------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 67 Today's Topics: Re: Ravel as a looper [ hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) ] Re: Sustainers and pickups [ "Mikell D. Nelson" ] Re: Ravel as a looper [ "kim corbet" ] Re: Ravel as a looper [ inti@webtv.net (Carlos Carrillo) ] Re: multi-track recording to pc [ "James Reynolds" ] RE: Ravel as a looper [ Michael Peters ] Re[2]: Sustainers and pickups [ miguel.barella@poyry.com.br ] Re: multi-track recording to pc [ miguel.barella@poyry.com.br ] Classical repetion techniques [ hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) ] RE: Classical loop article [ hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) ] Hexapohic pickups [ hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) ] Re: multi-track recording to pc [ Dave Stagner ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:39:24 -0400 From: hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ravel as a looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Hey, lets keep these threads going! The list has swerved way into >gear-nerdism lately; and this is a welcome relief. What are some other loop >parallels in western classical music? I admit to being fairly ignorant >about much beyond the obvious pieces everyone listens to in music >appreciation classes. Could one of you guys give us a little tour of the >uses of repetition-as-compositional device in classical genres? I'd be real >interested. I agree about the importance of this thread eventhough I am a tech culprit myself with the VG-8 thread... Repetition-as-compositional device in classical genres.... Boy that is hard a hard one. It seems to me that all good composition is the proper balance of repetition and variety. Repetition is necessary for consistency and variety is necessary to intrest the audience. The amount of repetition or variety is a matter of personal taste. Ramblings 1: It seems that the modernist movement, which is entrenched in the academic setting, which is where classical music resides in the US, feels rather strongly against being obvious in your compositional process. Consequently direct repetition is almost always frowned upon by Modernist music theory and composition professors. All of my composition and theory professors have always stressed the theme and developement concept of music composition (basically a Beethoven mindset). This means that you never state the same thing twice but always changing melodically, rhythmically, harmonically etc. There are other ways of composing but this is the so called "classical way". There is a big rift between the modernist folks and the minimalist composers of the 60's,(post modernists mabey??) because instead of developing themes these composers(minimalist) create a slow but recognizable process of change throughout a piece. There is really no concept of theme/development, rather it is conveying an recognizable process that is important. The division also comes about because the 60's "minimalist" process is usually simple and recognizable in contrast to the extremely complex processes of integral serialism, stoachastic, and computer musics which are the avant guard of the modernist movement. Direct repetition is certainly a big part of Reich's and Glass's music and consequently it sounds very different from Stockhausen and Boulez. Ramblings 2: For classical compositional techniques I suppose you could start out with canons as being a technique that is certainly relavent to loopers and is a common thing found in classical music and almost any kind of music. Row Row Row your boat....:-) A passacaglia or a ground could also be a type of composition possible with looping. Create a melody that loops, then create a different context for the melody each time it comes around. Or create a chord or harmonic progression that loops and create melodies and counter lines as the progression loops. Ostinatos are another repetitive technique used by classical composers although people in the real world call 'em grooves. Canon, passacaglia and ground are common in any contrapuntal style. That means Rennaissance, Baroque, 20th century. There are the looped compositions of the 60's minimalist and electronic music crowd, Riech, Glass, etc. I think that Pauline Oliveros used tape loops in some of her tape compositions. Tape loops and the various techniques of reverse, speed change, were and still are mainstays of electronic music even when not using a tape recorder. Ramblings 3: For me, trying to perform live looped music on electric guitar is a bit different than composing a "classical" piece for an ensemble of acoustical instruments. Since we are very reliant on technology to help us create our works we have to make compositional or improvisational descisions that work within the functions of the technology.(a form of algorithmic composition??) In my opinion, classical compositional techniques are rooted in the germanic concept of theme and development and they would be really difficult (but not impossible) to pull off in a live looped context. Trying to change something melodically or rhythmically that has already been recorded in a delay unit or phrase sampler is almost impossible. You could use the tape loop techniques(reverse, speed change,signal processing) but that is about it. Not much room for theme and development in the "classical way". I think that the 60's minimalist process is more in tune with live looping than the "classical" theme and development way. (I guess that is why live looping more or less comes from that music) In addition since the "minimalist" way was influenced by african and eastern musical thought then mabey these musics are fertile ground for looped compositional technique. Gamelon music is based on a heirarchy of repetative patterns. The higher pitched instruments play fast subdivsion patterns while the lower pitched instruments play slower subdivision patterns and help to articulate the form of the composition.(over simplification) African and Latin american percussion music is a complex web of repeating rhythms of differnt lengths creating complex polyrhythms.