------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 25 Today's Topics: Re: Go beyond? [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Synching a Vortex? [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: Vortex CC pedal [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: music just for musicians? [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] RE: Music just for musicians? [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hu ] Re: Music just for musicians? [ nyfac ] Re: Music just for musicians? [ "Hogan, Greg" ] Re: JamMan upgrades [ finley@ecst.csuchico.edu (Matthew F ] RE: Music just for musicians? [ Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.C ] Re: JamMan upgrades [ nyfac ] RE: Music just for musicians?/gripe [ neato@pipeline.com ] Boomerang "stack" button latching [ David_Mitchell@HP-Australia-notes1. ] Re: Boomerang "stack" button latchin [ Kim Flint ] mistake [ Silvia Boschero ] Re: Boomerang "stack" button latchin [ The Man Himself ] the proof of the pudding.... [ sarajane@tmbsbbs.com (Sarajane) ] Re: music just for musicians? [ andre ] Re: Looping for the masses [ andre ] Re[2]: Looping for the masses [ David.Orton@mail.bl.uk (David Orton ] RE: Sticking with looping [ "Pete Gilbert" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Eventually (the topic is not new) I came across the little idea following. >Matthias, I think, although you changed it to "besides" I think, that >theword "Beyond" was perfectly chosen. >At first I mistook the sense like almost everyone here. But In fact we >have to go beyond -yes- not Fripp, or anyone (I have a strong reoccuring >problem with Allan Holdsworth) just because we have to go beyond the part >of these people work wwe have internalised (oh, again does it exist, an I >making myself clear?). In a way It has nothing to see with those artists, >it is just a problem between ourselves and... ourselves! Thank you for this nice interpretation, Olivier: Going beyond influences is going beyond ourselves - each time the present self, a vision of growth... to become magician? Everybody? It used to be the realm of a few, is this to change? Anyway, there is some magic to almost any work, especially music... nice. And then I would like to loop Jon: >So, thank you to all who've been sharing with us your secrets of creative >magic--I'm thoroughly gratified to encounter so many forward-thinking >musicians. >May you all find what you're seeking. Amen Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:07:06 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Synching a Vortex? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I forwarded a message of this kind before. Should we invite them to transfer this discussion to the loop list or transfer ours about Vortex to Synth-diy (where there are more solder iron interested) or ...found a Vortex list? :-) >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 18:06:48 -0500 >From: "Arnim X. Sauerbier" >Organization: Globelle >To: synth-diy@horus.sara.nl (DIY) >Cc: ajl@bitstream.net (Andrew Lunstad), > satti002@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Chris Sattinger), redbooklab@aol.com >Subject: Synching a Vortex? >Sender: owner-synth-diy@horus.sara.nl >Precedence: bulk > >Hi folks! > >Not a synth question, but a musical DIY topic nonetheless: > >I've got a Lexicon Vortex (worth the $149 sale price IMHO). It lets the >user set delay times by tapping a 'delay/tap' button twice. The box has >no MIDI interface, but I'd like to sync the delays to my MIDI sequences! > >I was thinking of the following hack: use one of the outputs of my drum >machine as a click, then build some kind of circuit that closes the >contact of the 'tap' switch whenever a voltage peak (from the drum >machine) is detected. > >What would such a circuit look-like? Perhaps a transistor that triggers >a relay that closes the 'tap' button? > >What would you do? Any other solutions that wouldn't involve using-up an >output on my Drumstation? > >Thanks! Sorry for my glaring ignorance. >------------------------ >Arnim Then the answer of Gene Stopp who is an experienced synth inventor. His posts are nice, clear and fundamented: >Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 17:00:36 PST >From: gstopp@fibermux.com >Encoding: 59 Text >To: synth-diy@horus.sara.nl >Subject: Re: Synching a Vortex? >Sender: owner-synth-diy@horus.sara.nl >Precedence: bulk > > I think you are on the right track... > > It is distinctly possible that the Vortex tap footswitch input is > looking for a short to ground as the trigger event, in which case you > could skip the relay idea and just use the transistor to ground the > input (like a Moog S-trigger). To turn on the transistor you could use > a voltage trigger from a MIDI clock-to-voltage pulse converter, or > like you say derive a pulse from an audio event such as a drum hit. > > Converting the audio pulse to a voltage trigger can be done with an > envelope follower plus a comparator. Actually for such a specific > application you can probably throw together a simple > diode/cap/resistor peak detector into an op-amp into the transistor > and be done with it. Probably you'll need a 10x preamp on the front > end. It might have to be tweaked to the specific drum sound that you > use, but since the Vortex is expecting a "sloppy" pulse like a human > foot on a switch, it probably doesn't care too much about pulse > duration. > > The way I'd figure this out is with a protoboard, an assortment of > components, and a scope. Hey I have a Vortex now, maybe I'll check > this out some time (next week at the soonest...). > > A couple weeks ago I built a MIDI-clock to voltage pulse divider > circuit on a single chip, but that's another story... > > - Gene > gstopp@fibermux.com Then Saul Stokes >Hi Gene, I thought I would let you know that I would also be interested >in a circuit like this if you decided to think one up. There's probably >quite a few people actually. ...and another few on this list? Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:07:14 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Vortex CC pedal Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I use an EV-5 as well. You may need to adjust the sweep range control for >optimum results. Electronics questions can be addressed to: wbrake@aol.com. > >Will Ah, Will, you could be the answer to my last post... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:07:20 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jon: >>I still maintain that the easy answer is a looping card for the PCM 80. >>All the >>tools are in place, and it would be a really great product, albeit an >>expensive >>one. But no one wanted to hear it, so... I know a lot of instruments and equippment in this price range - is it that much more important? Dr. Hughes: >I never thought I'd _ever_ actually say this, but it would be cheaper to >buy a TC2290..... you get more front space and weight and nicer keys, but much less functionality, I think. Its 12 years old, after all! I am in favour of the PCM80 card In the next mail, on fire: >But it wasn't. It could have been pushed as the replacement EH16sec delay. > Robert Fripp should have been photographed with it as soon as it came out, >rather than waiting years till Obie produced a similar product. The LOOP delay was on the market one year before the JamMan and all the important functions of the later Echoplex, and if Obie had moved quicker... But do not worry too much about this side. Important is that we go ahead and let it grow. If we spread that we are a marginal group of ambient fans, it will not convince a manufacturer to spread products at accessible prices. If we get the vision of the wide possibilities, it will start happening for all of us. Matthias Oh, and please: do not compare delay units with loop units, its different worlds! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:04:53 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Music just for musicians? Message-Id: <27586.199702031804@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In response to the latest to-ing and fro-ing between (principally) myself and Jon, Greg wrote the following: >Well I tried to make a simple blanket statement about a very complex >situation and it seems that I opened a big can of worms. More like Pandora's box... oops, wrong FX manufacturer! >Has Lexicon made >mistakes? Yes, of course. We did try to create interest in the JAMMAN and >Vortex. These products did not sell at 1/3 of the rate as the ALEX or >REFLEX. Yes there were forecasting problems. Does Lexicon owe it to the >community to keep products in the product line? I don't think so. Only when it's US!!! :) >I was warned when I arrived at this list that John Durant was almost >railroaded off of this list. Well his interest in the art of looping has >kept him here. That one actually came from me... at the time there was the big "why does the JM act like it's stereo" thing; Jon was taking flak and as I recall I posted trying to tell everyone that just 'cos Jon is a Lex employee, doesn't mean you attack him for Lex actions. Same here. The post about watching your back was in good humour, I assure you. >I am not running away as I am used to taking the punishment >for the actions of others(it has been my job for a long time.) But lets not >waste time with this issue. It would be more constructive(and interesting) >to discuss what everybody would like to see in the next generation of >dedicated(or not) looping technology. Maybe if we are all good on the >karmic scale Lexicon or Oberheim(or Roland or Alesis) might answer our >prayers. Greg, I think that you may have been taking the debate personally here, and if that's the case then I deeply and humbly apologise. I own a JamMan, and am trying to persuade my wife that we can afford a Vortex (though I've never heard one - I'm acting to words from this list). Like everyone else here I'm sadenned by Lex's dropping of these products (though grateful for the attendent drop in price!), but no-one is blaming you, or punishing you, I thought we were having a good-natured debate on why the sales values you mention happened, especially in the light of how cool we know these boxes are. >Yes there were forecasting problems. Does Lexicon owe it to the >community to keep products in the product line? I don't think so. >Is Lexicon run by musicians? I wish. Is a discussion of corporate politics >really very relevant to this list? I don't believe so but I suppose it is >debatable. Only when they influence us. >I do not get it. Which would be worse? The fact that we stopped shipping >these products or if they were never made? Many people around here would lose limbs rarther than Vortices. I thought we were debating why the rest of Humanity