------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 229 Today's Topics: FS:Echoplex $700 [ "Hartnett, Travis" ] Fripp in Phil. [ Henry Throop ------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 229 Today's Topics: FS:Echoplex $700 [ "Hartnett, Travis" < ] Fripp in Phil. [ Henry Throop < ] Re:N.A.M.M show [ "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." < ] Re: N.A.M.M show [ Andre LaFosse < ] Re: Looper CD: last call for contrib [ Mike.Biffle@wj.com (Mike Biffle) ] Re: Re:N.A.M.M show [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pyc ] Re:N.A.M.M show [ Kim Flint < ] Re: Re:N.A.M.M show [ Tom Spaulding < ] Re: Re:N.A.M.M show [ Kim Flint < ] Re: Who's going to NAMM? [ "Pete Gilbert" < To: "Loopers Delight postings" < Subject: FS:Echoplex $700 Message-ID: < Content-Type: text/plain; Name="Message Body" 0berheim Ech0plex w/ footswitch Asking Price: US$N/A Condition: Good Age: N/A Description: latest version software 5.0 1 meg memory- can be expanded to 16 meg for 198 second recording time less than 1 year old $700 obo might consider partial trade but need cash to be in the deal Partial trade items of interest might include: Alesis DM5 H.A.T. Kat Pedal Alesis Monitor Ones Electric 12 string Seller: Pat Murphy, E-mail: murff@bellsouth.net Post Date: 12/11/97 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:11:15 -0800 From: cdrynan@sequeltech.com (Chris Drynan) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" < Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <<01BD0679.51821150@post34.sequeltech.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD0679.5186A530" -----Original Message----- From: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com [SMTP:Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 8:53 AM To: Loopers-Delight-d@annihilist.com Subject: Loopers-Delight-d Digest V97 #228 <<<< Message: Untitled Attachment >> <<<< Message: Vortex Virgin >> <<<< Message: Re: sorry . . . >> <<<< Message: Re: Vortex w/ headphones >> <<<< Message: Re: Vortex w/ headphones >> <<<< Message: Re: Loop Length >> <<<< Message: Re: Vortex w/ headphones >> <<<< Message: Big Block 454 >> <<<< Message: Re: Vortex w/ headphones >> <<<< Message: Mixer Use >> <<<< Message: Re: Mixer Use >> <<<< Message: < >> <<<< Message: < >> <<<< Message: Re: Vortex w/ headphones >> <<<< Message: Re: Mixer Use >> <<<< Message: Re[2]: Vortex w/ headphones >> <<<< Message: Re: Mixer Use >> <<<< Message: Re[2]: Vortex w/ headphones >> <<<< Message: Re: for sale VORTEX >> <<<< Message: Re: Mixer Use >> <<<< Message: Re: Mixer Use >> <<<< Message: Looper CD: last call for contributors!!!! >> <<<< Message: Re: domain name stuff >> <<<< Message: Who's going to NAMM? >> <<<< Message: Re: Who's going to NAMM? >> <<<< Message: Re: Who's going to NAMM? >> <<<< Message: Re: Greg H. omnipresent >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:23:38 -0800 From: Bill Dutcher < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-ID: <<34904BC9.5FAB0AD5@netwalk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Floyd, At the times that I attended the N.A.M.M show, I was working in music retail and was sent there for business purposes from my employer. I was fortunate enough one year to pick up the endorsement for Lakewood Guitars/L.R. Baggs Electronics. I would suggest contacting your local music store and ask them for the phone number to the N.A.M.M. organization. They should be able to direct you on how to obtain a pass for the show. I can tell you now that it will be alot easier to attend if your are affiliated with a music related company, i.e: endorsement, or have a friend that works at a music retail store who might be able to say work for the store. I believe the last day of the show is open to the public, and you should be able to obtain a badge for a fee. Hope that helps, Bill Floyd Miller wrote: > At 02:21 AM 12/11/97 -0800, you wrote: > >The NAMM show is coming up again, Jan 29 - Feb 1. > Where? and how does one get in? > > **************** > ********** Floyd Miller > ****** floyd@voicenet.com > ** http://www.voicenet.com/~floyd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:46:15 -0700 (MST) From: Henry Throop < To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Fripp in Phil. Message-ID: < Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII C O N C E R T N O T I C E Robert Fripp performs solo "Soundscapes" live Thursday and Friday, December 11th & 12th, 1997 8:00pm at The Painted Bride Art Center 230 Vine Street, Philadelphia, PA tel: (215) 893-1145 Information about Robert Fripp on the web can be had at The Elephant Talk web site: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et Or at The Discipline Global Mobile Web Site: http://www.discipline.co.uk -henry throop@bogart.colorado.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:17:18 -0800 From: Kim Flint < To: wsdiii@netwalk.