(over simplification) Enough ramblings....I will give it some more thought and try again. I would like to hear how other loopers create a sense of form, growth and change in their music by using repetition. -Do you plan your music in advance or is it always spontaineous? -What do you consider to be the your most effective compositional technique(s) when creating live looped music that relies on technology to produce the loops? (how about gear independant comments on this one) later, Hayden hporter@uakron.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 00:31:23 -0500 From: "Mikell D. Nelson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-ID: <3371652B.787@crystalball.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Reynolds wrote: > > > The GK-2A pickup sends an ANALOG signal. it is in fact a > > hexaphonic humbucking magnetic pickup. > > neat, i didn't know that! i have a gr-1 and associated gk-2 that i've kind > of gotten bored of, but now i'm getting new strange ideas... > > has anyone tried or considered making an adapter to send those six outputs > to a mixer and panning them in the stereo field, or sending each string to > a different effect? it simply throttles the imagination... time to dust > off the ol' soldering iron! > > james I saw a guitar at Brook Mays Music in Dallas a couple of years ago that had 1 pickup, a volume knob, 6 pan knobs, and stereo output. You could place each string anywhere in the stereo field. Rare, bizarre, and I think it was a Washburn or Ibanez. Motley ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:36:35 -0400 (EDT) From: PainPete@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: multi-track recording to pc Message-ID: <970508013316_-930580470@emout05.mail.aol.com> Digidesign Session 8? In a message dated 97-05-08 00:17:08 EDT, you write: << Subj: multi-track recording to pc Date: 97-05-08 00:17:08 EDT From: kflint@chromatic.com (Kim Flint) Resent-from: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Reply-to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com A coworker was just asking me a question that some of you may know the answer to. He wants to do multi-track live recording direct to hard disk on a pc. (not a mac) He would prefer to have all the a/d conversion done externally with a digital link to the pc. He needs at least 8 tracks simultaneously, preferably more, so he can mic his drum set and have some tracks left for other instruments. Does anyone know a way to do this? Is there a pro tools equivalent for the PC? External A/D boxes with connections to a pci card? Anything? This is pretty off topic, so feel free to email me directly. thanks, kim _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 VLSI Systems Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research >> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:09:01 -0700 From: "James Reynolds" To: Subject: Re: multi-track recording to pc Message-Id: <199705080609.XAA21710@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a couple issues of keyboard magazine earlier this year profiled the world of pc digital audio recording, discussing the hardware and software options currently available. just in the past year or so, the pc pro audio industry has really taken off - there are several high quality multitrack i/o options available. of course, i can't actually say anything actually useful such as specifically what those options are or what months those issues were, but that's a direction to look in... james ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 97 01:29 CDT From: "kim corbet" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ravel as a looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Enough ramblings....I will give it some more thought and try again. Hayden...nice summation. I think it's important to look at how styles are rooted in the past, for perspective and inspiration. I like to think free improvisation is at the heart of much musical evolution. Lack of documentation masks the value of such ancient (and modern) musical experimentation, the joy of stirring experience with creativity, seeing the value of "accidents" in the developmental process...always looking for evocative techniques, tools and ways of combining/extrapolating sounds and textures. I never tire of reconfiguring my set-up, trying new approaches. I'm constantly finding different ways to think and feel; to be, on occassion, more efficient and, on another, more measured and deliberate. No matter how much I explore the cave system, there's always another hidden room...another vein. > I would like to hear how other loopers create a sense of form, growth and > change in their music by using repetition. ......In GOUGE, 2 of us have boomerangs and 2 have jamulators. The drummer is constantly feeding a drum machine with his Roland Spud. We use no midi on the loopers and, therefore, have the potential of 5 independent multi-layered loops going at any one time, plus whatever live stuff may be happenin. By being aware of musical roles that organically emerge, it's great to hear the parallel layers of different loops speaking to each other through common language and emotional content. Lines, counterlines, insects, ascending phrases, distortion, note matching, a myriad of relationships....an aside, it is so cool and enlightening to be able to establish a loop and walk over to the guitarist or whoever to check out their perspective. Often, at some point in the session, we may all be walking around the space, bumping into each other or into the audience or to the john or whatever...yet we're still THERE performing. What a trip. > -Do you plan your music in advance or is it always spontaineous? .......as you know by now, I love free improv, everything else seems stale by comparison. Thank God someone's still singing Gesualdo Motets. I'm happy to listen and be inspired by their work. Ideally, I want to be right where the brain sparks come from, allowing the music to flow directly from performers, audience, the effects of that evening's sushi buffet...as strained through the bowels of considerable practice and professionalism. > -What do you consider to be the your most effective compositional > technique(s) when creating live looped music that relies on technology to > produce the loops? .........Growing up as an acoustic performer, I want the technology to be as immediate and responsive as possible. That's why I like the rang. It was made by musicians for live music making. (understand: this has nothing to do with other looper developers...whew...glad I thought to say that) Anyway, for me, compositional techniques are derived from musical motivation. Funky grooves, chantlike pedals, soaring harmonies, short delays to accent solo lines, slowly evolving textures that spin off a myriad of fascinating colors. First the inspiration, then the techniques to satisfy the needs. The allure of loopers is their flexibility to enhance a thousand different musical situations and the challenge of mastering their capabilities to let performers reach more of their own potential. In other words, yadayadayada... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:42:39 -0700 From: inti@webtv.net (Carlos Carrillo) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ravel as a looper Message-Id: <199705080642.XAA12174@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I think it is important to remember that some composers tried to break free of the germanic aesthetic by turning their back on many of the established forms and methods of musical composition as far back as the late 1800's. Claude Debussy was one of the first radical innovators. A true revolutionary in the musical world. A man who almost single handedly changed the course of an art form that had become stagnant and complacent as the result of years of conservative teachings and practices. One of my favorite orchestral pieces is "La Mer" (The Sea). In this work Mister Debussy conveys in music the many facets and transformations of an ocean. Even though the piece is subtitled as three symphonic sketches, it is far from being a conventional work of the time. Themes are only hinted, melodies are almost formless, the piece through its entirety is constantly moving and changing. Dynamics! Dynamics! Dynamics! I hope to be able to apply some of these ideas of constant evolution to my looped compositions. I have some of the tools mentioned in this mailing list (Jam-man, Echoplex DP, Vortex, Boomerang) and even though I have discovered that each has its own endearing qualities. I find myself preferring the way looping is implemented in the Vortex and Boomerang. I like the way volume (Vortex) and dynamic replacement (added material gradually lowers the volume of previous material in the Boomerang) affect the way a loop varies over time. Lowering the feedback control or using a pedal to alter feedback does not have the same effect. I hope to see something like this implemented in the Rom of the higher-end units as a user option for the future. Carlos R. Carrillo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:45:18 -0700 From: "James Reynolds" To: Subject: Re: multi-track recording to pc Message-Id: <199705080645.XAA23480@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > of course, i can't actually say anything actually useful such as > specifically what those options are or what months those issues were, but > that's a direction to look in... > ok, i got off my lazy butt and looked it up. check out the february and march 97 issues of keyboard magazine. so i guess there were only two 8-track options profiled. but there were some four track options, and some recording software lets you use four stereo soundcards simultaneously. but the 8-track interfaces in the articles are: digidesign session 8 pc 882 i/o board list $995 www.digidesign.com spectral prisma adax-8818 audio interface list $2995 www.spectalinc.com james ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:30:05 -0400 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Ravel as a looper Message-ID: <199705080530_MC2-1630-73E3@compuserve.com> Hayden wrote, >There are the looped compositions of the 60's minimalist and electronic >music crowd, Riech, Glass, etc. I think that Pauline Oliveros used tape >loops in some of her tape compositions. Tape loops and the various >techniques of reverse, speed change, were and still are mainstays of >electronic music even when not using a tape recorder. that's right ... for those interested, I'd like to recommend my little "history of looping" essay, to be found on our website - it also mentiones Pauline Oliveros and the minimalist tape techniques. Why don't you (and/or the other classically trained loopists) put together something about repetition (and the beginning of looping) in classical (or other) music, for the website? I think it is a very interesting topic, and although I've mentioned classical music in the essay, I couldn't go into details (also, I really don't know much about it). ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:20:35 -0700 From: "James Reynolds" To: Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <199705081121.EAA25443@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all, this discussion of hexaphonic pickups is extremely interesting and stimulating, but i don't think i've seen an answer to my initial question... does anyone happen to know if the roland gk-2 pickup output can in fact be used directly as a hexaphonic source, i.e., just rigging up an adapter to send the six individual strings wherever one pleases? hexaphonic thought: playing a six-stringed part and looping the low E, D, and B strings in 4/4 in the plex, and the A, G, and high E in 3/4 in the jamperson (synced w/ midi). or something. also, anyone know if the hexaphonic approach is how charlie hunter sends his low strings to a bass rig and high strings to a guitar rig? (okay, septaphonic...) thanks... james ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 97 09:52:05 TZ3 From: miguel.barella@poyry.com.br To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re[2]: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <9704088631.AA863110447@jpccmail.poyry.com.br> >A common use is hexaphonic distortion. If you distort each string >individually and then mix it together, you don't get the inter-modulation >distortion that you get with a normal guitar plugged into a fuzz box. This >basically means that you can play distortion chords without the extreme >muddiness you usually get. > I'd always been fascinated by this idea, but I thought you needed a sepearate speaker for each string. Can you