------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 231 Today's Topics: Re: bluegrass looping [ Kim Flint ] Korg DL8000 [ David Kirkdorffer ] Re: N.A.M.M show, GEAR prices !!! [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] Re: N.A.M.M show, GEAR prices !!! [ Kim Flint ] Re: [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Do you replace parts of loops? [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: Korg DL8000 [ Dpcoffin ] Re: [ mark sottilaro [ Jeff Schwartz To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: bluegrass looping Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971212215407.00a07034@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:31 PM 12/12/97 -0500, George Henry wrote: >At 09:49 AM 12/12/97 EST, ANET wrote: >Bela, Sam, Edgar, Mark, and Jerry are probably all progressive and >experimental enough to introduce looping to bluegrass. I just don't know if >bluegrass audiences are ready for it.... > >George Henry >------------ I don't know about audiences, but in my days of demoing echoplexes I had quite a few bluegrass players express a lot of interest. I'm not remarkably familiar with bluegrass myself, but it seems that the music does make frequent use of repeating motifs that might work great with looping. And then there's Chet Atkins and Phil Keaggy (do they qualify as bluegrass? I don't even know), who have both made use of looping in their music. anybody know other examples? Any bluegrass players here who can comment? kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:10:32 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Korg DL8000 Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F410A96@mail.exapps.com> Content-Type: text/plain If anyone going to NAMM can check out the new Korg 10-second Votex/Looper hybrid DL8000 - I'd love to hear what it's like... David Kirkdorffer UNDO -----Original Message----- From: Kim Flint [SMTP:kflint@chromatic.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 8:37 PM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Who's going to NAMM? ok, right, this was the original question, before we got sidetracked into general bashing of the show itself. So who wants to do a looper get-together at the show? I know damn well some of you are going. :-) kim At 07:13 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Pete Gilbert wrote: >----Original Message----- >From: Kim Flint >To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >Date: Thursday, December 11, 1997 05:31 >Subject: Who's going to NAMM? > > >>The NAMM show is coming up again, Jan 29 - Feb 1. Who's going? We had a >>little Looper's convention last year. Small but fun! Who wants to do it >>again this year? >> >>kim >> > >my compadres, Wes and Steve, should be there playing Sticks and Zendrum >and looping at the Zendrum booth (at least, I think that Wes will be taking >his >jamman). If you get a chance, stop by and say hi. My schedule won't let me >make >it to the left coast. > >pete gilbert > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:41:01 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: FYI -- Fripp -- Boston -- Dec 16 -- House of Blues Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F410A99@mail.exapps.com> Content-Type: text/plain FYI Fripp -- Boston -- Dec 16 -- House of Blues I advise checking in as soon as the doors open. That's when he's liable to start - if not earlier - regardless of stated show time. Tix are $15 Not well publicized. But, if you're in the arae... Woooooosshhh! David Kirkdorffer UNDO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:49:46 -0500 From: stevens@ebtech.net (Jane/Mike Stevens) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: bluegrass looping Message-Id: <199712122349.SAA04060@sleepy.ebtech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hi folks, this is my first posting to the list although I have been lurking for a yr or so.My name is Mike Stevens I play bluegrass for a living with Jim and Jesse.I am a harmonica player wich is a nontraditional instr for bluegrass ,but I have made some inroads with it.Anyhow I have been looping for several years and recently recieved a grant from the Canadian Arts Council to do a experimental recording that has some solo looping on it. Bluegrass and looping is a great concept but the traditional audiences would freak out ,there are shows I work that wont even allow an electric bass on stage [pretty wierd] I would just like to say thanks to everyone for the many things I have learned on this list. Mike > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:55:42 -0500 From: David Kirkdorffer To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: *NO FLASH PHOTO's* -- Fripp -- Boston -- Dec 16 -- House of Blues Message-ID: <30C4F9E5EBE1D0118B760000C0DD100F410A9B@mail.exapps.com> Content-Type: text/plain Oh yes - Without defending or justifying it -- reports are that at recent Crimson off-shoot shows for ProjeKt One - FLASH PHOTO's have caused great upset to the Fripp-most. He has stopped playing - or talking when a FLASH goes off. So, PLEASE - **NO FLASH PHOTO'S** - or he may stop. