------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: Re: Loopers' Delight CD project link [ Fmplautus ] Re: LiSa (was Re: New to looping/pro [ Fmplautus ] Re: Manual Overwrite (formerly Manue [ Fmplautus ] Re: ANYONE KNOW THE MIDI PEDAL SCHEM [ ENAT21213 ] Re: New to looping/processing [ Curtis Bahn ] Re: Looping with sequencers.. [ Joe Miklojcik ] RE:Time for digitech machine page [ Tom Lambrecht ] digitech phone number???? for manual [ "andre" ] Re: LiSa (was Re: New to looping/pro [ Dpcoffin@aol.com ] Re: LiSa (was Re: New to looping/pro [ Dan Trueman ] Re: New to looping/processing [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] RE: LiSa [ "Ott, John" ] Re: New to looping/processing [ Steven Dubofsky ] Re: New to looping/processing [ "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Loopers' Delight CD project link Message-ID: <1ea56d94.34c5a855@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Matt: The LoOpDoctOrs were mixing as we called you and left messages and tried to access the Loopers-Delight project access link. Unfortunately we couldn't get the link to work and llife occasionally intrudes on looping and one of the Docs had an emergency call to attend to in Portland (no kidding..). We are trying to get all our ducks lined up for the contribution and the only question was who to make the entrance fee check out to. Now, we will wait for all the clever suggestions from the group, and comments about dangling participles. Best, The LoOpDoctOrs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:57:36 EST From: Fmplautus To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LiSa (was Re: New to looping/processing) Message-ID: <730aa315.34c5aa72@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Anybody know how much power a powerbook needs to run LiSa? We have an early one with an 020 processor and eight megs of ram. best, the LoOpDoctOrs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:53:58 EST From: Fmplautus To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Manual Overwrite (formerly Manuel O'Veritas) Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Tom: Great idea. We get the feeling you like your job or something. We'd recommend Elvis over Jackie. Elvis was looping from the waist down from early on. Meanwhile Jackie, while admittedly looking great in a sheath, basically was a linguist, not a musician. Futhermore, no one has seen her face on any planet that we know about. Best, the LoOpDoctOrs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 03:10:42 EST From: ENAT21213 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: ANYONE KNOW THE MIDI PEDAL SCHEME FOR THE ECHOPLEX? Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Thanks for the quick reply Kim. The echoplex sounds way more complex than my jamman.Im thinking of investing in one?The only problem I have is this midi controller/echoplex pedalboard access loop 1 thru 9 tap thing. What I do is midi merge two ada mc1 midi pedal controllers together .This gives me access to all 19 of jammans loop functions without having to bank up and down.The ada mc1 has 10 buttons on the face of one pedalboard.So with the press of a button I can get around with ease (essential for me,especially live).I would love it if the echoplex would react in a similar way.I realize the echoplex does not accept midi program changes messages.You mentioned that this feature will be added in a future echoplex.Any idea when this version will be avalible? Sounds like the midi note or continuous controller message for changing loops in echoplex may work for me?Not shure though,is anyone out there using a similar set up to mine with the echoplex?If so mabey you can let me know how this midi note/continouous controler thing works with your midi pedal.I really need to be able to jump from one function to the next with minimal tapping. Any Oberheim dealers in my area?I live in Myrtle Beach S.C. ,anywhere in S.C.,N.C. or GA. would work.I would love to try one out.I'd probably order one right now if I knew I could access most functions(especially loops 1 thru 9) with the press of one button. Thanks for your help and patience, Brian McKenzie In a message dated 98-01-20 06:39:06 EST, you write: << And last is switching with midi. Unlike the JamMan, the echoplex is more like a sampler in this respect. It uses Midi Notes or Continuous Controller messages for changing loops. If you have the velocity parameter turned on, the Echoplex will use the velocity info in the note on message (or the value of the controller) to set the volume of the loop you switch to. You jump directly to the loop you want by pressing it's associated Note/controller number. (you can set which notes/controllers it uses for the loops.) >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:40:10 -0400 From: Curtis Bahn To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: New to looping/processing Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Also check out MSP, David Zicarelli's signal processing extensions to MAX at http://www.cycling74.com. If you have a powerpc computer you can easily design custom looping and overdubbing algorithms (amoung many other things). It's great ! Programs like MSP and LiSa are taking looping away from the restrictions of commercial hardware, to a whole new level of personal sound design and performance interaction. crb >On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, Rich Lamphear wrote: > >> At 10:45 