------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 52 Today's Topics: Re: Feedback, Mercedes and Boogie fo [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ] loopin' the standards [ ronault@mindspring.com (Ron Ault) ] Re: 'Plex noise gate [ kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) ] Re: 'Plex noise gate [ "kim corbet" ] Re: Feedback, Mercedes and Boogie fo [ "Mikell D. Nelson" ] Re: Mercedes and visual looping [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ] Unidentified subject! [ rmenger@groupz.net ] Unidentified subject! [ rmenger@groupz.net ] Re: Mercedes and visual looping [ "Mikell D. Nelson" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:20 AM 3/29/97, Dr M. P. Hughes wrote: >Let's be fair; the JM is pretty solid peice of work. If we're going for >car analogies, then the Obie is probably a Merc (E or S series) - high >prestige, and filled with gadgets that the owners insist they could never >live without - air cond, power steering. The Lex is an Audi, BMW 3-series >or Volvo - a quality, refined dirving experience which will get you from A >to B in style, if not necessarily pampered. Finally, the boomerang is an >off-roader - fun to drive, not necessarily the smoothest ride, but with a >growing cult status. Even if it can't do the things the others can, there >are places it can go that leave the others behind. After that, leave Zoom, >Dod etc to fight it out for Ford.. :) ohhhhhhh...... will it never end? ;-) >Now, this is something which concerns me greatly - what governs feedback? >I had a Lab Series L9 until recently which, despite pushing 120 watts into >a 15" speaker, was nigh on impossble to feed back. However, the Boogie >Subway Blues will do it with the volume on 5, with reverb and mid all the >way up (my fave tone). The way the amp is designed and voiced have a lot to do with the resulting guitar feedback. Boogies sing like there's no tomorrow, (I've heard lots of good stuff about the subway blues) but most amps don't. Spring reverb vs digital reverb is not the path to feedback nirvana. My Boogie triaxis-simulclass 2:90 combo gets the feedback you are seeking at low volumes, with or without the digital intellifex reverb in the signal path. There is a boogie mailing list. (unaffiliated with the company) The people on it are very (actually, excessively) knowledgeable about guitar amps/tone etc. You can discuss the merits of NOS 6L6's to your hearts content. The details: >Hello, if you're familiar with guitar amplification then you've heard of >MESA/Boogie. There has been a MESA/Boogie email forum for over 2 years >and to subscribe all you have to do is send a message to: >listserv@wlu.edu > >in the body of the message, write > >sub boogie-talk Your Name > >example: >sub boogie-talk Graham Spice > >easy, not too much traffic, get all your questions answered fast. Sign >on and listen, write, whatever. Graham Spice kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:27:48 -0500 From: ronault@mindspring.com (Ron Ault) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: loopin' the standards Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi my name is Ron from Nashville, and I'm new to the list. I saw the 'rang at the Nashville vintage guitar show in '96, and was impressed. I'm a lo tech guitar player ('47 Gibson L-7 with Diaromnd (sp?) pickup through a '84 Fender Concert Amp) the thought of playing rhythm for my self was fascinating. I'm a Joe Pass Fan. I really have been having fun making up chord solos and stacking against my own ideas! It has added a whole new dimension to my playing. I use the Boomerang just for Ideas and to check my timing (ouch!). I have to say that as a practice tool it is really great. and easy to use. Ron Ault ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:24:21 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: 'Plex noise gate Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:45 AM 3/29/97, David Myers wrote: >Kim: > >I've been waiting for a response to my post of a few days ago, but all I've >heard from you is something about onion soup, so I'll try the direct I never said a darn thing about onion soup! I was talking about accordians. :-) I didn't get your original post, sorry. In general though, the deal is this: I stopped working for Gibson about 10 months ago, and don't pretend to speak for them or their divisions. (like Oberheim) The help I give on echoplex questions is totally voluntary, and not out of any obligation. I'm proud of the thing and the work I did on it, and I just want to see people enjoy it and use it well. My real life is very demanding, and I actually have very little time for these sorts of questions. And I do get a lot of them. I'm more than happy to help, and I try my best to give people good answers, but sometimes it takes me a while to get to it. So please try to be patient. I don't mean to jump on you, and normally don't feel it's necessary to make silly statements like this. It's just that I've received email recently with a lot more "angry customer attitude" than seemed necessary. Sort of like the author thought I was a Gibson representative or something. If Gibson/oberheim/whoever