------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 71 Today's Topics: Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ MiqSk8@aol.com ] Re: re sustainers [ ms20@mx.serv.net (Romeo Fahl) ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ mgsam@wave.net ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ Stew Benedict ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ Gabestern@aol.com ] Stereo Echoplex Problems [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ] Jamman sync issues (continued) [ "Sellon, Bob" ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ KILLINFO@aol.com ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ MiqSk8@aol.com ] Jamman pages and loops [ Ed Drake ] Re: Stereo Echoplex Problems [ Gabestern@aol.com ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ Gabestern@aol.com ] Hey Bob, wanna trade? [ Kim Flint ] Re: Echoplexes shipping! [ Kim Flint ] Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? [ MiqSk8@aol.com ] Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? [ BobbyZZZ@aol.com ] Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? [ mgsam@wave.net ] Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? [ Dave Stagner ] Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? [ Dave Stagner ] Re: Stereo Echoplex Problems [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ] Technique and Looping [ Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) ] Re: Stereo Echoplex Problems [ Kim Flint ] "there are no problems, just things [ fred marshall kim- i don't suppose that while you were there they mentioned anything about the cueu, did they? i guess dean is pulling my leg about this, or his leg is being pulled by someone else. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:48:30 -0800 From: ms20@mx.serv.net (Romeo Fahl) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: re sustainers Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not exactly sure, but someone I know (Davey Williams) took a baseball glove and mounted a DC motor in each finger, allowing him to modulate the sustain by moving his fingers. R> >Has anyone out there ever taken an ebow apart to see how it works? >Do tell. > >Is this going off topic or can we count a sustained note as a v.short loop? > > Andy Butler. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:56:09 -0700 From: mgsam@wave.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim: I hope they're getting motivated about the software update. I have since discovered that the "plex" in posession of the Loop Doctors is one of the very early models that won't do a decent midi transfer. Any further word on the software update? Best, The Loopdoctors ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:13:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Stew Benedict To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII That's GREAT! I'm one the one's patiently waiting, great to hear they are shipping. BTW, are these units going to have the legendary software upgrade? Stew Benedict ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:12:20 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-ID: <970514011219_777914920@emout12.mail.aol.com> But what about the blasted update???!!!! When are we going to have stereo without problems??!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:17:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabestern@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-ID: <970514031751_575038809@emout14.mail.aol.com> I'm interested to know what problems there are running 2 echoplexes to get stereo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:29:15 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Stereo Echoplex Problems Message-ID: <970514072913_2085488427@emout20.mail.aol.com> I don't know if anyone else has this problem, but when my two Echoplexes are connected in stereo, there is complete audio degradation in the slave unit in five minutes. Nothing but noise. The units work great by themselves, they just don't seem to like being hooked up together. This has been a great disappointment to me. I spoke to Kim about this over two years ago, and he aknowledged the problem and spoke about the need for an upgrade. In fact, he claimed the upgrade was ready to go but that Gibson was not supporting it at that time. OK, fine, I've been hearing about the legendary upgrade being around the corner for over two years now. Now were down to any week now. But when? The Echoplex is a great machine, but the stereo part is not worked out yet and to advertise this capability is just wrong. To a certain extent, stereo will work if you're playing live and the loops are flying fast. But in the studio, I like to work with the twin Echoplexes plugged into subouts on the console. Working loops in stereo like this is quite a magical experience. Using stereo effects and being able to place instruments or voice in a wide stereo field beats the hell out of mono looping with everything stacked on top. When I build a loop like this, sometimes it takes a bit of time. Five minutes goes by very fast. To hear nothing but hiss on one channel after working out parts and building a cool loop is an ultra frustrating