------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 68 Today's Topics: Re: Ravel as a looper [ improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) ] Re: Hexapohic pickups [ KILLINFO@aol.com ] Re: Re[2]: Sustainers and pickups [ Dpcoffin@aol.com ] RE: Sustainers and pickups [ Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) ] microloop experiments with EP-DP [ ] Re: Bach as a looper [ mgsam@wave.net ] Re: Ravel as a looper [ mgsam@wave.net ] Re: microloop experiments with EP-DP [ Dave Stagner ] Re: Hexapohic pickups [ "Angie Rice" ] Re: multi-track recording to pc [ nyfac ] Re: multi-track recording to pc [ zenchi@juno.com (Robert L Williams) ] loops alive on sf bay [ fred marshall ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 08:11:07 -0800 From: improv@peak.org (Dave Trenkel) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ravel as a looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim Flint wrote: > >I agree. Looping is more than just repetition. You need evolution and >development as well! I went to see the Orb the other night. They're an >excellent example, with elements repeating and changing and coming and >going. There were many moments were a nice ambient soundscape would be >going, with lots of subtle bits thrown around the surround-sound system, >and a few moments later I would notice that a thunderous percussion part >would be going too except I never quite noticed where it came in. It just >sort of built up out of nothing into prominence. It would loop for a while, >mutate, maybe disappear, maybe become something new. The whole performance >was great. The Chemical Brothers also played to demonstrate that a) the Orb >is really good, and b) it is indeed possible to be louder than Metallica >without being anywhere near as entertaining. > Akkk. The Orb cancelled their Seattle show, so now the only way I'll be able to see them live is via Lollapalooza, a less than enticing process. But, yeah, they are masters of this stuff. Somebody mentioned Conlon Nancarrow in this thread. Amazing stuff. One of his player piano pieces, Canon X, has a very interesting loop-based structure. It's basically a canonic structure, with the theme playing with extremely short note values in the highest register. of the piano, and with very long values in the lowest register. As the piece develops, the low voice gets faster and higher in pitch, while the upper voice gets slower and lower, until they cross in the middle of the keyboard. I'd like to see a lopping device that could do this... Also, Erik Satie's name came up. His piano piece "Vexations" features a brief passage for piano to be played 840 times. It was eventually performed by 11 pianists working in shifts over the course of 3 days. But I think part of the intent of this piece is what happens to the pianist(s) while actually playing the line for that long, I don't think that sampling the line and letting it loop would be quite the same. As a project for a music class some years ago, I wrote a MAX program that played Terry Riley's In C, in which each virtual player (there were 32 including the pulse part, because I only had a dual port MIDI interface) used a simple cellular automata to decide when to move to the next section. Took me weeks to write, and when it was done, it was, well, pretty boring. I just finished a great book that may be of interest to other loopers. It's "Ocean of Sound: Aether Talk, Ambient Sound And Imaginary Worlds" by David Toop. It's a free-roaming collection of interviews and observations of such musicians as Eno, The Orb, Aphex Twin, Jon Hassell, etc, etc. It's not specifically about ambient music, or any genre in particular, but about the tendency for indeterminacy, ambiguity and complexity in many different kinds of music in this century. It's fascinating reading, since Toop has been involved in experimental music since the '60's, and has personal contact with a lot of the innovators. Highly recommended. ________________________________________________________ Dave Trenkel, NEW EMAIL ADDRESS: improv@peak.org self promotional web-site: http://www.peak.org/~improv/ "A squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous, got me?" -Captain Beefheart ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:14:14 -0400 (EDT) From: KILLINFO@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hexapohic pickups Message-ID: <970508110954_-565335264@emout15.mail.aol.com> Greeting hexophiles, Although I no longer work for them, the fine folks at Seymour Duncan (and especially Larry Brooks in the custom shop) daily create all sorts of strange, on-of-a-kind pickups for all kinds of folks. You don't necessarily need to be a "rock star" to be able to take advantage of there