AM 1/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >> > corret I suppose, if you don't like samplers and sequencers... cause a >> >sampler w/ a fair amount of memory could do everything you need ( i >>believe, >> >barring you're short on equipment). >> >> But I'm not aware of a sampler that allows for real-time overdubbing to >> looped audio while it's playing...is there any such thing (besides Echoplex >> and JamMan?) >> >> I'm only interested in what I can generate live in real-time...not >> interested in sequencing anything ahead of the performance. > >If you feel like dealing with a computer (a Mac), the software >sampler LiSa >will do all this stuff and more. Checkout a demo at www.xs4all.nl. > >Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:06:11 -0500 From: Joe Miklojcik To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping with sequencers.. Message-ID: <34C503B3.B4DDAC75@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been thinking about this alot. There are enough big differences between "sequencer looping" and "delay looping" to make them significantly different. Technologically, the former requires much less memory. Audially, the decay of past generations is somewhat more interesting with the later, although this is a purely subjective judgement. When you play a note into a MIDI sequencer loop, what is typically recorded is 1) what note you played and 2) how hard you played it ("velocity"). This takes somewhere around five bytes to represent in your sequencer (three for the actual MIDI data, a couple of bytes overhead for timing data) regardless of how long your loop is. Now say you want this to feedback at a nice robust 95%; enough to keep the beat around, but also to let old material leave as you evolve the loop. What this means in MIDI is that the note is played a second time without you doing anything at 95% of its original velocity, and then the third time at 95% of 95% of the original velocity, and so on. When you play a note into a digital delay loop, you're essentially recording digital audio. Just for the sake of comparison, let us say that's 44100 2-byte samples every second of loop (that's somewhere near CD-quality in mono). This means 88200 bytes per second of loop for our delay buffer! Now say you want this to feedback at a nice robust 95%; blah blah blah. What this means to a digital delay is that the relative amplitude of each sample is reduced 95% each time it goes through the delay buffer. That's the kicker. When you reduce the velocity of a MIDI note-on message, you are not necessarily reducing the amplitude of the sound. In fact, in most cases, you're changing the sound in very many more ways than amplitude. The effect is far different than if you had used a digital delay for the same purpose. The selection of what modulations occur in response to velocity is critical in this sort of technique. Also, most MIDI synthesizers can only play so many sustained notes at the same time; with a digital delay there is no such limitation. This is part of what makes MIDI loop sequencing attractive for percussion tracks; percussion sounds don't usually sustain for very long, so you don't run out of "voices" in your synth. Also, in usual styles of percussion track evolution (I'm thinking of the x0xes), the "delay feedback" is 100%; to evolve the track you build a completely new one and cut or xfade to it, or play with outboard effects. In sum; you can't easily sound like a Frippertroid with just MIDI sequencer looping. Finally, at the risk of being a horrid A/D troll, I believe that analog tape delays are likely to have a significantly different sound than digital delays, due to the audio characteristics of tape saturation. I wouldn't be sure though, I've never played through an analog tape delay before. (Y 'jfm3) P.S. Interesting... It was certainly once the case that good recording tape was less expensive than computer memory. Nowadays, I'm not so sure that's the case anymore. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:51:06 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Lambrecht To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE:Time for digitech machine page Message-Id: <199801202051.PAA03244@newman.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kim: I'm, assuming that if some misguided soul who didn' get enuf attention as a child was intrigued by the thankless prospect of compiling various boring technical minutiae regarding an inanimate object that has been out of production for years into a FAQ that less than a handful of people will ever see (and when they do, will curse their search engine) . . . . that you would turn the text file into a finished Loopers Web page complete with head counter, flashing messages and the previously mentioned super models fiddling with the KNOBS (AAAOOOOOOOHHHHH . . . KNOBS) on a vintage RDS 8000 with Real-Time Audio and Puddling Video and Java and . . . . Ahem . . well if that is the case, (and if and only the rest of the Deviate League of Time Machinists contribute to the project), I'd have a go . . . Just think . . . bigger than the Jamman (sorry, Greg) . . .more highly sought after than the Eplex (sorry, Tom) , , , capturing more ridiculous bids on the vintage market than Sheryl Crowe's old sox . . . let me know--the world is poised, breathlessly awaiting (and it's time for my medication) >:>::>::>::>:>::>::>: Tom assumed responsibility for collecting and compilingAt 11:03 AM 