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop... David Kirkdorffer UNDO -----Original Message----- From: David Kirkdorffer Sent: Friday, December 12, 1997 6:41 PM To: 'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com' Subject: FYI -- Fripp -- Boston -- Dec 16 -- House of Blues Importance: High FYI Fripp -- Boston -- Dec 16 -- House of Blues I advise checking in as soon as the doors open. That's when he's liable to start - if not earlier - regardless of stated show time. Tix are $15 Not well publicized. But, if you're in the arae... Woooooosshhh! David Kirkdorffer UNDO ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:01:22 -0600 From: Tom Spaulding To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: bluegrass looping Message-Id: <97Dec12.180052cst.26893@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Welcome Mike- I recommend everyone buy a Jim and Jesse album for the simple reason that you probably have nothing like it in your collection and they are the real thing. No loops, just soul. Just a shameless plug for my pals at the Original Acoustic Instrument Division of Gibson AKA Bluegrass Division: We are opening a manufacturing plant/museum/restaurant early next year here in Nashville. I encourage all Bluegrass fans to stop by and slap a tongue around some grits and greens and ogle somehistorical Gibson acoustic instruments. Y'all come!! Tom At 05:49 PM 12/12/97 -0600, you wrote: > >>Hi folks, this is my first posting to the list although I have been >lurking for a yr or so.My name is Mike Stevens I play bluegrass for a living >with Jim and Jesse.I am a harmonica player wich is a nontraditional instr >for bluegrass ,but I have made some inroads with it.Anyhow I have been >looping for several years and recently recieved a grant from the Canadian >Arts Council to do a experimental recording that has some solo looping on >it. Bluegrass and looping is a great concept but the traditional audiences >would freak out ,there are shows I work that wont even allow an electric >bass on stage [pretty wierd] I would just like to say thanks to everyone for >the many things I have learned on this list. > Mike >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 10:49:48 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: N.A.M.M show, GEAR prices !!! Message-Id: <199712121650.IAA05886@scv2.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Yet musical gear, effects processors, many synths, tuners, etc all cost AS >MUCH, sometimes MORE than they did years ago. Of course - many exceptions >to the rule.... but in general, c'mon!!!! why do the people that support , >yes, a smaller industry, hav to keep paying while the production costs go >down for all these manufacturers??? is it just supply & demand ?? why does >a BOSS TU12 tuner cost like $60-80 , just the same that it did 10 years >ago??? Or most rackmount effects???again, there are lots of bargains out >there, but, as anyone who has looked thru a blue book can see, musicians, >who can sometimes least afford it, shoulder an odd set of pricing >structures/strictures. But $60-80 is less now than it was 10 years ago, and $600 buys you a lot more processing now then it did then. I think the SPX-90 went for more than $600, and there's no comparison between it and, say, and Intellifex. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:39:24 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re:N.A.M.M show Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971213043924.00a26290@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:10 AM 12/12/97, Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D. wrote: >>Who is going to check the credit status and invoice and collect from every >>single consumer that calls up to order direct? What will shipping costs be >if >every unit is sold and shipped to an individual? Who will >repair/service the >units? > >Well, Musician's Friend manage it, and make a profit into the bargain... >...remove the middleman, take out that profit margin, help starving >musicians... ;) well, Musician's Friend is a middle man, right? Besides, I never thought their prices were that great, so their profit margin must be larger? or did you mean Carvin? >>Guitar Center and their fellow retail establishments are exactly the right >>places to mass market the Vortex (or Boomerang, or Echoplex, or >whatever...) >because that's where guitar players go to buy gear. > >OK, in the US I guess. Fair enough, point taken. You don't have Guitar Center there, yet? You poor guy. ;-) >I suppose I feel it's strange because the European fairs, principally >Frankfurt but with smaller ones in the UK and I presume other countries, >have public days. One thing this allows is for the public to try kit which >is pretty obscure, and unlikely to appear in your next-door store. Like >custom manufacturers - f.e. allowing people to try a Klein without spending >$2000!!! At the public days in Frankfurt, I'm relatively sure that Lorenzo doesn't let many people touch the Kleins. It really is a madhouse. >Kim: >>That's what marketing campaigns in magazines and in store clinics and >>displays are for. > >Sigh... store clinics with famous people. I've heard about them... >Here it's The Marshall Roadshow - with Phil Hilbourne! Who? Exactly. What? you can't get Oasis to stop by? >>At a tradeshow it's like this: An important dealer comes >>up. He's busy, got a lot to do that day, you spend 5-10 minutes discussing >>the products in the booth with him. He knods, says, "I'll buy 50 of those, >>100 of those, let's do the order now." Papers signed, he's gone. > >Is this really not possible over the phone? If they spend so little time >with the gear and can't touch it anyway, why bother getting them together? It's the free liquor and big parties with famous people. You get a lot more sales that way, and its not the same over the phone. kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:48:49 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: N.A.M.M show, GEAR prices !!! Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971213044849.0089c44c@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Andre Cholmodeley wrote: having had the the mind jarring experience of designing products for the music industry and then switching to designing products for the PC industry, I guess I can answer this one..... >here's my .02cents....regar0ding the issue of gear prices... > >How come in the last, say 20 years (or 30, etc) computer chips, electronic >components, micro-wiring and soldering technology and technique, plastic, >have all been greatly improved in quality and been slashed in price. > >Every consumer iterm that involves these components has become drastically, >amazingly cheaper, yet vasly higher in quality, than 20 or 30 years back - >clock radios, cassette decks, walkmans, VCRs, computers like the ones we're >all on right now, etc. The key difference between the products you've listed and music industry products is volume. As an example, Compaq computer sells well over 1 million PCs a month. In 8 hours they will sell more PCs than than the total combined looper sales of Lexicon and Oberheim ever. Before the end of the week they will have eclipsed the yearly sales of the entire effects processor segment of the music industry. By the end of the month their sales would have exceeded the yearly sales of the entire music industry. There is a very dramatic difference in pricing at every single production step when you are dealing with million piece pricing, as the PC and consumer electronics industry does, and 100-1000 piece pricing like you would in the music industry. Your manufacturing costs alone can easily change by a factor of 5 or more. And for a lot of the manufacturing techniques you've listed, the vendors won't even talk to you unless you're doing very large volumes. They have huge capital investments in the manufacturing equipment and are not interested in dealing with small players. When you do use those technologies at low volumes, they are not at all cheap because the up-front charge will be quite high. With large volumes, you have access to manufacturing capacity anywhere in the world. Products I design now are being built and sold by a number of large south-east Asian computer and peripheral companies. They get amazingly low manufacturing costs, presumably by using manufacturing vendors in the asian backwaters, using prison labor or slaves or whatever they do. Vendors like that don't work with you unless you can guarantee huge volumes, which the music industry can't come close to. There is also a huge difference in quality. Music Industry manufacturers will generally try to use good quality components, and circuit designs that emphasize quality over cost. The PC and consumer electronics industries are the other way around. They don't care if the sound quality sucks. They use the cheapest jacks, the cheapest capacitors, the cheapest opamps, cheapes ADC/DAC's, cheapest everything. Cost is *ALL* that matters. This is usually appalling to the audio engineer in me, but the reality is that they get away with selling poor quality garbage to people because at the right price people can be convinced to buy it. Those of us who do care just try to do the best designs we can within those constraints, and lobby Microsoft to make the audio requirements for windows logoing more strict. Regardless, the directive in high volume consumer products is always to achieve the minimum quality you can get away with at the lowest cost. That's usually not the point with music gear! And then there's the overhead of running a manufacturing company. If you are only going to sell a few thousand units a year, you need to make quite a bit of money on each one just to pay phone bills, rent, salaries, etc. You can't exist on 5% margins like companies selling 20 million units a year. So the price is going to be higher. Basically, it's not appropriate to compare products oriented towards a small niche market with products mass marketed to general consumers. Music industry products are basically professional/industrial equipment, more closely related to professional video or camera gear, or medical instruments, or factory control systems or whatever. The relationship to things like walkmans and clock radios pretty much ends after "they both make sound." >Yet musical gear, effects processors, many synths, tuners, etc all cost AS >MUCH, sometimes MORE