services in this area. Although such pickups will definitely cost more than those produced in mass, if it solves your problem, perhaps it would be worth the modest extra expence. Their phone number is (805) 964-9610 (Larry's extension is #1007). Give him a call. What have you got to lose beyond the price of the phone call? I know for a fact that Seymour himself has built hex pickups (many years ago now) for folks like Skunk Baxter and others. Give it a try. Ted ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:26:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: Sustainers and pickups Message-ID: <970508112512_-1266127080@emout15.mail.aol.com> <> RMC pickups sells a Fanout Box that has six outputs, and other routing options for hexaphonic systems. It takes the input from their piezo transducers. Tim Diebert (aka Timtone Guitars), the guy who made my custom three-output guitar (ala LGX), says he could use a GK-2A as the front end instead, wiring its outs into the RMC electronics. RMC and Timtone both have web sites. As for the VG-8, at present, the only things you can do with separate strings is pitch-shift them (including gliding pitch), adjust their levels (from 0 to full), and/or pan them individually in the stereo field, all of which is radical enough, but future upgrades or new products could certainly do more. Hammer at Roland with these desires! You'd need two VG-8s to get different sounds on each string, but pitch-shifting a single string can yield radical new tones and tonal responses from different models, all of which is controllable by foot pedal. Hex distortion is built into any VG-8 guitar model that includes what they call a "lead emphasis" parameter, which allows you to select between six separate streams of distortion and a single stream, or anything in between. Ya'll oughta try one! dpc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:53:33 -0400 From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Sustainers and pickups Message-ID: <01BC5BA6.75779040@mark.asisoftware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bartolini has been making hexaphonic pickups for over 20 years. I don't think they have a website, but you can probably find their address in Guitar Player or Bass Player. Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com ---------- From: Carlos Carrillo[SMTP:inti@webtv.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 1997 9:29 PM To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups That would be a geat mod ! A while back I inquired about the existence of any pickups that could amplify the strings into six separate outputs. I was quickly given the old - what the hell for ?- reply. (Guitar Center) That kind of facility would make for some fantastic processing possibilities. Please let everyone know if you come up with something. Carlos R. Carrillo ------------------------------ Date: 08 May 97 13:09:29 EDT From: To: Cc: , , , Subject: microloop experiments with EP-DP Message-ID: <970508170928_702420.204300_BHD37-61@CompuServe.COM> Warning: rather gear-specific post for 'Plexers, but I'd be interested if any other phrase samplers are used this way: Following Kim Flint's tip, I experimented with extremely short loops (fractions/second) by setting the Echoplex Record function to "SuS"tain mode (where loop length is determined by how long you hold the Record button.) analog monosynth --> 'Plex --> multieffects processor 1) virtually any sound source will work...the actual pitch of the recorded loop becomes secondary to the timbral shifting you can do with judicious use of phasers, flangers, etc., downstream. I've started with mainly raw synth tones, but also voice effects from a vintage tube mic. 2) I can tap in, say, a 0.12 second loop which repeats as a blurry wash of tone (remarkably minimal startpoint "popping" depending on the static in the room, I guess) Then, I effect the crap out of it, generally with a mod effect set to a slow speed and high depth (WWWWaaaaaavvvvYYYYYYyyyy ggggrrRRRRRRRAAAAaaaavvvVVVYYYYyyyyy) SUPERfun! 