------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 33 Today's Topics: hi loopers [ RA336@aol.com ] Re: hi loopers [ "Stephen P. Goodman" ] Jamman Upgrades [ Kevin Simonson ] RE: Mutator [ "Hogan, Greg" ] Re: Musicianship, live technique, et [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ] Re: RE: Mutator [ KILLINFO@aol.com ] Re: Jamman Upgrades [ sharkey@texas.net (james rhodes) ] Re: Musicianship, live technique, et [ ] Re: Anti-MIDI looping [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: Some ideas... [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: Anti-MIDI looping [ BobbyZZZ@aol.com ] Some of us never left [ "Bailey, Jim" ] midi echoplex [ KemMc@aol.com ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:52:48 -0500 (EST) From: RA336@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: hi loopers Message-ID: <970217165247_2027214659@emout18.mail.aol.com> hey everybody... just back from a month in San Francisco where I was working on a record with producer Jerry Harrison... did buncha looping and gutteral guitar abuses abounded on this waht could be a very interesting record by irish singer Noella Hutton... guitar bud Joe Gore also attended and contributed some of his wonderling tremed-up peaksnuf... a joy to work with him and drummer Prairie Prince... also, had a chance to see Joe Gore's (one of them anyway) band "Oranj Symphonette" at the Great American Music Hall... they were really quite fabulous doing their head (and full body) nod to composer Henry Mancini... Oranj has a cd out which i will most highly recommend you get... all best, Robby ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:14:03 -0800 From: "Stephen P. Goodman" To: Subject: Re: hi loopers Message-Id: <199702172214.PAA28162@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > just back from a month in San Francisco where I was working on a record with > producer Jerry Harrison... Ask him if "The Red And The Black" will ever be released in the US, would you? It was his first solo effort, but it was only by virtue of being in England in '81 that I got a vinyl copy. I'd LOVE to get a CD with this on it, if not also the inevitable 'extras not included in the initial release' tracks. I was always dismayed that it was the only Talking Heads' member effort that DIDN'T get released in the States. I didn't know he was working on this coast... then again, (Talking) Heads being what they were/are/might be, who knows? Cheers! Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.primenet.com/~sgoodman/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 01:55:33 -0500 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Musicianship, live technique, etc... Message-ID: <199702180155_MC2-1163-FE2D@compuserve.com> Romeo sez ... > it seems like we're having two monologues rather than a conversation. > One problem I've been having is that the music just goes on and on > and there aren't any breaks... > it feels like a need to keep the music going no matter what, and > this seems really tiring after a while, like "hey, we're trying to > overload your circuits, relentlessly". > I'm very interested in how you loopers deal with this, since looping > essentially means endless music. I haven't found a way to deal with this, but I recognize it as a problem as well ... Looping improvs with several loopers are essentially different from solo loops. I did a couple of live loops with 2 other loopers and we weren't really happy with the outcome just because of this ... no breaks etc. I guess it takes a lot of looping improv hours together to find ways to opening this up, and enabling open spaces and interesting dynamic changes to happen. Has anyone found good recipes? Michael Peters 100041.247@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 03:34:33 -0500 From: future perfect To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Musicianship, live technique, etc... Message-ID: <33096999.67F6@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Peters wrote: > > Romeo sez ... > > > it seems like we're having two monologues rather than a conversation. > > One problem I've been having is that the music just goes on and on > > and there aren't any breaks... > > it feels like a need to keep the music going no matter what, and > > this seems really tiring after a while, like "hey, we're trying to > > overload your circuits, relentlessly". > > I'm very interested in how you loopers deal with this, since looping > > essentially means endless music. > > I haven't found a way to deal with this, but I recognize it as a problem as > well ... Looping improvs with several loopers are essentially different > from solo loops. I did a couple of live loops with 2 other loopers and we > weren't really happy with the outcome just because of this ... no breaks > etc. I guess it takes a lot of looping improv hours together to find ways > to opening this up, and enabling open spaces and interesting dynamic > changes to happen. Has anyone found good recipes? > > Michael Peters > > 100041.247@compuserve.com > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters One idea is to set predetermined time limits on pieces...bring an alarm clock, something to totally disrupt the flow. It is also imperative to listen to each other, the audience can tell if there is little or no interaction between the musicians, and if a partner is not interested in what you are playing, then its unlikely the audience will be too. When we play for an audience, the other musicians become the audience too. They listen, we react, the audience reacts and it helps the music along. Visual cues are imperative in improvised music, this is part of the interaction, and it shows we're listening to each other. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:33:27 -0700 (CST) From: Kevin Simonson To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jamman Upgrades Message-Id: <199702181533.AA226010007@eagle.uis.edu> Content-Type: text Content-Length: 348 FYI: Rogue Music is selling the Jamman upgrade chips for 18$ a piece. They also take trades! -- Kevin Simonson * AS/400 Application Development Team University of Illinois-Springfield * Programmer / Analyst Computer Science, et al. * Norwest Mortgage, Inc. simonson@eagle.uis.edu * Springfield, IL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 22:57:00 -0500 From: "Hogan, Greg" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: Mutator Message-Id: <9702181604.AA13957@beryllium.lexicon.com> Jeff asked: "Any suggestions for books or web sites to teach me the difference between a VCO and a VCA without hurting my tiny brain?" What I have found to be the best list of resources for all things ausio is the Mix bookshelf catalog which is available from them if you call 1-800-233-9604. Best regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:04:29 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Musicianship, live technique, etc... Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hello Loopers, > >I have some thoughts I'd like to share with you and I'd like to get your >input on them, if you have any. > These are great questions that any improvisor has to face, and the problems are made worse by the dense and often static nature of looping music. >First of all, when working with other musicians, how important is >communication while playing, especially when all of the material is 90 to >100% improvised? I mean like giving each other cues, or just staying in >touch with the other guy/guys to see where they're at. > For one thing, you don't have to look at each other to communicate. Ideally, you should be able to communicate all of your intentions entirely musically. That said, it doesn't always work. In my trio, with 2 musicians that I've played with intensely for 7 and 9 years respectively, we rarely look at each other, because we've learned to get to that "deep listening" space pretty quickly. Usually, we only communicate visually to start or end pieces. But it takes a long time to get to that kind of state with other musicians. When playing with people with whom I'm less familiar, I do tend to rely more on visual cues, body language, etc. >The reason I bring this up is that I've noticed that when I work with my >new partner, that we almost never make eye contact and musically I'm >finding it hard to connect - it seems like we're having two monologues >rather than a conversation. I know that in some types of music this is >desireable, but I can't imagine that this will have satisfying results >when this is the only way people work together. > You might consider a few exercises in improvisation. Some of these feel really forced and self-conscious when you first try them, and can be surprisingly difficult even for experienced musicians. The idea is to develop a set of tools for improvising, kind of like licks that you fall back on while thinking of your next brilliant statement in a solo. Here are some things off the top of my head that I've tried in various settings: Call and response: instead of both of you playing at the same time, try aalternating phrases, where one player initiates a phrase and the other completes it. Call and response is one of the deepest musical structures there is, it almost seems hard-wired into our consciousness, look at most traditional african music for example. You can set up call and response phrases while both of you are playing also, by alternating background/foreground roles within each phrase. This is a GREAT exercise to get you started listening to each other. Another thing that works is to set up a game plan for the improvised piece before you start. Try thinking of a structure, like alternating crescendos and decrescendos, or somthing. Try writing out improvisational structures away from your instruments and then playing them. This may feel counter-intuitive to the process of improvising, but the idea is to develop your sensitivity. Think of it as the equivalent of doing scales. Try setting up musical cues in advance, for example, say you decide on a certain phrase that when played by one of you triggers a dynamic change, or the end of the piece. >Secondly: I'm beginning to understand breaks in composition. I mean >dead spaces, quiet spaces, quieter spaces - increasing dynamic range. >When we work together, one recipe we use is one person will do a complex >drone, the other will do rhythmic sequential stuff. One problem I've been >having is that the music just goes on and on and there aren't any >breaks... it feels like a need to keep the music going no matter what, and >this seems really tiring after a while, like "hey, we're trying to >overload your circuits, relentlessly". > >I find it easier to work with people's attention when one takes down the >levels and gives their brain a chance to breathe, then re-engaging them in >the process. > Again, this comes down to a matter of listening and communicating. Again, by trying some explicit exercises in dynamics can help develop your sensitivity. You can try things like saying in advance, "We're going to change dynamic levels drastically