------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 16 Today's Topics: Re: www-cycling74 wow.:) [ Curtis Bahn ] Re: some torn live stuff [ cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupre ] Pentatonic scales [ Malhomme Olivier ] dsp based [ innerspace@mediaone.net ] Echoplex Upgrade Chip Installation T [ Pat Murphy ] Hunting an Echoplex from Italy... [ "Stefano Voulaz" ] Re: www-cycling74 wow.:) [ Dan Trueman ] Re: Stick/Loop Show [ "andre" ] "Door X" worth checking out [ "T.W. Hartnett" ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:48:17 -0400 From: Curtis Bahn To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: www-cycling74 wow.:) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 1:38 PM -0800 1/21/98, Paolo Valladolid wrote: >>> Curtis Bahn wrote: >>> >>> > Also check out MSP, David Zicarelli's signal processing extensions to MAX >>> > at http://www.cycling74.com. If you have a powerpc computer you can >>>easily >>> > design custom looping and overdubbing algorithms (amoung many other >>> > things). It's great ! Programs like MSP and LiSa are taking looping >>>away >>> > from the restrictions of commercial hardware, to a whole new level of >>> > personal sound design and performance interaction. >>> > crb >kim flint wrote >One thing kind of troubling about the computer based systems for real-time >use is the latency problems. (meaning the time it would take for audio to >be sent in and sent back out again.) On the MSP site some typical latencies >are actually listed as: > >Audio input to audio output latency on a 9600/300: > Using the Digidesign Audiomedia III: 46ms > Using the Sound Manager: 294ms > >that's definitely in the range where you would notice it in some >situations, especially with looping and trying to maintain precise grooves. >And this is on a very fast (and expensive) system! I know that PC's suffer >from the same problem. The audio has to go through a lot of operating >system to get to where it's useable, and a lot more operating system to get >out again. > >So those of you using systems like these for real-time audio I/O, how do >you deal with that? Are you able to operate it with any timing precision >for real-time audio events? And I don't mean hard disk recording where the >system has opportunities to compensate for the latency. I mean audio really >going in and out, like you might have on a typical stand alone audio >processor. Anyone? > Latency can be a real problem sometimes. Especially on a powerbook, the technology is not really there yet to have an inexpensive self-contained system that can deal with all the audio processing and performance I/O in real-time without some significant lag. This is part of the justification of KYMA where you have a dedicated external audio engine to execute your looping and signal processing programs. Systems like this and MARS have very powerful programming environments for the musician to design their own performance algorithms. More and more, development environments such as these combine complete flexibility in terms of your sound designs, and easy, intuitive graphical programming languages. (info on these systems can be found at http://www.emf.org/sites/software.html.) It's just a matter of time until most all of our gadgets will offer some level of this kind of interface. A significant issue for me is, "what am I gonna do with it once I have it." For that reason alone, I spend a lot of time on my powerbook hacking MAX/MSP. In performance I get more realistic about stuff like looping and either cart a couple of dedicated fast computers along with me , or trim down the real-time signal processing on my notebook computer and farm it out to my Echoplex, jam man, Boomerang or EH16. In some cases, like making rich ambient textures, the latency just desn't matter and it is a reasonable price to pay to be in control of more aspects of what your signal processing device is doing. We're certainly in a transition period between hardware and software based models for our toys. It's pretty exciting. Especially in performance areas like looping (which isn't that "expensive" in terms of computer processing and won't incur as much latency as more complicated signal processing) this technology is offering new creative, idiosyncratic opportunities for musicians. It also frees us from our traditional relationship to signal processing device makers where we can often grovel and beg for a simple feature that would make a world of difference to our music, but won't ever be implemented generally because it isn't important enough to the market as a whole. cheers, crb -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Curtis Bahn iEAR Studios, DCC 135 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Troy, New York, 12180 office (518) 276-4032 fax (518) 276-4780 email crb@rpi.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:49:53 -0500 From: cdeupree@interagp.com (Caleb Deupree) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com CC: benedict@netcom.com Subject: Re: some torn live stuff Message-ID: <19980122134952250.AAA44@LARCH.interagp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>> "Stew" == Stew Benedict writes: Stew> I've been meaning to mention I've recently been enjoying Stew> "Polytown", thanks to a lead from this group. David, if Stew> you're listening, this is awesome stuff! Does anyone have Stew> any leads on other Torn titles? I find "Cloud About Stew> Mercury" everywhere, been scouring closeouts and used shops Stew> and found "Door X" once, but someone swiped the CD from the Stew> jewel case. The combo of Torn, Karn, and Bozzio on Stew> "Polytown" is absolutely amazing. Cloud about Mercury has the advantage of being generally available and excellent. It features what was at the time the