------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Where to buy Echoplex pedal?? [ David Talento ] For Matthias [ "Hogan, Greg" ] RE: Some ideas... [ Michael Peters <100041.247@compuser ] RE: The wish-list of doom [ Michael Peters <100041.247@compuser ] Re: Where to buy Echoplex pedal?? [ The Man Himself ] Re: On future looping machines [ Dan Howarth ] Jamman mods [ Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski, ] Re: On future looping machines [ Jonathan Brainin MIDI Clock [ "Robert S. Carter" ] Teed at AACM [ Teed Rockwell <74164.3703@CompuServ ] Re: Teed at AACM [ Jeff Schwartz To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Where to buy Echoplex pedal?? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ok I've just about given of on finding and programming a midi pedal to do the trick. Also, the size of the EP pedal box is rather nice IMO. The question is *where* can I buy one at a decent price? I have heard $150, $70, $100 but have no idea what the "right" price should be or who has them in stock. Can anyone suggest a place/price I should look for? thanks for any/all help -------- Help Wanted Productions - Bringing you the best in organic electronic and sweaty rock music since we started. Http://www.voicenet.com/~legion Available next month: "The Feedback Machine" a new studio album from the Music for Isolation Tanks live lineup. Only $6.00 postpaid! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:55:00 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: For Matthias Message-Id: <9702042207.AA04639@beryllium.lexicon.com> Sorry to bother the rest of you with this. Matthias, I have Steves reply for you but I misplaced your address, please forward it to me. Best regards, Greg Hogan Lexicon Customer Service Phone 617-280-0372 FAX 617-280-0499 email: ghogan@lexicon.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:57:32 -0500 From: Michael Peters <100041.247@compuserve.com> To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Some ideas... Message-ID: <199702041757_MC2-10D2-787C@compuserve.com> hi jj, >Ever play the game "Life" on the computer? your ideas are pretty fascinating - but I'd think cellular automata or similar rule based complex systems are things one would realize using a computer rather than a dedicated loop box. Have you checked out Sseyo's Koan software? I think it is based on related ideas (haven't tried it myself) and Brian Eno uses it. Michael Peters default mail address: 100041.247@compuserve.com binary stuff and attachments: mp@scholz.re.eunet.de http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:57:35 -0500 From: Michael Peters <100041.247@compuserve.com> To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: The wish-list of doom Message-ID: <199702041757_MC2-10D2-787D@compuserve.com> Andre, I really enjoyed the wish-list of doom ... and agree with every point. Maybe we should post this on a web page of its own, for the manufacturers to look up. "What musicians really want". :) One more minor thing : If I need a loop to match a certain time frame (2.26 sec) exactly, I'd like to be able to enter the length value manually, with keys or a dial, instead of tapping it in which is never exact enough. Michael Peters default mail address: 100041.247@compuserve.com binary stuff and attachments: mp@scholz.re.eunet.de http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:56:25 -0800 (PST) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Where to buy Echoplex pedal?? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, David Talento wrote: > The question is *where* can I buy one at a decent price? I have heard > $150, $70, $100 but have no idea what the "right" price should be or who > has them in stock. $150 is way out of line. The list is about $100; I paid $70-ish for mine (but it was at a pretty amazing sale). The $100 neighborhood is where you should check; I bought mine at Nadine's in LA, which is where I got the $100 list quote from. --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:27:31 -0700 (MST) From: Dan Howarth To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: CD available Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi folks, a friend of mine recently released her first disc, on which i play on two tracks. her name is Ann Hawkins, and she plays acoustic guitar in the michael hedges/leo kottke finger-picking style, and sings in the tori amos/joni mitchell style. call it alternative/folk/rock. :) she's currently playing in the NYC area... i played Stick on two songs (bass-lines, melody chords, and solos) in a trio format (drums). the other 8 songs are either the same trio with me replaced by an upright bassist, duos with percussion, or solos. it's all original material, recorded mostly to analog. anyhow. her contact number is 201 222 7665. this is in Hoboken, NJ. just ask for Annie and a CD (it might not be a bad idea to mention that i told you about this.) thanks. **************************************************************** ** Dan Howarth, History/Music, University of Arizona, Tucson ** ** http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth (under construction) ** **************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:46:09 -0700 (MST) From: Dan Howarth