------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: RE: looped music/web [ Michael Peters ] loops in open air - gig announcement [ Markus ] Re[2]: JamMan & MIDI sysnc [ miguel.barella@poyry.com.br ] Re: JamMan & MIDI sysnc [ SoundFNR@aol.com ] Re: JamMan modifications [ SoundFNR@aol.com ] Personal Profiles: work delayed unti [ Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: looped music/web Message-ID: <199704290301_MC2-1597-6D31@compuserve.com> >Just install it and go to the Headspace site. it still doesn't run under NT4 ... arg!!! ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 03:01:40 -0400 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: David Torn's new loop CD Message-ID: <199704290303_MC2-1597-6D35@compuserve.com> David Torn just announced that the Audio version of his second loop-only CDROM, "Pandora's Toolbox", is now available from Q-Up Arts per mail order. Does anyone know their address, and/or if the CD is also available somewhere in shops? ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 00:15:02 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looped music/web Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970429071502.00746d60@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:37 PM 4/28/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >I didnt mean to start up a PC vs. Mac war over a few loops. {:+/ well, we were tired of the beyond-fripp vs. jamman debate anyway.... >Also I dont believe that you have to encode a file into Headspace's RMF >format to get Beatnik to play it back. The readme that comes with Beatnik >claims that it plays all standard formats plus its own RMF and that it >should be backwards compatible with Liveaudio (NS). I think that's right. I think the Headspace authoring tools are for creating their RMF format audio files. That is primarily oriented at people creating interactive audio for multimedia and games and such. Just about any audio files work with Beatnik. On my mac at home I've got Netscape set to use beatnik for just about every audio format possible. I've got LiveAudio totally off. Also, it seemed like most of the interactive stuff I tried with Beatnik was done with java scripts. So it should be possible for anyone to set up beatnik-aware websites. (assuming you are java-aware, of course) >I think this test would be a simple matter of just using the Beatnik >plug-in to play back any audio file loop (wave, au or aiff) on the web and >listen for a difference between its playback and Liveaudio's playback. I >am assuming that liveaudio does not bypass the MCI controls and as a result >puts in a gap of silence inbetween each repeat of the loop. Beatnik since >it bypasses the MCI controls should play the loop seamlessly. > >Unfortunately, I cannot test this myself because I dont have access to a >PC. Have I got anytakers out there??? or would you all rather drop the >matter???? I'd be surprised if it didn't work. I know the guy in charge of engineering there - he's one of the best people I've worked with. I'd like to hear other people's experiences if they try it, since this could be a really interesting new way to compose interactive music. I'd test the pc stuff for you myself, but despite the fact that I work at one of those hot silly-con valley multimedia wizbang companies, I don't have any multimedia hardware in my pc. Go figure..... kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 VLSI Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 11:14:00 -0500 From: Markus To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: loops in open air - gig announcement Message-Id: <199704290913.AA185915236@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> Dear fellow loopers! CENTROZOON will be headlining this year's 'Music Painting' festival in the big park of Rheda-Wiedenbrueck, Germany. It'll take place on May the 8th and CENTROZOON is scheduled to be on at 15:00. CENTROZOON are: Bernhard Woestheinrich - ROLAND MC 303, Oberheim CYCLONE Thorsten Niestrath - percussion, synthesizer Markus Reuter - Warr Guitar TSG-8, Oberheim Echoplex, etc. We are playing heavily looped improvised music and are looking forward to see you there! Contact me when you need more info! -- -> Markus Reuter, Dammwiese 7, 33613 Bielefeld, Germany <- -> email mreuter@post.uni-bielefeld.de <-> phone (521) 896248 <- -> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/markus.htm <- -> SUPPORT THE WARR GUITAR DEFENSE FUND: <- -> http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html <- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:11:33 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: A new looper? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I read this morning in the issue #84 or Door X, a mailing list devoted to David Torn, a post mailed by himself where he stated the incredible number of things he was doing and working on. The thing that should interest us is that he is currently designing a new looper and he seems to want to approach the industry with the plan of the thing. He he! ssounds pretty interesting, except he did not give details... Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:21:00 -0400 From: "Sellon, Bob" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: JamMan & MIDI sysnc Message-Id: <9704291242.AA20782@beryllium.lexicon.com> Miguel, There are two possible causes for the noise I can think of; one you can fix the other you can't. When Jamman is slaved to an external MIDI clock it determines the end of the loop by itself based on the tempo of the clock and the number of beats selected on the front panel. If the operator tries to end the loop manually, the resulting loop will very likely be shorter than it should be. When the loop is too short, Jamman restarts the loop twice: once when the end of the loop (time) is detected and once when the correct number of MIDI clocks has come in. The solution is to let Jamman close the loop by itself (DON'T tap a second time). This will get the loops size to it's best fit. The second cause is based on the jitter on the incoming MIDI clocks and the resolution of Jamman itself. At best, Jamman can lock in a loop size to within half a millisecond (512us). The problem is that most MIDI clock sources have jitter (timing variations) in the same neighborhood. After the loop time is locked in, the priority in Jamman is to stay in perfect sync with the incoming MIDI clock. The problem is that the combined half millisecond resolution of Jamman and the jitter on the incoming clock result in the actual size of the loop changing very slightly every time through. As the loop size changes, Jamman either shortens the loop or replays the very beginning of the loop to compensate resulting in potential clicks and pops. With the PC itself being slaved the jitter gets worse and so do the clicks and pops. As I said, there is currently no work-around for this other than, as you said, not playing anything at the loop edge. The only other thing I can suggest (which is equally klugey), is to place something percussive at the splice point which will tend to mask the noise. I am looking at the problem, however, and will let you know if I come up with anything. If anyone out there has any suggestions on how to deal with this, I'd love to hear it. Bob Sellon Lexicon/Stec bsellon@lexicon.com ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Friday, April 25, 1997 12:56 PM To: loopers-delight Cc: ghogan Subject: JamMan & MIDI sysnc Hello, I am facing the following problem with JamMan, that maybe somebody already solved and can give me some help. An SMPTE track (from an ADAT) drives a PC with Cakewalk that sends MIDI clock to JamMan. Fine, JamMan syncs properly! The problem is that in the beginning of every bar and/or loop JamMan introduces an audible perturbation on the sound. The silly solution I found is not to play in this spot but this keeps me away from continuos sounds and many other things. This does not happen when Jam Man is used alone or driving the computer or any other box. Any clues on how to solve this? Miguel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 97 10:09:17 TZ3 From: miguel.barella@poyry.com.br To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re[2]: JamMan & MIDI sysnc Message-Id: <9703298623.AA862333741@jpccmail.poyry.com.br> Bob, Thank you for the explanation. Although it does not solve the problem, it clarifies the subject. Let me know if anything new happens. Regards, Miguel ___________________________ Separador de Resposta ______________________________ Assunto: RE: JamMan & MIDI sysnc Autor: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com na INTERNET Data: 29/04/1997 9:45 >Message was resent -- Original recipients were: To: Loopers-Delight ------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------- Miguel, There are two possible causes for the noise I can think of; one you can fix the other you can't. When Jamman is slaved to an external MIDI clock it determines the end of the loop by itself based on the tempo of the clock and the number of beats selected on the front panel. If the operator tries to end the loop manually, the resulting loop will very likely be shorter than it should be. When the loop is too short, Jamman restarts the loop twice: once when the end of the loop (time) is detected and once when the correct number of MIDI clocks has come in. The solution is to let Jamman close the loop by itself (DON'T tap a second time). This will get the loops size to it's best fit. The second cause is based on the jitter on the incoming MIDI clocks and the resolution of Jamman itself. At best, Jamman can lock in a loop size to within half a millisecond (512us). The problem is that most MIDI clock sources have jitter (timing variations) in the same neighborhood. After the loop time is locked in, the priority in Jamman is to stay in perfect sync with the incoming MIDI clock. The problem is that the combined half millisecond resolution of Jamman and the jitter on the incoming clock result in the actual size of the loop changing very slightly every time through. As the loop size changes, Jamman