was stupid enough not to realise that. Sorry again, Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 13:22:54 -0500 From: nyfac To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Music just for musicians? Message-ID: <32F77E7E.2781@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hogan, Greg- Keep your chin up. I don't think anyone here has any hostility towards you- At least I hope not. I for one am grateful for your presence on this list. If you're ever down NYC way, I would be pleased to prucase you the cold beverage of your choice. Trev ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:38:00 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: Re: Music just for musicians? Message-Id: <9702031848.AA28632@beryllium.lexicon.com> Hi again, I'm not as sensitive as my last post may have implied. There are definitely lessons to be learned in the past. I was just trying to steer topic closer to where I think it should be(only my opinion.) Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email: ghogan@lexicon.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:57:42 -0800 (PST) From: finley@ecst.csuchico.edu (Matthew F. McCabe) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan upgrades Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> I told him about our list and he said for anyone interested in these >>JamMan tweaks to email him at so he can see how much >>interest and support is there for these mods and also to keep us posted on >>their progress > >I have not heard from Bob since so I don't know anything new, but if you >haven't emailed him yet please do so. >I also gave Bob our email address and told him to post directly to the list >if there is any news. > > Later Ed Right after you originally posted this message I fired off an email to Bob. Haven't heard anything. I suspect he's a busy man. Maybe we should pool a list of questions and send them in one email so as not to overwhelm the man. Just a thought.... Matt P.S. Uhh...I guess I just volunteered myself for the task! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ King Never http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~finley/kingnever.html ------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew F. McCabe Able Cain King Never Marathon Records ------------------------------ Date: 03 Feb 97 16:19:54 EST From: Jon Durant <74074.1316@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: RE: Music just for musicians? Message-ID: <970203211953_74074.1316_GHQ138-1@CompuServe.COM> Michael writes: > I thought we were having a good-natured debate on why the sales values you >mention happened, especially in the light of how cool we know these boxes >are. I think we just stumbled onto the downside of cyberspace communique. I, too, thought this debate was all good-natured and fun, but it appears that others may have detected some un-intended animosity. So, I apologize for any seeming (or un-seemingly) flames: just trying to show a position. Also: Michael--I suspect you missed the "boston's not a big college town" reference: this is a line from "Spinal Tap", and if you've not seen the movie, you must. It should be required viewing for all musicians! As for corporate politics: they are an unfortunate obstacle to continuing development of such devices. My own cynicism is perhaps excessive due to my years being beaten over the head with it. A year's distance has really made me pale at what I saw. I wish it were otherwise, but it isn't. And I really don't suspect it would be any different at any other currently existing manuafacturer who expects to be profitable... >Many people around here would lose limbs rarther than Vortices. I thought >we were debating why the rest of Humanity was stupid enough not to realise >that. Is that where we started? I lost track somewhere down the line!!! Later, Jon Durant ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 17:45:22 -0500 From: nyfac To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan upgrades Message-ID: <32F7BC02.41C6@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew F. McCabe wrote: > > >> I told him about our list and he said for anyone interested in these > >>JamMan tweaks to email him at so he can see how much > >>interest and support is there for these mods and also to keep us posted on > >>their progress You know, there is one tweak I would be very interested in: either playing my loops backwards, or being able to have a backwards sample loop. I figure that there must be a way to do this using a sequencer/drum machine/whatever, but the whole reason I like my JamSter is that I don't have to mess with that. Am I missing something here? Trev ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:01:31 -0500 From: neato@pipeline.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Music just for musicians?/gripe gripe Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greg Hogan wrote >Well I tried to make a simple blanket statement about a very complex >situation and it seems that I opened a big can of worms. neato says: this is kind of funny...we're a group of individuals who somehow got together in time and space due to our interest in looping and loopers...to date the term loopers basically applies to 2 pieces of hardware-lexicon jamman and oberheim echoplex...not really much to choose from to begin with and now rather suddenly we are told the jamman is no more! what are we supposed to do? not question why? the reason is not because the jamman is a failed footnote in technology(the actual mechanics of the unit), but rather because the profit margin on it was not acceptable...fair enough..but i think we at least deserve the right to mull the situation over...this is not personal...just the ramblings of a few musicians who feel something they started has been jeopardized...we're one piece of equipment (obie) away from extinction!