every 60 seconds", and try to stick to that. Try doing some extreme dynamic playing, alternating playing as loud and hard as you can with playing as quietly and gently as you can. When you're doing the structure you mentioned above, with one player doing a drone and the other playing rhythms, try to introduce dynamic shifts within each of your parts, whether or not the other player tracks the shifts it will still make the music feel more varied. >I'm very interested in how you loopers deal with this, since looping >essentially means endless music. > >Romeo F. > >PS: A little side note - I was asked to provide some sound installations >for an event I was also playing at. I decided to come up with some audio >"fountains". I made a tape of my modular synthesizer, plus mixing in >some other tape material. The idea was to play them on some custom tape >decks that will play a cassette endlessly, in mono, not repeating the >music for 4 hours. I also kept in mind that these "fountains" would be >playing in quieter spaces, away from the main events where people might be >relaxing or having conversations, so I made a point of letting the music >play, but then recording - often minutes - of dead silence or very quiet >passages. The music would stop as some fountains do periodically. I was >hoping this would provide both entertainment and relaxation or refuge. This sounds like a very cool project! ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: improv@peak.org self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/ "A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?" -Captain Beefheart ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 15:36:01 -0500 (EST) From: KILLINFO@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: Mutator Message-ID: <970218153559_1348316320@emout14.mail.aol.com> Geetings, Jeff asked: "Any suggestions for books or web sites to teach me the difference between a VCO and a VCA without hurting my tiny brain?" Well there are lots of places you could go for such info including some of the tomes available in "Mix Bookshelf." However, if all you want to know is the simple decoding of the above acronyms I suppose I'll try to be of help. They are terms from the dim, dark past of music synthesis. VCA = voltage controlled amplifier VCO = voltage controlled oscillator VCF = voltage controlled filter. Also you may run across... LFO = Low frequency oscillator. CV = Control voltage There are a whole host of these little 2 and 3-letter terms. I am not prepared at the moment to explain these much further (it would take much longer than I have on my rather short lunch break) except to say that they are some of the basic components of early electronic music synthesis. Use your imagination a little and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out how one would use these to create and control a sound *electronically*... Cheers, Ted ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:39:35 -0600 (CST) From: sharkey@texas.net (james rhodes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Jamman Upgrades Message-Id: <199702182039.OAA01074@mail1.texas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hi folks, im new to the loopers delight ,, and i have a couple of questions: 1) how do i contact Rogue Music? 2) how many chips does it take to max out the Jamman? Im a Chapmen Stick(R) player ,,who JUST recieved a Jamman TODAY... i havent really had the time today to play with it,,,but i'll be experimenting later though,,,any tips would be appreciated... thanks, james sharkey@texas.net >FYI: > >Rogue Music is selling the Jamman upgrade chips for 18$ a piece. >They also take trades! > >-- >Kevin Simonson * AS/400 Application Development Team >University of Illinois-Springfield * Programmer / Analyst >Computer Science, et al. * Norwest Mortgage, Inc. >simonson@eagle.uis.edu * Springfield, IL > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) From: TO: "Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re: Musicianship, live technique, etc... Message-Id: <199702182248.OAA19692@ridge.spiritone.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 93 A.S.P. wrote: (snip) >First of all, when working with other musicians, how important is >communication while playing, especially when all of the material is 90 to >100% improvised? I mean like giving each other cues, or just staying in >touch with the other guy/guys to see where they're at. >The reason I bring this up is that I've noticed that when I work with my >new partner, that we almost never make eye contact and musically I'm >finding it hard to connect - it seems like we're having two monologues >rather than a conversation. I know that in some types of music this is >desirable, but I can't imagine that this will have satisfying results >when this is the only way people work together. This is a very interesting concept. I find that the more musically "in-tune" you are with the person you are working with, the more you can simply ignore them. The less "in-tune" you are, the more you have to make eye-contact etc. in order to flow well together. It is possible that you and your partner are simply not all that compatible. However, I also think that it is important to understand that compatibility is not vitally necessary in order to create great music. As long as you are both skilled, your individual skills can make up for it. But also keep in mind that for most styles of music, communication of some form or another (whether innate or practiced) *must* be obtained in order to have