------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 40 Today's Topics: Fingerpaint Live [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ] Re: Kyma [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: more on Kyma..... [ matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias ] Re: more on Kyma..... [ Paolo Valladolid ] Re: more on Kyma..... [ Jim Coker ] Re: Re: more on Kyma..... [ Jim Coker ] Living on a rock [ jim@manager.com (Jim Morgan) ] cu-eu to ship [ MiqSk8@aol.com ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 00:03:56 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Fingerpaint Live Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Loopers, The ambient/space music project, Fingerpaint, will be performing live on Thursday March 20th at 9pm at Planet X in College Park Maryland. Chill out and sip some coffee as we weave our sonic threads....... Then on Saturday March 22nd, Fingerpaint will be perfroming in the Mid-Atlantic Loop Show at the LionFish Coffeehouse in Philadelphia Pa. For more info on this event check out: http://atomsun.harvard.edu/broadside/loopshow.html For sound files and more information on Fingerpaint visit our site at: www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html GO there frequently....... Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:26:26 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Kyma Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Neil said >Also know there's lots of times I've capturing something with JamMan that I >wished I would have first layered and multi-tracked into the computer >(Logic Audio being my fav), before it became permanently mixed in mono! Definitally! If only Logic Audio had the features to record as live as with the Plex... We have been writing about this on the list, but as long as the thing does not exist, we will come back to the idea. Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 00:26:43 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: more on Kyma..... Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim answered me: >In reference to Matthias' questions, most parameters on sound >objects (such as delay times, frequency settings, filter bandwidth >and frequency) are controllable in real time, and without glitches. >Put an lfo on a short delay, and you get a flanger. (Delay lengths can >be specified in a number of ways, such as in seconds, or samples, >or relative to something else) Control signals can come from midi, >or all sorts of other things, frequency trackers, envelope followers, >other audio signals, or signals built by processing other signals. >When I was there, a Peavey PC1600 fader box (16 programmable >midi faders and assorted buttons) was set up to >control sound parameters. This is what I used during the looping >test (no foot controller available). I see... but this I can do on my PCM80, as long as its just controlling parameters of a delay. I was thinking about the loop specific functions like Tap, Multiply, Undo, or rather sampler type functions like restarting the actual loop or changing to another loop and so on. Probably those functions will have to be created and I wondered how difficult this might be. >Another nice patch involved a "harmonic resonator", a special >kind of filter that resonates at a given pitch and all it's >harmonics. also available on PCM70/80 >Probably the most unique capabilities of the system revolve around >it's analysis and resynthesis capabilities. Their latest software >version comes w/ a configureable vocoder w/ up to 70 filter bands. >In addition to real time vocoding, you can analyize a sample >(drums, vocals and animal sounds work best, due to their widely >varying formants) to build a time-varying filter bank, and then use >this filter bank to process a live signal. ... >For really hard-core stuff, you can use an FFT analysis to convert >the signal from the time domain into the freqency domain, and do >processing there (such as stretching or scaling harmonics, pitch >and time shifting, etc), and then resynthesize the result using >an oscillator bank. This is the approach used by Digital Performer >1.7 and others to do pitch shifting w/o ugly artifacts. Kyma >can do this in real time, minus a 1/4sec delay due to FFT >windowing issues Interesting. This could certainly be used to colour and modulate loops. And in this case, the 250ms delay (thats a lot!) could be hidden somehow. >The only dissapointment I had was with the frequency tracker. >It works amazingly well w/ vocals, but didn't do so great on >a guitar. The response time was at least as good as a Roland >GI-10 midi converter and it did track vibrato and ... > One big change that would make >it better would be to use hexaphonic input a-la GK2, which would >restrict the pitch guessing range, and avoid multi-string noises. Did you play monophonic for this test, or is it even able to detect chords of a monophonic guitar?!? >Currently Kyma only has 2 inputs and 2 outputs, but they are working >on increasing this. They get many requests to increase the >number of outputs, but Kurt said that this was the first time they >had a solid reason for having multiple inputs, ... Ahh... we will end up making our own VGx, more serious, with all in it! >Kyma can run simutaneously w/ a >sequencer or MAX on a modest MAC or PC. Symbolic Sound is also >working on a PC-card interface so you can use Kyma w/ a laptop. Does it also work without any computer, on stage? Did you check the reverb sounds? If the KYMA replaces two Plexes and my two Lexicons, its not that expensive any more! >If you're really interested in more about Kyma, you can get the manual >for $35+shipping, and there's also a good review in the July '95 >issue of Electronic Musician, and, of course, they have a web >site. Thank you for this extended review, Jim! Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 14:23:02 -0800 (PST) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: more on Kyma..... Message-Id: <199703082223.OAA04668@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The possiblity of being able to drive a Kyma/Capybara system directly from a guitar without MIDI sounds pretty exciting. I wonder if there is a way to save performance configurations so that the Capybara can be operated standalone (without a host computer); controlled only by a guitar and a footpedal. Paolo ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:11:00 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: some echoplex playing hints Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The list has been sort of quiet. I guess you're all as busy as me these days! An echoplex user asked me a question privately that I think is sort of interesting, so I'm posting it along with my response. Hope it gives you guys some good ideas: dmgraph@bway.net (David Myers) sez: >A question has >arisen for me which perhaps you can answer. When loops grow pretty long >and the material gets atmospheric, I want to re-establish a groove--but one >LED blink per cycle (which might be once in 10 seconds) isn't sufficient >visual feedback. I'm sure that the MIDI clock out is one source which >could help. I know Anatek makes the "Pocket Sync" which will derive FSK >from MIDI, and I suppose I could slap together some CMOS clock divider/LED >solution, but do you imagine an easier way? Need an LED blip once or twice >a second, I'd say; the old Deltalab Echotron was pretty good at this .... Building hardware is one way, although I think it would be hard to really make it versatile enough. The echoplex generates midi clock based on how long the loop is and on what you have set the 8ths/beat parameter to. So your loops would always have to be the same number of beats or you would have to reset the parameter a lot, and I think there are easier ways. One idea is with your looping technique. With an atmospheric loop, you may want to try introducing a little bit of groove with each pass, building a rhythm. So you overdub something, and wait for it to come back again, so that you start hearing the rhythm. Slowly add more things and get it in time. I do that sometimes. Trouble with that approach, is that it can take a while before you have anything rhythmic again, and there is still room to screw it up! Some other approaches to try involve the echoplex's features. If you want to add a rhythmic groove to an ambient loop, you can simply redefine the loop time to fit the new groove! You do this with the Multiply-Record combination, which allows you to redefine the loop time without loosing the material already there. The Echoplex will either truncate the loop if the new length is shorter, or add some of it again if it is longer. Here's how you might do that: - you have a spacey ambient loop happening and everyone is falling asleep - Time to dance! Press multiply, and start playing a samba rhythm. - The echoplex keeps the old ambient thing, while the new rhythm is overdubbed. Since you are multiplying, you can keep playing as long as you like or until you run out of memory. - When you reach the end of your new rhythmic figure, do not press Multiply like you normally would. Instead, end the Multiply by pressing Record. The loop length will be redefined with that point being the end. So your new samba will loop in time, at whatever tempo feels right, with the old ambience underneath. The only weird thing will be that the old ambient loop will have a discontinuity where you redefined the length. Since this occurs right at the downbeat, it will probably be ok. Another idea is to approach recording ambient parts in a different way. By using a Record-Insert combination, you can give the echoplex a short cycle length with a much longer loop. The multiple display will count away, giving you a much better tempo indication. Here's how to do that: - Set the InsertMode parameter to INS. - Press Record and start playing cluster chords with an infinite- reverb-pitch-shifted-down-two-octaves-totally-wet effects patch. - After one beat or one bar or whatever amount of time you want to see as your tempo, press Insert. - Keep on playing those cluster chords. Maybe throw in some whammy. - The echoplex's multiple display will be counting up at the tempo you defined. Everything you are playing will continue being recorded just as if it's a normal loop. - When you are done, press Insert again to start the loop repeating. - The Multiple display will now be counting, giving you a visible indication of tempo while your unrhythmic ambient loop is playing away! Hope these ideas help.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 23:47:53 -0800 From: Jim Coker To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: more on Kyma..... Message-ID: <33226B29.2544@interaccess.