(wink wink) cheers all my mistakes were once acts of genius neato@pipeline com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 11:38:16 +1000 From: David_Mitchell@HP-Australia-notes1.om.hp.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Boomerang "stack" button latching Message-Id: <"82114:1*"@MHS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Lotus" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some time back someone pointed out that the "stack" button on the Boomerang needs to be held down when layering sounds in a loop. I re-read an old magazine review (written mid-96) of the Boomerang last night where this was pointed out to the manufacturer as a failing of the unit. The manufacturer replied that they were considering implementing the "stack" feature via a latched button - double click on the button enabled stacking, double click again to disable - due to user feedback. From the gist of the article, I got the impression that this might be a software update only and not involve a physical switch replacement. Does anyone know if this feature has been implemented yet? It seemed to be the single major failing of the unit, according to the reviewer. Dave Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:55:08 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Boomerang "stack" button latching Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970203235508.0099ee7c@xenon.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:38 AM 2/4/97 +1000, David_Mitchell@HP-Australia-notes1.om.hp.com wrote: >Does anyone know if this feature has been implemented yet? It seemed to be >the single major failing of the unit, according to the reviewer. > >Dave Mitchell I don't know the answer, but does anyone know if Boomerang is still in business? They weren't exhibiting at NAMM, which generally isn't a good sign. kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 00:55:40 +0100 From: Silvia Boschero To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: mistake Message-ID: <32F67AFC.1359@ats.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think you made a mistake! I don't know anything about your "Boomerang", I'm sorry, probably you made a mistake with the address: silviab@ats.it is the address of a butcher company. Bie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:59:15 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Boomerang "stack" button latching Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Kim Flint wrote: > I don't know the answer, but does anyone know if Boomerang is still in > business? They weren't exhibiting at NAMM, which generally isn't a good sign. I was wondering about that myself... I've only ever seen one unit in a store, at a Guitar Center shop. The sale price was about $350 -- same as a JamMan. Given the considerably smaller resources of the company as compared to Lexicon, I don't know how optimistic the future would be... Hopefully they're still around in one form or another. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:31:07 -0400 From: Ed Drake To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan upgrades Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ed said: >>> I told him about our list and he said for anyone interested in these >>>JamMan tweaks to email him at so he can see how much >>>interest and support is there for these mods and also to keep us posted on >>>their progress >> >>I have not heard from Bob since so I don't know anything new, but if you >>haven't emailed him yet please do so. >>I also gave Bob our email address and told him to post directly to the list >>if there is any news. >> >> Later Ed Matt said: >Right after you originally posted this message I fired off an email to Bob. >Haven't heard anything. I suspect he's a busy man. Maybe we should pool >a list of questions and send them in one email so as not to overwhelm the >man. Just a thought.... > >Matt > >P.S. Uhh...I guess I just volunteered myself for the task! :-) Matt When I talked to Bob for 5 minutes or so that day, I got the impression he was very busy. He said it was funny that I had called about the Upgrade because he had just fired off a new eprom to try out for the upgrade the night before. One other thing he said that I had forgotten in my original post, was about the stereo loops and how you could pan them too! I got the impression this whole upgrade thing might still be a little while, because licensing the software from Lex had to be worked out. If you do email him, ask him what time frame for the upgrade and what new things are being implemented. Trev said: >You know, there is one tweak I would be very interested in: either >playing my loops backwards, or being able to have a backwards sample >loop. > >I figure that there must be a way to do this using a sequencer/drum >machine/whatever, but the whole reason I like my JamSter is that I don't >have to mess with that. > >Am I missing something here? > >Trev Trev, I want to make sure I understand you. Do you mean have the backwards sample loop around with out having to trigger it via footswitch ? I'm not sure. You can't play loops backwards, you can only play backwards in the sample mode (one pass sample which means no layering, etc.) Also I'm not sure but I think the MIDI clock, which runs sequencers and drum machines, doesn't work in the sample Mode only in either of the Loop Modes. Ed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:32:22 GMT From: sarajane@tmbsbbs.com (Sarajane) To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: the proof of the pudding.... Message-Id: <970203234328147@tmbsbbs.com> Greetings Loopers, Just a couple of quick observations on the flow of babble on the LD of late. 1. 