------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 70 Today's Topics: FW: JamMan modifications (sync to MI [ "Sellon, Bob" ] Re: JamMan mods (Echo mode MIDI cloc [ "Robert S. Carter" ] Re: JamMan modifications [ Matthew Finley McCabe ] RE: More RE: JamMan modifications [ "Sellon, Bob" ] RE: whiny looper [ "Sellon, Bob" ] RE: whiny looper [ "Sellon, Bob" ] Re: Sustainers and pickups [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] re sustainers [ SoundFNR@aol.com ] Re: JamMan modifications (sync to MI [ Kim Flint ] Re: RE: RE: RE: JamMan modifications [ RA336@aol.com ] Re: JamMan modifications (sync to MI [ "James Reynolds" ] Re: FW: JamMan modifications (sync t [ SoundFNR@aol.com ] Echoplexes shipping! [ Kim Flint ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:54:14 -0700 From: "Sellon, Bob" (by way of Kim Flint) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: FW: JamMan modifications (sync to MIDI p Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" James, My options are limited but I'm thinking about providing a fade at the loop boundry when synced to MIDI clock to eliminate the pops. The only problem is you'll hear a short drop out at the boundry. This seems reasonable and perhaps even usable compared to the current situation. For the record, the working name for Jamman was MutMax. I really liked the name but Lexicon management wouldn't even consider using it so I washed my hands of the entire issue. Believe it or not, "Jamman" was a big improvement over most of the other suggested names. I still like MutMax (or the Mut). Oh well. Bob Sellon Lexicon,/Stec ---------- From: James Reynolds[SMTP:tritone@dsp.net] Sent: Thursday, May 08, 1997 12:56 AM To: Loopers-Delight Cc: bsellon Subject: Re: JamMan modifications Glad to hear the promising developments for the JamPerson ROM upgrade. Keep up the good work, Bob! But my number one request for the new version is: If possible, please do something about the jarring "pops" at the loop boundary when synced to MIDI. After several minutes of this effect, I end up writhing on the ground, frothing at the mouth... Thank you kindly, James ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:58:38 -0400 From: "Robert S. Carter" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan mods (Echo mode MIDI clock) Message-id: <3374A937.6B1A@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu> Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit And now my contribution to the JamMan mod wish list. What about MIDI clock send and receive in Echo mode? Never could figure out why this feature was lacking. I like the idea of the JamMan as a master clock source, but as it stands now this function is lost if you want to loop in echo mode. BOB. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:02:42 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-ID: <970510100236_-1399823102@emout10.mail.aol.com> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Ravel as a looper tangent Message-ID: <970510100256_-766437126@emout02.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 08/05/97 3:45:058:23, you write: > >-Do you plan your music in advance or is it always spontaineous? I try to blend the two extremes, I have composition with room for variation or drifting off into improv. Also I have themes which can be "inserted " into improv. > >-What do you consider to be the your most effective compositional >technique(s) when creating live looped music that relies on technology to >produce the loops? >(how about gear independant comments on this one) > > 1. Set up a combination of suitable technology. 2. Improv and see what happens. 3. Make a note of things that work. 4. Explore the possibilities of real time changes to the signal processing. 5. Eventually arrive at a "composition" which consists of :- i) A configuration of hardware. ii) A number of set themes. iii) An harmonic structure of sorts. iv) Starting points for improv. v) Some kind of structure to the above. Interesting to have to describe this without specific reference to gear. Andy Butler. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 02:04:26 GMT From: sarajane@tmbsbbs.com (Sarajane) To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: whiny looper Message-Id: <970510220005225@tmbsbbs.com> To the Jamman Upgrade Crew (AKA Bob), All the possible new paramaeters to tweak with the new upgrade sound spiff however it still sounds like no memory expansion to get past 32 seconds. Is that the drift I should for to be catching here, or what? Bryan Helm Technoprimitive Tantrum Boy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:33:58 -0400 (EDT) From: KemMc@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: new loop toy Message-ID: <970510013357_-930356417@emout10.mail.aol.com> Fellow loopers, you have to check this out!!! Go to www.steinberg-na.com and download a demo of Rebirth BR-388 this thing is a softwear based drum machine and two analog synths w/knobs, plus a pattern recorders all in one little softwear unit, and it sounds incredible It is hours of looping fun. mac or pc later KemMc@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:28:21 -0400 (EDT) From: PMimlitsch@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: JamMan modifications Message-ID: <970511112820_1041310107@emout20.