To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: On future looping machines Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Paolo Valladolid wrote: > Hope no one minds the subject change... > > My vote goes to the looping card option as well. While I would like to > see a low-cost, standalone looper to replace the JamMan, it seems like > the card option for the PCM80 or whatever would be the most viable solution > from Lexicon's point of view as well as ours. > i've been thinking about this a lot lately, in frustration with my limited loop setup of one digitech rds4000. i hope to swing a jamman soon, but in regards to the installable expansion card... the loop card on the eventide is amazing. theoretically, that is. i did a lot of browsing on the www today, and drooled especially long on the eventide pages. here's my point: the thing will sample/loop up to an amazing 260+ seconds in mono at 38khz or something. great... but you'd have to buy the GTR4000 model to do this, first of all. does anyone know how much this is? eventide is a bit too modest to project prices. second of all, you'd have to do a helluva a lot of programming (not that i object, i happen to love the stuff, especially in sound) in order to co-ordinate the looping card into the right presets. obviously you'll want to play with all the power of the eventide (or pcm80 or whatever) and, factory-shipped, the looping unit wouldn't be tied into the signal path in probably all but five or six presets out of 800. so, you'd have to run it in - to EVERY preset you would ever possibly think of using to create loops. now, for me - that's all of the presets. :) --------------- what we need is a huge, incredibly awesome processing package (the eventides and pcm80s of the world) with a dedicated feature for looping. just a front panel button which immediately plugs the looping expansion card into the signal path... or even a comprehensive footpedal which -among other things- kicks in the loops. maybe this has been covered before... sorry if it has. i'm late to this discussion. **************************************************************** ** Dan Howarth, History/Music, University of Arizona, Tucson ** ** http://www.u.arizona.edu/~howarth (under construction) ** **************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:15:56 -0500 From: Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski, Phd) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jamman mods Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am interested in anyone working on Jamman mods ... what is the status of this ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 22:40:51 -0500 From: Jonathan Brainin To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: On future looping machines Message-ID: <32F80143.3CF6@easyway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Howarth wrote: Before you read this check my profile on the looper's page...you may want to kill me before you read this! > i've been thinking about this a lot lately, in frustration with my limited > loop setup of one digitech rds4000. i hope to swing a jamman soon, but > in regards to the installable expansion card... > > the loop card on the eventide is amazing. theoretically, that is. > i did a lot of browsing on the www today, and drooled especially long on > the eventide pages. > here's my point: the thing will sample/loop up to an amazing 260+ > seconds in mono at 38khz or something. great... Actually it's something like 92 seconds for a stereo loop at 48 khz, I think. > but you'd have to buy the GTR4000 model to do this, first of all. does > anyone know how much this is? eventide is a bit too modest to project > prices. Well, uh, mine cost me $2800 as a demo from ABC Music in Scottsdale, Az. even though I think that $3000 is their normal price for a GTR4000. > second of all, you'd have to do a helluva a lot of programming (not that i > object, i happen to love the stuff, especially in sound) in order to > co-ordinate the looping card into the right presets. Actually, I have a good friend who works for Eventide as a programmer who happens to be a stick player with a major affinity for looping. He's already got a bank full of looping presets (17 of them) as well as more presets that come with the sampling board. He's always working on new presets, so I'd expect to see more looping presets in the future. > obviously you'll want to play with all the power of the eventide (or pcm80 > or whatever) and, factory-shipped, the looping unit wouldn't be tied into > the signal path in probably all but five or six presets out of 800. so, > you'd have to run it in - to EVERY preset you would ever possibly think of > using to create loops. now, for me - that's all of the presets. :) To be honest, I doubt you'd wind up using more than 20 presets. I don't think I do! Lemme know if you want more info. Later, Jonathan Brainin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:42:12 -0500 (EST) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: On future looping machines Message-ID: <970205014210_2059379136@emout11.