------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 66 Today's Topics: Re: Ravel as a looper [ Kim Flint ] Re: JamMan modifications [ "James Reynolds" ] Re: JamMan modifications [ Kim Flint ] Re[2]: Ravel as a looper [ miguel.barella@poyry.com.br ] Re[2]: JamMan modifications [ miguel.barella@poyry.com.br ] Sustainers and pickups [ "Ott, John" ] New sustainiac prices [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] Re: Bob Sellon's beauty mods [ RA336@aol.com ] Re: Sustainers and pickups [ "James Reynolds" ] Re: Sustainers and pickups [ Kim Flint ] Re: Sustainers and pickups [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] VG-8 and hexaphonic processing [ hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) ] Re: VG-8 and hexaphonic processing [ Paolo Valladolid ] While we're on the subject... [ Roland Eberle ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:49:23 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ravel as a looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey, lets keep these threads going! The list has swerved way into gear-nerdism lately; and this is a welcome relief. What are some other loop parallels in western classical music? I admit to being fairly ignorant about much beyond the obvious pieces everyone listens to in music appreciation classes. Could one of you guys give us a little tour of the uses of repetition-as-compositional device in classical genres? I'd be real interested. thanks, kim At 6:56 PM -0700 5/6/97, Carlos Carrillo wrote: >I believe that the work you are eluding to >is the well known orchestral piece Bolero. > >This piece does indeed make use of repetition, but I think Ravel meant >it more as an exposition of orchestral timbre, >since the emphasis is largely placed on the shifting tonal colors >provided by the different harmonies and combinations of solo and >ensemble instruments. > > Repetition is not the intended focus of this particular work. Harmonic, >timbral, >and dynamic movement are the primary forces at work. > >Carlos R. Carrillo ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 00:50:46 -0700 From: "James Reynolds" To: Cc: Subject: Re: JamMan modifications Message-Id: <199705070751.AAA03412@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glad to hear the promising developments for the JamPerson ROM upgrade. Keep up the good work, Bob! But my number one request for the new version is: If possible, please do something about the jarring "pops" at the loop boundary when synced to MIDI. After several minutes of this effect, I end up writhing on the ground, frothing at the mouth... Thank you kindly, James ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 01:49:34 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Cc: Subject: Re: JamMan modifications Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:50 AM -0700 5/7/97, James Reynolds wrote: >But my number one request for the new version is: If possible, please do >something about the jarring "pops" at the loop boundary when synced to >MIDI. After several minutes of this effect, I end up writhing on the >ground, frothing at the mouth... > Cool! Do you do this live? Tell me where you're playing next, I'd like to see! :-) kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 97 10:42:51 TZ3 From: miguel.barella@poyry.com.br To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re[2]: Ravel as a looper Message-Id: <9704078630.AA863027090@jpccmail.poyry.com.br> Although it is not western classical; african pigmees music is based on repetition of diferent patterns at the same time in a very "pure" form. Miguel Barella ___________________________ Separador de Resposta ______________________________ Assunto: Re: Ravel as a looper Autor: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com na INTERNET Data: 07/05/1997 9:26 >Message was resent -- Original recipients were: To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------- Hey, lets keep these threads going! The list has swerved way into gear-nerdism lately; and this is a welcome relief. What are some other loop parallels in western classical music? I admit to being fairly ignorant about much beyond the obvious pieces everyone listens to in music appreciation classes. Could one of you guys give us a little tour of the uses of repetition-as-compositional device in classical genres? I'd be real interested. thanks, kim At 6:56 PM -0700 5/6/97, Carlos Carrillo wrote: >I believe that the work you are eluding to >is the well known orchestral piece Bolero. > >This piece does indeed make use of repetition, but I think Ravel meant >it more as an exposition of orchestral timbre, >since the emphasis is largely placed on the shifting tonal colors >provided by the different harmonies and combinations of solo and >ensemble instruments. > > Repetition is not the intended focus of this particular work. Harmonic, >timbral, >and dynamic movement are the primary forces at work. > >Carlos R. Carrillo ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 97 10:45:21 TZ3 From: miguel.barella@poyry.com.br To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re[2]: JamMan modifications Message-Id: <9704078630.AA863027849@jpccmail.poyry.com.br> I reinforce James' request, this "feature" is very annoying. Miguel Barella ___________________________ Separador de Resposta ______________________________ Assunto: Re: JamMan modifications Autor: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com na INTERNET Data: 07/05/1997 9:26 >Message was resent -- Original recipients were: To: Cc: ----------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- Glad to hear the promising developments for the JamPerson ROM upgrade. Keep up the good work, Bob! But my number one request for the new version is: If possible, please do something about the jarring "pops" at the loop boundary when synced to MIDI. After several minutes of this effect, I end up writhing on the ground, frothing at the mouth... Thank you kindly, James ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 11:04:38 -0400 From: "Ott, John" To: "'loopers delight'" Subject: Sustainers and pickups Message-ID: ---quote-- > >I also wonder if the Fernandes sustainer pickup would work with this >spacing. I would really love to have infinite sustain by using the >fernandes or the sustainiac on an instrument with classical width spacing. There you'll likely have trouble. The pickup might work fine, but getting one installed properly in a guitar is quite difficult, or so I've heard. There are people who can do it, though. Also, unless it is already in a guitar, you have to specially order it from Japan, which may or may not be hard. I do know a fellow who has several of these installed in PRS guitars. You might want to ask the sustainiac guy if he has a solution that works. kim ---end quote--- The sustainer should work with wider spacing. Reeves Gabrels has one in his Parker Nitefly. (which has a special extra wide neck) He did have to get a special body. (One that had not been completely milled) The stock parker nitefly body was too thin for the installation of the sustainer. As for pickups with wider spacing you can get them with more than six pole magnets (this design is to not lose signal when bending strings) Or get a pickup with a rail instead of pole pieces. Reeves setup is discussed in the June Guitar Player. He is not using any analog signal. (other than to drive the sustainer) All output is from the GK-2 pickup which feeds a Roland VG-8 and a GR-09. then goes DI to sound board. He gets some great sounds with the VG-8. Some of the pitch shifting and whammy effects on Bowie's "Earthling" is amazing. Ravel: I had to play Bolero in High School (trombone) very boring to play. (the woodwinds and strings get all the interesting parts) later John Ps Does anyone know if Michael Brook is involved with either of these sustainer devices. He had plans to bring his infinite guitar device to the market. Or is his system still to come? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 97 10:06:27 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: New sustainiac prices Message-Id: <199705071507.IAA24464@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I called the Sustainiac people yesterday, and they said that the prices on the new units run between $250 and $450, depending on options. Some of the available options include remote power, two battery system, rechargable batteries, and dummy coil for hum cancellation. They're sending me a brochure, so if no-one else has found out anything by then, I'd be happy to condense it and pass it on to the group. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 97 10:18:48 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <199705071520.IAA24378@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Does anyone know if Michael Brook is involved with either of these >sustainer devices. He had plans to bring his infinite guitar device >to the market. Or is his system still to come? Brook has always been somewhat evasive on the particulars of the Infinite Guitar, saying that he's considered marketing it and didn't want to give away the secret. All I've ever seen him say is that there are some electronics in the guitar, and more in a unit on the floor. He also maintains that the IG is slightly different from the other systems available. There are only three in existence--Brook, The Edge and Daniel Lanois each have one, all of which were built by Brook. Recently I saw something where he said that he didn't think that he'd pursue selling it, since he realised that he'd have to sell 800 of them to make as much money as he does off one session. I also remember someone attacking him about his air of secrecy, claiming that he'd "borrowed" a lot of the idea from the Roland GR-500. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 12:56:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-ID: <970507125639_1040897806@emout07.mail.aol.com> <> Sorry, but I can't let this bit of persistent mis-information pass uncorrected. The GK-2A pickup sends an ANALOG signal. it is in fact a hexaphonic humbucking magnetic pickup. The VG-8 processes this batch of analog signals using DSP, while the GR-09 converts the analog pitch, envelop, and volume info into MIDI data. dpc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 13:27:58 -0400 From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Sustainers and pickups Message-ID: >---------- >From: Dpcoffin@aol.com >Reply To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >Sent: Wednesday, May 7, 1997 4:56 PM >To: John_Ott@ATK.COM >Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups > ><using any analog signal. (other than to drive the sustainer) >All output is from the GK-2 pickup which feeds a Roland VG-8 and a >GR-09.>> >Sorry, but I can't let this bit of persistent mis-information pass >uncorrected. The GK-2A pickup sends an ANALOG signal. it is in fact a >hexaphonic humbucking magnetic pickup. The VG-8 processes this batch of >analog signals using DSP, while the GR-09 converts the analog pitch, envelop, >and volume info into MIDI data. >dpc Well once it gets to the GR-09 and VG-8 it is all digital. I think that was the point of the article. later John > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:16:23 -0400 (EDT) From: RA336@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Bob Sellon's beauty mods Message-ID: <970507171530_1820395093@emout20.mail.aol.com> Bob... very much want to get this JamMan mod for controlling volume etc via cv pedals... can you inform me pleeeeeze?... just wanted to let you know also that my trusty and loved pcm42 which you modified up all over the place is still the centerpiece of my looping rig... it's been on buncha tours and record dates and I really don't know what I would do without it!... thanks! bestregards, Robby Aceto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:42:15 -0700 From: "James Reynolds" To: Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <199705072245.PAA12605@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The GK-2A