------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 237 Today's Topics: Re: replacing parts of loops [ Leonardo Cavallo ] Re: PMC-10 [ Kim Flint ] Re: PMC-10 [ "c.voit" ] Jmman sighted [ Tom Lambrecht ] Happy Holidays Everybody! [ Drumworker ] RE: bluegrass looping [ "Hogan, Greg (Exchange)" ] Re: Happy Holidays Everybody! [ "Mikell D. Nelson" ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:31:47 +0100 From: Leonardo Cavallo To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: replacing parts of loops Message-ID: <19971218183146406.AAA178@Default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 20.50 17/12/97 -0800, you wrote: >At 05:48 PM 12/17/97 -0800, Dave Trenkel wrote: >>>This method seems really interesting (i.e. replacing parts with silence and >>>making ad hoc rhythms). I have a Jamman and haven't used replace much. I >>>sometimes add really random things in or play over the loop and hit replace >>>at random, but that only goes so far. I should steal [cough], I mean try, >>>your method. >>> >>>-Jesse >>> >>I do this a lot. Often I will lay down a longish droney texture in punch-in >>loop mode, and then use replace to "drop in" silence and other parts. I >>find that there's a minimum time that I can hit and release the pedal >>twice, about a second, which defines the finest granularity of the rhythms. >>I gather that with the Echoplex, you can assign the pedal to only record >>while the pedal is depressed, which could decrease the minimum punching >>time quite a bit. > >Yes, that's right. You can get extremely short replaces by just lightly >tapping the button. You can get some really interesting textures that way. >Replacing with silence is one of my favorite techniques, too. The holes in >the sound form a rhythm, which is pretty interesting. Another thing I like >to do is build a loop that is one chord, and then tap replace in a rhythmic >way while playing a different chord. You get brief, jarring chord changes >which can be really cool. After you do this for a while, the loop becomes >completely mutilated into a different sort of texture althogether. great fun.... > >kim >________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint 408-752-9284 >Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com >Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com > > - About replacing parts in the loop. On my Jamman I press on and off the replace function very quickly and a lot of times, while playing new phrases, no key related to the old ones, possibly faster in tempo. The result is a fascinating fragmented loop impossible to play in real time. Other techniques? - About sampling. I do a lot of sampling and editing with my PC. SoundForge, Recycle and Cubase VST are my essential tools. If you have to buy a bad sampler, take a good PC for the same price and download some cool prog from the net. I had an old Akai S1000 and its sound was really good, but with problems for memory exansion (dedicated and expensive memory chips). I decided to work with a computer and I can suggest you too this move. Question to sampling experts: is there a way to simulate a midi interface via software? I'd like to let my PC consider sound forge (or some other editing sample prog) as a MIDI device and playing some samples at MIDI command from the program? is it possible? thanks ciao leo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:42:12 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: PMC-10 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971218204212.00cade5c@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You might want to try the Rocktron All Access pedal. It looks to me like the most powerful and rugged pedal out there, although the price is quite a bit higher. ($500?) The people I know who don't pay much attention to the price tag all seem to use the Rocktron. I'm not sure if it does what you're looking for though. BTW Miko, I'm positive I've met you before. You came by g-wiz at some point, right? Do you know Chris Muir? He has a rocktron pedal, if that's helpful. As far as the PMC-10 crashes, I've heard that too but not experienced it. I've also heard that it has a tendency to dump its memory contents every few months. I haven't experienced that either. The guy I bought it from said he got a software upgrade from Digitech that fixed the problems, so you might want to check with them again. The pmc-10 does have sysex dump capability and midi-in, so you can save the memory contents and recover quickly if necessary. A lot of pedals don't do that, which is very annoying considering how much effort you are likely to spend programming them. The worst thing about the PMC-10 to me is the hand-held programming thing, which seems to break very easily. Paul Dresher says the best thing to do is just buy a gross of them from Digitech! Being a hardware geek, my plan is to replace the programmer's poor quality cable and crappy switches with more rugged