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 2/5/97 3:44:36 AM, Jonathan Brainin wrote:, re: the GTR4000: <> Well, sure! Fill us in on how good it can be! I understand, fr'instance, that out of the box you only get 5 sec stereo delay/sampling...and the longer sampling option really is about $2000! Thanks! dp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:09:35 -0500 (EST) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Some ideas... Message-ID: <970205011014_1014689437@emout10.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 2/4/97 7:59:37 PM, jj wrote, re algorithmic loop mutation: <> Sounds like a job for Max, Opcode/IRcam's MIDI programming environment, which can apparently detect and/or analyse audio via an Audiomedia card, I understand...or rather I DON'T understand, but betcha one of the folks on the lofty max list could set up something like what you describe...there's also SuperCollider, an amazing real-time synth and audio processor for the Power Mac (whose downloadable demo is a free sonic trip NO audio-minded PowerPC owner should overlook!). And of course, who knows what couldn't be done with cSound, a Kyma box, or even an Eventide DSP4000, were money and audio engineering expertise no object... dp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 01:12:46 -0600 From: John Pollock To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: repopulate the species Message-id: <32F832ED.2ED6@delphi.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jon Durant wrote: > Anyway, Sarajane: not all loopers leave the tending of their children to the > more capable gender--some of us actually enjoy the time we get to spend with our > young offspring. Even if it means less loopage. I'm Unemployed/Househusband/Fulltime Father to our 20-month old son. In my case, this means not only less loopage, but also: --Money's tight; acquisition of a JM/Plex/anything that loops longer than the Vortex will have to wait. So will acquisition of the entire Alchemy catalogue. --I don't have the time to put together the coherent answers to questions raised by Mathias (on the list) and Erik Simpson (in private email), nor comment on the aspects of Starting Over raised by Paolo, Travis and others. (I will, eventually, I swear!) But he's worth it! :-) He may/may not be a looper, or even a guitarist (though my older offspring, who each have their own children, include guitar on _their_ lists of things they don't have time for), but he's already a music junkie. Among his faves: BB King, Timbuk 3, Leni Stern... John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 03:17:51 -0500 (EST) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: On future looping machines Message-ID: <970205013333_2025824695@emout08.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 2/5/97 2:06:58 AM, Dan wrote: <<...GTR4000 model to do this, first of all. does anyone know how much this is?>> List, without sampling card: $4000 Sampling card: $2000 (may require digital I/O; add $1000) ...sorry! dp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 02:39:12 -0600 From: John Pollock To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Music just for musicians? Message-id: <32F841FB.10DF@delphi.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greg Hogan wrote: > > Well I tried to make a simple blanket statement about a very complex > situation and it seems that I opened a big can of worms. Has Lexicon made > mistakes? Yes, of course. We did try to create interest in the JAMMAN and > Vortex. These products did not sell at 1/3 of the rate as the ALEX or > REFLEX. Yes there were forecasting problems. Does Lexicon owe it to the > community to keep products in the product line? I don't think so. Is > Lexicon run by musicians? I wish. Is a discussion of corporate politics > really very relevant to this list? I don't believe so but I suppose it is > debatable. > > I do not get it. Which would be worse? The fact that we stopped shipping > these products or if they were never made? > > I was warned when I arrived at this list that John Durant was almost > railroaded off of this list. Well his interest in the art of looping has > kept him here. I am not running away as I am used to taking the punishment > for the actions of others(it has been my job for a long time.) But lets not > waste time with this issue. Greg, I've been reading this list since October, and have been delighted with the window it has afforded me into the realities of designing, manufacturing and marketing such entities as the Vortex, JamHermano, and Echoplex. While Jon may have felt some warmth regarding (mis)representations of the JamOne as a stereo looper, my recollection is that this was quickly cleared up by the original poster's acknowledgement that this was a retailer's doing, not Lexicon's. I myself did some venting about one of Lexicon's sister Harman International companies-- but so has Jon. ;-) But "almost railroaded off of this list"? I don't think so, and I certainly hope not! > It would be more constructive(and interesting) > to discuss what everybody would like to see in the next generation of > dedicated(or not) looping technology. Maybe if we are all good on the > karmic scale Lexicon or Oberheim(or Roland or Alesis) might answer our > prayers. While I speak only for myself, my take on the second-guessing of Lexicon's marketing efforts is that its intent is constructive: We appreciate the devices, we're disappointed that their sales don't justify