1/20/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >Kim Flint wrote: > >> At 3:22 PM -0800 1/19/98, Stephen P. Goodman wrote: >> >KRosser414 asked: >> >>appears to be capable of some great stuff, but I need a manual. Anyone >> >>have one? I'd gladly pay for a xerox & postage... >> > >> > >> >I've got their number at home, which I called when I got MINE - and got the >> >manual FREE. >> >> hey, if someone wants to scan the manual, I'd be happy to put it on the >> website. >> >> Also, lots of great info has been posted about this box. It would be great >> if someone could complile it all into a FAQ for the Time Machine page. That >> poor lonely page sure could use someone to take care of it! >> >> Just think of the fame and self promotion it would gain you... Looper's >> Delight gets over 3000 hits a week. All those people looking at YOUR >> handywork....imagine: the job offers come streaming in....overflowing bank >> accounts....new home studio toys....parties with rock stars and super >> models....it could all be yours, just for one measly web page..... >> >> kim >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >> kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html >> http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com > > >Kim... I love the Digitech Time Machine...... > I love Music made with the digitech time machine.... > I love the loopers delight web page.... > > I'm just not smart enough to post my own web page.... > > Sorry....:( > I had to be good at something and it wasn't computers > > > > Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:35:39 -0500 From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping with sequencers.. Message-Id: <199801211235.AA16477@world.std.com> >There are enough big differences between "sequencer looping" and "delay >looping" to make them significantly different. >Audially, the decay of past generations is >somewhat more interesting with the later, although this is a purely >subjective judgement. Well... that depends _what_ you thing "decay of past generations" should be. Most audio loopists advocate "the old sound gets quieter and the new sound gets mixed in". Some "hardcore _tape_ loopists" demand the sound of tape with that lowpass filter per loop evolution as "the sound of decay" that they want. Of course, by putting the loop feedback outside of the looper, you can put any effects you want in the loop, although probably at the cost of having to limit the maximum feedback significantly. (But, I don't know anyone who actually does this on a regular basis.) On the other hand, what can MIDI loops do? As you say, "fading" the velocity over time isn't really the same as fading the volume over time. Of course, you can program your synthesizer to do whatever you want in response to the velocity, e.g. only fade volume, close a filter, etc. What you give up is the expressiveness of having the velocity of the original note & the volume decreasing. And that's it, right? That's all you can do for decaying a MIDI loop? Well... how about: - decay by shortening the durations each iteration - "decay" by making the note sound less and less often each iteration (e.g. 4 seconds, then 8, then 16, then 32; or perhaps the fibonacci sequence when you want something more weird--or the prime numbers when you want something unpredictable) - make each "iteration" transmit on its own MIDI channel; then you give each channel its own program, with a volume ramp across all the channels (giving you independent fade and key velocity). Heck, while you're at it, you can make each channel use a different patch/sound/sample and get "echoes" that change instruments. Or maybe use a single sound, but have the volume ramp _up_ instead of down, a sort of "reverse echo". Wow! It seems like there's a lot more possibilities with MIDI looping than at first glance. The big problems that I see: >Also, most MIDI synthesizers can only play so many sustained notes >at the same time; with a digital delay there is no such limitation. I think it's safe to say ALL synthesizers have this problem. This "problem" is of course exactly the thing you don't take advantage if you "MIDI loop naively". The delay doesn't need to "resynthesize" the notes, but the MIDI looper does--so maybe take advantage of that resynthesis. I was thinking about just getting 1 or 2 64-voice MIDI synthesizers to address this problem; that's a lot of money, unfortunately (the Alesis NanoSynth and siblings aren't multi-timbral, and I think they're limited in programming). The other big problem turns out to be MIDI (boy, ZIPI would be much better for this), since you're limited to 16 distinct "channel configurations" (i.e. settings of channel volume, channel pitch bend, etc) which limits how much interesting echo effects you can do without relying on altering the key velocity. With an 8 second loop, 16 tracks of echo will disappear in just over two minutes, though, which isn't _that_ bad. I'm thinking of something like "do cool stuff for 15 echoes and then just key velocity fade out the notes on the 16th track". Unfortunately, doing all of this gives up putting multi-timbral input _into_ the MIDI looper, since each input channel would need its own bank of output channels. >In sum; you can't easily sound like a Frippertroid >with just MIDI sequencer looping. Not with any available software. I'm working[1] on it though. Sean Barrett currently only in the design stages unfortunately ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:29:59 -0500 From: "andre" To: Subject: female looper, by proxy Message-Id: <199801211329.IAA13378@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello Laurie & Corynne.... i can't get my girlfriend to type into this thing, but for the record, she's a looping fiend as well - we have a bizarre improv oriented looping duo, i play guitarsynth, triggering kawai & yamaha synths, etc, plus vortex, etc etc Cheri is a drummer/percussionist, she makes mad loops with her digitech looper (i forget the #) and a roland ms(??) 