stuff. Looked pretty simple, really. The versatility and programmability of the pedal far out weigh those inconveniences, IMHO. Isn't the Lex pedal only dedicated for the MXP? I didn't think it was actually a midi pedal, but I could be wrong. Speaking of evaporating memory contents, the other day I turned on a drum machine that I've had for about 7-8 years (an alesis HR-16B). It started up ok, I wacked a drum trigger to see if I had audio, and the drum machine display goes all weird. I turn it off, turn it back on, and all the stuff in memory is gone. Years of sequences programmed and tweaked go poof! Some stuff in there I'd spent months on a few years back and hadn't gotten around to recording. And guess when the last time I backed it up was? ooooops. man was I bummed..... so people say, "well, its good to get a fresh start sometimes..." somehow not quite consoling..... kim At 10:02 AM 12/18/97 -0800, Mike Biffle wrote: > I too use a PMC-10 and have found it to crash sometimes unexpectedly. > More than once I've been recording with others or performing (only > once) and had it dump on me. Ouch!!!! I've had it to Digitech a few > times and they've been very helpful but not completely successful. > It's been quite awhile since I've had a crash... (Fingers crossed). > > That said, I've been hoping to see more sturdy units capable of > assigning multiple controllers to one ex-ped or another. And the > ability to assign each individual controllers midi channel as well. > This gives you the ability to control several midi module real time > controllers with a single pedal. > > Has anyone tried the new Lexicon MXP floor controller? What is it's > architecture like? Is it easy to program? > > Thanks > -Miko > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: PMC-10 >Author: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) at INTERNET >Date: 12/17/97 8:40 PM > > >On 12/17/97 Kim Flint said: > >>The short answer is, no the echoplex can't be usefully controlled by a DMC >>Ground Control. Despite popular opinion among guitar players, the ground >>control is actually a fairly limited midi controller and not able to send >>appropriate midi commands for the echoplex. There are other pedals which >>work great, the web page describes what to look for. My personal >>recommendation is to pick up a used Digitech PMC-10. I got mine for $100, >>and have been quite happy with it. > > > I also picked up an used PMC-10 for $100, about one year ago upon Kim's >reccomendation and I whole heartedly endorse it. I do not use it with an >Echoplex, since I do not own one, but I do use it to control three separate >Jam Men. Currently I've been working with the Expression Pedal part of this >machine to control a Sherman Filterbank. The PMC-10 is deep unit capable >of much more than I'm using it for. Porbably why it did not catch on. > >Patrick > > > *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:07:14 +0100 From: "c.voit" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: PMC-10 Message-ID: <34999082.9A44B63C@vtx.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Being a hardware geek, my plan is to replace >the programmer's poor quality cable and crappy switches with more rugged >stuff. Looked pretty simple, really. Kim If you ever do that please publish the DIY mod in the news group Is there a PC librarian around that could help the reorganisation the PMC memory ? I've tried once to make a Cubase studio module but was thrown out by the way they describe their sys ex : C programming syntax ????? (any c programmer that could help me for another try ?) Had some crashes mostly caused by a loose soldering on the DC input thanks for your advices Claude ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:27:53 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Lambrecht To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jmman sighted Message-Id: <199712191427.JAA08035@mcfeely.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rogue Music has another Jammie on their auction site #500429--they're still crowing about the $ 611 bid they got for the one (soulless East Coast gear vampires) this one has the memory upgrade and the last time I looked had shot up to $ 255 If you must participate I can neither condemn or condone your behavior Jammies and the madness of crowds drone on~~~TOm Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:45:10 EST From: ZeplinSoup To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Vortex polyrhythms Message-ID: <38c18974.349a968f@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I just got a new Vortex and was impressed with the polyrhythm capabilities and was wondering how you guys may have used this feature?