experience. I gave up. For two years the promise of this upgrade has basically been the proverbial carrot on the stick for me. Oberheim has not been any help on this. Now I read that they are shipping units again. This just seems ridiculous to me if the problems have not been worked out. The manual is also a nightmare of inconsistency and misinformation. Any corrections to this? Sorry I seem so bitter, but all I've got out of anyone so far are distant promises. Kim's a lovely guy, but I wish he'd stop concerning himself about Jamman mods and get on with this upgrade. Perhaps there are not many others in the same boat as me, so this situation can drag on forever. I'm sure that most people buy just one 'Plex. If the update ever does come out, and you want to be amazed, slap another Echoplex in your rig and check it out. Quick multitracking the likes of which you have never seen. Stereo Echoplexes (with the mythical update and extra memory installed) are to music what Polaroid cameras are to photography. If anyone wants to know more, drop me a line. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:30:00 -0400 From: "Sellon, Bob" To: Loopers-Delight Subject: Jamman sync issues (continued) Message-Id: <9705141245.AA06678@beryllium.lexicon.com> James, Your suggestion may actually be more esthetically pleasing than the brute force mute I suggested. The only thing I'm concerned about is that you will probably still have some kind of artifact at the boundary due to both loops playing at the same time for a moment. In putting together the new version of the software, I had to make a fairly radical change to the basic software mechanics (???) which produces the loops. This change allows a lot of really cool stuff like slap delays and perhaps other kinds of DSP things but it broke the MIDI clock synchronization. Strangely enough, the new system lends itself to the technique you are suggesting so I'll probably try that first. This is one of the few remaining (though still fairly big) issues remaining in the new software. I'll keep you posted and, thanks for the suggestion. Bob Sellon Lexicon/Stec ---------- From: Loopers-Delight[SMTP:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 1997 8:17 AM To: Loopers-Delight; bsellon Subject: Re: FW: JamMan modifications (sync to MI In a message dated 11/05/97 8:31:318:23, you(Bob Sellon) write: >James, >My options are limited but I'm thinking about providing a fade at the >loop boundry when synced to MIDI clock to eliminate the pops. The only >problem is you'll hear a short drop out at the boundry. This seems >reasonable and perhaps even usable compared to the current situation. Yes, but if you could record a loop which was a bit longer wouldn't you be able to cross-fade it with itself? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:48:37 -0400 (EDT) From: KILLINFO@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-ID: <970514104642_87838300@emout20.mail.aol.com> Posted: > I'm interested to know what problems there are running > 2 echoplexes to get stereo. None that I'm aware of (other than affording them in the first place). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:10:24 -0400 (EDT) From: MiqSk8@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-ID: <970514121023_1008242049@emout07.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 97-05-14 02:12:50 EDT, you write: << But what about the blasted update???!!!! >> got this this morning :( >>Dear Mr. Barlow, >>Thank you for your e-mail regarding Oberheim and the Echoplex upgrade. Per >>Mike Lyon, General Manager of Oberheim, the upgrade was being Beta tested, >>some revisions were necessary, and the estimated completion is two weeks to >>one month. hurryup and w a i t hurryup and w a i t hurryup and w a i t hurryup and w a i t ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:17:08 -0500 From: Ed Drake To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Jamman pages and loops Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bob, Forgive me if I seem dense but I wanted to understand this pages and loops concept in the new software a bit better. I was just pondering practical applications of all this and since all we have so far are descriptions of this stuff, I just want to make sure I understand. Are the pages basically what the loops are called now, in the current software ? Is the size of the page (start and end points ) the first thing you determine or is the page size determined by the size of the longest loop on that page? Do all loops on a page start over at the beginning of the page? The loops on a page seem to be like layers or overdubs that are controllable, undo-able, etc. I assume that each loop on a page can still consist of several layers as they are in the current software. How is the memory allocated, can you start with two 8 second pages first, which means you can only have 2 loops per page, or if you have an 8 second page then you can't have any more pages because the memory is being held aside for the 4 loops on that page ? It would seem more practical to sync the pages to each other, rather than loops on a page, allowing each page to be it's own length, maybe subsequent pages being some