their continuation, and we'd like to help identify the problems in order to help insure the success of the next device to enter this market niche. I don't know of anyone eager to return to the days of twin reel-to-reels. I agree that it would be more interesting to discuss the technical specs of the next-generation looper. But what good will that achieve, if it can't be marketed? For me, this thread represents a probably necessary, if not always pleasant-tasting, dose of reality. I don't think I've said so before, but I'm very glad you're reading and contributing to this list. John Pollock mailto:johnpollock@delphi.com http://people.delphi.com/johnpollock (Troubador Tech) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:50:49 -0500 (EST) From: Paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski, Phd) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan upgrades Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have also emailed him requesting Jamman mods Paul At 11:31 PM 2/3/97, Ed Drake wrote: >Ed said: > >>>> I told him about our list and he said for anyone interested in these >>>>JamMan tweaks to email him at so he can see how much >>>>interest and support is there for these mods and also to keep us posted on >>>>their progress >>> >>>I have not heard from Bob since so I don't know anything new, but if you >>>haven't emailed him yet please do so. >>>I also gave Bob our email address and told him to post directly to the list >>>if there is any news. >>> >>> Later Ed > >Matt said: > >>Right after you originally posted this message I fired off an email to Bob. >>Haven't heard anything. I suspect he's a busy man. Maybe we should pool >>a list of questions and send them in one email so as not to overwhelm the >>man. Just a thought.... >> >>Matt >> >>P.S. Uhh...I guess I just volunteered myself for the task! :-) > >Matt > >When I talked to Bob for 5 minutes or so that day, I got the impression he >was very busy. He said it was funny that I had called about the Upgrade >because he had just fired off a new eprom to try out for the upgrade the >night before. >One other thing he said that I had forgotten in my original post, was about >the stereo loops and how you could pan them too! I got the impression this >whole upgrade thing might still be a little while, because licensing the >software from Lex had to be worked out. If you do email him, ask him what >time frame for the upgrade and what new things are being implemented. > >Trev said: > >>You know, there is one tweak I would be very interested in: either >>playing my loops backwards, or being able to have a backwards sample >>loop. >> >>I figure that there must be a way to do this using a sequencer/drum >>machine/whatever, but the whole reason I like my JamSter is that I don't >>have to mess with that. >> >>Am I missing something here? >> >>Trev > >Trev, I want to make sure I understand you. Do you mean have the backwards >sample loop around with out having to trigger it via footswitch ? I'm not >sure. You can't play loops backwards, you can only play backwards in the >sample mode (one pass sample which means no layering, etc.) Also I'm not >sure but I think the MIDI clock, which runs sequencers and drum machines, >doesn't work in the sample Mode only in either of the Loop Modes. > > Ed ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 97 16:59:07 -0500 From: Markus To: "Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: looping device recommendation Message-Id: <199702051557.AA251238248@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> -- [ From: Markus * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hi fellows! I've been using the Alesis Quadraverb 2 as a looping device and effects processor in the past years. It's the most incredible unit I've worked with so far. It's open architecture (virtual patch cords between up to 8 effect blocks)lets one set up a 4,7 seconds delay + several other effects which can also be 'morphed'. It's also perfectly suited for feedback effects of any kind. It's a great device for looping-starters and once one's decided to buy a 'real' looper, it fits nicely into any set-up. Are there any Q2 users out there? Cheers! -- Markus Reuter ========================TSG-8-Warr Guitar==== Ellerstr. 36, 33615 Bielefeld, Germany,Tel. 0521/138356==== email: mreuter@post.uni-bielefeld.de ====================== http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/markus.htm =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:40:36 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Where to buy Echoplex pedal?? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Ok I've just about given of on finding and programming a midi pedal to do >the trick. Also, the size of the EP pedal box is rather nice IMO. > >The question is *where* can I buy one at a decent price? I have heard >$150, $70, $100 but have no idea what the "right" price should be or who >has them in stock. > >Can anyone suggest a place/price I should look for? > Try Bananas at Large. (sorry, I don't remember the phone#, they're on the web) They seem to have Echoplex stuff in stock much more often than anywhere else, and from what I hear, have been buying them from other dealers of late to fill their own orders. Banana's sales success with these has everything to do with a sales manager that is an echoplex fanatic and can therefore demo it successfully.