3) A quick tap o' the Insert button (with no incoming signal) cuts in a short space that separates each microloop, producing a continuous pulsation. Dial up a delay time that is some even fraction of this, set the delay feedback to -99%, add some additional live synth input (also effected, but not added to the loop), and you're good to go with a swirling percussive throbbing drone of microloops. Next task: sync the microloops to a 16th-note beat from the MIDI sequencer...the effected microloop is PERFECT for techno/dance/rave applications. The "default" techno tempo is 120bpm (try counting seconds out loud while watching MTV's "Amp" show sometime...) My goal is an exact 1/480th-of-a-minute loop (sixteenths of that beat) = 1/8 second = 0.125. Haven't hooked the 'Plex up to MIDI yet...plan to do so straightaway.... Way cool, Kim! Thanks for the idea! Right after I upgrade to the full 16 Mb RAM, I stop making looptimes more than shavings of a second long |%) --Russell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:24:01 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hexapohic pickups Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:01 AM -0400 5/8/97, Hayden Porter wrote: >James Reynolds wrote: > >>does anyone happen to know if the roland gk-2 pickup output can in fact be >>used directly as a hexaphonic source, i.e., just rigging up an adapter to >>send the six individual strings wherever one pleases? > >Its my understanding that with the gk pickups the hexphonic signal is >multiplexed by the pickup and then sent to the midi converter where it is >de-multiplexed and converted into midi messages. Please correct me if I am >wrong. > >I dont think the gk pickup was designed to be used as a general 6 output >pickup that would allow you to do what you wanted with the 6 output >signals. No, that's not right. The gk-2 does indeed have six discrete analog outputs, one for each string. There is no multiplexing. I believe there is also a line with all the signals mixed. It also contains a small on-board preamp, for driving the lines. You need to supply the pickup with +/- 8V to power the preamp. The gk-2 works fine for hex guitar applications, which is why we were making the infinity compatible with it at g-wiz. Making a gk-2 breakout box should be pretty easy. Same with RMC and other hex pickups. I might have the pinout for the gk-2 somewhere, I'll look. Also, if you have an acoustic guitar with bridge piezos, you might want to take a peak inside. Many of those are also hex, and just get mixed for the output. Oh, as far as Charlie Hunter, He just has two separate pickups. One for the bass strings, one for the guitar. Each goes to it's own output. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:18:59 +0100 From: mgsam@wave.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Bach as a looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Carlos: I was talking to my piano teacher about Bach and looping yesterday, so your post was quite timely. There is no doubt that Bach would have been a looper. The use of polyphonic voices is the first thing most musicians think of when they are first exposed to looping technology. I'm playing Friday night and I'm actually going to loop the bass line of a back minuet in F and then develop on the key on the treble cleff...but that said, the other stuff we do looping goes in a couple of other distinct directions. Are you familiar with the Renaissance composer Thomas Tallis? The kind of modal sound that his early choral works (40 voices) develops is really interesting in light of the ambient "texture" that one can develop by using a looper. We try to pop harmonics, manipulate Ebows, use volume swells, distotion, feeback etc to product different voices that meld and fugue. It's like texture. Reminds me of the Romantic painters in terms background...skies. Think Turner. My piano teacher thought of Bartok...but I have to go back and listen again. One "ambient" opening to a great symphony is Mahler's Symphony #1, sometimes called the Titan. Ever heard the opening of the original Star Trek theme (Space the final frontier)...don't laugh, I'd bet blood that tv composer was stealing from Mahler. I haven't talked about the a-tonal school, I have to go back and listen. But that kind of ambient/serial sound is also part of looping, but completely different in feel from the polyphonic/archetectural sound of a Bach fugue. Best, Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:32:25 +0100 From: mgsam@wave.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ravel as a looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hayden: Interesting post. One thought...it is difficult for one player to do theme and development with ONE looper. However...throw in more loopers... The Loop Doctor's employ four seperate loopers when we play live, plus a pair of Lexicon Vortex processors. We are trying not to incorporate any other technology at this point. Our manta currently is "know your loopers and your Vortex, and your PA..." Eat, drink and sleep your machines until you become like the military man who can break down the rifle in the dark. At that point the music and the technology should hopefully come together. One can fade multiple Jammen and Echoplexes in and out to explore variations on themes, etc. With two players, there is more time to develop stuff without dropping the ball. Also, another thing we've learned: silence and looping go together like the bee and the honey. Do not be afraid of silence. The audience wants a rest at times. Best, THE LOOP DOCTORS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:41:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: microloop experiments with EP-DP Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On 8 May 1997 Russell_Gorton@CreatSvc-Ada.