pickup sends an ANALOG signal. it is in fact a > hexaphonic humbucking magnetic pickup. neat, i didn't know that! i have a gr-1 and associated gk-2 that i've kind of gotten bored of, but now i'm getting new strange ideas... has anyone tried or considered making an adapter to send those six outputs to a mixer and panning them in the stereo field, or sending each string to a different effect? it simply throttles the imagination... time to dust off the ol' soldering iron! james ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:14:49 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970507231449.008abf90@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:42 PM 5/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >> The GK-2A pickup sends an ANALOG signal. it is in fact a >> hexaphonic humbucking magnetic pickup. > >neat, i didn't know that! i have a gr-1 and associated gk-2 that i've kind >of gotten bored of, but now i'm getting new strange ideas... > >has anyone tried or considered making an adapter to send those six outputs >to a mixer and panning them in the stereo field, or sending each string to >a different effect? it simply throttles the imagination... time to dust >off the ol' soldering iron! > Sure, hex output from guitars is nothing new. That was a big part of the Infinity guitar synth we were developing at g-wiz. A common use is hexaphonic distortion. If you distort each string individually and then mix it together, you don't get the inter-modulation distortion that you get with a normal guitar plugged into a fuzz box. This basically means that you can play distortion chords without the extreme muddiness you usually get. The VG-8 is basically making use of this too. Many of it's functions involve processing each string individually. It opens up a lot of possibilities. I think Matthias has built several processors that relied on hex guitar outputs, as have other people I know. The idea predates Roland by a lot. I know people were experimenting with this in the 70's, and probably well before that. Naturally, none of them were commercially successful..... kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 VLSI Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 97 18:13:50 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <199705072315.QAA16848@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >A common use is hexaphonic distortion. If you distort each string >individually and then mix it together, you don't get the inter-modulation >distortion that you get with a normal guitar plugged into a fuzz box. This >basically means that you can play distortion chords without the extreme >muddiness you usually get. > I'd always been fascinated by this idea, but I thought you needed a sepearate speaker for each string. Can you just distort each string seperately and then combine it back into one speaker? Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:44:32 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970507234432.009a3cfc@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:13 PM 5/7/97 -0000, you wrote: >> >>A common use is hexaphonic distortion. If you distort each string >>individually and then mix it together, you don't get the inter-modulation >>distortion that you get with a normal guitar plugged into a fuzz box. This >>basically means that you can play distortion chords without the extreme >>muddiness you usually get. >> >I'd always been fascinated by this idea, but I thought you needed a >sepearate speaker for each string. Can you just distort each string >seperately and then combine it back into one speaker? > >Travis Hartnett sure. Its the distortion itself that causes the muddiness. When you have two notes together going into a distortion of some kind, the non-linearities cause a situation where harmonics of each note modulate each other and produce all sorts of other frequencies. These frequencies are generally not harmonically related to the others, resulting in a muddy mess. Unless the speaker is the thing distorting, it has nothing to do with it. If you've ever used pitch shifiting after a distortion effect, you've basically heard the difference. The harmonies created by the pitch-shifting come through just fine, even though each note is a distorted signal. kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 VLSI Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 20:34:18 -0400 From: hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: VG-8 and hexaphonic processing Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim Reynolds wrote: >>has anyone tried or considered making an adapter to send those six outputs >>to a mixer and panning them in the stereo field, or sending each string to >>a different effect? it simply throttles the imagination... time to dust >>off the ol' soldering iron! then Kim Flint wrote: >The VG-8 is basically making use of this too. Many of it's functions involve >processing each string individually. It opens up a lot of possibilities. My understanding is that even though the VG-8 is a super powerful harmonic remodling signal processor it will not allow for signal processing each string individually. I believe you do things like panning each string individually but not have different effects assigned to each string in the way that guitar synths allow for different patches to be assigned to different strings. Please correct me if I am wrong about this. I am very interested in this concept of assigning different sounds to different strings. One of the things that makes the guitar so special is that it is the only polyphonic instrument that can also be multi-timbral whether acoustic or electric. With hexaphonic pickups the multi-timbral part can really be explored in the electronic realm where the variety of sounds is limitless. Please let me know about if the VG-8 can assign different sounds to different strings. I look forward to your replies. Hayden Porter hporter@uakron.