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: < Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" NAMM is not open the public, actually. (Frankfurt musik messe is on two days, and boy does it suck.) You have to "work" for a company in the music industry that belongs to NAMM (national association of music merchants). A lot of people seem to miraculously find employment in the music industry in late january and appear at the show. Its sort of a see and be seen deal for some - there's usually lots of hair spray, spandex, silicone, and has-been rock stars walking about. (there must some neighborhood in LA that refuses to leave the 80's.) For the serious gearhead, NAMM is a giant toy store where you get to try all the toys before the other kids. Oh, and some poor souls actually have to work during all that noise and insanity..... kim At 12:23 PM -0800 12/11/97, Bill Dutcher wrote: >I believe the last day of the show is open to the public, and you should >be able to obtain a badge for a fee. >Hope that helps, > >Bill > ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:51:19 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <<3.0.1.16.19971211215119.0bff572c@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:17 AM 12/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >NAMM is not open the public, actually. (Frankfurt musik messe is on two >days, and boy does it suck.) Why? Because it demands that manufacturers come face to face with the paying public, rather than have a big holiday with rock stars and, er, people with silicone? Sorry. Stupid question. :) Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:43:32 -0600 From: Tom Spaulding < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <<97Dec11.144313cst.26883@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael- Actually we do go to see our paying public...our dealers. They are the men and women who have thousands of choices to make...which brand,model,color, etc. of gear they will stock in their stores to show to the end-users. We need the convention to show our products, work out promotions, get feedback from music store personnel and build relationships between our business partners. The presence of the general public is often a distraction and a hindrance to doing business, which is the reason all of us manufacturers paid for the space, the hotel rooms, the (so-called) food in the first place. It is not the fabulous party that some "NAMM Show Roundup" articles would have you believe. I think it would be wonderful if we (the manufacturers) would all participate in a consumers-only show. It would certainly create interest in those products that many stores choose not to stock, and some of the smaller companies (like Oberheim) could benefit greatly. Some of the more cutting-edge retailers like Gand Music in Illinois have their own "post-NAMM" show at which they report back to their customers what they sawand heard. Maybe you can lobby your favorite retailer to do the same...? Tom At 03:51 PM 12/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >At 11:17 AM 12/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >>NAMM is not open the public, actually. (Frankfurt musik messe is on two >>days, and boy does it suck.) > >Why? Because it demands that manufacturers come face to face with the >paying public, rather than have a big holiday with rock stars and, er, >people with silicone? > >Sorry. Stupid question. > >:) > >Michael > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:50:48 -0800 From: Andre LaFosse < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: N.A.M.M show Message-ID: <<34905228.1BC@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D. wrote: > > At 11:17 AM 12/11/97 -0800, you wrote: > >NAMM is not open the public, actually. (Frankfurt musik messe is on two > >days, and boy does it suck.) > > Why? Because it demands that manufacturers come face to face with the > paying public, rather than have a big holiday with rock stars and, er, > people with silicone? I understand that one reason NAMM has never had a public day is that a lot of manufacturers don't want the general public to know what price they're selling their products to retailers for, as that would conceivably undermine the position of said retailers in a real-life sales situation. THere's also the sheer audience issue. The show there on the weekend days is a bit of a mess, with all the people milling about. I can't easily imagine how they'd be able to regulate a way of maintaining any sort of order if they sold tickets to the thing to the general populace. On the other hand, a lot of genuinely informed and interested musicians wind up getting shafted becuase they don't have the right connections, so it's a problem for those of us at the bottom of the proverbial totem pole. I was abole to go last year (thanks to the very kind auspices of a fellow LD subscriber -- I won't "out" him for fear of his recieving unsolicited letters requesting entry passes, but thank you once again!) and personally found the whole experience very disturbing. I liken the sensation to that of eating far too much of a really good kind of food -- after a certain point of saturation, the sight of all of that musical gear just got to be a bit sickening for me, especially as it dawned on me that I was surrounded by millions and millions of dollars' worth of musical instruments, and thousands of musicians -- yet the event going on had almost nothing at all to do with music. Somebody once said, "NAMM is something you should go to -- ONCE." I'm inclined to agree. All just products of my increasingly warped perspective, of course. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:53:11 +0000 From: Malhomme Olivier < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Loopers-Delight-d Digest V97 #228 Message-ID: <<34906ED6.41DF@infobiogen.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My system is Aria guitar and Fifth tuned guitar -> Lag spitfire preamp Fernandes Guitar -> VG-8 Stick -> Lag spitfire (melody) -> Peavey Rockmaster (bass side) Fretless guitar ->Peavey Rockmaster (bass side) all preamp out go to Mackie CR1604 (except The Lag out that goes to jamman to vortex to CR1604) effect send 6 from the CR 1604 goes to jamman to vortex to CR 1604 a few reverbs and other effects in the other effect sends.... That is the basic idea OOps I forgot, GR-50 in the CR too. the mackie runs two peavey KB300 for neighbours torturing applications Oliver Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:31:51 -0600 From: Tom Spaulding < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <<97Dec11.153125cst.26882@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" >I understand that one reason NAMM has never had a public day is that a >lot of manufacturers don't want the general public to know what price >they're selling their products to retailers for, as that would >conceivably undermine the position of said retailers in a real-life >sales situation. Hello, Andre! I think you could substitute "all" instead of "a lot" and take the word "conceivably" out of your above statement and you've pretty much nailed it. Of course your Delaer does not want you to know what he paid for the gear. Farmers won't tell me the price they get for milk, Kellogg's is not giving up the price of manufacture of my Corn Flakes, and somehow, even with cash-back bonuses, rebates and special financing, I have a feeling the dealer invoice number I had for my Explorer was not what my dealership paid for it! :) NAMM is a convention for member manufacturers to sell their wares to member retailers...it could just as well be vacuums, TV sets or John Deere combines, but because it happens to involve tools used by musicians to create music, it is ocaasionaly criticized for being exclusionary to the consumer. In fact, it is sometimes characterized as a kind of Callous Cabal of Capitalistic Chuckleheads scheming up ever more devious ways to separate the starving musician from his/her last farthing. What it really is is sore feet. The above all hatched from the soggy depths of my equally warped perspective...! Tom > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:38:25 -0800 From: Mike.Biffle@wj.com (Mike Biffle) To: "Looper's Delight" <, Mike.Biffle@wj.com, Marathon Records/Finley Sound Design < Subject: Re: Looper CD: last call for contributors!!!! Message-ID: <<0005DF45.1264@wj.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Hi Matt... One correction: Mike Biffle is a separate contributor and is listed on the same line as Miguel Barela. This looks like a simple typo, but I thought I'd let you know. Still looping... -Miko ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Looper CD: last call for contributors!!!! Author: Marathon Records/Finley Sound Design < at INTERNET Date: 12/10/97 5:50 PM The Looper's Delight CD project web page has been updated with a list of contributors and volunteers. If you don't see your name on the list and you want to be involved, email me ASAP. http://www.joshuanet.com/marathon/Looper_CD.html Matt ---------------------------------------------------- Matt McCabe Finley Sound Design Marathon Records http://www.joshuanet.com/marathon/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:47:38 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <<12587.199712112147@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom: >Actually we do go to see our paying public...our dealers. They aren't you're paying public, they just tell you they are!! Go direct like Carvin, you know it makes sense! (to us) Incidentally, do Carvin bother attending NAMM? >The presence of the general public is often a distraction and a >hindrance to doing business, which is the reason all of us manufacturers >paid for the space, the