relationship to the first page, especially if loops on a page are only as big as the page itself, ie. if they start over at the beginning of the page. Using multiple pages probably won't be very practical until if and when the memory can be expanded. Keep up the great work! Thanks again Ed ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:39:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabestern@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Stereo Echoplex Problems Message-ID: <970514123904_-264553571@emout14.mail.aol.com> Jim, I'm not sure I understand your problem. I don't have 2 echoplexes yet, but hope to soon. From reading the manual, I surmise that you would feed the Right audio to one echoplex and the Left audio to the other, and that Brother Sync keeps the units synced. Feedback through a footpedal can either be done with a stereo pedal, in which case it seems that the audio paths are totally independent, or with a mono pedal, in which case --- well, though I don't exactly understand how, I think the midi connection between the two echoplexes somehow takes care of the feedback path for the slave. At any rate, how is it that the slave unit builds up hiss? Are you leaving the units in overdub mode for extended periods of time. Even so, why is the slave (oops..... brother) unit different from the master (older brother?). Why wouldn't they both build up hiss. gabriel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:45:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Gabestern@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-ID: <970514124522_875500797@emout01.mail.aol.com> Could someone fill me in on the details of the promised update. What are the problems to be fixed or new features to be added? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:08:28 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Hey Bob, wanna trade? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ok, so, the JamMan has been out 1 year longer than the Echoplex, with nary a mention of upgrade ever. Lexicon even goes so far as to chuck the whole thing. JamMan users are understandably sad. Then along comes Bob, who says, "Hey guys, I'm workin' on a software upgrade in my spare time! What do you think?" JamMan users, with renewed joy and bright happy smiles, exclaim, "That's wonderful Bob! You're the swellest guy in the world!" ....and all is lovely in JamManLand! Meanwhile, in Echoplexia (which has been around one year less than JamMania, as previously mentioned), where it always seems to be raining and maybe a bit gloomier than most places, Kim, Matthias, and Eric say, "Hey guys, we're working on a software upgrade! We're even spending all of our spare time, using up our life savings, maxing our credit limits, and destroying our personal lives to do it for you! What do you think?" And then we run for cover as a horde of raving Echoplex users gives chase, screaming "Well where the @#*&% is it? Why aren't you done yet? We want it now and we're going to stamp our feet and hold our breath until you give it to us!!!" And I'm so proud! My motivation just soars! Hey Bob, wanna trade places for a while? :-) All of this gets a big smiley, of course (-: Now if you all don't mind, I'm not answering much mail at the moment since I'm a little busy testing stereo functions and such. Please just take a deep breath and go play with your reverb for a while. We'll let you know when the cookies are done and make all the appropriate announcements. In the mean time, I'm remaining quiet so as not to make vaporware problems any worse. And maybe, just maybe, I'll actually get some work done..... thanks, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:43:07 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Echoplexes shipping! Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:18 PM -0400 5/13/97, MiqSk8@aol.com wrote: >kim- > >i don't suppose that while you were there they mentioned anything about the >cueu, did they? i guess dean is pulling my leg about this, or his leg is >being pulled by someone else. Actually, they were asking me this question..... As some of you apparently don't know, Oberheim licenses the technology in the Echoplex from "other parties." Those other parties have been very busy lately, and hope to have some interesting announcements to make in the near future about who they are and what they are doing. Said announcements probably will not be made prematurely, so please try to be patient. Calling up Oberheim to ask when they will finish the upgrade is like calling Packard-Bell and asking them when they will be fixing all the bugs in Windows95, and if they don't mind, could they please fix the floating point bug in the Pentium while they are at it? The poor guy at Packard-Bell answering your call will try to give you an answer to make you happy, but he might not know all the details! I'm glad to see you are so motivated about this! I know it's been a long wait, but please be patient a little longer. The goal of the developers is to produce high quality technology. We'll all be a lot happier if it takes a little longer and comes out as near-perfect as possible than if it comes out early with a new set of problems. And