------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: Re: music just for musicians? [ neato@pipeline.com ] Re: JamMan upgrades [ Ed Drake ] new profiles up.... [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ] Re: Jman upgrades [ dellaia@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Steve/Ang ] Re: music just for musicians? [ PMimlitsch@aol.com ] Re: music just for musicians? [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hu ] Re: music just for musicians? [ Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.C ] Re: music just for musicians? [ neato@pipeline.com ] Re: populate a species. [ Tara Key ] Re: Starting again [ Paolo Valladolid ] Re: music just for musicians? [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hu ] Re: music just for musicians? [ Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.C ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:50:43 -0500 From: neato@pipeline.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ghogan@lexicon.com wrote: >We have sold around 8000 JAMMEN as opposed to maybe 5000 each of the M300 >and M480L. Low end products require a lower margin(earned dollars) then >higher end products thus a higher volume is required for a product to be >deemed successful. neato says: there is however a big difference...reverb processing machines are a known entity...the jamman was basically a new concept all together...it takes time to promote an entirely new idea...the problem is the original jamman is/was already obsolete...perhaps lexicon is just not the company to break them (as their strength was never really catering to a low end market)...a bigger better (ie more expensive) jamman perhaps...but a low(er) cost looper might have to fall into the hands of alesis,peavey or digitech..or maybe even as a piece of computer software cheers all my mistakes were once acts of genius neato@pipeline com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:35:19 -0400 From: Ed Drake To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan upgrades Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Earlier this week Greg Hogan said this about Stew's post: >Stew Benedict asked:"Does anyone have the exact spec (generic part number - >whatever) for the Jamman "zip" memory?" > >The answer is 1Mega Byte x 4 bits at100 nanoseconds or faster 20 pin zip >style DRAM, quantity 4. > >Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I >can do for you. > >Best regards, > >Greg Hogan >Lexicon Customer Service >Phone 617-280-0372 >FAX 617-280-0499 >email: ghogan@lexicon.com I found these manufacturer names and numbers for the chips in the Jam Manual on page 22. I don't think they have been posted before so here goes. Hope it helps. Motorola MCM54400AZ Hitachi HM514400AZP NEC D424400V Fujitsu MB814400 Mitsubishi M5M44400L Micron MT4C4001JZ I got mine from Chips for Less at 1-800-820-6009. I think they charge about $110 nowadays. Just say you want the RAM for the Jam Man and they'll know exactly what you are looking for. According to others on the list you can probably get it cheaper if you look around, but if you are having trouble finding it, they do have it. Also since there have been some new folks subscribing to the list and others talking about buying up the cheap Jam Man units that are still out there, I thought it might be good to repeat some info regarding proposed software and hardware upgrades to the Jam Man that I heard about. Back on January 3,1997 I spoke to Bob Sellon at Lexicon. Here's what I posted to the list: >I just called and spoke with Bob for several minutes about some of this >stuff and he said a couple of things: > > He is currently working on some JamMan mods. Lexicon is interested in >licensing the software to Bob and another fellow to make some upgrades >which include hearing multiple loops simultaneously, more odd time >signature MIDI clock support,and some other tweaks which I can't recall >now. The other proposed mod would be hardware including more memory for >longer delay times and yes --STEREO INS AND OUTS. > > I told him about our list and he said for anyone interested in these >JamMan tweaks to email him at so he can see how much >interest and support is there for these mods and also to keep us posted on >their progress I have not heard from Bob since so I don't know anything new, but if you haven't emailed him yet please do so. I also gave Bob our email address and told him to post directly to the list if there is any news. Later Ed ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 01:11:42 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: new profiles up.... Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Since the last time I uploaded a new version of the Profiles page on the Looper's Delight site, Michael has sent me not one, not two, but *THREE* new versions. They've been collecting dust in my Looper's to-do folder, while I was off galavanting about the namm show and spending any other spare moments trying to brighten the future of certain loop tools. Oh, and there's that day job... I just uploaded Version 12, so if you've been eagerly awaiting your public presence in the loopdirectory, you may now breath easy, you are available for the world to inspect. For all of you not represented on the profile page, What the heck are you waiting for? You couldn't possibly be busier than me, and even I manage to get this stuff done once in a while. Do this right now: Check the profile page to see what personal specs people have on there, at: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/profiles/Profiles.html Type up similar specs about yourself. Send it to the ever-efficient Michael Peters for inclusion in the Looper's Delight profile page, at Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM>. Michael will add you to the page, send it to me, and in a matter of just 3-4 months, I will get my act together and upload it to the site. (well it doesn't usually take that long...:-p) Now I'm going to think about updating the archive section...... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 07:22:49 -0500 (EST) From: dellaia@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU (Steve/Angel Ball) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.COM Subject: Re: Jman upgrades Message-id: <01IEW6AJSE0EIVGZYQ@UCBEH.SAN.UC.EDU> Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >PMimlitsch@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 1/27/97 9:36:39 PM, Trevor (concerning the Jamman) wrote: >> >> <> >> >> They're readily aveilable through any local electronics store or wharehouse >> .DON"T go through a music store --mail order or otherwise--you'll get >> ripped.--Paul > > >Thanks, man. Do you have any favorites? Anyone? > >I would say that maybe we should put some of this info on the page, but >considering that I doubt there will many non-upgraded JamPeople in this >group. I have seen these questions before, but I never seem to catch >the answers. > > >Trev > I've ordered additional SIMMS for upgrading the EchoPlex DP memory. A friendly bloke at Bananas at Large directed me to an outfit called The Chip Merchant, located, I believe, in CA for the purchase. The phone number is 800-426-6375. I believe they also have a web site at www.thechipmerchant.com (although I haven't visited the site). Hope this helps. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 07:41:43 -0500 (EST) From: PMimlitsch@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-ID: <970201074142_41016386@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 1/30/97 2:26:55 PM, Mickey wrote: <> Isn't it when, even for small slots of time, we are able to detach ourselves that the best stuff happens? As far as responsibility goes -- to whom? 8-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:50:51 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: <16456.199702011250@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greg: >>We have sold around 8000 JAMMEN as opposed to maybe 5000 each of the M300 >>and M480L. I am utterly amazed. Utterly. neato says: >there is however a big difference...reverb processing machines are a known >entity...the jamman was basically a new concept all together...it takes >time to promote an entirely new idea... But it wasn't. It could have been pushed as the replacement EH16sec delay. Robert Fripp should have been photographed with it as soon as it came out, rather than waiting years till Obie produced a similar product. The one thing that seems to win lower market share is major artist support, something that wasn't even attempted until very late in the campaign (and then, with the exception of DT, hardly major artists. Yes, mark Isham is huge, but does Joe Average Guitarist care? The names were, I suspect, too highbrow - again, with the exception of the widely-known DT). Where were Chet Atkins or Warren Cuccurelo, both of whom went as far as to name album tracks after the machine??? >perhaps lexicon is just not the company to break >them (as their strength was never really catering to a low end market) I think Lexicon produced marvellous tools that the great unwashed don't understand. Give Joe Average Guitarist an M300 and a Quadraverb and ask him if one is _worth_ 10xc the other - but this is fine since he;s not the target market. But show him a Vortex and a Midiverb and he'll take the latter - it has MIDI and many more preset locations (and costs slightly less). The JM and Vortex were tools for the "serious" user, part of larger systems but given "beginner" prices. So they assumed they _were_ beginner boxes, and continued to lust after 2290s etc. Now with the MPX Lex should be onto a real winner - it _looks_ serious and is percieved as an effects powerhouse. It might be Son of Vortex and Reflex With Other Bits, but it looks like something people expect from Lexicon. The "baby" range will be looked back on like the Gibson MIII; great guitars, but not what conservative guitarists expect a Gibson to look like. (rant mode off again) Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: 01 Feb 97 10:43:18 EST From: Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-ID: <970201154318_74074.1316_GHQ40-1@CompuServe.COM> Michael has some interesting perspectives on Lex's ad campaign for the JamMan, and I think I can answer some of his ranting: >Sure. However, I think (I really honestly hope I'm not stepping of your >toes, or Greg's, on this one) that Lex gave the impression of really not >knowing how to approach the low end of the market. The "32 secundos" ad >with zany graphics seemed so full of hype that it looked as if there was >something to hide. Interestingly enough, that ad campaign was by far the most sucessful campaign the company ever ran in terms of response. We received more phone calls and reader response cards for them than any other two lex ads combined. What's more, one of the magazines opened up their reader response numbers to me (this debate raged around lexland for some time) and the Lex ads were getting 50% more responses than any other processors during the same