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthias Grob wrote: > > Jim answered me: > >In reference to Matthias' questions, most parameters on sound > >objects (such as delay times, frequency settings, filter bandwidth > >and frequency) are controllable in real time, and without glitches. > >Put an lfo on a short delay, and you get a flanger. (Delay lengths can > >be specified in a number of ways, such as in seconds, or samples, > >or relative to something else) Control signals can come from midi, > >or all sorts of other things, frequency trackers, envelope followers, > >other audio signals, or signals built by processing other signals. > >When I was there, a Peavey PC1600 fader box (16 programmable > >midi faders and assorted buttons) was set up to > >control sound parameters. This is what I used during the looping > >test (no foot controller available). > > I see... but this I can do on my PCM80, as long as its just controlling > parameters of a delay. > I was thinking about the loop specific functions like Tap, Multiply, Undo, > or rather sampler type functions like restarting the actual loop or > changing to another loop and so on. Probably those functions will have to > be created and I wondered how difficult this might be. Well, there's no tap tempo control that comes with the unit (I asked), but I don't think it would be difficult to build one. As far as the echoplex-type functions go, it depends on your goal. If you want to duplicate the interface of an echoplex, you can probably do it, but I can't say how difficult it would be, and I don't think it would be the best way to approach loop programming with Kyma. Since you can have a large number of loops and samplers running at once, and there are numerous controls available on them, some of the metaphors that apply with the echoplex don't make much sense. For example, multiply on the echoplex affects the original loop, whereas on Kyma, I would be more likely to achive a similar result by adding a new, concurrent loop whose time is a multiple of the first. This would leave the original loop available for individual processing. Of course, everyone has their own preference about how such features should be configured, but a big part of Kyma is that the user has many options on how to organize things. > > >Another nice patch involved a "harmonic resonator", a special > >kind of filter that resonates at a given pitch and all it's > >harmonics. > > also available on PCM70/80 > > >Probably the most unique capabilities of the system revolve around > >it's analysis and resynthesis capabilities. Their latest software > >version comes w/ a configureable vocoder w/ up to 70 filter bands. > >In addition to real time vocoding, you can analyize a sample > >(drums, vocals and animal sounds work best, due to their widely > >varying formants) to build a time-varying filter bank, and then use > >this filter bank to process a live signal. > ... > > >For really hard-core stuff, you can use an FFT analysis to convert > >the signal from the time domain into the freqency domain, and do > >processing there (such as stretching or scaling harmonics, pitch > >and time shifting, etc), and then resynthesize the result using > >an oscillator bank. This is the approach used by Digital Performer > >1.7 and others to do pitch shifting w/o ugly artifacts. Kyma > >can do this in real time, minus a 1/4sec delay due to FFT > >windowing issues > > Interesting. This could certainly be used to colour and modulate loops. And > in this case, the 250ms delay (thats a lot!) could be hidden somehow. The delay is intrinsic to all FFT algorithms. The processing occurs by taking short samples (called windows) of the input, and doing the FFT on each window. Longer windows give more accurate frequency results, shorter ones give a better indication of when events occur in the signal. The windowing is what causes the delay. I do think it is adjustable, so shorter delays can be traded for some accuracy. (caveat: That's a very short and imprecise description of a complex signal processing task) > >The only dissapointment I had was with the frequency tracker. > >It works amazingly well w/ vocals, but didn't do so great on > >a guitar. The response time was at least as good as a Roland > >GI-10 midi converter and it did track vibrato and > ... > > One big change that would make > >it better would be to use hexaphonic input a-la GK2, which would > >restrict the pitch guessing range, and avoid multi-string noises. > > Did you play monophonic for this test, or is it even able to detect chords > of a monophonic guitar?!? The tracker can't handle chords, that is truly a difficult task. It is discussed in the Curtis Roads book I mentioned earlier (as is the FFT stuff). > > >Currently Kyma only has 2 inputs and 2 outputs, but they are working > >on increasing this. They get many requests to increase the > >number of outputs, but Kurt said that this was the first time they > >had a solid reason for having multiple inputs, ... > > Ahh... we will end up making our own VGx, more serious, with all in it! > > >Kyma can run simutaneously w/ a > >sequencer or MAX on a modest MAC or PC. Symbolic Sound is also > >working on a PC-card interface so you can use Kyma w/ a laptop. > > Does it also work without any computer, on stage? Nope, the computer is the controller, where all patches are stored and other important things happen. It also, obviously, lowers the price of the Capybara, which has no front panel controls. There is a midi-map function so you can use program changes to load new sounds. The "stuck-to-a-computer" issue is one the Sym. Sound is aware of. They had said that at AES some engineers from Eventide had asked