100 for live sequence/loops. she also triggers an awesome alesis nanosynth with a drum-kat midi pad set, also some old boss pads. It all loops around and we talk about heavens gate, the gulf war forced vaccination program, or the DARE song over the top of it.... we have a friend named Jane Scarpantoni - she plays cello for Tiny Lights, Indigo Girls, Lounge Lizards. I believe she does a little looping at times.... we have a 80min tape available - we love to trade it for similar releases - we've gotten some cool stuff fr. people on this very list MINUS, OLIVIER MALHOMME and FINGERPAINT are all great !! So - to everyone - email direct re: trade or getting our tape. we'r eplaying this sunday with Elliott Sharp and Chris Haskett of the Rollins band -it'll be an alternative to the superbowl!! andre@monmouth.com > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:43:53 -0500 From: "andre" To: Subject: digitech phone number???? for manuals Message-Id: <199801211343.IAA17001@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit how does one reach digitech (i know, i'm lazy, but it's easier to ask rather than swim thru the voice mail/menu stuff. no time) - i need a time mach manual , fro the fun of it, if they're free. andre@monmouth.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:54:34 -0500 (EST) From: Dpcoffin@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LiSa (was Re: New to looping/processing) Message-ID: <980121105434_186410898@mrin54> Hey, I want to hear more about LiSa...went to the URL given and couldn't figure out WHAT it was, even in English (or find a ref to LiSa)....and a web search brought up nothing on the thing....HELP! and THANKS! dpc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:12:06 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Trueman To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: LiSa (was Re: New to looping/processing) Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII OK, I found the specific link you need: http://www.xs4all.nl/~steim/lisa.html Pretty cool; I've used it a lot in performance. It has never crashed, and it is quite flexible... You can download a demo from them. dan On Wed, 21 Jan 1998 Dpcoffin@aol.com wrote: > Hey, I want to hear more about LiSa...went to the URL given and couldn't > figure out WHAT it was, even in English (or find a ref to LiSa)....and a web > search brought up nothing on the thing....HELP! and THANKS! > dpc > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:53:54 EST From: ZeplinSoup To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping with sequencers.. Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I like it when David letterman describes someone as "loopy" anywayz regarding sequencers and looping...I use my sequencer(cakewalk or LogicAudio) to set the loop time on the Jamman.typically I will have a drum loop with the # of beats I need.I will send a program change message at the 1st beat and another to define the end of the loop (5:01:000 for a four bar loop).Now i have drums that are in synch with the jamman allowing me to keep a consistent time feel from loop to loop...next i eitsometimes add to the drums by outputting it to the vortex which is setup with the same tempo.I just play next until I start to get something cool goin on...hopefully I can piece together the seperate loops into a coherent song (kinda).This metod insures that the different loops will stay in synch with each other..also with the jamman if you need other loops in different tempos or perhaps the same tempo but a different number of beats....no problem !should be easy this way...once i have a collection of loops it is very easy to now add other MIDi instruments--different drums---whatever let your imagination go wild...that will easily match the tempo feel of the audio loops...at this point i usually manipulate regions and playlists,and do some dsp if needed.... Reeve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 10:43:06 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: New to looping/processing Message-Id: <199801211642.IAA6887530@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >I think (and we could do this to death) that unless you're _really_ going >to get into looping (and get an EDP), the JM was just too expensive at its >original price. Sound quality apart, most people don't want a helluvalot >more functionality than the Zoom 508. If it had more memory and a "fade" >function, I'd trade my JM for a 508!!! What do you mean by a "fade" function? Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:04:22 EST From: Texture444 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: some torn live stuff Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hey, y'all. since i don't play 'live' too often, methought to letcha know of some upcoming appearances--- (looping being moot, here, in my ittybitty world): 2/11, nyc: w/ryuichi sakamoto, dj spooky et orchestre chambre @ the world financial center (marking the release of rs' cd, "discord", on sony classics). (pretty much ambient-style "looping only", hardly any guitar stuff involved). 