either shortens the loop or replays the very beginning of the loop to compensate resulting in potential clicks and pops. With the PC itself being slaved the jitter gets worse and so do the clicks and pops. As I said, there is currently no work-around for this other than, as you said, not playing anything at the loop edge. The only other thing I can suggest (which is equally klugey), is to place something percussive at the splice point which will tend to mask the noise. I am looking at the problem, however, and will let you know if I come up with anything. If anyone out there has any suggestions on how to deal with this, I'd love to hear it. Bob Sellon Lexicon/Stec bsellon@lexicon.com ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Friday, April 25, 1997 12:56 PM To: loopers-delight Cc: ghogan Subject: JamMan & MIDI sysnc Hello, I am facing the following problem with JamMan, that maybe somebody already solved and can give me some help. An SMPTE track (from an ADAT) drives a PC with Cakewalk that sends MIDI clock to JamMan. Fine, JamMan syncs properly! The problem is that in the beginning of every bar and/or loop JamMan introduces an audible perturbation on the sound. The silly solution I found is not to play in this spot but this keeps me away from continuos sounds and many other things. This does not happen when Jam Man is used alone or driving the computer or any other box. Any clues on how to solve this? Miguel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:49:44 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com To: bsellon@lexicon.com cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan & MIDI sysnc Message-ID: <970429164755_776423363@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 29/04/97 3:01:16, you write: > >If anyone out there has any suggestions on how to deal with this, I'd >love to hear it. > >Bob Sellon >Lexicon/Stec How about? With the jamMan synced to PC a loop is started not when the tap occurs, but when the audio threshold is exceeded. JamMan then records till the end of the midi-defined-cycle, and then continues recording a fade out of suitable duration ( 100millisecond?)(simultaneous with 1st playback). For continued playback simply start at the beginning of each cycle, overlapping the tail of the last copy. You now have a sample which is regularly triggered with a polyphonic No. of 2. Layering, For this to work you need some way of guessing that the next trigger is about to occur.So you'd have to monitor the incoming midiclock and make a guess, then ignore the actual trigger. When recording a layer:- (assume layering starts mid loop) At 100ms(?) before the next trigger( estimated) start recording a fade in as well as recording the same material to the end of the sample. On the guessed trigger stop recording the faded in signal and start layering at full vol onto the beginning of the sample. Simultaneously record a fade out onto the end of the sample. Splice the faded in material to the beginning of the sample next time round. On subsequent loops the fade in will need to be layered . Perhaps it would be easier to add a 100ms silence to the beginning of the sample before layering started, so the algorithm for layering wouldn't have to be different for the 1st layer. Hope this isn't gibberish, Andy Butler ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 16:51:23 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan modifications Message-ID: <970429164813_673986463@emout19.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 07/04/97 12:43:45, you write: >We have been considering the issue of different sized loops >simultaneously but are not sure of how to implement it cleanly. For >instance, if you created a loop in 4/4 then wanted a second loop of a >different size, would you want the second loop to be in a definable >relative time signature (5/4, 13/4) or just "tapped" in on the fly? Our >current software approaches the traditional multi-loop concept used in >Jamman (play the current loop then switch to the next one) by switching >"Pages". Each Page can have up to 4 simultaneous loops which change when >the Page changes. The Page changes at the end of the loop. How do I deal >with this if the loops are of different size. If I wait for the end of >each loop, the loops on the second page will be out of sync even if they >weren't intended to be. Any ideas? We have the capability to have loops >of different size but we have been backing away from them because of >problems like these. We also weren't sure how many people would use them >if we did work it out. Obviously there are some. > >If you have a preference on how you would like the thing to work, let me >know. I can't make any guarentees but would like to put this kind of >functionality in the new rom if we can. > >Bob Sellon >Lexicon/Stec > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:36:53 -0400 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: Personal Profiles: work delayed until mid-June Message-ID: <199705010936_MC2-15C7-50A6@compuserve.com> hi all, I'll be away for vacation until mid-June, so if anyone has new submissions or updates for the Personal Profiles webpage, send them to me but don't expect them to turn up on the page until I'm back. If there's something urgent to change, please send it to Kim. ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 16:46:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: TC's G-Force Message-ID: <970501164553_-299452365@emout19.mail.aol.com> In response to the recent announcements about this processor, i wrote the attached letter to TCElectronics. For what it's worth, I offer a copy here, hoping to stimulate, perhaps, some interesting debate, and, of course, to encourage anyone else to add their 2 monitary units to the mail that TC's R&D folks get to read! From: Dpcoffin@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 12:11:44 -0400 (EDT) To: warrenw@tcelectronic.com Subject: G-Force Greetings, and thanks for posting the news about your new processor; can't wait to hear more about it. In the meantime, I hope you don't mind if I share a few rambling thoughts on the subject of guitar processing (think of this as a one-person focus group, from someone who lives and breathes guitar processing): IMHO, the current coolest processors are the VG-8, which I have, and the GTR4000, which I can't afford, and which I'm not sure would be worth it if I could. Its appeal is the complete modularity, and the DEEP, complex ways you can mix and control the various modules. My concern is that I'm afraid I'm bored with traditional FX! The VG-8 has revealed that REALLY innovative processing these days goes way beyond the trad. delay, pitch, dynamics and modulation FX we all know, into realms of total sound modification (I'm not a tech type, so my terminology is probably not really on target...apologies), using modelling to change the wave forms, the envelopes, and the filtering of each sonic event. I also have a Vortex, which I like in principle (it tries to push the envelope), but it has actually made me even more leary of processors that just use traditional, mostly delay-based fx, even in very in creative ways, since I find myself mostly bypassing it! (If editing and storage were easier, I'd probably love it by now.) My only other processor is a DP-4 which I love for its flexibilty and the sheer number of algorithims. I'll probably next buy a GT-5, for its ring modulator, Humanizer, slow gear, and acoustic simulator, all of which seem to change the actual character of the sound, as well as for the preamp and distortion modelling. (My basic rig is all-tube.) Now I know that few other processors are using modelling (altho if reverb isn't a type of modelling, what is it?), and don't have access to Roland's hex pickup to get at individual strings, but, besides clarity and quality, what I'M looking for in a processor is presets and algorithims (whether they use modelling or not) that unlock sonic possibilities that I probably wouldn't discover on my own, especially anything that responds dynamically to my playing, allowing me to transform the instrument I love to play into something new. The traditional areas I seem to find the most provocative for guitar sound design (besides preamp, power amp, and speaker EQ and distortion FX, either from the real things, or from emulations) are, in order of usefulness: EQ, more EQ, pitch, delay, digital distortion (used sparingly), and dynamics, plus I almost always use at least a little reverb. The areas that seem way under-explored in all the processors that I see coming out are: compression and limiting as sound manglers, rather than as just precautionary devices; envelope control (as in the slow gear); really extreme filtering (for synth-like sound shaping); and LONG delay times--which brings up the other most-critical and missing processing area, in my view: LOOPING! I'm really tempted by the PCM-80 simply because you can add ram to provide up to 42 sec. of very-tweakable STEREO delay. But this seems a very expensive way to get that capability. I would buy the more-versatile-seeming MPX-1 tomorrow if its delay time were expandable. I URGE you to see that ram expansion or a STEREO sampling option is part of the G-Force when it actually appears. Other important features for me include: Redundant effects, so I can place EQ and other things in more than one spot in a chain; Easy patch swapping and re-ordering, plus LOTs of storage space for MY patches, either in ram or on some kind of cheap media; Multiple mod destinations (sounds like you're on to that one); A moveable FX loop, for patching in other processors (STEREO and/or digital would be nice!); a few things that I've never even considered, like the arpeggiator on the MPX-1. Well, hope you've managed to read this far in my ramble; sorry to have been so long winded, but believe me when I say that announcements of new guitar processors are among the most exciting events in my musical oddessy these days; I hope TC will make their real thing less disappointing than the others I've seen so far. Eagerly awaiting more detail! David Coffin ===================================================== Reply: Dear David, Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I will forward your email to our R&D and Sales/Marketing departments in Risskov, Denmark. When I have more specifics on the G-Force I will be posting them on AOL and the Internet. If you want me to send you a G-Force brochure when they are available, email me your mailing address. Warren Weinberg TC Electronic US Inc. TC Electronic Inc. Postal: 790-H Hampshire Rd. Address: Westlake Village, CA 91361 Tel: 805-373-1828 Fax: 805-379-2648 ------------------------------------------------- Email: WarrenW@tcelectronic.com (Warren Weinberg) ------------------------------------------------- WWW: http://tcelectronic.