------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 50 Today's Topics: Re: SansAmp (was Stage monitors) [ jtaylor@scsn.net (Jay Taylor) ] Re: SansAmp (was Stage monitors) [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ] re: ancient tape squeak [ pk@mainstring.win.net (Pat Kirtley) ] Re: Soup Loops (was SansAmp (was Sta [ Floyd Miller ] Re: SansAmp (was Stage monitors) [ BobbyZZZ@aol.com ] Feedback, Mercedes and Boogie for Be [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hu ] Re: Looping in London 10-iv-97 [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hu ] ...tape squeak [ andre ] Re: Chapman Stick/Jamman MIDI [ andre ] Re: Looping in London 10-iv-97 [ Francis Leach ] 'Plex noise gate [ dmgraph@bway.net (David Myers) ] re: ancient tape squeak [ Kim Corbet ] Re: Looping Trombone and Accordion ( [ "kim corbet" ] RE: ancient tape squeak [ Michael Peters Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i've got a thd hot plate too, and it is a great unit. its function is to soak power headed for the speakers, just a little bit or completely. i run a marshall midi preamp into an engl amp and out to the hot plate and into a hughes and kettner red box III and into the tape machine. i think it sounds very good. i'm wondering what a sans amp would do at the front end. i can't recall thd's address. somewhere in washington or oregon. check one of the guitar magazines. they make great amps too. the hot plate got a favorable review in guitar player. it supposedly is the best of the lot. jay At 03:16 PM 3/28/97 -0600, you wrote: >> However, when I ran the SansAmp directly into the board, I could not get >> the warm sound I had using the Boogie power amp and speaker. >...............uh-oh. I'm going to pick up a SansAmp this afternoon and >was hoping it would allow me to leave the boogie at home now and then. >Warmth is such an important part of the soul of the guitar to me...looking >forward to see if the variety is enough compensation (at least for >rehearsals). Thanks for the details of your experimentation. > >> guitar into the PSA-1 --> Fender tube reverb --> Boogie tube power amp --> >> THD Hot plate --> Celestion Greenbacks. >..................what's a hot plate? > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:15:35 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: SansAmp (was Stage monitors) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 4:28 PM 3/28/97, Kim Corbet wrote: >If any of you guys wanna know about trombone, accordion or French onion >soup recipes, I'd be happy to reciprocate...I'm learning alot here. I'd love to hear about your experiences looping the accordian! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 02:02:15 From: pk@mainstring.win.net (Pat Kirtley) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: re: ancient tape squeak Message-ID: <977@mainstring.win.net> Michael Peters wrote: >I recently dug up my ancient Revox A77 and I'm planning to salvage a >number of old tapes (some of them more than 20 years old) and copy them to >DAT. The tapes carry recordings of my first jam sessions, looping >experiments, and compositions - musically not of high value but I love >them anyway of course. > >Unfortunately, some of the tapes (cheaper brands such as Shamrock and >Sony) have a tendency to rub off their coating very quickly. The effect is >a very high pitched squeaking noise which begins faintly and gets louder >and louder. The squeaking can also be heard on the recording - the music >gets modulated and distorted and is unusable. > >Cleaning the tape heads and tapes helps only for a couple of minutes. The >squeaking noise comes back. Especially on long pieces (and I did a number >of very long pieces) this is very annoying. > >If anyone has found a remedy for this problem, please let me know. This sounds like the irksome and well-known phenomenon called "stiction". There are several possible causes and a couple of remedies to try. This problem can occur under certain circumstances even with well-adjusted machines and high quality tapes. But there is a lot of tape made in the mid and late 70's that is now shedding like crazy due to binder formulation problems. That's a widespread problem. What's happening to cause the problem is that sticky residue coming off the tape is deposited (not just on the heads but on every bearing and guiding surface) and interacts with the moving tape in a high-frequency stick / slip interaction. It's exactly the same method by which the rosin on a violin bow causes the string to vibrate. If cleaning (of ALL tape-touching surfaces) doesn't provide a workable cure, inspect the surfaces to make sure they are truly clean and very smooth. Maybe in storage, the surfaces acquired a "patina" or even a slight etching of the metal surfaces. Normal cleaning wouldn't remove this. You can find out if this has happened by playing the tapes on a known good machine and see if the problem still occurs. If the machine isn't contributing to