hotel rooms, the (so-called) food in the first >place. This just seems a strange mentality. If Lexicon had taken the Vortex to the public themselves, it might have sold better than by trying to encourage Guitar Center to do it for them. And if the message doesn't get through to the PAYING CUSTOMER, the product's shafted anyway. To put it one way, how many distributors are on this list (LD)? Err... none. But they go, and we don't. > Maybe you can lobby your favorite retailer to do the same...? My local retailer would love to fly from Scotland to Anaheim, but it ain't gonna happen.... Andre: > I understand that one reason NAMM has never had a public day is that a > lot of manufacturers don't want the general public to know what price > they're selling their products to retailers for, as that would > conceivably undermine the position of said retailers in a real-life > sales situation. Having seen a producer's price list once, I can understand this. To put it another way, I've seen the US (direct) and UK (dealer) prices for the Cafvin Holdsworth... try $750 vs $2000.... Michael ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:38:49 -0800 From: Kim Flint < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <<2.2.32.19971211223849.00d1a794@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:51 PM 12/11/97, Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D. wrote: >At 11:17 AM 12/11/97 -0800, you wrote: >>NAMM is not open the public, actually. (Frankfurt musik messe is on two >>days, and boy does it suck.) > >Why? Because it demands that manufacturers come face to face with the >paying public, rather than have a big holiday with rock stars and, er, >people with silicone? As I recall from working at Frankfurt, you spend most of the open-to-the-public days completely focused on preventing everything in your booth from getting stolen. We had to keep an eye on every last guitar knob. Not a lot of time left for politely answering the same question for the 900th time, which you're in no mood for by the fifth day of a huge trade show anyway. The nice thing about Frankfurt though, was that people were quite polite about the fact that I was a total moron and could only answer their questions in English. Most of them were then able to gracefully switch from German or whatever to English, making me feel even stupider. But I did very much appreciate that, and I'm sure it doesn't work the other way around in LA. kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:42:09 -0600 From: Tom Spaulding < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <<97Dec11.164143cst.26884@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/enriched >They aren't you're paying public, they just tell you they are!! >Go direct like Carvin, you know it makes sense! (to us) >Incidentally, do Carvin bother attending NAMM? Yes, although I don't know why...probably for the benefit of their international distributors. >>The presence of the general public is often a distraction and a >>hindrance to doing business... > >This just seems a strange mentality. If Lexicon had taken the Vortex to >the public themselves, it might have sold better than by trying to >encourage Guitar Center to do it for them. And if the message doesn't get >through to the PAYING CUSTOMER, the product's shafted anyway. To put it >one way, how many distributors are on this list (LD)? Err... none. But >they go, and we don't. Michael, where are you ever going to hear a Vortex if there are no Dealers? Who is going to check the credit status and invoice and collect from every single consumer that calls up to order direct? What will shipping costs be if every unit is sold and shipped to an individual? Who will repair/service the units? Guitar Center and their fellow retail establishments are exactly the right places to mass market the Vortex (or Boomerang, or Echoplex, or whatever...) because that's where guitar players go to buy gear. Limiting access to only those who can fly to LA or Nashville or Frankfurt to actually hear the unit, or selling it direct over the Internet (25 million users, but how many of them are musicians?) is not the way to launch a product, and would not have saved the Vortex. > >> Maybe you can lobby your favorite retailer to do the same...? > >My local retailer would love to fly from Scotland to Anaheim, but it ain't >gonna happen.... Maybe he/she needs to charge more for their product!!:) > >Andre: >> I understand that one reason NAMM has never had a public day is that a >> lot of manufacturers don't want the general public to know what price >> they're selling their products to retailers for, as that would >> conceivably undermine the position of said retailers in a real-life >> sales situation. > >Having seen a producer's price list once, I can understand this. To put it >another way, I've seen the US (direct) and UK (dealer) prices for the >Cafvin