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 5/11/97 3:06:01 AM, you wrote: <> Yes. A Mac app. -- Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:02:16 -0500 From: paulpop@ssnet.com (Paul Poplawski, Ph.D.) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: JamMan modifications Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ditto a Mac ap n a message dated 5/11/97 3:06:01 AM, you wrote: > >< >upgrade. So far it provides a virtual mixer for the 4 loop/channel > "Pages" but will eventually provide lots of other things as well. Does >this sort of thing seem like it would be useful to anyone? What kinds of >things would you like to see in it?>> > >Yes. A Mac app. -- Paul Paul Poplawski, Ph.D. email = ppoplawski@state.de.us or paulpop@ssnet.com phone service = 302/737-4491 weekday office = 302/577-4980 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:30:36 +0100 From: mgsam@wave.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: JamMan modifications Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ditto x3 on Mac ap. >>upgrade. So far it provides a virtual mixer for the 4 loop/channel >> "Pages" but will eventually provide lots of other things as well. Does >>this sort of thing seem like it would be useful to anyone? What kinds of >>things would you like to see in it?>> >> >>Yes. A Mac app. -- Paul > >Paul Poplawski, Ph.D. >email = ppoplawski@state.de.us or paulpop@ssnet.com >phone service = 302/737-4491 >weekday office = 302/577-4980 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:01:02 -0300 From: "The Negative Eye" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: SoundTrack 97 PCI or ISA Gold Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello everyone, Does anyone know any info or site about the following soundcards? *SoundTrack 97 PCI *ISA Gold Thanks in Advance Juan Manuel Aguirre aka thE negativE eyE ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:04:24 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: whiny looper Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:04 AM +0000 5/11/97, Sarajane wrote: >To the Jamman Upgrade Crew (AKA Bob), > All >the possible new >paramaeters to tweak with the new upgrade sound spiff however it still >sounds like no memory expansion to get past 32 seconds. Is that the >drift >I should for to be catching here, or what? I was wondering about that too. All the new features sound cool, but also sound like they require a significant amount of memory. If you have four tracks simultaneously on one loop, and they are all recorded at the same sample rate used now, wouldn't that mean each can only be 8 seconds long in a fully expanded jamman? And with a second loop (or "page" as you call it), they would be 4 seconds each, right? Seems like memory expansion would be pretty critical! Maybe you should start making your own memory expansion cards with bigger drams. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:19:10 +0000 From: Matthew Finley McCabe To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com CC: bsellon@lexicon.com Subject: Re: JamMan modifications Message-ID: <3375E36C.2CF6@ecst.csuchico.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sellon, Bob wrote: > > I am also looking at audio memory upgrades and audio performance > upgrades (improving the converter filters) which, if they ever appear, > will have to be done at the Stec "factory". > > I will post more info as things solidify. > > Bob Sellon > Lexicon/Stec Bob, If the hardware can handle it, it would be nice to be able to change the pitch of the loop and flip it over backwards. Also, an interface to save off your loops would be nice. I also vote for a Mac version of the upgrade application. Matt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:24:42 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Mac App for Jam Man Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob, Another request for that mac app in the upgrade. FYI I own two jam men and my partner in looping Steev Geest also has two. Collectively we are known as Fingerpaint. We are definitely interested in your upgrades. Keep up the good work. Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:19:00 -0400 From: "Sellon, Bob" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: RE: JamMan modifications Message-Id: <9705121311.AA27364@beryllium.lexicon.com> Ed wrote: >Did you say pan of each loop? That must mean STEREO! Will this cause the >length of available loop time to be cut in half to process left and right? The loops still use up audio memory but you can have up to 4 per page so you could have, for instance, a single page with 4 eight second loops (total 32 seconds) or two pages with 4 four second loops. Get it? >Also, will you be able to mute or replace any of the 4 loops on one page, >say you wanted to mute loop number 2 on a page and leave loops 1, 3, 4 >still playing or even replace loop 3 while still hearing the other loops? >Will this be possible? Yes. You can operate on any loop independently while the others continue to run. The basic rule is, you can only operate (replace, layer) on one loop at a time while the others play. The one exception I may make to that is the Delay mode/function. Its just way too cool to limit it. I'll have to see what kind of problems I run into though. >I can definitely see where odd loop sizes could mess >up trying to sync across pages. Maybe you could have an "un-synced" mode >where each page could be as long as wanted or needed and you since you >are >not syncing you don't need to worry how to sync from one page to another. >Just starting page 2 at the loop boundary of loop 1. Maybe in a "synced" >mode if the second and subsequent pages were some multiple of the first >such as half , twice, 3 times etc. or maybe even +1, +2, +3 , so if page 1 >is 4 beats long, page 2 could be 5 or 6 or 7 beats long, maintaining the >common quarter note pulse? This would let you have a 4/4 page followed by a >5/4 page. I could see some practical applications of this, but maybe it's >too weird or hard to implement. Thats been the thing. It gets weird real quick. I'll probably code it up an see how it works. I'll keep you posted. Bob again: >Ed, I not exactly clear on why you are having so much trouble >syncronizing the second loop. If you are using multiple loops, you >should always "Tap" on the first beat of the loop. This is vitally >important because this is the point at which changes from one loop to >another take place. If you tap on 3, Jamman will start initializing the >second loop on the third beat of your current loop which gets confusing >real quick. When you tap in the first loop try to tap exactly on the >first beat. All of the loops are the same size on the current Jamman so >the second loop will automatically be the same size as the first. >Remember, however, that you DON'T need to tap in the second loop. Simply >use the loop (? Channel?) button to select the next loop and let Jamman >handle the rest. The "time copy" function is built in and automatic. >Bob, let me clarify what I meant. When I sync to a drum machine , there is >no problem lining loops 2, 3 4 etc. up to the pulse, because the drum >machine is my "click track". Suppose I want to strum an acoustic guitar >loop without using a "click" for timing, say a one measure A section in >loop 1, obviously at the end of loop 1 I can have loop 2 cued up to start >recording, so it's not really the starting point of loop 2 where the >problem is, it is the ending point of loop 2. Say loop one is exactly 4 >seconds long. I think I have decent timing but humans aren't perfect so >without a "click" track when I play, maybe I finish loop 2 at 3.98 >seconds, so now there is a tiny gap at the end of loop 2 which is >noticeable when I switch between loops, as well as if my loop 2 is a little >longer than loop1, then loop 2 gets chopped off a little at the end. Is >this a little bit clearer? That's why for me at least, there are times when >I don't need or want to be synced to anything and letting each loop be its' >own length would be very useful. I think I get it. Sounds like the best solution is to let you tap in the size of the second loop. I >Thanks for your time and allowing us to give you some input. I really look >forward to the upgrade. Oh, by the way do you need any beta testers? ;-) Send me some email direct (at bsellon@lexicon.com) about software testing. Thanks for your input. It's definitely appreciated. Bob Sellon Lexicon/Stec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:23:00 -0400 From: "Sellon, Bob" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: More RE: JamMan modifications Message-Id: <9705121319.AA27471@beryllium.lexicon.com> Ed wrote: >Another thing that would be nice in Echo mode, which you may have already >implemented in the new rom, would be to be able to hold or freeze the loop >created in Echo mode and then to solo over the loop without adding your >solo to the loop. As it is now, if I'm in echo mode and I have the >regeneration at infinite, I have to reach over and turn the effects send to >the JamMan on my mixer off to be able to solo over it. It would be nice to >control this via MIDI. >Another thing that would be nice to have, is to be able to access the Loop, >Echo, and Sample modes via MIDI without having to reach over and turn the >Mode knob on the front panel. >And lastly (for now anyway ;-) to have the JamMan be able to MIDI sync to >odd time signatures at least 5, 7. 