the problem, then it can be entirely due to tape shedding. There are two possible things to try in this case: 1. Lubricate the tape. Using a silicone-based lubricant, moisten a pad and use the tape machine in "play" (with the tape bypassing the head assembly) to move the tape past the lubricant applicator. You can experiment on a moderate length of tape to see if this will work. 2. Reduce the tape tension. On the A77, this is an internal electrical adjustment. Also, if the tapes are on 10 1/2" reels, you can reduce tension by setting to the reel-size switch on the front panel to 7". See if this makes a difference in the severity of the oxide buildup. If all else fails, carefully use your finger or a felt pad to gently press the tape against the play head during playback. It may damp the vibrations enough to allow a decent one-time transfer. Good luck! PK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 02:35:26 -0500 From: Floyd Miller To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Soup Loops (was SansAmp (was Stage monitors)) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970329023130.0068bf00@popmail.voicenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 4:28 PM 3/28/97, Kim Corbet wrote: >>If any of you guys wanna know about trombone, accordion or French onion >>soup recipes, I'd be happy to reciprocate...I'm learning alot here. and at 11:15 PM 3/28/97 -0800, Kim Flint wrote: > >I'd love to hear about your experiences looping the accordian! > >kim > And I'd like to know what French Onion Soup tastes like when looped :) **************** ********** Floyd Miller ****** floyd@voicenet.com ** http://www.voicenet.com/~floyd ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 03:39:47 -0500 (EST) From: BobbyZZZ@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: SansAmp (was Stage monitors) Message-ID: <970329033945_854241666@emout01.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 3/29/97 2:20:40 AM, you wrote: >At 4:28 PM 3/28/97, Kim Corbet wrote: >>If any of you guys wanna know about trombone, accordion or French onion >>soup recipes, I'd be happy to reciprocate...I'm learning alot here. > >I'd love to hear about your experiences looping the accordian! > >kim y'know, i'd be into the trombone loops myself, THOSE would be some interesting loops....but of course the accordian would be great too....:-) bobby d ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 09:20:43 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Feedback, Mercedes and Boogie for Beginners Message-Id: <23025.199703290920@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There was a recent debate in which the Obie and JamBod were referred to as a Merc. and VW bug respectively, probably by owners (/designers) of the former ;) Lest we forget, in the history of looping people have used EH 16sec delays, DOD pds series, a tape recorder with the tape wound around distant chairs...! Let's be fair; the JM is pretty solid peice of work. If we're going for car analogies, then the Obie is probably a Merc (E or S series) - high prestige, and filled with gadgets that the owners insist they could never live without - air cond, power steering. The Lex is an Audi, BMW 3-series or Volvo - a quality, refined dirving experience which will get you from A to B in style, if not necessarily pampered. Finally, the boomerang is an off-roader - fun to drive, not necessarily the smoothest ride, but with a growing cult status. Even if it can't do the things the others can, there are places it can go that leave the others behind. After that, leave Zoom, Dod etc to fight it out for Ford.. :) John Ott described his setup:: >Yep, Digitech RP-6 (cabinette simulator) -> Mackie (with JamMan in >effect loop) -> main PA or recording. >The draw back with this setup is generating feedback, so I send a aux >out to a fender amp for use as a monitor and to generate and control feedback. > Now, this is something which concerns me greatly - what governs feedback? I had a Lab Series L9 until recently which, despite pushing 120 watts into a 15" speaker, was nigh on impossble to feed back. However, the Boogie Subway Blues will do it with the volume on 5, with reverb and mid all the way up (my fave tone). I love getting feedback on low-gain, big-reverb sounds (too much Peter Green in my youth) - the kind where you can play softly and not distort, or dig in and leave the note going forever. I've been looking at the Trace Elliot 3-channel hybrid preamp recently, but in the shop I couldn't get feedback using the (onboard) digital rvb. Is the feedback occuring due mechanical vibration feeding back at the (spring) reverb in the Boogie? If so, would connecting a rackmount spring reverb in the FX loop of the Trace give me the potential for low-volume, low-gain feedback once more? And is it preferable to run that through a guitar amp rather than a PA? Finally, Kim Corbet wrote: >>I just started learning guitar. And then wrote >>...can they really achieve the variety I'm used to with a mesa boogie??? You're just starting... and you have a Boogie. Way to go! You've learnt the important bit already - buy The best kit! I take it you loop using a JamMan..? Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 09:23:38 GMT From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping in London 10-iv-97 Message-Id: <23054.199703290923@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David O'Torn - I mean Orton - said >>Just a brief note to say I will be adopting a solo loopist stance on April >>10th at the the Clock Tower in Croydon, London (UK) from 1pm till 2pm (lunch >>time) Another UK looper! Does that make, oh, about 3 of us? Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 08:54:13 -0500 (EST) From: andre To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: ...tape squeak Message-Id: <199703291354.IAA16844@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" tape squeak....?? i've gotten results the following way, depending of course on the tape and the severity of the squeak-ness: 1. rewind and ff the tape all the way SEVERAL times. this seems to get the winding evened out.. 2. in tougher cases, i've gotten those radio shack replacement cassette shells and just transported the tape over to a new home. (.."let's leave these earthly containers for new ones...") 3. throw the fucker against the wall in despair! andre' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 09:46:49 -0500 (EST) From: andre To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Chapman Stick/Jamman MIDI Message-Id: <199703291446.JAA21426@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:25 PM 3/28/97 PST, you wrote: >Two questions: >What is the Chapman Stick? I see it mentioned around these parts all the >time, but I have no idea what it is. Is it just a regular guitar that's >favored by looper types for some reason, or does it do something >special? > It's a unique 10 string (sometimes more) instrument - check out any live shots of Tony Levin (best known(??) proponent of the stick) with King Crimson or peter Gabriel, etc etc.. You play with a tapping-oriented technique- and the range of the instrument overlapps guitar and bass and beyond. great invention - search the web - i'm sure emmett chapman has a site... >Also, I'm sure this topic has been covered before, but I want to know >about a MIDI controller for my Jamman. web info on ground control midid pedals, midi-mitigator, or several by digitech are good places to check on..... andre'> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 06:42:05 -0800 From: Francis Leach To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping in London 10-iv-97 Message-ID: <333D2A3D.249F@lafn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr M. P. Hughes wrote: > > David O'Torn - I mean Orton - said > > >>Just a brief note to say I will be adopting a solo loopist stance on April > >>10th at the the Clock Tower in Croydon, London (UK) from 1pm till 2pm (lunch > >>time) > > Another UK looper! Does that make, oh, about 3 of us? > > Michael > > Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, > Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. > "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb 3 in London! And one, me, feeling isolated from you all in the newsgroup. Why? Because I don't use the same looping software and the same looping hardware that most of you use . . . let me explain. Though I am a professional musician, in 1983 I became a computer addict and began to write my own source code. The first extremely simple program I wrote was a BASIC program to play Bach's Prelude in C (well-tempered) on my /CPM Toshiba machine that played on the primite built in speaker . . . not very sophisticated . . . But then, in the next few years, I began to take college programming classes in the following languages: LISP, C, BASIC, Prolog, Logo, Pascal, etc. And tho I then had no MIDI setup, I was fascinated and quite creative in writing looping "space" music that used a combination of aleatoric and constraining devices to create a patterned music that was based on chance patterns . . . my favorite composing influences, were Steve Reich, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, etc. all of whom I became extremely interested in and how they "looped", while I spent 9 years writing classical music reviews for the Pasadena Star News. My most challenging writing about the concerts I attended were about LaMonte Young, John Cage, etc. I even attacked Cage at a party in Pasadena, in his honor, by approaching him and asking "Why don't you believe in patterned music!" His charming response to me was by smiling and saying while extending his hand in a most disarming manner, "Perhaps when you know me better!" I find him socially delightful, but though I didn't tell him, I still disliked his music immensely. But I did find people like La Monte Young, whom I interviewed, and Steve Reich . . . very intrigueing indeed . . . So during