feel free to harass Dean at Oberheim. There are still some impediments there, and a little "encouragement" won't hurt. The Echoplex had pretty much gone the way of the JamMan, and it was only through a huge amount of effort and a couple of miracles that it managed to retain it's grip on life. Things are looking much better now on that front, and I'd like to thank all of you who showed the powers that be that you cared. It made a difference! thanks, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:03:23 -0400 (EDT) From: MiqSk8@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? Message-ID: <970514160237_1522513699@emout18.mail.aol.com> youch! i guess i need to apologize, as one who has been cajoling in this area. i thought (apparently incorrectly) that obie/gwiz employees were working on the 'plex upgrade. and that kim, matthias et al. had moved on to other jobs, no longer working for obie. i also kinda inferred from the faq that this thing was basically in the can. since i started this message i got kim's latest reply to my mail from dean-looks like i've been barking up the wrong tree(or at least the wrong branch). again, apoligize for any impatience i have exhibited and/or encouraged on the upgrade. your previous work has been exceptional (i suppose only comprimised by marketing timing) and extremely well thought out. i'm sure that the same concern and genius is being applied here again, and for that i(we) are thankful. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:08:04 -0400 (EDT) From: BobbyZZZ@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? Message-ID: <970514150759_-929902089@emout17.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 5/14/97 2:35:58 PM, you wrote: <> hey now, all you PLEX users be kind to Kim....he's working hard, and as you all know the PLEX is quite a bit more complicated animal to work on than the JamMan. great leaps forward take time and effort, and need positive reinforcement and energy. once the PLEX is upgraded and updated, it will be the most powerful unit of all loopers. i can't wait......as soon as it's all done i'm buying one :-) bobby d/lvx nova ps: any of you loopers ever play in blues bands? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:24:41 -0700 From: mgsam@wave.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Keep working Kim, and ignore the flames. The LoOpDoctOrs salute you. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:02:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 14 May 1997 BobbyZZZ@aol.com wrote: > ps: any of you loopers ever play in blues bands? I played a blues jam once (not looping, just jamming). Me, the drummer, and the sax player had a blast deconstructing Sweet Home Chicago. The conservative Clapton-clone schmuck running the show just glared at us the whole time. We had fun, but it was made pretty clear to me afterward that whole-tone runs and harmonic-minor gypsy noodling are not appropriate treatments for the blues. :} -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:20:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Of course, Kim, the reason the JamMan users are so much more excited about an upgrade than the Echoplex users is because the Echoplex already does most of the things we want out of the JamMan upgrade... :} -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.net */ -Charles Fort ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:58:47 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Stereo Echoplex Problems Message-ID: <970514195842_315273697@emout19.mail.aol.com> Gabrial, First off, I'd wait for the upgrade before going stereo. Either that or have someone at the store that you purchase from hook them up (and show you how that's done as the manual is vague at best) and demonstrate. Then just let that stereo loop play for 15 minutes or so. If it's still going strong, go for it. If not, you'll have bumped into the same problem that I have. (is their anyone out there that gets problem free stereo operation ?) I can't explain why the audio degrade on the slave unit occurs. It does tho. It's not from leaving the overdub button on either. When I first discovered this problem, I sat in my studio and meticulously went over the hook up procedure. Where all the parameters had to be set on both units according to Kim. In frustration, I started to press buttons randomly, just to see if anything changed. Somehow, something worked and the loop did not degrade. I could go off and have a bite and come back several hours later and it would still be playing perfectly. Unfortunately, I could never duplicate the situation. Until the upgrade is released, I'm stuck as far as stereo goes with the way I work. I realize that everyone involved is working hard at completion, but there's a holdup somewhere and the wait is driving me nuts. Other than that, I love the Echoplex. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:05:17 -0400 From: Mark@asisoftware.com (Mark Kata) To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: Technique and Looping Message-ID: <01BC6078.3D35A880@mark.asisoftware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone else noticed this? The more time I spend looping, the poorer my manual technique becomes. However, my musical judgement and sense of orchestration increase. While the more time I spend playing with a band in real time, the better my manual technique becomes (to a point). However, my musical judgement and sense of orchestration in a live setting seem to benefit from looping. Mark Kata Mark@asisoftware.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:30:11 -0700 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Stereo Echoplex Problems Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970515003011.00a586d4@pop.chromatic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jim, I've asked you a couple of times to accurately describe your set up and the manner in which you use the stereo echoplexes. So far I haven't ever received that info. Rather than continuing to throw a fit in public and unnecessarily worrying people, would you mind documenting exactly what all of the parameter settings are on both units, the manner in which they are connected, and the exact sequence of events which causes the audio degradation? The work arounds that I have suggested to you in the past should have solved this problem. Since they apparently didn't, I'm not sure what is going wrong. I really need more complete information in order to help you and make sure that any problems with the software have been fixed. Believe me, I would much prefer that you were a satisfied user! Please send that info to me at home rather than here at work: kflint@annihilist.com As for the rest of you, there are many stereo users who do not experience the problems Jim has described, including me. I believe that Jim is experiencing something wrong, and we will certainly make sure we sort it out so that others do not have the same unfortunate experience. thanks, kim At 07:58 PM 5/14/97 -0400, you wrote: >Gabrial, >First off, I'd wait for the upgrade before going stereo. Either that or have >someone at the store that you purchase from hook them up (and show you how >that's done as the manual is vague at best) and demonstrate. Then just let >that stereo loop play for 15 minutes or so. If it's still going strong, go >for it. If not, you'll have bumped into the same problem that I have. (is >their anyone out there that gets problem free stereo operation ?) I can't >explain why the audio degrade on the slave unit occurs. It does tho. It's >not from leaving the overdub button on either. When I first discovered this >problem, I sat in my studio and meticulously went over the hook up >procedure. Where all the parameters had to be set on both units according to >Kim. In frustration, I started to press buttons randomly, just to see if >anything changed. Somehow, something worked and the loop did not degrade. I >could go off and have a bite and come back several hours later and it would >still be playing perfectly. Unfortunately, I could never duplicate the >situation. Until the upgrade is released, I'm stuck as far as stereo goes >with the way I work. I realize that everyone involved is working hard at >completion, but there's a holdup somewhere and the wait is driving me nuts. > Other than that, I love the Echoplex. > > Jim > > > ________________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:05:14 -0800 From: fred marshall To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: "there are no problems, just things to be done" - leary Message-ID: <337A6F4B.7BB@fredmarshall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - one wrote: "In frustration, I started to press buttons randomly, just to see if anything changed. Somehow, something worked and the loop did not degrade. I could go off and have a bite and come back several hours later and it would still be playing perfectly. Unfortunately, I could never duplicate the situation." - so the machines DO function properly. - suggestion: AFTER reading whatever instructions are available (if any, and assuming they are in a language familar to you) . . . - one might try starting where one has a comfortable and INTUITIVE grasp of what the trolls and gremlins in those boxes are doing . . . (gremlin takes message in left hand, places it in the right hand of the troll, etc.) . . . and THEN "press buttons randomly". - and EXPERIENCE the architecture and limitations of the equipment/software . . . no need to TRY to re-create earlier success(es), they will "volunteer" as will many other strange and wonderful things never dreamed of by the inventors. - then one might share the joy of such revelation with others. mmmmm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:12:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Kim Corbet To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hey Bob, wanna trade? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII kim... I recommend shutting down the list for a month and setting fire to the bed. That'll teach 'em. Hey, I'll set fire to my bed, too! Let's ALL set fire to our beds!!! Maybe they'll show up to bulldoze all our homes by the time the plex, rang and jimjam updates actually arrive. I'm guessing this stuff MUST be Biblical, something no one really knows and a little scared of. --the spare kim --------------------------------