9, and 11 ( you could go higher if you >like) would be really nice. I hope I don't ask for too much , Bob! ;-) > >Thanks again, Ed All of these things are already in there. "Delay" has become a function just like Layer or Replace. You just toggle the Delay mode off and the current contents of the memory starts looping. The number of beats can be dialed in from 1-19. Bob Sellon Lexicon/Stec ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:48:00 -0400 From: "Sellon, Bob" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: whiny looper Message-Id: <9705121504.AA27817@beryllium.lexicon.com> Bryan, Memory expansion is a significantly more involved mod than the upgrade I am working on but it's still in the plan. It will probably be handled seperately from the other mod. I'll keep the forum posted. Bob ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Sunday, May 11, 1997 6:22 AM To: loopers-delight Subject: whiny looper To the Jamman Upgrade Crew (AKA Bob), All the possible new paramaeters to tweak with the new upgrade sound spiff however it still sounds like no memory expansion to get past 32 seconds. Is that the drift I should for to be catching here, or what? Bryan Helm Technoprimitive Tantrum Boy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:53:00 -0400 From: "Sellon, Bob" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: RE: whiny looper Message-Id: <9705121519.AA27857@beryllium.lexicon.com> Kim, Memory expansion is a significantly more involved mod than the upgrade I am working on but it's still in the plan. The original Jamman hardware did include some special circuitry to simplify expansion to 120 seconds but it will require one additional IC in addition to the larger RAMs and a 1.5Amp wall wart (the one used for the LXP 5 will work). It will probably be handled seperately from the other mod. I'll keep the forum posted. ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Sunday, May 11, 1997 7:25 PM To: Loopers-Delight Subject: Re: whiny looper At 2:04 AM +0000 5/11/97, Sarajane wrote: >To the Jamman Upgrade Crew (AKA Bob), > All >the possible new >paramaeters to tweak with the new upgrade sound spiff however it still >sounds like no memory expansion to get past 32 seconds. Is that the >drift >I should for to be catching here, or what? I was wondering about that too. All the new features sound cool, but also sound like they require a significant amount of memory. If you have four tracks simultaneously on one loop, and they are all recorded at the same sample rate used now, wouldn't that mean each can only be 8 seconds long in a fully expanded jamman? And with a second loop (or "page" as you call it), they would be 4 seconds each, right? Seems like memory expansion would be pretty critical! Maybe you should start making your own memory expansion cards with bigger drams. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 97 10:27:01 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Sustainers and pickups Message-Id: <199705121528.IAA24128@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >Also worth noting: Some K. Yairi acoustic guitars were made with stereo >outputs, with the strings split 123/456. Some Ovation acoustic guitars >were made with stereo outputs-- with the strings split 135/246. I >wasn't excited by the Ovation I tried, but I played the Yairi through a >pair of Twin Reverbs, with the low strings clean and dry, but with heavy >reverb and tremolo on the high strings. It was delicious! Yamaha also had the APX series of acoustics which would let let split it 123/456 or 135/246. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:50:45 -0700 From: "James Reynolds" To: "Looper's Delight" Cc: Subject: Re: JamMan modifications (sync to MIDI p Message-Id: <199705130658.XAA07296@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (mail server weirdness, sorry if this is a repost...) regarding the jamcompadre's "clicking" at loop boundaries when synced to MIDI, bob sellon wrote: > James, > My options are limited but I'm thinking about providing a fade at the > loop boundry when synced to MIDI clock to eliminate the pops. The only > problem is you'll hear a short drop out at the boundry. This seems > reasonable and perhaps even usable compared to the current situation. this would definitely be a major improvement over the current situation. however, you might want to try the method used by the echoplex - setting the loop time once when recording the loop, and letting it "free sync" from then on. one would think the loop would drift noticeably out of sync, but from my experience that doesn't seem to be the case. i've had two- or four-measure loops free sync for a couple hours with no noticeable drift. i guess very short loops would begin to drift more quickly, though. also, this approach makes for seamless loop boundaries in sync mode, which is very nice for textural loops that have notes decaying over the loop boundary. thanks bob, james ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:00:13 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: re sustainers Message-ID: <970512185641_1854203092@emout05.mail.aol.com> Has anyone out there ever taken an ebow apart to see how it works? Do tell. Is this going off topic or can we count a sustained note as a v.short loop? Andy Butler. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:56:49 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: JamMan modifications (sync to MIDI p Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" James said: >regarding the jamcompadre's "clicking" at loop boundaries when synced to >MIDI, bob sellon wrote: > >> James, >> My options are limited but I'm thinking about providing a fade at the >> loop boundry when synced to MIDI clock to eliminate the pops. The only >> problem is you'll hear a short drop out at the boundry. This seems >> reasonable and perhaps even usable compared to the current situation. > >this would definitely be a major improvement over the current situation. > >however, you might want to try the method used by the echoplex - setting >the loop time once when recording the loop, and letting it "free sync" from >then on. one would think the loop would drift noticeably out of sync, but >from my experience that doesn't seem to be the case. i've had two- or >four-measure loops free sync for a couple hours with no noticeable drift. >i guess very short loops would begin to drift more quickly, though. The echoplex doesn't "free sync" actually. It re-syncs to the midi clock each time through the loop. If it did free sync, it would definitely drift away from the midi clock. I think the manual has an error on that point. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 01:09:13 -0400 (EDT) From: RA336@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: JamMan modifications Message-ID: <970512010640_1954354717@emout02.mail.aol.com> Bob Sellon: you are a lunatic GENIUS!!!!!!!!! I would like to get officially in line for your JamMan mods as soon as you think they be available... INCLUDE ME IN! you are pushing the lil buggers into a realm where the things will become much more an instrument, and less a clever device. Thanks upon bend-ned knee... Robby Aceto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 03:37:19 -0700 From: "James Reynolds" To: Subject: Re: JamMan modifications (sync to MIDI p Message-Id: <199705130944.CAA08066@dsp.net> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit kim f. sez: > The echoplex doesn't "free sync" actually. It re-syncs to the midi clock > each time through the loop. If it did free sync, it would definitely drift > away from the midi clock. I think the manual has an error on that point. ah, i see... and yes, the manual does erroneously give the free sync explanation. are there any other errors in the manual i should know of, before i go yammering about some other non-feature of the plex? :) so anyway, since the plex apparently uses the same basic MIDI syncing concept as the jamman, how did you echoplex-designers avoid the clicking at loop boundaries experienced by the current jamman? the loop boundaries of a synced plex are unnoticeable. james ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:57:27 -0400 (EDT) From: SoundFNR@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, bsellon@lexicon.com Subject: Re: FW: JamMan modifications (sync to MIDI p Message-ID: <970512185622_188326739@emout12.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 11/05/97 8:31:318:23, you(Bob Sellon) write: >James, >My options are limited but I'm thinking about providing a fade at the >loop boundry when synced to MIDI clock to eliminate the pops. The only >problem is you'll hear a short drop out at the boundry. This seems >reasonable and perhaps even usable compared to the current situation. Yes, but if you could record a loop which was a bit longer wouldn't you be able to cross-fade it with itself? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:52:31 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Echoplexes shipping! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was at Oberheim yesterday, and what did I see but a palette o' plexes ready to ship! Another batch was sent out last week too. The production problems have been worked out, and the long echoplex drought is finally coming to an end... OB has well over a 100 echoplex backorders right now; after those get filled they should start stocking them at dealers again. Those of you that have been waiting patiently will finally get some satisfaction! Among the production "problems" was motivation. I must say that the general enthusiasm on this list for the echoplex and looping in general has a lot to do with the renewed interest. Keep it up, there are people listening! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com --------------------------------