has wronged you somehow, please direct your anger at them and not me! They have customer service people available for you to abuse. Mostly, those folks will be able to take care of your problems and as far as I know are reasonably good at that. I will be more than happy to help you if I can, but my motivation will be remarkably lower in the face of overtly misdirected hostility...... Thanks for listening to me vent. Now, your question: >approach. In brief, the noise gate is ruining everything I've tried to do >lately. Hit a big distortion chord and let it die out gradually-within a >few seconds the gate starts chopping it up. Most of my sounds are being >pumped like this, and I'm hoping there is a way to get around the gate. >Please?! I don't care so much about improved "undo" performance-with this >gate, I'll have to look elsewhere for my main looper. > >Thanks-David This was discussed to death a few months ago and I currently don't have the time or energy to do it again, so for the full version you ought to check the archives. A synopsis: - There is a noisegate on the echoplex that makes the Undo function much more usable. - A few people find it annoying, and probably don't realize how equally annoyed they would be if it wasn't there. - There is currently no way to adjust it or turn it off. - One imperfect work-around is to increase the input levels a bit to make sure you are further above the gate threshold. - Another suggestion is to use a compressor. - The designers of the echoplex are very sorry if you are affected by this problem. - Said designers (Matthias, Eric, and myself), at the expense of personal lives and relationships, will be developing and releasing echoplex software upgrades this year. The second of those will offer an adjustable gate threshold. We do not yet have a release date for that. Please avoid asking questions about upgrades for now, because spending our very limited free time on your question means less limited-free-time for working on the software! Appropriate announcements will be made at the appropriate time. - We do hope you can be patient and wait for us to finish this work, and hope that the wide variety of other echoplex features and applications can bring you some solace and pleasure in the mean time. hope this helps, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Mar 97 23:18 CST From: "kim corbet" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: 'Plex noise gate Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I never said a darn thing about onion soup! I was talking about accordians. .........sorry about the confusion. _I'm_ the onion soup kim, the kim who also plays accordion, but never worked for Gibson and is still waiting for my first echoplex, developed by, among others, the other kim, the real kim who never said a darn thing about onion soup. Actually, my chicken bascetti is far superior to the onion soup. Check out the recent issue of Option magazine. They have an interesting selected history of found sound music, including many of Cage's multi-tech pieces from '39 into the 60s. The musique concrete folks are surely our kin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:00:41 -0600 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Feedback, Mercedes and Boogie for Beginners Message-ID: <333F5309.1223@crystalball.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr M. P. Hughes wrote: > Now, this is something which concerns me greatly - what governs feedback? > I had a Lab Series L9 until recently which, despite pushing 120 watts into > a 15" speaker, was nigh on impossble to feed back. However, the Boogie > Subway Blues will do it with the volume on 5, with reverb and mid all the > way up (my fave tone). Just thought I would relate a review on a tube guitar amp that was described as in glowing terms generally but was said to excel in the area of controlled feedback. This is from the Feb 97 Guitar Player review of 23 "boutique" tube amps. "Feedback is another of this amp's specialties. Even at moderate gain settings, you can just grab a note and dig the ride. ... One of the best feedback amps I've ever played." This had my mouth watering for a Electroplex Rocket 50; $2,045 as tested with Mojotone MP10R speakers and GE 6L6 power tubes. Electroplex Amplifiers, Box 35, Brea, CA 92822; fax 714-739-8178. Motley ------------------------------ Date: 31 Mar 1997 06:00:54 GMT From: jim@manager.com (Jim Morgan) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re: Looping in London 10-iv-97 Message-Id: <3406430206.217048659@manager.com> >Another UK looper! Does that make, oh, about 3 of us? > >Michael There used to be an Australian girl called Violinda (uh .. I guess that was her stage name. Guess what instrument she played) playing around some of the less well known clubs in London about three years ago. She might be around still, and is well worth seeing. There was also a violin-based looper who used to busk in Oxford about the same time ago, but he probably gave up cos whenever he played, such a big crowd would gather, the police (bless 'em) had to "move him on" Ah those were the days, Hong Kong Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:42:55 -0500 From: dmgraph@bway.net (David Myers) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: 'Plex noise gate Message-Id: <199703311538.KAA19626@nico.bway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim (Flint): Sorry for the culinary mix-up. >I didn't get your original post, sorry. In general though, the deal is this: > >I stopped working for Gibson about 10 months ago, and don't pretend to >speak for them or their divisions. (like Oberheim) The help I give on >echoplex questions is totally voluntary, and not out of any obligation. I'm >proud of the thing and the work I did on it, and I just want to see people >enjoy it and use it well. My real life is very demanding, and I actually >have very little time for these sorts of questions. And I do get a lot of >them. I'm more than happy to help, and I try my best to give people good >answers, but sometimes it takes me a while to get to it. So please try to >be patient. > >I don't mean to jump on you, and normally don't feel it's necessary to make >silly statements like this. It's just that I've received email recently >with a lot more "angry customer attitude" than seemed necessary. Sort of >like the author thought I was a Gibson representative or something. If >Gibson/oberheim/whoever has wronged you somehow, please direct your anger >at them and not me! They have customer service people available for you to >abuse. Mostly, those folks will be able to take care of your problems and >as far as I know are reasonably good at that. I will be more than happy to >help you if I can, but my motivation will be remarkably lower in the face >of overtly misdirected hostility...... > >Thanks for listening to me vent. Now, your question: > >>approach. In brief, the noise gate is ruining everything I've tried to do >>lately. Hit a big distortion chord and let it die out gradually-within a >>few seconds the gate starts chopping it up. Most of my sounds are being >>pumped like this, and I'm hoping there is a way to get around the gate. >>Please?! I don't care so much about improved "undo" performance-with this >>gate, I'll have to look elsewhere for my main looper. >> >>Thanks-David > >This was discussed to death a few months ago and I currently don't have the >time or energy to do it again, so for the full version you ought to check >the archives. A synopsis: > >- There is a noisegate on the echoplex that makes the Undo function > much more usable. > >- A few people find it annoying, and probably don't realize how equally > annoyed they would be if it wasn't there. > >- There is currently no way to adjust it or turn it off. > >- One imperfect work-around is to increase the input levels a bit to > make sure you are further above the gate threshold. > >- Another suggestion is to use a compressor. > >- The designers of the echoplex are very sorry if you are affected > by this problem. > >- Said designers (Matthias, Eric, and myself), at the expense of > personal lives and relationships, will be developing and releasing > echoplex software upgrades this year. The second of those will offer > an adjustable gate threshold. We do not yet have a release date for > that. Please avoid asking questions about upgrades for now, because > spending our very limited free time on your question means less > limited-free-time for working on the software! Appropriate > announcements will be made at the appropriate time. > >- We do hope you can be patient and wait for us to finish this work, > and hope that the wide variety of other echoplex features and > applications can bring you some solace and pleasure in the mean > time. > > >hope this helps, > >kim I apologize for getting your dander up, though I didn't *think* I was expressing hostility and have never believed you to have represented yourself as an Oberheim spokesperson or official troubleshooter. Just taking you up on your goodhearted openness and enthusiasm for the 'Plex--and cripes, if anyone can answer such questions, I figure you must be the guy! Maybe too many folks figure that and are running you ragged, sorry. I won't be dogging you about the planned upgrades, it's just a relief to hear that at some point this great unit will be of more practical use to me. At the risk of sounding like a dolt, exactly how does one check the archives, anyway? Thanks again for your help, Kim. -David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 97 10:22:06 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Feedback, Mercedes and Boogie for Beginners Message-Id: <199703311622.IAA26132@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Kim Flint said: "The way the amp is designed and voiced have a lot to do with the resulting guitar feedback. Boogies sing like there's no tomorrow, (I've heard lots of good stuff about the subway blues) but most amps don't. Spring reverb vs digital reverb is not the path to feedback nirvana. My Boogie triaxis-simulclass 2:90 combo gets the feedback you are seeking at low volumes, with or without the digital intellifex reverb in the signal path." While we're on the subject of feedback at low levels, I just picked up a Boogie Subway Rocket this weekend, and I'm tremendously pleased with it. I've used