversity would be a great way to start, IMO. >2. If multiple CD's are created (with themes or not) - maybe a common >look/logo may be useful to tie them together?? Well, how about the Looper's Delight logo that Tom Attix brilliantly created for us? I think that would look splendid on a CD cover! This is going to be fun...I'm really looking forward to buying a stack o'cds to give out to all sorts of people I know. keep the thing moving! kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:07:27 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg (Exchange)" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Looper CD Message-Id: <215C1D5A0FFDD011B3CC00805FC18C291786D3@NTSRV2.LEXICON.COM> Content-Type: text/plain To any one interested in purchasing a PC or MAC for audio I suggest that you lurk on the two following email lists, gather up some questions and ask them of the people who are using these machines day in and day out: To subscribe to the PC-DAW-digest send a message with "subscribe pc-daw-digest" in the body of the message to majordomo@missionrec.com To subscribe to the mac-daw-digest point your browser to http://www.daw-mac.com where you will find subscription information. I strongly suggest using the digest versions of these lists as they are fairly high in the volume of posts. Best regards, Greg --------------------------------