those using, I began to form theories and opinions about looping (For loop1 = 1 to 4 . . . . .next loop1)! that were reflected in my composition source code. And then, about three years ago, I bought my first polyphonic synthesizer, an old Kurzweil K1000). Years previously, I had obtained an early Roland monophonic synthesizer, and took classes at Pasadena City College on a Moog) . . . Well, I installed MIDI cards in PCs, the next couple of years, sold some computers (I had picked up many in thrift stores) to the Electronic Music Laboratory I became involved with at LACC (Los Angeles City College), began to both continue with the aleatoric music source code I both wrote myself and was a consultant on with another programmer from IBM, on and on and on . . . It's to long to tell all this, right? But to shorten my background story: I continued to be obsessed with the principle of looping, and how, in recursive usage of looping (ala "Godel, Escher, Bach"), I could gradually change the musical sound loops ((MIDI now on a Kurzweil, Roland W-50 drum machine, Cakewalk software), as they occurred). So, we arrive at this week, and I am in the midst of creating a memorial looping piece (with my sometime composing partner) based on "Heavens-Gate". It has both an elegaic sound similar to Albinoni's famous funeral piece, and Samuel Barber's "Adagio for Strings", and a recurring space music feel . . . .!!! Well, anyway, I'm isolated here in Hollywood, from you guys and I read your messages about certain looping software and hardware, and I wonder how I relate to all of you with the way I came into looping (writing my own software, etc.) without much knowledge of what was going on at the Guitar Center, etc., but instead, developing looping concepts in my Ivory Tower and musing on Steve Reich's music, etc. and how to do something similar with computer source code which I was writing . . . it did work and sometimes the bugs in my code produced the more interesting sonic results than my cleaner code . . . . Happy Easter! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:45:34 -0500 From: dmgraph@bway.net (David Myers) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: 'Plex noise gate Message-Id: <199703291640.LAA18725@nico.bway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim: I've been waiting for a response to my post of a few days ago, but all I've heard from you is something about onion soup, so I'll try the direct approach. In brief, the noise gate is ruining everything I've tried to do lately. Hit a big distortion chord and let it die out gradually-within a few seconds the gate starts chopping it up. Most of my sounds are being pumped like this, and I'm hoping there is a way to get around the gate. Please?! I don't care so much about improved "undo" performance-with this gate, I'll have to look elsewhere for my main looper. Thanks-David ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:34:01 -0600 (CST) From: Kim Corbet To: Pat Kirtley cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: re: ancient tape squeak Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >Unfortunately, some of the tapes (cheaper brands such as Shamrock and > >Sony) have a tendency to rub off their coating very quickly. The effect is > >a very high pitched squeaking noise which begins faintly and gets louder > >and louder. The squeaking can also be heard on the recording - the music > >gets modulated and distorted and is unusable. > >If anyone has found a remedy for this problem, please let me know. ....okay, this sounded bizarre when I first heard about it, but I believe Bruce Richardson (73422.3357@compuserv.com) had a recent studio project where he had to salvage an archiv of ancient tapes and used a, get this, baking process in his kitchen oven...that somehow re-applied the material to the tape. I don't know temps or other details, but I'm sure he'd be happy to share his family recipe. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:46:34 -0600 (CST) From: Kim Corbet To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Feedback, Mercedes and Boogie for Beginners Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >>...can they really achieve the variety I'm used to with a mesa boogie??? > > You're just starting... and you have a Boogie. Way to go! You've learnt > the important bit already - buy The best kit! I take it you loop using a > JamMan..? ..........I've been lucky to have played with some great guitarists in Dallas and the amp I've always loved was Joe Lee's Boogie (he probably has one of everything they've put out the last 20 years). So, when I had a chance to pick one up used for 4 bills, I jumped. I have a jambooty and boomerang and, based on Kim's description of the Plex, I had to order one of those, too. I love using different devices because they all, as you so aptly point out, have their unique capabilities. Sometimes, if I'm using keyboards, guitar and an acoustic source, I like bussing everything into a