time period. Now this didn't translate into sales, obviously, but it does tell me that they did get people interested. Which is one of the key elements in any ad campaign for any product. >But it wasn't. It could have been pushed as the replacement EH16sec delay. > Robert Fripp should have been photographed with it as soon as it came out, >rather than waiting years till Obie produced a similar product. The one >thing that seems to win lower market share is major artist support, >something that wasn't even attempted until very late in the campaign (and >then, with the exception of DT, hardly major artists. Yes, mark Isham is >huge, but does Joe Average Guitarist care? The names were, I suspect, too >highbrow - again, with the exception of the widely-known DT). Where were >Chet Atkins or Warren Cuccurelo, both of whom went as far as to name album >tracks after the machine??? Actually, Warren *was* in the ad. As for the others, Michael Manring isn't big? He only won "bassist of the year" in Bass plyer magaine that year, and graced the cover of the mag twice in the same calendar year. Isham represents composers and horn players, and Leni Stern is one of only a handful of female guitarists to receive any recognition--and if you look at the Guitar Player 30th anniversary issue, there she is among the "30 players who mattered" offering a looping lesson. Remember, this box is for a wider audience than just guitar players. And also remember--all of these people really *do* use the device. Was the ad too little, too late? Yes, of course, but to me it's amazing that it happened at all! >The JM and Vortex were tools for the "serious" user, part of larger >systems but given "beginner" prices. So they assumed they _were_ beginner >boxes, and continued to lust after 2290s etc. So, if Lex put a $1500 price tag on 'em they'd have sold? Please! They didn't sell at all untill the price dropped to $199. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:40:56 -0500 From: neato@pipeline.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >neato says: >>there is however a big difference...reverb processing machines are a known >From kflint Sun Feb 2 15:46:31 1997 From: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com Subject: Loopers-Delight-d Digest V97 #23 X-Loop: Loopers-Delight-d@annihilist.com X-Mailing-List: archive/volume97/23 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Loopers-Delight-d@annihilist.com Reply-To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Sender: SmartList Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:46:29 -0800 >>entity...the jamman was basically a new concept all together...it takes >>time to promote an entirely new idea... >Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes wrote: >But it wasn't. It could have been pushed as the replacement EH16sec delay. > Robert Fripp should have been photographed with it as soon as it came out, >rather than waiting years till Obie produced a similar product. neato says: i wouldnt exactly call the jamman a replacement of the eh16...wasn't there a gap of about 15 years between the two!...and besides the eh 16 came relatively late in the electro harmonix story...mike matthews folded it up not much later...it didnt make much of a dent....it was also a pedal ( and geared like all eh products towards guitarists only) as opposed to a rackmount which has studio implications -my point still being that although the figures show a limited sales figure for a lower priced item(jamman) as compared to the cream of the lexicon line at much higher prices, it can almost be expected due to the publics basic unfamiliarity with loops and loopers in general...the two simply cannot be compared -another solution would be a multi-fx box that offers looping as one of it's features...but not as an abbreviated afterthought, but rather as a well thought out totally intergrated feature that expands on past editions -finally as regards this $199 blow out price...that has people saying nobody wanted one until the price was cut to this level...there is another factor besides just sale price (and whats wrong with that anyway? the unit is no longer cutting edge and should have been updated long ago) that comes into play...and that is availibility...this is literally the last chance for a looper for many intereted folk who can't afford the higher priced echoplex...the rush is not only about price but availibility! cheers all my mistakes were once acts of genius neato@pipeline com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:39:56 -0500 (EST) From: Tara Key To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: populate a species. Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII correction...there is a (at least) woman on the list...lurking in the oberheim echoplex/vortex looping wild....hi boys! Tara Key Antietam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:54:49 -0800 (PST) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Starting again Message-Id: <199702020054.QAA00169@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > T.W. Hartnett wrote: > > > > >Well, I have a day job. My livelihood does not depend on making music. > > >There is no other driving force for me to make music other than > > >the passion for doing so. Wrong, Trev. _I_ wrote the above paragraph. > > Actually, I think having a day job afforts the ultimate in artistic > freedom, if you care about these thing. I don't need other people to > like my work- all I have to do is like it. No record contract worries, > don't have the get multiple piercings, whatever. ^_^ TW actually thinks of his relationship with music as being a marriage; has its ups and downs. My personal relationship with music is not that way at all. Does that make me less "legitimate" a musician? Guys like TW might argue that we who must put in 40 hours a week doing something other than music are sacrificing time that could have been spent just making music. On the other hand, consider, like Trev says about, that we don't have to play the music business game. Unless you are already very rich and need not worry about income, you have to play the music business game if you don't have a fulltime job doing something other than music. Let's not forget there is no right or wrong here. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 18:29:19 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:50 PM 1/31/97, neato@pipeline.com wrote: >ghogan@lexicon.com wrote: > >>We have sold around 8000 JAMMEN as opposed to maybe 5000 each of the M300 >>and M480L. Low end products require a lower margin(earned dollars) then >>higher end products thus a higher volume is required for a product to be >>deemed successful. > >neato says: >there is however a big difference...reverb processing machines are a known >entity...the jamman was basically a new concept all together...it takes >time to promote an entirely new idea...the problem is the original jamman >is/was already obsolete...perhaps lexicon is just not the company to break >them (as their strength was never really catering to a low end market)...a >bigger better (ie more expensive) jamman perhaps...but a low(er) cost >looper might have to fall into the hands of alesis,peavey or digitech..or >maybe even as a piece of computer software I think neato has made some good observations here. Looping needed time to catch on, and Lexicon didn't have the patience to wait for it. It is a new concept for most people, and they needed to hear others using it before they "got" it. That is only just beginning to happen. Now you see Guitar Player mentioning looping in nearly every issue, and loop based music of various sorts is beginning to dominate most forms of popular music. I think that has everything to do with demand going up for such devices. In fact, this always happens with new musical instrument products, and maybe Lexicon was a bit naive or too inexperienced with the MI market to realize that. It's NOT the same as pro-audio, that's for sure. But I have another observation. How is it that Lexicon could consider 8000 units sold over a three year period a failure? That's not a small number for a music industry product. Is the problem maybe one of internal organization and manufacturing practices? Several times I've heard Jon refer to "warehouses full of Jammen/vortex" which were soaking up lots of cash in inventory. Sounds like poor sales forcasting, for one thing. But more importantly, why did you make them all at once? Just about the whole manufacturing world uses just-in-time manufacturing processes. It worked for Toyota and the rest of Japan, it worked for GM, it works for the whole computer industry, it even works for lowly little Oberheim. Did you guys miss that seminar series or what? Oberheim has been selling the low cost Matrix-1000 synthesizer for something like 10 years. They sell 50-100 a month. Sometimes less, sometimes more. The manufacturing is contracted out to a manufacturing house with a great deal of expertise in jit manufacturing. The parts come through distributors set up for delivering to jit processes. This all allows for volume pricing distributed over time. Oberheim has matrix-1000's made according to how many orders there are at a given time. They pay for that many and make a profit on each one. The overhead for Oberheim is very low. They can probably continue making this synth for years with little change in the profit picture. No warehouses. No big cash outlays. How come Lexicon doesn't do that? Remember, electric guitars didn't see these kinds of numbers in their early years of production, as I've mentioned before. Neither did synthesizers or any other new type of instrument I can think of. I don't think 8000 Les Pauls were sold in the first 3 years of production. I don't know the numbers for Fender and Rickenbacher, but I doubt they were seeing real big numbers with their early electric guitars either. I don't think any of those companies are sorry they kept at it. I'm sure not, otherwise I'd be playing clarinet. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 01:02:31 -0700 From: Shelley To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: populate a species. Message-ID: <32F44A17.1240@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tara - When are you guys leaving Hoboken for the wilds of san francisco - sigh - I want to hear your catar-walls of sound!@ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:58:54 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: <28578.199702021058@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Michael has some interesting perspectives on Lex's ad campaign for the JamMan, That's the politest way I've heard for saying "he talks a load of tripe" :) >Interestingly enough, that ad campaign was by far the most sucessful campaign >the company ever ran in terms of response. We received more phone calls and >reader response cards for them than any other two lex ads combined. What's >>more, >one of the magazines opened up their reader response numbers to me (this debate >raged around lexland for some time) and the Lex ads were getting 50% more >responses than any other processors during the same time period. Now this >didn't >translate into sales, obviously, but it does tell me that they did get people >interested. Which is one of the key elements in any ad campaign for any >>product. Then why did no-one buy it? Was it under-specced, or what? >>Where were >>Chet Atkins or Warren Cuccurelo, both of whom went as far as to name album >>tracks after the machine??? > >Actually, Warren *was* in the ad. "These thing make music!" - yes, I remember now. Sorry. >As for the others, Michael Manring isn't big? >He only won "bassist of the year" in Bass plyer magaine that year, and graced >the cover of the mag twice in the same calendar year. Isham represents >>composers >and horn players, and Leni Stern is one of only a handful of female guitarists >to receive any recognition--and if you look at the Guitar Player 30th >anniversary issue, there she is among the >"30 players who mattered" offering a looping lesson. Yes, but bearing in mind that the average joe does tend to act like a sheep rather than learn by example, you need to get people who are in said musician's CD collections, and Leni Stern quite honestly isn't. I'm probably at a disadvantage here because I'm in the UK and probably aren't exposed to people like Manring, of whom I'd never heard before the ad. But in terms of artist association Peavey's new J. ad for the Tubefex will probably do far more for sales. Hell, that ad could've been for the Vortex. > Remember, this box is for a wider audience than just guitar players. But guitar players really don't care. Well, most don't. >And also remember--all of these people really *do* use the device. Was the ad >>too little, too late? Yes, of course, but to me it's amazing that it happened >>at all! >>The JM and Vortex were tools for the "serious" user, part of larger >>systems but given "beginner" prices. So they assumed they _were_ beginner >>boxes, and continued to lust after 2290s etc. >So, if Lex put a $1500 price tag on 'em they'd have sold? Please! They didn't >sell at all untill the price dropped to $199. No word yet on the discontinuation on the $1000 plex.... ;) Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: 02 Feb 97 13:07:14 EST From: Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-ID: <970202180714_74074.1316_GHQ62-1@CompuServe.COM> Michael writes: >That's the politest way I've heard for saying "he talks a load of tripe" :) I'm nothing, if not polite! Seriously, this is by no means the first time your arguments have been raised. I just think it's well worth pointing out some of the things that you don't know so that you can be more informed about the full scope of this debate. >Yes, but bearing in mind that the average joe does tend to act like a sheep >rather than learn by example, you need to get people who are in said >musician's CD collections, and Leni Stern quite honestly isn't. I'm >probably at a disadvantage here because I'm in the UK and probably aren't >exposed to people like Manring, of whom I'd never heard before the ad. But >in terms of artist association Peavey's new J. ad for the Tubefex will >probably do far more for sales. Hell, that ad could've been for the >Vortex. Sorry you're not familiar with Manring. He's a real monster, and a heck of a nice guy as well. As for Ms. Stern, besides the "female" aspect of including her in the ad, there's this tiny market here in the states called New York, wherin Leni is indeed something of a musician's musician.On any given Sunday night you can run into a host of NY who's whos haning around the 55 dive. While the general public isn't so familiar with her, it's astounding how many of the players are hip to what she's doing. Just as an example, the entire current line-up of the Brecker Brothers band is comprised of her former band mates. And they're all using the JamMan. Ask Michael Brecker how many people in NY are following her, and he'll tell you that everyone who's playuing owes something to her. There are a bunch of high profile session players who are always asking her what to buy. I know, 'cause they all called me. I know, it's just New York, but if you gotta start somewhere... >> Remember, this box is for a wider audience than just guitar players. >But guitar players really don't care. Well, most don't. I dunno. If this list is any indicator, it seems like the creative types who are likely to use such a product really do care about other artists besides guitarists. Besides, the ad wasn't only placed in Guitar Player. Guitarists are the largest potential market, but not the only one. >Then why did no-one buy it? Was it under-specced, or what? This is, of course, the crux of the biscuit. The answer is (IMO) that the market for such a product isn't that big to begin with. It will grow over time, but for right now I just don't see big moneys to be made in a looping-only device. In a well-thought-out multi effector? Yeah, absolutely. Kim further chimed in with >Sounds like poor sales forcasting, for one thing. But >more importantly, why did you make them all at once? Just about the whole >manufacturing world uses just-in-time manufacturing processes. It worked >for Toyota and the rest of Japan, it worked for GM, it works for the whole >computer industry, it even works for lowly little Oberheim. Did you guys >miss that seminar series or what? You don't ever want to sit in meetings with the brass at Lexland, Kim! It's a scary sight. --------------------------------