(i just remixed the Dark side of the moon,with the help of the vortex..on the second song..Whats the name?that drum type thing you know...anyway on that part I tapped in the the one beat and set up a polyrhythm of 3:2 in the duo mode>I am wonderin' how you guys use this jamman feature... warning...skip the rest of this caca if you already about what polyrhythms are and how to count them and such!! the definition of a polyrhythm ( for those that dont know) is 2 equally spaced rhythms that occur within the same period of time which are NOT equally divisible into each other.So if in 2 beats we have 2 quarter notes(4/4 time sig.) and 8 sixteenth notes occuring at the same time then this is NOT a polyrhythm.However if in this same two beats we had both 2 qurter notes AND 3 other equally spaeced notes we would have a polyrhythm (woohoo!) about a year ago I devised a boredom killer that involved my watch...one exercise was so take the second( 60bpm-duh) and use a polyrhythm tO calculate a new tempo..actually this can come in handy if you know the tempo of a song you need to play but have no metronome or other way to get the target tempo...for example a 3:2 polyrhythm gives us a tempo of 90 ..to get 75 use a 5:4 polyrhythm..heres a hard one 8:3 (!) gives 160..and so on..anyway I would use my watch to calculate and perform as many different polyrhythms as I could (when bored).Actually with just a watch you can accurately calculate bps of about 2 tempos per 10bps-in about 5bps increments.they became second nature and are no easy to perform...but you may be asking How do I count or figure out how to count a polyrhythm?lets take 4:5 (in 5 beats there are 4 notes)for an example... step 1->multiply the two #s together (4*5=20) step 2->find a beat division where in 5 beats there will be 20 notes(sixteenth notes,or you would know by the 4 in 4:5) step 3->mark every 5th sixteenth note to play... ->started with IIII IIII IIII IIII IIII ->now is xIII IxII IIxI IIIx IIII here is 5:4= IIIII IIIII IIIII IIIII XIIIX IIIXI IIXII IXIII try to count 8:3 thats prollay one of the hardest... why do this?how does it help?one instance may be if you play a 3 note pattern in sixteenth notes(x/4time)...the accents are the same as in a 3:4 polyrhythm,better funk playing,challenge,music may call for it,rhythmic freedom,and to simply have a better time feel,ect,ect...blah blah boggle baggle... anyways.... see ya round the horn guys Reeve How Does this related to Loopin'? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:23:00 EST From: Drumworker To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Happy Holidays Everybody! Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Best Wishes to All! I know that I'm kind of a "back bencher" (a Canadian parlimentry term - means you don't hear from me much) but thanks for you're responses to my questions in the last few months. I have saved a tonne of information regarding looping/gear/etc. which has helped solve both current dilemmas and for future reference. So.... I hope which ever you're celebrating is great and I look forward to the next year of sharing info. After all, life is just a big loop ya know. Cheers, Paul Ormandy "Drumworker@aol.com" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:50:05 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg (Exchange)" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: bluegrass looping Message-Id: <215C1D5A0FFDD011B3CC00805FC18C291B8EA6@NTSRV2.LEXICON.COM> Content-Type: text/plain A while back ANET asked: "I didn't know that Chet had some looping stuff out there, do anyone know what it is and if it's good?" On a recent album, "Almost Alone" Chet does a loop jam called JAMMAN which won a Grammy award(I forget what category.) It is a sweet little composition which demonstrates what can be done with looping rather well. It isn't really bluegrass and I don't think that there is any other looping on the album. I do know that he usually incorporates a 20 minute looping set into his live act. Best regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 97 11:21:51 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Jmman sighted Message-Id: <199712191722.JAA30004@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Rogue Music has another Jammie on their auction site #500429--they're still >crowing about the $ 611 bid they got for the one (soulless East Coast gear >vampires) I'd have to say that if you're willing to pay that sort of money for a JamMan, you should just buy an Echoplex. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:37:53 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg (Exchange)" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: PMC-10 Message-Id: <215C1D5A0FFDD011B3CC00805FC18C291B8EAA@NTSRV2.LEXICON.COM> Content-Type: text/plain Miko said and asked:" I've been hoping to see more sturdy units capable of > assigning multiple controllers to one ex-ped or another. And the > ability to assign each individual controllers midi channel as > well. > This gives you the ability to control several midi module real > time > controllers with a single pedal. > > Has anyone tried the new Lexicon MXP floor controller? What is > it's > architecture like? Is it easy to program?" > > There was a lone reply from our kindest forum host which > stated:"Isn't the Lex pedal only dedicated for the MXP? I didn't think > it was actually a midi pedal, but I could be wrong." > Yes, The MPX R1 does MIDI. It is meant to give you control of all things MIDI. It is also very sturdy. It does not currently allow you to send several message via one pedal. I have forwarded your posting to the product management folks so that they will be aware of your desire. Any of the footswitches can also be assigned to send out controller messages. The machine does give you a lot of options so the biggest battle in programming it will be in deciding what you want it to do. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I can do for you. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone +781-280-0372 FAX +781-280-0499 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:53:23 -0800 From: Mike.Biffle@wj.com (Mike Biffle) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" , "Hogan; Greg (Exchange)" Subject: Re[2]: PMC-10 Message-ID: <00064FFE.1264@wj.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Thanks for the reply Greg... The PMC 10 was my first midi pedal because it seemed to offer more than any of the competitors at the time. I've been waiting a long time for everyone else to catch up, and apparently not enough people have been squawking about extended functions that other manufacturers have added those extended features. I was naive enough to believe that *all* MIDI control parameters would be finally addressed by the manufacturers in the near future. (Not in 2010.) Won't ZIPI come and save us before that??? That said here is what my PMC10 does which is mandatory in any other MIDI pedal I might migrate to. (And believe me I want to.) 1. Record and send Sysex strings sent out by other modules. 2. Assign to either exp-ped 1 or 2; (I believe 3 or 4) continuous controllers and send on any midi channel as well as scale either positively or negatively. 3. Send multiple pgm chg as well as multiple ctl chg values on any midi channel in a single patch. 4. More than 100 patch memory capability. I know the Rocktron All Access pedal fills most of these requirements, but haven't yet made any commitment to another pedal because the PMC-10 is so robust in it's features. Although it's not particularly roadworthy and has memory crashed on me a number of times leaving me high and dry. Still few more questions about the MPX1 R Midi Pedal. 1. Ads say that the exp-ped is switched. Does that mean that you can program the switch to possibly activate one or both of the relays? Or program that switch to send a pgm-chg possibly? What does that switch do? 2. Is the ex ped scaleable like the LXP 15II controller assignments? Y You say below that it can only send one controller msg... Too bad, that's a major flaw. The LXP 15II allows up to five controllers to be assigned to any one pedal with positive or neg scaling as well. It seems that the other Lexicon products allow multiple controller assignment as well... How did they overlook that with the MPX1-R? 3. If I program my PMC-10 to send the pgm-chg which toggles the TAP function on my JamMan, it is not as accurate as if I use a hard wired footswitch due to midi delay. How does the TAP switch on the MPX1-R handle this. Is it a hardwire contact thru the MIDI cable? Or does it still suffer from MIDI lag? 4. Are the A/B registers operated like the Vortex? And does the MPX1 offer all of the cool abilities the Vortex offers?... Like tap delay with time divide if you exceed the maximum delay time? Thanks in advance Greg... (I know I ask alot.) Sincerely, -Miko ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: PMC-10 Author: "Hogan; Greg (Exchange)" at INTERNET Date: 12/19/97 12:37 PM Miko said and asked:" I've been hoping to see more sturdy units capable of > assigning multiple controllers to one ex-ped or another. And the > ability to assign each individual controllers midi channel as > well. > This gives you the ability to control several midi module real > time > controllers with a single pedal. > > Has anyone tried the new Lexicon MXP floor controller? What is > it's > architecture like? Is it easy to program?" > > There was a lone reply from our kindest forum host which > stated:"Isn't the Lex pedal only dedicated for the MXP? I didn't think > it was actually a midi pedal, but I could be wrong." > Yes, The MPX R1 does MIDI. It is meant to give you control of all things MIDI. It is also very sturdy. It does not currently allow you to send several message via one pedal. I have forwarded your posting to the product management folks so that they will be aware of your desire. Any of the footswitches can also be assigned to send out controller messages. The machine does give you a lot of options so the biggest battle in programming it will be in deciding what you want it to do. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything that I can do for you. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone +781-280-0372 FAX +781-280-0499 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 13:55:32 -0600 From: Tom Spaulding To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: bluegrass looping Message-Id: <97Dec19.135511cst.26884@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, Chet loops. I just gave him a fully-loaded Echoplex (actually it was the last demo one we had in our showroom) last month at his request. Due to his cancer treatments, his ability to play as he once did (by his own admission)is gone, but we hope the 'plex can help pick up some of the slack. We are anxious to hear what comes of it... Tom At 09:50 AM 12/19/97 -0600, you wrote: >A while back ANET asked: "I didn't know that Chet had some looping stuff >out there, do anyone know what it is and if it's good?" > >On a recent album, "Almost Alone" Chet does a loop jam called JAMMAN >which won a Grammy award(I forget what category.) It is a sweet little >composition which demonstrates what can be done with looping rather >well. It isn't really bluegrass and I don't think that there is any >other looping on the album. I do know that he usually incorporates a 20 >minute looping set into his live act. > >Best regards, > >Greg > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:15:02 -0600 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Happy Holidays Everybody! Message-ID: <349AD5C6.791C@dmans.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drumworker wrote: > > Best Wishes to All! > > I know that I'm kind of a "back bencher" (a Canadian parlimentry term - means > you don't hear from me much) but thanks for you're responses to my questions > in the last few months. I have saved a tonne of information regarding > looping/gear/etc. which has helped solve both current dilemmas and for future > reference. > > So.... I hope which ever you're celebrating is great and I look forward to the > next year of sharing info. After all, life is just a big loop ya know. > > Cheers, > Paul Ormandy > "Drumworker@aol.com" I hope it's a spiral! %^) Motley ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:06:57 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: PMC-10 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:37 PM -0500 12/19/97, Hogan, Greg (Exchange) wrote: > Miko said and asked:" I've been hoping to see more sturdy units >capable of >> assigning multiple controllers to one ex-ped or another. And the >> ability to assign each individual controllers midi channel as >> well. >> This gives you the ability to control several midi module real >> time >> controllers with a single pedal. >> >> Has anyone tried the new Lexicon MXP floor controller? What is >> it's >> architecture like? Is it easy to program?" >> >> There was a lone reply from our kindest forum host which >> stated:"Isn't the Lex pedal only dedicated for the MXP? I didn't think >> it was actually a midi pedal, but I could be wrong." >> >Yes, The MPX R1 does MIDI. It is meant to give you control of all >things MIDI. ah, thanks for correcting me, Greg. Some other questions, in addition to Miko's: - Can the footswitches be programmed to act in a momentary or toggle function? Momentary meaning you press the switch and one midi string is sent, when you let go of the switch, a second midi string is sent. Toggle meaning the first time I press a given switch, it sends one string of midi commands, the second time I press it it sends a second string. The most obvious example of momentary is playing notes or chords on a synth, where press down on the switch sends the note-on and releasing it sends the note off. Toggle is useful for a stomp-box like approach, where you might have one effect assigned to a given switch. So you press that switch and the effect comes on, press again and it turns off. The PMC-10 and Roctron pedals can do these and I find it extremely useful. - Does it have midi in? If so, can it do things like midi merge, midi filtering, etc.? - Can you send all possible midi commands? For example, I want to send note-on, note-off to synths and samplers. I'd also like to send start-song and stop-song messages to sequencers. And for any commands not explicitly available, I'd like to be able to send sysex, or even just directly type in the hex for the midi command. (for example, I'm a long way from needing this, but eventually I would like to use Midi Show Control for lighting and such. If I could spontaneously set the lighting while playing, that would be very cool. I wouldn't expect this in a midi pedal, but if I could type in the hex for it myself that would be fine.) Again, I can do this stuff with the PMC-10. But like Miko, if the pmc starts acting up I'd like to know what else I can get. - how many patches/banks/sets etc can it hold? thanks, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com --------------------------------