------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 97 : Issue 86 Today's Topics: Looping show and broadcast, Austin T [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] Re: mixer suggestions/volumepedal [ crb@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (Curti ] Re: RE: Improving looper interfaces [ BlkSwan03@aol.com ] Re: Sustainer Update [ pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hu ] Re: mixer suggestions/volumepedal [ rick canton ] Re: Sustainer Update [ robin bussell ] Re: Sustainer Update [ Paolo Valladolid To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Looping show and broadcast, Austin TX Message-Id: <199706101827.LAA19796@scv4.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On Thursday, June 12th, Tiktok will be performing on radio (KUT 90.5 FM, starting somewhen between 11 and 11:30 AM, for about an hour) and in person (Movements Art Gallery, 211 E. 6th, 7PM until 11ish, appearing with Golden Arm Trio). Anyone interested in ambient improvised looping instrumentals is invited to tune in and/or show up. Tiktok (Travis Hartnett & Jon Matis) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:36:25 +0100 From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainer Update Message-Id: <20439.199706102136@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain >I'm peeking inside my Ebow, and one pickup definitely has thicker >wire than the other, but I really can't say how thick it is (thicker, >yes, but still a very thin wire). If you're really serious, >you might consider dissecting an ebow for testing wire sizes/ >current and such. >also: >The pickup centers on the Ebow are 1 11/64 inch apart. > >Good luck! > >jim Jim, you are an ANGEL!!! I'd not realised the EBow actually recieved string information. 1.2" is much less than the distance between adjacent pickups, so it should be OK to avoid unstable loops (!) with adjacent pickups. I guess it's a problem on the Fer because it's using a blade coil rather than seperate polepeices. Anybody know anything about magnetic field morphologies?!? As for buying an EBow, I'll have to judge whether it impinges on my budget - after all, Fer sell a whole system for £250 ($400)... It's nearly 11pm. Goodnight, Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:42:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainer Update Message-Id: <199706102242.PAA29317@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As for buying an EBow, I'll have to judge whether it impinges on= > my budget > - after all, Fer sell a whole system for =A3250 ($400)... > > It's nearly 11pm. Goodnight, > Michael Oh my. I paid $69 + shipping for my Ebow here in the U.S. Is it really that expensive in the UK? Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:03 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Improving looper interfaces Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I said this before in mail to Motley, and I don't think it's a stunning >revelation, but I think that selling looping devices to the masses >requires in-store demo's of how to use the thing. I play tapes for >people of the live looping stuff I've done, and they think it's four or >five people playing--they may like the music, but the "magic trick" >nature of looping is invisible on tape. If you have a musician show >another musician how to use one of the Big Three, I'd say your chance of >selling them a box goes up five-fold. This requires someone who can >adequately demo the product (which consists of more than playing some >riff haphazardly into the loop and hitting "hold" and then saying "Now >you can solo over it!") and answer questions. This isn't going to happen >unless the manufacturer pays someone to go on a tour of dealers doing >clinics. Lexicon did that well, at least the demo I saw in Frankfurt was convincing. The LOOP delay was well demonstrated by Ljubo Majstorovic the year before and I remember having seen Lexicon staff watching well ;-) I hope Oberheim will get there, too, and some of you guys get a job... >Perhaps an instructional video tape, for $5 to interested parties? Yes, yes! Old dream. We could even do animated graphics while the sound is rolling to explain better what happens during the various functions, which has shown to be very difficult in the manual (and even for myself, when I try to imagine what the functions should do and how I can acomplish it). Its hard to do time dependent scratch designs. Once the user can imagine where things are stored in memory, the understanding of the functions turn much more intuitive. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:10 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: symetrix delay Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Anybody checked out the Symetrix "606 Delay f/x Machine"? Any reactions? > >Looks like a great delay unit; true stereo, 20bit A/D, filters, modulation, >tap tempo, midi sync, and knobs..... > >Downside seems to be only 2.6 seconds for "normal resolution" and 1.3 >seconds for "high resolution." Memory is cheap, what are they thinking? Not every delay is a loop machine. In fact all delay machines only serve for looping in a limited way. Tempo tap helps but does not resolve. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:15 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Zoom 508 delay vs. Steinway pianos vs. Klein guitars Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" LoOpDoctOr, Your diagnosis is nice and smart. Why just questions? What is the remedy? Your proposuals are of high provocative value. Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:25 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustain(Warning!) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I've just tried driving 10V into a neck p/u, which doesn't seemed to have >harmed it - hasn't started any strings oscilating though! The unit >measures at about 8Kohm, meaning about 1mA is flowing through the coils. >Not enough, it seems... 10mW will not destroy much, give it 10 times more to try. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:35 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: World Loop Discography Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Michael >I'm back from vacation, How was it? Met some loopists in US? >and ready to HTMLize new entries for the Personal >Profiles webpage (and for the Loopology webpage). If you want to add your >Personal Profile to the page, put together what seems important to you (if >you want, in a tabular form just like most existing entries) and send it to >me. In fact, I think the most important for the page would be a collection of at least names, maybe short descriptions of CDs with loops on them. Many hints have been given in many mails... maybe someone has the good energy to look them through, condense the information to a list and send it to Michael to HTMLize? Many would thank forever... Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:40 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE: Non-Guitar Looping Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John said: >I have used >combinations of guitar, synth and vocals in loops. How did you use the voice, and what was the experience? With lyrics, only refrain, only background sound? Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:19 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Non-Guitar Looping Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Right! I am looking for a small mixer with few high quality channels (at least one parametric mid and phantom, maybe compression) and few stereo channels. Is there one on the market? Arn't there enough users for such thing in all those home PC studios and for individuals on stage? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:45 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Improving looper interfaces Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Travis is posting very serios contributions: >This reminds me of the "alternate synth controller" thread that pops up >in the keyboard world every now and then. It usually starts with someone >bemoaning the fact that the Most Powerful Sound Generating Device Known >To Man is triggered by roughly the same interface that Mozart used on a >harpsichord. Its growing, as you say below, and slow growth it an interesting way. >it took forever for aftertouch to become fairly common. And there was >one keyboard which would would read wiggling the keys from side to side, >so that you could apply vibrato with a guitaristic motion. phantastic! which one? I would like to try... >As far as making looping device interfaces more ergonomic, I'd rather >that money be spent on fixing the feature set, rather then devising some >sort of cuddly accordian-style interface. Every dollar spent on, say, a >large-LCD display on the front of the unit or physical dials to control >parameters is a dollar less spent on developing the software/hardware. -----> I think the developpment of the processor and the controller will be more and more separate. The processor has a strong hardware and can run the software the user likes. The controller has to fit to the use and ability of the player. So the processor should be simple, with a port for any kind of controllers. MIDI is good enough for LOOP processors, I think. We can keep developping parameters that some users will connect to some trick with their controllers. The controller can be cheap or sophisticated, customized or chines. It can be a simple field of keys or a monkeys futuristic rig. It can make use of all parameters or just a few. Some is real now: We do offer a separate Overdubb socket on the Plex, so you can put your key where you want. You can have as many as you want (all without MIDI) and in all forms. Mine is mounted on the volume pedal and reacts on a pressure to the left with the big toe - no complicated installation. SF singer Jim Mahoney built his little box with all the keys he needs and hides it in hand while singing. He knows the fingering and does not need to look at it, nor to stop his walk over the stage - simple, efficient and cheaper than the original pedal! >In addition, I think that looping rigs tend to be more esoteric than the >average musician, who only sends audio in one direction. I remember a >long-lived thread on MIDI foot-controller implementation for the Big Two, >and there didn't seem to be a consensus on what people wanted out of it. >If Lexicon or Oberheim has to try and second guess all the unusual, >one-of-a-kind rigs that the next generation of loopers are going to be >installed into (whoops--scratch Lex, they already decided that looping >was too much work for not enough payback), we'll never see anything. True, gessing is hard. Collecting the information is easyer, but still does not allow to follow every wish. But its the only way to grow, I think. >think that any improvements on the interface front are going to come from >specific solutions to specific problems, not from saying "I wish >everything were more flexible and easier to use!". Very true. A big part of inventing is taking decisions and selecting smartly from infinite options. Think of something >like the Parson's-White B-bender or the Floyd Rose tailpiece, they were >solutions to clearly identified problems ("How can I play this >three-handed lick with two hands?" and "How can I yank on my vibrato bar >all night without going out of tune?"). Granted, they don't represent a >change in the guitar interface, but as we move out of the realm of >physical tone generators and into the more hypothetical realm of digital >audio manipulation, the ground is uncharted. You name the successful ones, unfortunately there were a lot more good inventions that for some reason faded unnoticed, but thats another chapter. Yes, the digital manipulations leaves so many options and makes it very hard to decide. So we will try to individualize more. Thats what the computer is about. If you want to really profit of the flexibility of a digital machine, you allways end up with a general computer with individual software and preference parameters. The probem is, that there is no handy computers for stage, and the controllers need to be improved. Matthias ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:48:04 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: mixer suggestions Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rick was speaking about: > a visual volume pedal that sounds interesting?! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:47:54 -0300 From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias Grob) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainer Update Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Problem is, this needs to be done right, so I'm asking everybody for >suggestions on this... any idea what's required? I'm just going for a lot >of bigger-gauge turns - we'll have no idea of the impedance 'till it's >built - but does anybody have any ideas of the impedance of the Fernandez >neck pickup? Or the current flowing into it, at least? (You guys with Fer. >guitars could measure this by checking the draw from the batteries) If you want to copy the one that works, better buy one. If you want to reinvent it, do it with your inspiration and suffering, it might end up better than the existing! ...and certainly different, individual... >I'm guessing (literally!!!) that I'll need a Z of about 100ohm, producing a >current of about 100mA - a total draw of about 1 Watt. Is that OK or a >bit too extreme? Is 10ma sufficient (I'm guessing it probably isn't)? >Opinions, _please_!! Why not 50ohms to meet an old standard, or even 8, to meet another? It mainly depends on how you power the thing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:32:14 -0700 From: inti@webtv.net (Carlos Carrillo) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Fwd: 606 questions Message-Id: <199706110232.TAA07312@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=WebTV-Mail-358509032-826 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Greetings everyone. This is a little more info on the Symetrix delay. Carlos R. Carrillo Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 13:01:18 -0400 From: "Jon Bosaw [Symetrix]" Subject: 606 questions To: Carlos Carrillo Message-ID: <199706101301_MC2-1836-118F@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Thank you for your email, The memory on the 606 can not be updated. Looping can only be achieved as regenerated echo. However, due to the 24 bit internal processing the unit will continue to play a delayed part for hours without signal loss. Dynamics can be used as a modulation source. It is labelled as "log" in the modulation section. An envelope follower can be created by using "log" to modulate the filter section. The unit is quite open ended regarding modulation and assignment. I hope this has helped to answer your questions. Please feel free to contact Symetrix with any other questions you may have regarding this. Jon Bosaw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:35:32 -0700 From: rick canton To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: mixer suggestions/volumepedal Message-ID: <339E3924.2F2A@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthias Grob wrote: > > Rick was speaking about: > > a visual volume pedal > > that sounds interesting?! the pedal is called visual volume , it`s a passive stereo volume pedal w/, i think ,10 LED`S on the top left side , that shows you where the pedal is -visually- in its throw , i.e. 3/4`s down , 1/2 way, full , none,etc. to see the LED`S you plug in the wall wart adaptor.*the reason i got this pedal is b/c it was the clearest one i`ve hearrd & i`ve had the BOSS pedals & the earnie ball etc , etc...the adaptor isn`t plugged in when i use it , but if you`re on a dark stage or in a dark room ,it would be a great map.... they also make distortion & other type of pedals too....... rick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:58:29 -0400 From: crb@silvertone.Princeton.EDU (Curtis Bahn) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: mixer suggestions/volumepedal Message-Id: <199706110458.AAA23917@silvertone.Princeton.EDU> do you know where this is available? curtis >the pedal is called visual volume , it`s a passive stereo volume pedal... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 04:47:10 -0400 (EDT) From: BlkSwan03@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE: Improving looper interfaces Message-ID: <970611044710_-628898507@emout05.mail.aol.com> In a message dated 6/11/97 5:50:06 AM, you wrote: <<>Perhaps an instructional video tape, for $5 to interested parties? >> A video tape would be great. Done well (not the usual cornball stuff) it would be quite effective. Trouble is, most videos end up with godawful music and truly uninspiring individuals. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:46:08 +0100 From: pycraft@elec.gla.ac.uk (Dr M. P. Hughes) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainer Update Message-Id: <1936.199706111046@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain >> As for buying an EBow, I'll have to judge whether it impinges on= >> my budget >> - after all, Fer sell a whole system for =A3250 ($400)... >Oh my. I paid $69 + shipping for my Ebow here in the U.S. Is it >really that expensive in the UK? They're about £80 ($120-130) ...(that's 80 pounds btw - £ is a pound symbol on _my_ keyboard!!) but by the time the EBow, and the additional pickup etc are added together, plus other bits, it starts getting expensive.... on the sustainer front, I'm trying to find a 100V ac generator to try... Michael Dr Michael Pycraft Hughes Bioelectronic Research Centre, Rankine Bldg, Tel: (+44) 141 330 5979 University of Glasgow, Glasgow G12 8QQ, U.K. "Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid!" - Scottish proverb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:27:56 -0700 From: rick canton To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: mixer suggestions/volumepedal Message-ID: <339E99CC.67F8@cyberportal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Curtis Bahn wrote: > > do you know where this is available? > curtis > > >the pedal is called visual volume , it`s a passive stereo volume pedal... i picked up mine at -guitar center- in boston , i`ve seen adds in guitar player magazine.