Mackey and building separate loops that can stand alone or overlap. I use volume pedals to fade or bail as the need arises. Some have asked about the accordion loops. Well, it's no different from trombone or vocal loops...I found a great used instrument with built-in pick-ups in a Portland, Ore pawn shop. I grew up playing accordion, but never really liked the sound of the bass/chords, so I primarily use the piano side with its great variety of stops. One possibility...get a chordal rhythm or sustain cloud going with one of the 2-octave patches and pick up a melodica to add a few counterlines (on the second looper). Since the jamham is cleaner, I usually reserve it for the foreground. Well, it just depends on how I want to blend the different timbres really. I might fade one of the loops as I add trombone lines on top, often through a whammy II harmonizing pedal (a fine toy for turning a single horn into a section) and reverb/chorus of a Lexicon LXP-5. Ah, the black hole of modern technology...and I definitely agree, get the best sounding gear you can afford, look for stuff that most sounds like "you". It'll speak to you and let you know it's right for your music. somehow. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 14:57:02 -0800 From: "James Reynolds" To: Subject: Re: Looping Trombone and Accordion (was Feedback, Mercedes, Boogie...) Message-Id: <199703292304.PAA10286@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Some have asked about the accordion loops. Well, it's no different from > trombone or vocal loops... as long as we're on the topic of looping trombone and accordion - the loop-inclined should check out the CD "deep listening" by pauline oliveros, stuart dempster, and panaiotis. it features the three musicians improvising in an old underground 2-million gallon cistern (empty, apparently) which featured a 45-second natural reverberation time (no kidding - they timed it). instrumentation includes trombone, accordion, didjeridu, voice, garden hose, whistling, conch shell, pipes, and metal pieces. the effect is incredible - the tones are not "muddied" by the space, it's not chaos - but it's still impossible to tell when dempster switches from trombone to didjeridu. the spooky accordion chords swelling in and out are mesmerizing. the music stays interesting by metamorphosing constantly. it's very tasty stuff. james ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Mar 97 19:31 CST From: "kim corbet" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping Trombone and Accordion (was Feedback, Mercedes, Boogie... Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > the loop-inclined should check out the CD "deep listening" by pauline > oliveros, stuart dempster, and panaiotis...the music stays interesting by > metamorphosing constantly. ....I second that suggestion. You might also look for Dempster's "In the Great Abbey of Clement VI(or IV?)"...also trombone and doo. The broken chord "loops" are likewise pristine and majestic. Pauline Oliveros is very excited about the Deep Listening ensemble. I used to do some performances with her and Stuart back in the 80s have nerve-tingling neckhair stories of her tremendous musical magic. And, by the sounds of it, they've got one helluva project going these days. You might check out her "deep listening" websites fo mo info. One of the sometimes collaborateurs, Ellen Fullman, designs and builds these super-length string installation instruments, played by walking the 80-foot plus strings with rosened fingers...as incredible to see as to hear, beautifully sustained, loopish sonorities played in stately rituals. Definitely worth checking out. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:25:31 -0500 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: ancient tape squeak Message-ID: <199703300725_MC2-1375-A3FD@compuserve.com> hi Pat, thanks for your detailed response!! Sounds like this could really help. Michael Peters mpeters@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:25:36 -0500 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: ...tape squeak Message-ID: <199703300725_MC2-1375-A3FF@compuserve.com> Andre: > 3. throw the fucker against the wall in despair! That's of course the first thing that came to my mind. Maybe I'll end up doing just that but guess I'll try the other recipes first. Thanks!! Michael Peters mpeters@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 07:25:49 -0500 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: looping the accordion Message-ID: <199703300725_MC2-1375-A403@compuserve.com> > I'd love to hear about your experiences looping the accordian! Yes, Pauline Oliveros has used loops with her "Deep Listening" band, but she also used to loop the accordion in wonderful solo concerts. If you ever have the chance to see her play, definitely go, it's looping at its very best. Michael Peters mpeters@compuserve.com http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm --------------------------------