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 17:49:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: VG-8 and hexaphonic processing Message-Id: <199705080049.RAA11986@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > then Kim Flint wrote: > >The VG-8 is basically making use of this too. Many of it's functions involve > >processing each string individually. It opens up a lot of possibilities. > > My understanding is that even though the VG-8 is a super powerful harmonic > remodling signal processor it will not allow for signal processing each > string individually. I believe you do things like panning each string The VG8 has to be able to process the strings individually. Otherwise, the switchable alternate tuning function (which features individual pitch shifting per string) would not be there. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:29:03 -0700 From: inti@webtv.net (Carlos Carrillo) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <199705080129.SAA17489@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT That would be a geat mod ! A while back I inquired about the existence of any pickups that could amplify the strings into six separate outputs. I was quickly given the old - what the hell for ?- reply. (Guitar Center) That kind of facility would make for some fantastic processing possibilities. Please let everyone know if you come up with something. Carlos R. Carrillo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 18:37:37 -0700 From: inti@webtv.net (Carlos Carrillo) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: VG-8 and hexaphonic processing Message-Id: <199705080137.SAA18292@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yes it does process each sting separately, but you cannot use a different effect on each string. I am solely referring to effects such as reverb, delay, etcetera. Carlos R. Carrillo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:52:46 -0400 From: hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: VG-8 and hexaphonic processing Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Yes it does process each sting separately, but you cannot use a >different effect on each string. I am solely referring to effects such >as reverb, delay, etcetera. In a nut-shell, what are the processing possiblities (VG-8) for individual strings, so far we've got tunings and panning what else??? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:08:59 -0700 From: inti@webtv.net (Carlos Carrillo) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Bach as a looper Message-Id: <199705080209.TAA21196@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The music of the baroque period is the most immediate example I can think of. The Canon is the most obvious form to single out since it was often built up from a repeating ostinato bassline with sort of a call and response harmonic movement riding up on top. The Fugue is another important form which makes use of repetition. In a fugue, a theme called the subject, is announced by one voice then subsequently repeated by various voices. This type of composition builds up incredibly complex layers of sound. I am sure many of you would find a great deal of similarities between looping and these early musical forms. Carlos R. Carrillo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 19:28:23 -0700 From: inti@webtv.net (Carlos Carrillo) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: VG-8 and hexaphonic processing Message-Id: <199705080228.TAA22842@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Polyphonic distortion, but you cannot vary the amount, or lack, of distortion per string. One cool thing about the polyphonic pitch-shift is that it gives you a lot of different options for individual string processing. You can mute, control the balance (between the original and pitch-shifted signal), or change the individual tuning of each string. All to your hearts content ! It is really a lot of fun. Carlos R. Carrillo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 19:55:40 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: multi-track recording to pc Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970508025540.008cef78@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A coworker was just asking me a question that some of you may know the answer to. He wants to do multi-track live recording direct to hard disk on a pc. (not a mac) He would prefer to have all the a/d conversion done externally with a digital link to the pc. He needs at least 8 tracks simultaneously, preferably more, so he can mic his drum set and have some tracks left for other instruments. Does anyone know a way to do this? Is there a pro tools equivalent for the PC? External A/D boxes with connections to a pci card? Anything? This is pretty off topic, so feel free to email me directly. thanks, kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 VLSI Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 19:55:57 -0700 From: Roland Eberle To: Loopers-Delight Subject: While we're on the subject... Message-ID: <337140BD.C073C766@ccnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain Since it's been a hot topic lately and there may be some folks out there looking for either of these I'll post a for sale message: Casio PG-380 midi guitar (the strat like one with on board synth as well as being a very nice guitar in its own right) which can also be used as a midi controller for any sound module...$675.00 Also I just recently bought a Fernandes AFR-70S offset dbl cutaway rosewood fingerboard with the Sustainer pickup at neck, single coil middle,humbucker bridge...whammy bar. White. virtually brand new (Selling cause I bought another more expensive model I liked it so much the sustainer is WAY cool IMHO) these list for $799..I paid $450...yours for $400 obo sorry if posting a FS ad isn't PC but since we are on the subject... reply to me at roland@ccnet.com or roland@sj.bigger.net thanks Roland Eberle ps.. I am not a dealer...just happen to have these 2 for sale as I am trying to raise money for other junk...like the rest of us I guess --------------------------------