than they did years ago. Of course - many exceptions >to the rule.... but in general, c'mon!!!! why do the people that support , >yes, a smaller industry, hav to keep paying while the production costs go >down for all these manufacturers??? is it just supply & demand ?? why does >a BOSS TU12 tuner cost like $60-80 , just the same that it did 10 years >ago??? Or most rackmount effects???again, there are lots of bargains out >there, but, as anyone who has looked thru a blue book can see, musicians, >who can sometimes least afford it, shoulder an odd set of pricing >structures/strictures. That's not really true, actually. Pricing in the music industry works the same as pricing in every other industry. You have well defined price points where products will be introduced. Those prices remain the same from year to year and will not change. What changes is the feature set and quality available at a given price. In the case of rack mount effects, you can easily chart huge changes in any given price point over the past 10-15 years. Try $450. 10 years ago you might have been able to get a unit that just did delay, or just reverb, at fairly low quality, limited features, and very poor digital audio if it had it. 5 years ago you would have gotten something like a quadraverb, with a DSP processor, multiple effects with so-so quality, and better digital audio than before. The same price today gets you a much more powerful DSP processor, many more effects with much better routing capability and better parameter control, and much better quality digital audio. Shit, compare a 1987-era sampler from emu or akai with one produced now. the differences are staggering! As far as your $80 tuner, there are two possibilities. One is that it probably does cost the same to make it as it did 10 years ago. Same old parts, same old price. It's quite likely that their 10 year old design is still cheaper than anything possible with any newer technology for the same level of performance. And secondly, as long as there are people buying it for $80 then that is what it is worth, regardless of the cost to make it. When people stop buying it for that price, or someone makes one just as good for less that takes the market share, Boss will find a way to lower their price. Until then you pay $80. It looks like we'll be stuck with capitalism for the forseeable future, so that's how it works.... And having worked in the industry, I have to laugh at the notion of musicians being poor and starving. Your typical buyer of music gear is either a professional musician, who will be doing just fine if he/she is any good, a hobbyist who has another job paying for his/her hobby, or a kid with well-off parents. The fact of the matter is that all that expensive gear does sell, and it usually sells very well. Nothing made that more clear to me than working at Gibson. People are always moaning about Gibson guitars being overpriced and not worth it, yet somehow Gibson manages to sell a hell of a lot of guitars! They can price custom shop guitar models at $25,000 and sell the entire run before they even start making them! So keep in mind that while a piece of gear might be out of your price range, it's not out of everbody's. Manufacturers are quite aware of that and target products towards buyers with differing quanites of disposable income. Starving musicians usually don't buy gear at any price, so nobody bothers making much for them. hmmm, maybe I should try doing some work today.....:-) kim ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:20:17 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >... Most PA's on the club level are in mono, and soundmen don't want >to be bothered with mic'ing two cabinets. mono? I thought that only existed down here in 3. World? As soon as you use audible reverb, I think stereo is a must. For bands with many members its the only way to make all audible. Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:20:17 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Do you replace parts of loops? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just got fascinated again about the possiblility to replace parts of longer loops while experiencing them. Within over 15 sec of loop you probably like some bit better than the other. The bit you do not like (be it a colour in your "wash" or a single cord in your sequence), you can reduce with feedback or even replace straight away with a Replace function. After listening to the loop enough, you know what you want to change and thus let the whole idea grow. I prefer to use FeedBack for this, because it allows to fade or leave a bit or the old stuff in the background. Used smother it simply creates a dynamic wave of a previously constant sound. Do you all use such tricks? For practicing/creating or as musical expression/composition in a final version? Tell us more! Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:27:18 EST From: Dpcoffin To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Korg DL8000 Message-ID: <6820f146.34921cde@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit <> According to Korg, this should be appearing in stores NOW, altho neither SamAsh nor MF have yet seen it. dpc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:03:16 -0500 From: mark sottilaro To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: <34924143.A7E72043@mailbox.syr.