functionality. > >Secondly: I'm beginning to understand breaks in composition. I mean >dead spaces, quiet spaces, quieter spaces - increasing dynamic range. >When we work together, one recipe we use is one person will do a complex >drone, the other will do rhythmic sequential stuff. One problem I've been >having is that the music just goes on and on and there aren't any >breaks... it feels like a need to keep the music going no matter what, and >this seems really tiring after a while, like "hey, we're trying to >overload your circuits, relentlessly". >I find it easier to work with people's attention when one takes down the >levels and gives their brain a chance to breathe, then re-engaging them in >the process. >I'm very interested in how you loopers deal with this, since looping >essentially means endless music. > >Romeo F. You can put dead spaces into your loops. Most loopers, though, seem to go for the wall of sound ideal. In this instance, "dead" spaces can be obtained in a variety of ways, such as the dynamics of the sounds occurring *on top* of the loop, having a very short feedback of a delay based looped (i.e. only 2 or 3 repetitions of the loop), having dynamic changes *within* the loop (such as with a long loop of over 10 sec.), using a variety of tonal options within the loop (dark, long sounds with staccato brights tones, the use of more than one tone generating instrument {guitar, flute, synth, samples, percussion, etc.}) etc., etc., etc. > >PS: A little side note - I was asked to provide some sound installations >for an event I was also playing at. I decided to come up with some audio >"fountains". I made a tape of my modular synthesizer, plus mixing in >some other tape material. The idea was to play them on some custom tape >decks that will play a cassette endlessly, in mono, not repeating the >music for 4 hours. I also kept in mind that these "fountains" would be >playing in quieter spaces, away from the main events where people might be >relaxing or having conversations, so I made a point of letting the music >play, but then recording - often minutes - of dead silence or very quiet >passages. The music would stop as some fountains do periodically. I was >hoping this would provide both entertainment and relaxation or refuge. This is a *hip* idea. Can I steal it? 93 Rev. Doubt-Goat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:17:24 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Anti-MIDI looping Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> The plex can sync to pulses, using the BeatSync input. Does that help? > >... I didn't even know there was a >"beat sync" input. really? I gotta get from behind my synths sometime and >see what's going on in the rack more often. If this is what I think it >may be it could proabbly take a +5 gate trigger from on of the old >CV/gate sequencers or analogue synths. > >Hmmm, it might be worth a try... Definitally. It also accepts smaller pulses or even audio triggers. Put the Sync parameter to IN. Tell us about the results! Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:18:18 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Some ideas... Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" jj said: >Pardon if this seems naive in the ways of loopage, but I'm still >very much captivated by one of the simple ideas Brian Eno >cooked up in making that first looping delay system for Fripp, >and that Eno still uses quite a bit (don't know about Fripp): >basically different loops of differing lengths played over >each other such that the ways they will interact musically >is unpredictable. I've had my Jamman for awhile, but have >only recently began to explore this via recording one loop >to one track on my DA-88, then another to another, etc., and >listening to the end results. The problem with this is that >there is not as much spontaneity as having them loop over >each other live (I'd *love* to see a looping machine do >that). Well, get together with another JamBeeing for a session! "non-musician" Dave wrote: *** Start out with four (for this example) simple drones(or sound loops or whatever) and periodically measure some measurable variable of the drones (some examples: 1) number of frequency components in the drone above/below x hertz 2) delay of the drone above or below its starting value 3) reverberation of the drone 4) distortion in the drone 5) volume). I don't even know if some of these variables can be measured but you get the idea. Anyway have the drones react to one another based on some set rules, like if drone1 has x number of frequency components above 5kHz then adjust the distortion of drone2 by some function represented by f1(x). Or if the delay of drone3 is y seconds, then add f2(y) frequency components to drone 4 whose values are given by f3(y, f2(y)). Maybe in addition to rules to alter the drones you have rules governing the death and birth of other drones. What you'd have instead of a few sound loops with different periods where the interest would be to see how they recombine to sound different at different times would be sound that actually react to other sounds and can give birth to a sound or hook up with another sound to kill a third sound off. Sure it's pretty much impossible or at least super-hyper daunting but it sure does make ya wet yer pants with the possibilities. *** This does not look realistic, but highly fascinating. The parameters would be others, but a frequency analisis could be a good start. jj again: >Anybody think this is remotely possible with the devices we have today? >Any other thoughts on how to put some fresh, (relatively) unpredictable >or at least systemic experimentation into looping? I think we will care about such type of creativity, once we have a multiple looper, recording on HD. In the computer, the user should be able to create such things. Maybe MAX will be expanded to use with audio files? My personal taste: I tried to create several kinds of automations for music, but I do not even like a (automatic) touch-wah, if I can have a (manual) pedal to control the frequency to my taste! Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:53:19 -0500 (EST) From: BobbyZZZ@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Anti-MIDI looping Message-ID: <970219125319_1745979909@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 2/19/97 1:41:49 AM, you wrote: >>> The plex can sync to pulses, using the BeatSync input. Does that help? >> >>... I didn't even know there was a >>"beat sync" input. really? I gotta get from behind my synths sometime and >>see what's going on in the rack more often. If this is what I think it >>may be it could proabbly take a +5 gate trigger from on of the old >>CV/gate sequencers or analogue synths. >> >>Hmmm, it might be worth a try... > >Definitally. It also accepts smaller pulses or even audio triggers. Put the >Sync parameter to IN. > >Tell us about the results! >Matthias hi all! i need to decide between the Echoplex and the TC 2290 for delays and looping for live work. has anyone been able to contact Oberheim for service lately? i have heard some SAD things about their support lately....can the echoplex sync up to MIDI clock? we only have one MIDI-CV converter in our band so far....any of you out there use the TC 2290??? i can get my hands on one for pretty cheap, and it's been memory expanded already...please help if you're out there :-) bobby devito/lvx nova http://virtu.sar.usf.edu/~devito ------------------------------ Date:Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:55:00 -0500 From: "Bailey, Jim" To: looppost Subject: Some of us never left Message-ID: <330B8400@pcsmtp.cmail.southam.ca> > I don't know of anyone eager to return to the days of >twin reel-to-reels. >John Pollock Hey! I'm still doin' that street (check out my section on the list when it gets posted - I just sent it in last week). Mainly for financial reasons, but also because I don't do enough playing these days to justify the cost. Besides, I still like what happens to the sounds sometimes, not to mention the little surprises that occasionally come out of nowhere. OK, so those can be annoying as well, but I've seen many complaints here about the electronic gear too ;-). I've only really heard Fripp's work with the new type of kit, so can't really judge what others are doing with what's out there. Although his soundscapes and such are very interesting, they are still quite different from the old "Frippertronics" stuff. It's a bit like the difference between a Mellotron and a string synth, or sampler even. While both serve the same purpose, they sound considerably different (unless it's a sample of a Mellotron :-]). I don't want to sound like a ranter, or overly sensitive, but yes, there are still some of us out there. Didn't someone ask about this recently? If so, drop me a line. Jim B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 04:06:31 GMT From: Mark HEWINS To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Some of us never left Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970220040234.384f8aac@musart.sonnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Heloopers >> I don't know of anyone eager to return to the days of >>twin reel-to-reels. >Hey! I'm still doin' that street >Besides, I still like what happens to the sounds sometimes, not to mention >the little surprises that occasionally come out of nowhere. OK, so those can >be annoying as well, but I've seen many complaints here about the electronic >gear too ;-). >I don't want to sound like a ranter, or overly sensitive, but yes, there are >still some of us out there. Didn't someone ask about this recently? If so, >drop me a line. I got an old Revox B77 MkII (for tape echo and looping only) about 2 months ago-my choice. Does anyone have any information about the varispeed *remote control* for this machine? The remote enables the pitch shift of +/- 7 instead of the usual +/- 2 available from the front panel. I want to make it into a foot pedal control.... Any suggestions? I am at my wits end here in London... Can't find anybody to tell me.... P&L>M MARK HEWINS < http://www.musart.co.uk/hewins.htm > (try the new CHORD PICKER) < http://www.musart.co.uk/chords.htm > OR THE EMBRYONIC, 'SOUND SERVER' < http://www.musart.co.uk/fram/samfram.htm > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:27:36 -0500 (EST) From: KemMc@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: midi echoplex Message-ID: <970220002735_-1876688574@emout16.mail.aol.com> Hi, loopist I'm using an echoplex pro with about three min. of record time on board and im trying to get the hang of syncing to midi and recording guitar in sync with the midi. Sequencer driving the echoplex sometimes and echo driving the seq. sometimes. Could Kim or Matthias give me a step by step set up for the plex, on both procedures. And also what key combination resets the echoplex back to factory parameters. thanks guys ,the Echoplex Digital Pro is the greatest creative booster I've ever experienced . what a great unit ! thanks again. Kem McNair --------------------------------