just distort each string seperately and then combine it back into one speaker? Travis Hartnett ========================================================= Yes, the Roland GR 300 has this feature: an hexa magnetic pick up that distorts each string than mixes the signal and sends a mono output. The result is a very "clean" sound if compared to a fuzz box. Maybe Matthias Grob can tell you more about his experience with an hexa piezo with individual string output and distortion. A very unusual and nice sound. Miguel Barella ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 97 09:58:20 TZ3 From: miguel.barella@poyry.com.br To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: multi-track recording to pc Message-Id: <9704088631.AA863110708@jpccmail.poyry.com.br> A coworker was just asking me a question that some of you may know the answer to. He wants to do multi-track live recording direct to hard disk on a pc. (not a mac) He would prefer to have all the a/d conversion done externally with a digital link to the pc. He needs at least 8 tracks simultaneously, preferably more, so he can mic his drum set and have some tracks left for other instruments. Does anyone know a way to do this? Is there a pro tools equivalent for the PC? External A/D boxes with connections to a pci card? Anything? This is pretty off topic, so feel free to email me directly. thanks, kim =============================================================== Try the Wave Center board. www.frontierdesign.com Miguel Barella ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:53:44 -0400 From: hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Classical repetion techniques Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Peters wrote: >Why don't you (and/or the other classically trained loopists) put together >something about repetition (and the beginning of looping) in classical (or >other) music, for the website? While I am thinking about, the composer Olivier Messiaen is known for using repetition. His orchestral piece Turangalila Symphonie (1946-48) makes extensive use of repetition eventhough you would never actually hear it or even see it in the score. He creates a very complex polyrhythmic texture by combining repeating long rhythm and pitch patterns of different lenghts. Many of the patterns are longer than 16 beats and some as long as 50 beats. He also makes use of isorhythm which is an interesting repetitive technique that comes from early music. With an isorhythm you have two patterns of different lengths happening at the same time. The catch is that the patterns are in seperate musical parameters. A typical isorhythm will have a repeating pitch pattern and a repeating rhythm pattern but both are of different lengths. Ex. Pitch pattern is: C D E F (4 events to the pattern) Rhythm pattern is: quarter note, eigth note, eigth note (3 events) When combined you get a macro pattern that repeats every 12 events Q=quarter note E=eight note C D E F, C D E F, C D E F | C D E F..... Q E E, Q E E, Q E E, Q E E | Q E E...... But you dont have to be limited to using just the duration and pitch musical paremeters. You have intensity, timbre and position in space to experiment with too. Timbral, pitch, rhythm isorhythm: P=piano G=guitar M=marimba F=flute B=bassoon V=violin Pitch -C D E F, C D E F, C D E F | C D E F..... Rhythm -Q E E, Q E E, Q E E, Q E E | Q E E...... timbre -P G M F B V, P G M F B V | P G M F B V...... later, Hayden hporter@uakron.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:54:36 -0400 From: hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Classical loop article Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Peters wrote: >Why don't you (and/or the other classically trained loopists) put together >something about repetition (and the beginning of looping) in classical (or >other) music, for the website? I think it is a very interesting topic, and >although I've mentioned classical music in the essay, I couldn't go into >details (also, I really don't know much about it). Sounds like a good idea but also a very big project considering there is about 1000 years of music there. Is there anyone who would like to work with me on this? Next topic.... Has anyone on the list done any research on how repetition is used on non western musical cultures? I would like to learn more about how repetition is used in Gamelon music, African drumming, latin american drumming and other cultures? later, Hayden hporter@uakron.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:01:56 -0400 From: hporter@UAkron.Edu (Hayden Porter) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Hexapohic pickups Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" James Reynolds wrote: >does anyone happen to know if the roland gk-2 pickup output can in fact be >used directly as a hexaphonic source, i.e., just rigging up an adapter to >send the six individual strings wherever one pleases? Its my understanding that with the gk pickups the hexphonic signal is multiplexed by the pickup and then sent to the midi converter where it is de-multiplexed and converted into midi messages. Please correct me if I am wrong. I dont think the gk pickup was designed to be used as a general 6 output pickup that would allow you to do what you wanted with the 6 output signals. I think you would need a general purpose 6 output pickup to do the trick with the mixer. I have no idea where you are going to find such a pickup but there has got to be something out there! Hayden hporter@uakron.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:31:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: multi-track recording to pc Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does it HAVE to be directly to disk on a PC? How about using an ADAT, or one of the various dedicated multitracking hard-disk recorders currently on the market? I can't imagine either solution would cost more than a PC solution, what with all the outboard hardware required. Then everything could be dumped to a PC for later editing and processing, but the "masters" would be in a more practical format. And the hardware would probably be more robust than most PCs as well. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort --------------------------------