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM wrote: > Following Kim Flint's tip, I experimented with extremely short loops > (fractions/second) by setting the Echoplex Record function to > "SuS"tain mode (where loop length is determined by how long you hold > the Record button.) [stuff deleted] > 2) I can tap in, say, a 0.12 second loop which repeats as a blurry > wash of tone (remarkably minimal startpoint "popping" depending on the > static in the room, I guess) Then, I effect the crap out of it, > generally with a mod effect set to a slow speed and high depth > (WWWWaaaaaavvvvYYYYYYyyyy ggggrrRRRRRRRAAAAaaaavvvVVVYYYYyyyyy) I like to do a similar thing with the Vortex and JamMan. I use the Vortex to create short, complex loops with lots of processing. Then I feed the output of these complex sound machines into the JamMan, on a long delay with lots of feedback. One of these days I'll get ambitious and figure out how to sync the Vortex to the JamMan... I think I've described my old autoloopingfeedbackertrick before. Guitar in a modal tuning feeds short, modulated delay, feeds moderate-sized loop (feedback, not infinite repeat), feeds distorted amp. Lean guitar against amp. Guitar feeds back. Feedback is modulated and looped, which alters the feedback. Pretty soon, the guitar starts singing pretty melodies in feedback, all by itself. :} -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:19:27 -0500 From: "Angie Rice" To: Subject: Re: Hexapohic pickups Message-Id: <199705082022.3046500@taascforce.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I dont think the gk pickup was designed to be used as a general 6 output > pickup that would allow you to do what you wanted with the 6 output > signals. > > I think you would need a general purpose 6 output pickup to do the trick > with the mixer. I have no idea where you are going to find such a pickup > but there has got to be something out there! > > Hayden > hporter@uakron.edu > I remember Steve vai talking about some kind of stereo polepiece PU that he had installed in one of his axes to get real stereo separation. This would have been around 89 or 90. Seems like I even saw a little black and white ad for it. I can't remember the name at all. lt seems like you could then route specific strings to separate outputs. Does this trigger any memories for anybody. I remember that the name of the company that designed it was totally new to me. Forgive me if this was already mentioned, but what about the PAIA Quad fuzz. It was designed I think by Craig Anderton, and is still available as a kit from PAIA. It splits the guitar signal into for pieces and then fuzzes them all differently to get that kind of sound. Justin Rice ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:55:01 -0400 From: nyfac To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: multi-track recording to pc Message-ID: <33724BB5.FDD@nyfac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have used a digidesign Session8 for a long time now (2 1/2 years) and it works like a champ. Very reliable. The software that comes with it is fairly basic- you'll have to use another software program to do even simple things like flipping tracks around backwards. Be aware that all the usual bitching about analog v. digital applies here. One other thing- close miking the snare will come out sounding sort of like wacking the bottom of a 3-litre plastic Coke bottle. I've never had a harder time in my life getting a good snare sound but when I compared how the sound coming off the board and the sound coming off the S8, tears would run down my face. I think I may have solved that problem by using my tascam DAT's digital output thru the digi in with six of the S8 converters. The tascam sounds a bit better, and is quieter. Plus, doing it that way is totally ass-backwards, thereby appealing to me tremendously. Also- check out Soundscape's (I think that's what it's called) box- if tied into a DA-88, you will an eight-channel digital conection. I don't know much about that one, so I won't elaborate. If you have any questions, you can email me privately if nobody around here wants to here the gory details- although as it does have more than some use as a looper, perhaps I should do I write up for it and feel like I'm actually contributing something to the group here (aside from my