a bunch of Boogie stuff over the years, but the Subway Rocket allows you to get all the dynamic wonder of tubes at a quieter volume. I can't speak too highly of this $500, 20watt, three mode wonder. It even has a parallel effects loop, which I'm going to try out tonight. If you're looking for a small combo, it's well worth your while to check it out. If you're just looking for a preamp for that singing Boogie tone, the V-twin pedal is really nice, and can be configured as a stompbox or as a pre-amp. Travis Hartnett (not-affiliated with Boogie) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:46:12 -0500 From: jspeer@haverford.edu To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping Trombone Message-Id: <199703311646.LAA17412@acc.haverford.edu> I saw a band play at M.I.T. a few months back -- The trombone player was connected to a variety of processing devices, including one of those intelligent harmonizers, and pitch detector, and looping as well. Perhaps his technique is common practice for horn players, I don't know: This guy was miked inside the bell and then had a mute over the whole mic & bell, which effectively silenced his acoustic sound. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:42:03 -0800 From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: 'Plex noise gate Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:42 AM 3/31/97, David Myers wrote: >I apologize for getting your dander up, though I didn't *think* I was >expressing hostility and have never believed you to have represented >yourself as an Oberheim spokesperson or official troubleshooter. Just >taking you up on your goodhearted openness and enthusiasm for the >'Plex--and cripes, if anyone can answer such questions, I figure you must >be the guy! Maybe too many folks figure that and are running you ragged, >sorry. Sorry to get on your case, David. You weren't the one that riled me up, but replying to your question was a convenient place to get the other stuff off my chest. Feel free to ask questions anytime, I'll do my best to answer you. Friends? :-) >At the risk of sounding like a dolt, exactly how does one check the >archives, anyway? > >From the top page of the web site: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html there is a link to the mailing list archives. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:58:39 -0500 From: jspeer@haverford.edu To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Chapman Stick/Jamman MIDI Message-Id: <199703311758.MAA28236@acc.haverford.edu> > What is the Chapman Stick? I see it mentioned around these parts all the > time, but I have no idea what it is. Is it just a regular guitar that's > favored by looper types for some reason, or does it do something > special? Emmett Chapman first developed a certain method of playing an electric instrument, which is most simply described as two hands approaching the fingerboard perpendicularly from either side. Each hand crosses over the neck to tap on the strings on the opposite side. He designed and built the Stick to best suit this technique. The pickups are super clean and high output, the action is very low, as is the string tension. One hand plays bass-range strings, strung in 5th, while the other plays the guitar range, in 4ths. The range of the whole instrument is roughly the same as a piano. I think the Stick is particularly well suited to looping for a number of reasons, which I'll capsulize: A very percussive attack is produced by the tapping, and the long strings and pickups produce and extra rich sustained sound. MIDI pickups work especially well on the instrument, should you choose to control loops via MIDI data. The last biggie is that the instrument can be operated with only one hand when necessary to make manual adjustments with the other. The Stick web site is: http://clever.net/stick/stickwire/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 19:07:30 +0000 From: nyfac2 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: where do you guys buy your 30 pin simms? Message-ID: <33400B6B.179C@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a JamMan, but my clunky old computer running Session8 takes 30 pin simms. I am being forced to upgrade to Win95 (S8 doesn't work on NT) and now my 16 pathetic megs of RAM won't cut it any more. I don't suppose anyone out there in TV land has a few 8 meg or 16 meg simms they want to get rid of, or know of a good place to find them... Thanks, Trev PS: I know that there are a lot of vendor questions out there... maybe a vender FAQ could be added to the page? I would volunteer for duty, but, dispite the fact that I opperate computers for a living, I do not know HTML/Java/whatever. PPS: Thanks Kim (No Soup) Flint for the Boogie list info- I joined tonight. As my little brother would say, 'You are the Bomb'. PPPS: If you are looking for good feedback (esp without a lot of distortion) try out a hollowbody. I am the proud new owner of an Epiphone 335-ish pig that gave me such increadably complex, mutating feedback with a minimum of gain, I was tempted to toss out my Ebow away. Unbelievable... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:36:48 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Mercedes and visual looping Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 1:20 AM 3/29/97, Dr M. P. Hughes wrote: >>Let's be fair; the JM is pretty solid peice of work. If we're going for >>car analogies, then the Obie is probably a Merc (E or S series) - high >>prestige, and filled with gadgets that the owners insist they could never >>live without - air cond, power steering. The Lex is an Audi, BMW 3-series >>or Volvo - a quality, refined dirving experience which will get you from A >>to B in style, if not necessarily pampered. Finally, the boomerang is an >>off-roader - fun to drive, not necessarily the smoothest ride, but with a >>growing cult status. Even if it can't do the things the others can, there >>are places it can go that leave the others behind. After that, leave Zoom, >>Dod etc to fight it out for Ford.. :) > Let's see, does this mean that playing a loop over and over again on your instrument is analogous to riding a bicycle? >ohhhhhhh...... will it never end? ;-) > As the person who, in a fit of foolish, late-night, caffiene-driven, sleep-deprived silliness, made the original loopers as German cars analogy, may I humbly apologize to the list? I'm sorry, I never dreamed it'd go this far... On to other stuff: I was recently given a copy of Steinberg's X<>Pose to review for a mac magazine. If you haven't heard of it, it's an animation program that assigns MIDI notes to pict files and quicktime movies, and has a bunch of effects and modifiers that are also controllable via MIDI notes and controllers. It can be controlled in real time from a keyboard or from a sequencer running in the background. While you could do similar stuff in Director or MAX, X<>Pose makes it quite easy to do animations that are synced to music. It could be great for doing live psychedelic light shows, with a computer and projector. So I'm wondering if anyone out there has ever given much thought to the idea of applying the looping esthetic to visuals. One thing that has struck me about the looping music, and technologically-driven music in general, is that it's just not very interesting to watch. As a performer, I don't believe in the idea of faking some kind of physical intensity to make the performance more theatrical, what Anthony Braxton calls "the tyranny of the sweating brow", but at the same time, I recognise that (a) it's difficult for people to make a connection between what the looping musician is doing on the stage to what they are hearing, and (b) watching someone twiddle knobs on a rack is just not visually exciting. So I'm thinking that there's a way to create a visual analog for what we do musically, using something like X<>Pose. Any thoughts? Anybody actually doing this kind of stuff? Part of the reason I'm wondering about all this is that my band is doing an hour-long cable TV show in about a month, and I'm looking for some practical ways to add some visuals... Also, about the West Coast Looping Live extravaganza, I'm still interested. I could help organise something in Eugene or Portland, and, given enough advance notice, could make it to the Bay Area to participate... later, Dave Trenkel ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: improv@peak.org self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/ "A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?" -Captain Beefheart ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:59:37 -0500 From: rmenger@groupz.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" nevermind my last post guys...i figured it out....:) Rich If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. --J.G. Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:49:36 -0500 From: rmenger@groupz.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unidentified subject! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I subcsribed to this list a few weeks ago and have really enjoyed reading it....I had thought that i subscribed to the "digest" though...Is it possible to get this in digest form? Rich If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. --J.G. Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:07:08 -0600 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Mercedes and visual looping Message-ID: <3340A60C.56CB@crystalball.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave Trenkel wrote: > ... So I'm thinking that there's > a way to create a visual analog for what we do musically, using something > like X<>Pose. Any thoughts? Anybody actually doing this kind of stuff? There are products out (sorry, can't recall names) that output MIDI messages in response to movement and proximity. For example you step around your keyboard and thust your arm into the air and simultaneously the stage lighting changes and a musical sequence is triggered. Or perhaps you walk to an area of the stage and jab your guitar in and out at an imaginary foe, but each jab is accompanied by a huge sonic blast. I saw one of these companies at the 1996 NAMM show, but their name is still not coming to me. I think the devices employ infra-red sensors, and are programmable as to transmitted MIDI data. Motley --------------------------------