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:12:30 +0100 From: robin bussell To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainer Update Message-ID: <339E881E.47A3@lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > on the sustainer front, I'm trying to find a 100V ac generator to try... > > Michael > Hi, I'm new to the list so I hope you'll forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but I assume you're investigating electromagnetic methods of producing infinite sustain on guitar notes, well I recall an old roland guitar synth that used a hexaphonic pickup, fed boosted and current limited versions of the signal from each string down that string (the bridge was insulated) and then had a powerful magnet in one of the pickup positions. Have you considered that approach? Robin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:20:56 -0500 (CDT) From: erwill@ix.netcom.com (James E Williamson) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: symetrix delay PLEASE READ Message-Id: <199706111620.LAA20168@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com> mathias wrote: > Memory is cheap, what are they thinking? > >Not every delay is a loop machine. In fact all delay machines only serve >for looping in a limited way. Tempo tap helps but does not resolve. > I talked to one of the designers of this delay on the phone a month ago for about two hours about this delay. I'd like to address a few things. first, the impetus for releasing this delay was that the used prices of low-res old delays (pcm-42, timeline, etc) are reaching ridiculous points in big markets. Believe it or not, the pcm42 is widely used in movie post-production, and the hands-on control is the main reason. Second, the reason there is so little memory in this delay is not because Symetrix are stingy, but the DSP which they are using is only capable of addressing a limited amount of memory. In fact, some features had to be taken out to get as much delay time as there is. (in the original sofware, the bit resolution could be set anywhere between 1 and 24!) If the 606 sells well, which it is, Symetrix will (or may already have) start work on a 606 on steroids, to be ready to ship by the end of the year(!). This new machine will posess all the features of the 606 and more. The memory will be upgradeable, there will be a digital output, there will be more parameters. I have recomended that plex/rang features such as undo, multiply, and reverse (the three most important) be implemented, and they have taken me seriously. The list on the 707(?) will be $200 more than the 606. Think: the power of a vortex and two echoplexes with full midi control, full programmability, and 24-bit processing for less than the cost of ONE of Obie's Echoplexes. This is what the looping community has been waiting for. It will not happen, however, unless we go out and buy the 606. If you have a suggestion as far as features of the 707 go, please give Symetrix a call. You will be connected to somebody who knows whats up. As far as I go, I'm still going to buy my two Echoplexes, but salivate over the quadruple loops I could make with two plexes AND a 707. Thanks... ps.If anybody's interested, I put together a tape compilation of local bands which have played at my shows (I put on underground music shows) in May. I have continously mixed my own ambient loops in between each act. The tape (96min long) was professionally duplicated with a full-colour j-card. If anybody wants to buy one they're available for $6 postpaid. -- James Eric Williamson - erwill@ix.netcom.com - erwill@heartland.bradley.edu One of Peoria's most obscure ambient blues musicians ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:31:50 -0400 From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Non-Guitar Looping Message-ID: >>>John said: > >>I have used >>combinations of guitar, synth and vocals in loops. > >How did you use the voice, and what was the experience? >With lyrics, only refrain, only background sound? > >Matthias << 1. Harmony for layering 2. Voice as a percussive/rhythmic effect. 3. Sampled talking Many things are possible. That was point. The voice is an expressive instrument, as is a guitar or synth. Anything I put in the Mixer (mackie 1202vlz) is fair game for the Jamman. I haven't tried my trombone yet. (spit valve busted) I had some friends in my studio, I opened up a mic and setup a 5 sec loop on the Jamman. They started to interact with there voices once they realized what was happening. Great fun (wish I had recorded it) later >John > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:49:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Paolo Valladolid To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Sustainer Update Message-Id: <199706111649.JAA05903@waynesworld.ucsd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Oh my. I paid $69 + shipping for my Ebow here in the U.S. Is it > >really that expensive in the UK? > > They're about =A380 ($120-130) ...(that's 80 pounds btw - =A3 is= > a pound symbol > on _my_ keyboard!!) but by the time the EBow, and the additional= > pickup > etc are added together, plus other bits, it starts getting expensive....= > =20 > on the sustainer front, I'm trying to find a 100V ac generator to= > try... > > Michael=20 Oh ok. You are including the cost of an additional pickup in addition to the Ebow; though as far as I know, the Ebow does not require a special pickup to operate. Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 13:07:31 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Four second delays Message-Id: <199706111807.LAA11160@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Last week I said that I was unaware of any other long-delay pedals, other than the Zoom 508. The Loopdoctors pointed out the DOD DFX94, which also has 4 seconds. Details are scant on their website, but it appears to be the standard DOD single-wide metal box with one switch and four knobs, and thus no programmability (it also appears to be a mono device). With only one switch I'm unclear as to how you open and close the loop, unless there's a sample/hold mode in which the the delay is always active and the switch just opens the loop for more input. I wish they'd bring back the 8sec, two-switch floorbox. Travis Hartnett --------------------------------