typos). Trevor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 19:59:55 EDT From: zenchi@juno.com (Robert L Williams) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: multi-track recording to pc Message-ID: <19970508.175902.8438.0.zenchi@juno.com> On Wed, 07 May 1997 19:55:40 -0700 Kim Flint writes: >A coworker was just asking me a question that some of you may know the >answer to. He wants to do multi-track live recording direct to hard >disk on a pc. (not a mac) He would prefer to have all the a/d conversion done >externally with a digital link to the pc. He needs at least 8 tracks >simultaneously, preferably more, so he can mic his drum set and have >some tracks left for other instruments. Does anyone know a way to do this? >Is there a pro tools equivalent for the PC? External A/D boxes with >connections to a pci card? Anything? A month or so ago in EQ magazine there was a profile on Tuck and Patti and their Sonic Solutions based setup. My band used this system when we mastered our cd, and it seems like the way to go with a computer based system. It's really expensive though. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 15:18:37 -0800 From: fred marshall To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: loops alive on sf bay Message-ID: <33725F48.3D33@fredmarshall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - yo! - i'm running out the door to soundcheck and just remembered to remind you guys that we're playing the PRE-OPENING OPENING at YOSHI'S - - we start at 9:30 - admission is FREE FREE FREE this night only! - hope to see y'all! mmmmmmmmmmm ps: it is one beautiful jazz club! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:20:18 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Bartok as Looper??? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On May 8, 1997 Kevin wrote: >My piano teacher thought of Bartok...but I have to go back and listen >again. Now that is stretching it. I love Bartok and one of the things I love is that repetition is not part of his process. I wonder what your piano teacher meant. Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 20:11:14 -0700 From: Sean Echevarria To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: FS: Oberheim Echoplex digital pro Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970508201108.007fcb60@pure.pureatria.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Saw this on rec.music.makers.marketplace today: >Oberheim Echoplex digital pro > has extra memory for 103 seconds of sample time. >Works great, please -email offer. >Best offer takes it > >PBM >jcbooth@erols.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:15:15 +0100 From: mgsam@wave.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Bartok as Looper??? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Actually, I'm not sure...the Bartoks works I'm most familiar with are the string quartets and they seem linear. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:28:45 +0200 From: Robert van der Kamp To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: microloop experiments with EP-DP Message-ID: <3372C41D.275C0EB3@pi.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russell_Gorton@CreatSvc-Ada.CCMAIL.CompuServe.COM wrote: > > 2) I can tap in, say, a 0.12 second loop which repeats as a blurry > wash of tone (remarkably minimal startpoint "popping" depending on the > static in the room, I guess) Then, I effect the crap out of it, > generally with a mod effect set to a slow speed and high depth > (WWWWaaaaaavvvvYYYYYYyyyy ggggrrRRRRRRRAAAAaaaavvvVVVYYYYyyyyy) > > SUPERfun! > Oh wow! I wannit! :) Great FX display, btw. > 3) A quick tap o' the Insert button (with no incoming signal) cuts in > a short space that separates each microloop, producing a continuous > pulsation. Dial up a delay time that is some even fraction of this, > set the delay feedback to -99%, add some additional live synth input > (also effected, but not added to the loop), and you're good to go with > a swirling percussive throbbing drone of microloops. > > Next task: sync the microloops to a 16th-note beat from the MIDI > sequencer...the effected microloop is PERFECT for techno/dance/rave > applications. The "default" techno tempo is 120bpm (try counting > seconds out loud while watching MTV's "Amp" show sometime...) > My goal is an exact 1/480th-of-a-minute loop (sixteenths of that beat) > = 1/8 second = 0.125. Haven't hooked the 'Plex up to MIDI yet...plan > to do so straightaway.... > > Way cool, Kim! Thanks for the idea! Right after I upgrade to the > full 16 Mb RAM, I stop making looptimes more than shavings of a second > long |%) > > --Russell Thanks for this. Gonna try it out as soon as I have my Plex. Robert --------------------------------