2/27, l.a.: i'm giving a 'master' (!hah!) class @ california institute of the arts. 3/1, l.a.: solo concert @ mccabes, in santa monica. 3/10, nyc: trio performance w/elliott sharp & vernon reid @ the knitting factory. 4/6-20, japan/usa: w/tony levin, bill bruford & chris botti @ various joints (letcha know when we do: yeah), playing the stuff from tony's upcoming CD. maybe seeya & all best, dontcha know: david torn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:54:04 -0600 From: "Ott, John" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: LiSa Message-ID: I think in order to do real time you need a powerbook that supports asynchronous I/O, otherwise the recording and playback will be bursty and the sound breaks up. You need to stream the data hence the need for asynchronous I/O. That would limit it to the 500 series, the 5300 and the 3400, I don't know if the new G3 powerbook have asynchronous. I/O or not. You can download the demo and try it to see if your powerbook will work. The demo is fully functional you just can't save any samples. later John > ---------- > From: Fmplautus > Reply To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 8:06 AM > To: John_Ott@ATK.COM > Subject: Re: LiSa (was Re: New to looping/processing) > > Anybody know how much power a powerbook needs to run LiSa? We have an > early > one with an 020 processor and eight megs of ram. > > best, > the LoOpDoctOrs > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:35:13 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Dubofsky To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: New to looping/processing Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, T.W. Hartnett wrote: > >I think (and we could do this to death) that unless you're _really_ going > >to get into looping (and get an EDP), the JM was just too expensive at its > >original price. Sound quality apart, most people don't want a helluvalot > >more functionality than the Zoom 508. If it had more memory and a "fade" > >function, I'd trade my JM for a 508!!! > > What do you mean by a "fade" function? > if he's talking about feedback than it does it. I spent about 6 hours with my 508 yesterday, damn nice piece for a measily 100 bucks. i love children..... especially in soups and salads skullsaw's brainstem http://www.gti.net/skullsaw ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:28:39 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: New to looping/processing Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980121192839.191fe066@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Me: >>more functionality than the Zoom 508. If it had more memory and a "fade" >>function, I'd trade my JM for a 508!!! Travis: >What do you mean by a "fade" function? A way of dropping the feedback level. The JM has three non-unity feedback settings - "short","medium" and "long" fades. Unfortunately, they're only available via MIDI which rather hampers operation, hence my search to find a pedal which activates one of the Fades. BTW, thanks to everyone who responded about the MIDI pedal - I think the MIDIsolutions pedal looks ideal. Michael PS Lex people, what are the feedback levels for Fade? I have no idea, never having tried them.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:31:41 -0500 From: innerspace@mediaone.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Manual Overwrite (formerly Manuel O'Veritas) Message-ID: <34C65B2D.3DB35707@mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Spaulding wrote: > Doctors of Loop and all ye assembled Loopers- > > Yea, verily the Echoplex manual doth not suffice. It is an excellent > overview, (thank you Warren Sirota)but the unit is too deep to talk about, > it is maybe best explained with examples. It even has the awful reputation > of being complex! > > Therefore, everyone on this list who wants to contribute to re-writing the > manual, (to be edited by the fabulous Jackie O. herself), please choose a > section you feel most competent with and re-write it. I will collect all > efforts and re-print a manual written by the actual experienced users of > the Echoplex. > > Kind of like a Lutheran Ladies Auxiliary cookbook, with italicized credits > at the bottom of each recipe thanking the author(s). We will incorporate > the "best of" the digest archives and hopefully Kim and Co.'s helpful > pages, etc. Free t-shirt to all who contribute. Pepsi and balloons for the > kids. > > All in favor of manual by committee e-mail me. All opposed, look upon the > book ye mighty and despair! > > (Some may think this is a low-budget, pandering, corporate-drive, attempt > to enlist off-payroll intellects and transform them into glorified tech > manual authors solely because they have spent the time necessary to truly > understand the product at a level the so-called Product Manager at Oberheim > cannot hope to attain without weeks and months of sleepless night. They are > correct. Thank you.) > > Tom "UnaLooper" KuzIsedzo ;) > I'm all for the idea of corporate chaos, however, I was so unsuccessfull in decoding the manual that is in existence in this reality, today, that I have no technical knowledge whatsoever in comparison to everybody else on this list... but I have to say, you rule. --------------------------------