8000 JamMan units sold.How many Echoplex DP? EH 16 sec? 2. 125 subsribers to the LD list...just scratching the surface of loopers worldwide..but a great start. 3. Do loopers want to court corporate techno-moguls in order to stand a chance in hell of seeing a looping device that performs all the deeply desired and unique functions that only loopers lust for... A.Expandable loop time B.Reverse function C.Half speed playback D.Multiply and Undo functions E.Stereo processing-entire signal path F.No factory-sanctioned glitches 4-Will this group of players feel the need to congregate together at some point in the future to share performances and information, and to solcit industry to makes it's pitch and contribute to the cost of such an event? 5- Should we be telling anyone about this kind of music in that they are already listening to loops in many aspects of modern audio production and could care less about the artform. Is there a collective sense that loop oriented music deserves a better fate than most work made available for sale in this pop culture. 6- Oh and by the way I do my fair share of childcare and cleaning, lest my wife's recent remarks lead you to believe otherwise.... isn't that right dear? Bryan Helm "32 seconds is not long enough" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:46:26 -0500 (EST) From: andre To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: music just for musicians? Message-Id: <199702040646.BAA16561@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:02 PM 2/2/97 -0500, you wrote: > >In a message dated 2/2/97 8:24:51 PM, Kim wrote: > ><made any remarkably creative or innovative artistic statements,>> > >Woa! How do you know what they do in their off time when their not playing >the corporate/commercial anything for a buck game? --Paul > awww, c'mon now - let's not descend into a slagging war !! Like him or not, Joe Perry has put the hard time in - playing his brand of blues-soaked riff rock - there's a place for simple - straight into the amp stuff too !! Slash - well - he seems into his music enough to have quit G 'n R to due a more blues-based thing with his "snake pit"... anyway - let's not fall into what the "other side" does - when they slag everything within a mile of a rack of any sort. andre (nj) loops away !!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:49:08 -0500 (EST) From: andre To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping for the masses Message-Id: <199702040649.BAA16831@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:39 PM 2/3/97 +0000, you wrote: > Dear Loopers > > Presumably I'm not the only one to notice this, or everyone else considers too wide of the mark, but HotWired's Webmonkey page recently > provided instructions on how to add an ambient audio loop to Web pages > - with the proviso that it'll be as naff as blinking words in 6 > months. So - do y'all want it to be *that* popular?! hey ! anyone notice if you morph the above gentleman's name - David Orton it becomes David O. Torn... silly me andre (sorry dave) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:09:01 +0000 From: David.Orton@mail.bl.uk (David Orton) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re[2]: Looping for the masses Message-ID: <00009D19.1424@mail.bl.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Andre observes: >hey ! anyone notice if you morph...David Orton > >it becomes David O. Torn... > >silly me >andre > >(sorry dave) ...which of course explains why I took a risk on the Everyman Band album all those years ago... David (the semi-legendary non-anagram and in no way related to Joe or Beth) http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~or387751/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 01:19:24 UT From: "Pete Gilbert" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Sticking with looping Message-Id: I'm struggling to justify buying a JamMan (can you say "married with children"?) and I'm wondering about the sorts of things other Stickers are doing with looping. Stick actually loops quite nicely. You need to be careful that the percussive attack of the bass notes don't distort, but other than that, just about everything should loop fine. I've been looping the stick for three years or so. I usually loop the melody end. My partner likes to loop primarily the bass end of his stick. This way we don't walk on top of each other. I don't have any examples of this on the net, yet. We are finishing up mixing and I hope to take a track or two from that an place it on the web. I will post here once things are finished. Pete --------------------------------