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:42:15 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Where to buy Echoplex pedal?? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Ok I've just about given of on finding and programming a midi pedal to do >the trick. Also, the size of the EP pedal box is rather nice IMO. > >The question is *where* can I buy one at a decent price? I have heard >$150, $70, $100 but have no idea what the "right" price should be or who >has them in stock. > >Can anyone suggest a place/price I should look for? > >thanks for any/all help oh yeah, Oberheim currently has production runs happening, so the echoplex should be generally easier to find soon. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:04:21 -0400 From: "Robert S. Carter" To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Tapping tempo --> MIDI Clock Message-id: <32F8D9B4.6BF1@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu> Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, I'm new on the list. In terms of looping I use a Vortex for spacy synth stuff, wierd noises, sweeps, etc. For this purpose I have found that morphing into a loop with a CV pedal works better than an abrupt switch between patches via the A/B switch. The result is a real smooth crossfade into or out of a loop. I can describe this in more detail if anyone is interested. Can any other looping device do this type of trick? And now a really important question which I've posted to several newsgroups with no good answers. I desperately need a pedal switch or button type device with which to tap tempo and send a master MIDI clock. Like the vortex tap tempo, but of course the vortex is not MIDI. Basically I want to be able to set up synth arpeggiations and LFO stuff synched to my drummer (rather than him synching to me- that ain't gonna happen). This is not a set it and leave it operation, rather I want to be able to change tempos on the fly during and between songs. The one device that I have used that will do it is an oberheim cyclone, but I'll spare you the reasons why I don't want to use the cyclone (great box, no reliability). I've been told a PCM80 will do it but that's a lot of money. I know the JamMan and Echoplex send MIDI clock based upon tapped loop lenghths. However from what little I know of the jamMAn , it's not such a straightforward operation- you can't just tap and change tempos in loop mode and for some reason the unit does not send clock in echo mode (but maybe I'm wrong here). Can anyone explain whether the the JamMan or Echoplex or maybe any other device might fit my needs? BOB. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:22:52 -0800 From: James Reynolds To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Where to buy Echoplex pedal?? Message-Id: <199702052222.OAA15968@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Try Bananas at Large. (sorry, I don't remember the phone#, they're on the >web) They seem to have Echoplex stuff in stock much more often than >anywhere else, and from what I hear, have been buying them from other >dealers of late to fill their own orders. Banana's sales success with these >has everything to do with a sales manager that is an echoplex fanatic and >can therefore demo it successfully.... > Bananas at Large 1504 Fourth Street San Rafael, CA 94901 Phone (415)457-7600 Fax (415)457-9148 bananas@bananas.com www.bananas.com ------------------------------ Date: 05 Feb 97 20:02:06 EST From: Teed Rockwell <74164.3703@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" , Stickwire Subject: Teed at AACM Message-ID: <970206010206_74164.3703_GHQ91-2@CompuServe.COM> Even though I've been off this list for a while, I'm hoping that some of you in the Bay Area might be interested in my concert at the Ali Akbar College of Music, Saturday, February 8th at 7:30 P.M. The college is at 215 West End Ave in San Rafael, and is basically right off the Freeway (101) at the Central San Rafael exit. Call 415 454-6264 for more info. TIckets are $10, $7 for students and seniors. I will be playing first, for about 30-40 minutes followed by a vocalist and then a Sitarist. All of the musicians are long time students of Ali Akbar, and are well worth hearing. I will be playing Raga Patdeep with a tabla player, but I'm throwing in a few curve balls I haven't even told the College about. Most importantly, I will be using my Oberheim Digital Echoplex, which will enable me to create rich contrapuntal textures in what is traditionaly a monophonic muscial form. I've been working on it for some time, and I think I've created something really special with it. Hope you can be there Teed ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 00:33:01 -0400 From: Jeff Schwartz To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Teed at AACM Message-ID: <32F95EFD.3EF6@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good luck at the gig. I was anxious from the subject line that you had a beef with the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians! -- Jeff Schwartz jeffs@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~jeffs/main.html --------------------------------