if they'd had people complain about requiring the computer. They are working on a PC card for laptops, so that makes it a bit less of a problem. The way I see it is that they leverage so many capabilities from the computer that the restriction is well-justified. > Did you check the reverb sounds? If the KYMA replaces two Plexes and my two > Lexicons, its not that expensive any more! I don't know of any serious reverb programs that come with the unit, but it has Delays, Comb Filters and such that can be used to build reverbs. There are some general reverb algorithms covered in signal processing publications, but if you're looking to replace the reverb in a PCM80, its not gonna happen easily. This brings up the issue of what Kyma is all about. The fx boxes from Lexicon, Eventide and others come with great programs that are ready-to-use and are targeted for music production, but even though they have relatively flexible programming options, their limitations are rigid: They have a fixed processing & memory capacity (for both delays and programs), a limited number of processing algorithms (i.e. chorus, flange, pitch shift, reverb), and limited number of ways to combine those algorithms. Kyma is an open-ended box, it is what the user makes of it. Symbolic Sound provides a number of useful processing algorithms, software to combine them in new and interesting ways, many intriguing and instructive example programs, and ongoing software and hardware updates that avoid obsolecence. It blurs the distinction between synthesizer, effects processor, hard disk recorder, sampler and sequencer. It is a little bit of all these things, but by combining them all it becomes something different entirely. The first demonstration Carla showed me was a piece that she had created for Kyma. The complex program turned the Capybara into an instrument, in that it created synthesized sounds, an effects processor, in that it processed her voice in real time, a sampler, as it played & modified sounds from disk, a sequencer, in that sounds were layered and ordered by program events, and a real-time studio or composition tool, in that the operation of all these processes were interrelated, and she was able to control the whole process through vocal inflections and midi sliders. Kyma is a solution for those who have become frustrated with the limitations of the equipment they are working with, and want to create an instrument of their own. It will not likely replace a Lexicon reverb unit in anyone's rack, but reveberant sounds built using it can be new and unique. It may not harmonize as effortlessly as an Eventide, but it has numerous tools for modifying pitch. It is a toolset for creating music, and thus the user has both the exciting and somewhat daunting task of making something out of it. jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 23:49:27 -0800 From: Jim Coker To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: more on Kyma..... Message-ID: <33226B87.26A7@interaccess.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paolo Valladolid wrote: > > The possiblity of being able to drive a Kyma/Capybara system directly > from a guitar without MIDI sounds pretty exciting. It has 2 audio ins and 2 outs, plus midi in & out. > > I wonder if there is a way to save performance configurations so that > the Capybara can be operated standalone (without a host computer); > controlled only by a guitar and a footpedal. Nope, see the longer post. jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 13:58:12 -0800 From: Jim Coker To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re: more on Kyma..... Message-ID: <33233274.4F4E@interaccess.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry if you have line wrap problems on that posting, or if it gets a little fanatic at the end, I was answering late last night. Kyma is a very neat system, it blew my mind and I haven't recovered yet. jim ------------------------------ Date: 10 Mar 1997 01:14:09 GMT From: jim@manager.com (Jim Morgan) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Living on a rock Message-Id: <4262653950.106891439@manager.com> I'm not a loopster yet, but it's something I've been trying to get into for the last year or two. My problem is that I live in Hong Kong, and can't find anywhere that sells the Echoplex, which, I gather from various discussions around, is the mutt's nuts. So.... how can I get hold of an Echoplex plus pedal in this hi-tech hick town? Does anyone have a contact for the manufacturer so that I could find out if they have any dealers out here? Is anyone coming to Hong Kong with a spare few kilos of baggage allowance in the near future? Do I really need an Echoplex or is there something better by, say, Yamaha, who seem to have HK sewn up? Any answers to these questions would be appreciated. Meanwhile I'll continue to lurk and vicariously enjoy the idea of looping. Jim Morgan. Monday morning. Hong Kong. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:43:05 -0500 (EST) From: MiqSk8@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: cu-eu to ship Message-ID: <970310154303_-1171179366@emout05.mail.aol.com> i know it's not official, but in talking with obie today about getting a manual, dean fouts said that the updrade would be happening at the the end of this month! pricing was vague-i just bought mine and so he said it would be free, but again-NOT OFFICIAL! let's all hope and wait for an official word. --------------------------------