Holdsworth... try $750 vs $2000.... > I can't speak for Carvin, since my background is in retail sales and (now) manufacturing. When talking about US product for sale in the EU, you must include VAT, shipping, tariffs, etc. to the price. Suffice it to say that our margins are fair, as are most dealers prices to you. Remember, until "discouraged rock-n-rollers" who were tired of being charged full Retail Price entered the business in the late '60's and early '70's, everything in a music store was sold at full pop. Very few dealers could exist without discounting these days. I think we are all a bit spoiled at the treasues we are exposed to every day and the incredible prices at which we can obtain them...not so long ago, Oberheim keyboards had a SRP of over $5,000.00! That the future-pointing Vortex was even developed, manufactured, marketed and distributed is a miracle. I don't want to sound like a Pollyanna, and I have digressed a bit, but NAMM is good for what it is intended...If end-users all over the world demanded a Consumer Day, I suspect they would get one... (The opinions expressed by Mr. Spaulding do not necessarily reflect the glare from the top of his head, and are not shared by just anyone) Tom > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:01:06 -0800 From: Kim Flint < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <<2.2.32.19971211230106.00c83164@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:47 PM 12/11/97 GMT, Michael Pycraft Hughes, PhD wrote: >Tom: >>Actually we do go to see our paying public...our dealers. > >They aren't you're paying public, they just tell you they are!! >Go direct like Carvin, you know it makes sense! (to us) >Incidentally, do Carvin bother attending NAMM? yes, they usually have a reasonably large booth. You have to realize that in addition to being sales people and product managers and store owners and whatnot, most of the people there are also musicians with reasonably well paying jobs. >>The presence of the general public is often a distraction and a >>hindrance to doing business, which is the reason all of us manufacturers >>paid for the space, the hotel rooms, the (so-called) food in the first >>place. > >This just seems a strange mentality. If Lexicon had taken the Vortex to >the public themselves, it might have sold better than by trying to >encourage Guitar Center to do it for them. And if the message doesn't get >through to the PAYING CUSTOMER, the product's shafted anyway. To put it >one way, how many distributors are on this list (LD)? Err... none. But >they go, and we don't. That's what marketing campaigns in magazines and in store clinics and displays are for. At a tradeshow it's like this: An important dealer comes up. He's busy, got a lot to do that day, you spend 5-10 minutes discussing the products in the booth with him. He knods, says, "I'll buy 50 of those, 100 of those, let's do the order now." Papers signed, he's gone. Then along comes some 22 year old who probably works in a shoe store. He asks detailed questions for an hour and a half, plays all the gear badly while others are waiting, and eventually wanders away and probably never buys anything at all. As you might imagine, the manufacturer (who really does want his business) would much prefer that said 22 year old explored the product and asked questions at his local dealer rather than consume far more valuable space and time at the trade show booth. That's not always the case with every manufacturer. The really small guys will eagerly talk to anybody. They need all the exposure they can get, probably don't have any sort of dealer network set up, and probably haven't been to enough shows to get the hang of separating the important people from the rest of the crowd. Some big manufacturers are good too...Roland for example, has their booth set up with a big stage and lots of demo booths around with headphones. They probably do all the business deals in hotel suites. Even there though, it's mostly look-and-don't-touch for the new stuff. kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:13:39 -0500 From: "Pete Gilbert" < To: < Subject: Re: Who's going to NAMM? Message-ID: <<0c5893816000cc7UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> ----Original Message----- From: Kim Flint < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com < Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 05:31 Subject: Who's going to NAMM? >The NAMM show is coming up again, Jan 29 - Feb 1. Who's going? We had a >little Looper's convention last year. Small but fun! Who wants to do it >again this year? > >kim > my compadres, Wes and Steve, should be there playing Sticks and Zendrum and looping at the Zendrum booth (at least, I think that Wes will be taking his jamman). If you get a chance, stop by and say hi. My schedule won't let me make it to the left coast. pete gilbert --------------------------------