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Matthias Grob wrote: > > > >... Most PA's on the club level are in mono, and soundmen don't want > >to be bothered with mic'ing two cabinets. > > mono? I thought that only existed down here in 3. World? > > As soon as you use audible reverb, I think stereo is a must. > For bands with many members its the only way to make all audible. > > Matthias Got to disagree with you there Matthias. As a professional sound engineer, I will tell you that stereo is definitely NOT what you want in live sound. The reason is that when you do a mix in stereo, you create a "sweet spot" where the sound is correctly balanced between left and right. Everywhere else the mix is wrong. Because the sweet spot is so small (compared to most clubs/auditoriums) only a small number of people, near the sound person, will here what is intended. Most PA cabinets come with horns that disperse the high frequency information (any wave length that's greater than the distance between your ears {bass} is not perceived as stereo) so that everyone can hear a proper balance. -- -- Mark @ �??? IAMNOTHERE c ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 03:40:21 +0000 From: Jeff Schwartz To: msottila@mailbox.syr.edu CC: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Message-ID: <349203A5.160B@bgnet.bgsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark has a very good point (and some other cat posted along the same lines a few days back-how many folks in the crowd can actually percieve a lot of stereo effects?) but at the same time, as I said, there are a bunch of Vortex effects (like 3/7 echoes) which sound way more like music if there are quarter note triplet echoes coming from one place and septuplet echoes coming from another, not to mention the possibilities for panning a lead a la Pete Cosey. I enjoy hearing an unmiked ensemble for many reasons, not least because I can walk around the venue and experience a varied mix/EQ. I think playing stereo can offer a similar experience. I hate hearing a band where they use the PA to overpower the room sound only to replace it with fake ambience. If I use some stadium souding delay, it's to make a point, not because I rely on the illusion that I'm playing in a hockey arena instead of a dive bar in order to sound cool. BTW, after some inquiries at the joint I usually play, it became clear to me that, though most consoles are stereo capable, it is the setup of crossovers and power amps that makes most small clubs mono only. I have no idea if this bit o' info will do anyone any good, but I thought I'd pass it along. Even though there may be matching speaker stacks on each side of the stage, folks are not stereo nor can they be w/o much more hardware. -- Jeff Schwartz jeffs@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~jeffs/main.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 06:24:41 -0500 From: Andre Cholmodeley To: Subject: Re: N.A.M.M show, GEAR prices !!! Message-Id: <199712131135.GAA29321@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kim, points well taken. i knew there was SOME reason for this phenomenon. thanks, eastern andre' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:40:41 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Lambrecht To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: FS: Deltalab ADM 1030 Message-Id: <199712131340.IAA28245@cliff.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I received a post following a query on htis vintage piece FS on the Net: I've blown my toy budget for two years in two months--seems to me someone was looking for a Deltalab piece awhile back--four memorise sound interesting tho only 1 sec loops .. . altho playing around with my newly acquired RDS 8000, it is vey cool to be able to twek short loops with lovely, tactile KNOBS in real time (not to mention chorus, flange etc. Seller wants $ 125 and freight drone on~~~Tom >>Return-Path: >Errors-To: >Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:43:51 -0500 (EST) >X-Sender: chespope@pop.inch.com >To: Tom Lambrecht >From: chespope@inch.com (Chad) >Subject: Re: Deltalab ADM 1030 > >Well it has a little more than a one second delay. and all the >milliseconds in between. there are 7 buttons on the front to get you in >the ballpark of the delay time you need. then fine tune with the dial in >REAL time. The memory locations work in conjunktion with the buttons. >You make yur setup adjust LFO speed and depth etc. hit memory and one of >the 4 memory buttons and it remembers all the parameters but the "ballpark" >button. But its cool to see what the other delay factors sound like this >way. Hit the "ballpark" and your bak in bidniz. It needs a new 9volt for >this though. just unscreew the cover and pop it in. one rack pace , >internal power supply , no dings , studio use only and its BLUE (cool) > >e-mail back any Q's > >---- >Chad > > > > Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net --------------------------------