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:05:35 -0400 (EDT) From: PMimlitsch@aol.com To: stickwire-l@netcom.com, Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Official Gig Announcement Message-ID: <970501210456_-1400789770@emout19.mail.aol.com> Star's End Gathering XI on Friday, May 2nd, 1997, will feature live electronic space music by Pure Gamma. Opening for Pure Gamma will be Chapman Stick player Paul Mimlitsch. Sponsored by the 21-year-old radio program, Star's End, the concert will be held from 8:00pm-11:00pm in Houston Hall, 3417 Spruce Street on the University of Penn campus in West Philadelphia. Tickets, at the door: $10, WXPN members and students free. For more information, call 1-800-565-WXPN. For more info about Star's End Gathering XI, go to the Star's End Web Site at www.starsend.org "Star's End" can be heard every Saturday night/Sunday morning from 1am-6am on: 88.5fm WXPN Philadelphia, PA 88.1fm WXPH Harrisburg, PA 90.5fm Worton/Baltimore, MD 104.9fm Allentown, PA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:08:20 -0400 (EDT) From: PMimlitsch@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Official Gig Announcement Message-ID: <970501210644_840607224@emout08.mail.aol.com> Star's End Gathering XI on Friday, May 2nd, 1997, will feature live electronic space music by Pure Gamma. Opening for Pure Gamma will be Chapman Stick player Paul Mimlitsch. Sponsored by the 21-year-old radio program, Star's End, the concert will be held from 8:00pm-11:00pm in Houston Hall, 3417 Spruce Street on the University of Penn campus in West Philadelphia. Tickets, at the door: $10, WXPN members and students free. For more information, call 1-800-565-WXPN. For more info about Star's End Gathering XI, go to the Star's End Web Site at www.starsend.org "Star's End" can be heard every Saturday night/Sunday morning from 1am-6am on: 88.5fm WXPN Philadelphia, PA 88.1fm WXPH Harrisburg, PA 90.5fm Worton/Baltimore, MD 104.9fm Allentown, PA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:15:04 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Fingerpaint Streaming Audio Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We're getting ready to change our streaming audio files in the next week. So if you have put off checking us out, this is a good time to hear some material from our first release, Enormous Swirling Sound. In the words of Tribal Gathering: Below the surface of the earth lie immense plates on which the continents of our planet shift. Patrick Smith and Steev Geest of Fingerpaint are the tape recorder lying beneath these plates recording their every move.....Check it out for its bizarre ambiance.... Check out what four jam men, plenty of synths, and an improvising ethic can do.... Peace, Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 23:57:47 -0400 From: Future Perfect <" artmusic"@gte.net> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Gig question Message-ID: <3369663B.7D9C@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > "Star's End" can be heard every Saturday night/Sunday morning from 1am-6am > on: > > 88.5fm WXPN Philadelphia, PA > 88.1fm WXPH Harrisburg, PA > 90.5fm Worton/Baltimore, MD > 104.9fm Allentown, PA Hi! We don't live in Philly (Florida, actually..), but we will be up in that area for a small tour in June supporting our first CD...check our web page for dates..we will be back in that area in September, and would like to know how to be invoved in a show that your radio show sponsers/promotes. We play ambient/progressive/Renaissancy (band and time period) kinda stuff...the band's name is 'Future Perfect' and it consists of 2 people. We'll have sound clips at our page within a week or two. Thanks a lot!!!! Cups and cakes, Dave Eichenberger -- ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 'Music is a mirror of who we are.' - Robert Fripp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:56:55 -0400 From: "Scott E. Lawrence" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: looking for looper Message-ID: <336BECE7.167E@dartmouth.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I'm looking for a Jamman, Echoplex Digital Pro, and Boomerang. Where can I find these? The Boomerang is out of stock (or never in yet??) at manny's. I haven't found them anywhere else. --------------------------------