King Crimson rhythm section (Bill Bruford on percussion, including electronic; and Tony Levin on bass and stick), plus Mark Isham on trumpet. Highly recommended. However, I hated Door X. Trite rock music with none of what I consider Torn's distinctive stylings. I think I remember singing. It's on Windham Hill, which used to be an OK label, but not known for their rock music. CMP, Torn's most recent label, has gone under, so his solo disks on that label are getting hard to find, but IMHO worth tracking down. The ones to seek out are Tripping Over God and What Means Solid, Traveler? They are mostly solo Torn, although he overdubs percussion and more than one guitar part. I like these two very much as well, and are probably most representative of his current work (Cloud about Mercury must be at least 10 years old). Mick Karn had a couple of albums on CMP, Bestial Cluster and Tooth Mother, that I think featured Torn as well. More singing than on Polytown, but it worked well, and was not on every track. And if you can find it, Torn was part of an outfit called Everyman Band. A web listing mentions Marty Fogel on sax, but I seem to remember Shankar on violin. --- Caleb T. Deupree ;; Opinions are not necessarily shared by management Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. (Pablo Picasso) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:09:13 +0000 From: Malhomme Olivier To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Pentatonic scales Message-ID: <34C76F29.53DA@infobiogen.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A close japanese friend sent me the different pentatonic scales used in japanese music. I felt it could be of use to you all in case you would look for other colors: MIYAKOBUSHI (For Koto, Shamisen) D Eb G A Bb (strings 5,6,7,8,9 for Koto, fundamental tuning) RITSU (Don't know why...) D E G A B MINYOO (folk songs) D F G A B RYUUKYUU (OKINAWA music) D F# G A C# Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:12:48 EST From: MIvanBerk To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: PDS- and RDS-8000 Message-ID: <7665f95c.34c761f2@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The RDS adds an LFO for modulation effects. -mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:17:21 -0500 From: innerspace@mediaone.net To: "Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: dsp based Message-ID: <34C76301.B692EB8C@mediaone.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------12651E2985B44240B6A20686" Latency can be a real problem sometimes.  Especially on a powerbook, the technology is not really there yet to have an inexpensive self-contained system that can deal with all the audio processing and performance I/O in real-time without some significant lag. This is part of the justification of  KYMA  where you have a dedicated external audio engine to execute your looping and signal processing programs.  Systems like this and MARS have very powerful programming environments for the musician to design their own performance algorithms. More and more, development environments such as these combine complete flexibility in terms of your sound designs, and easy, intuitive graphical programming languages.  (info on these systems can be found at http://www.emf.org/sites/software.html.) It's just a matter of time until most all of our gadgets will offer some level of this kind of interface.  A significant issue for me is, "what am I gonna do with it once I have it."  For that reason alone, I spend a lot of time on my powerbook hacking MAX/MSP.  In performance I get more realistic about stuff like looping and either cart a couple of dedicated fast computers along with me , or trim down the real-time signal processing on my notebook computer and farm it out to my Echoplex, jam man, Boomerang or EH16. In some cases, like making rich ambient textures,  the latency just desn't matter and it is a reasonable price to pay to be in control of more aspects of what your signal processing device is doing.  We're certainly in a transition period between hardware and software based models for our toys. It's pretty exciting.  Especially in performance areas like looping (which isn't that "expensive" in terms of computer processing and won't incur as much latency as more complicated signal processing) this technology is offering new creative, idiosyncratic opportunities for musicians.  It also frees us from our traditional relationship to signal processing device makers where we can often grovel and beg for a simple feature that would make a world of difference to our music, but won't ever be implemented generally because it isn't important enough to the market as a whole. cheers, crb                   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Curtis Bahn iEAR Studios, DCC 135 Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute Troy, New York,     I would have to agree with the opinion that external dsp based audio systems kick butt in a general and nonspecific way, and that we are moving away from obsessive software/hardware based systems...  I'd have to say that I'd sell out immediately to the first company that created an audio system that was built like a killer-computer (dedicated to audio processing) but incorporated both the physical design features and the functionality of the audio equipment that all this PC/Mac stuff is trying to emulate...     There are a number of systems out there that combine ISA/PCI cards w/ external rackmountable interfaces.  The most exciting of these that I've been blessed to look at and drool at is the Layla system.  I'm not certain whether or not this type of system fits in to the same category as KYMA or MARS, I'm guessing its just a bit less powerful than these systems.... then again, Layla isn't $4000.00, so whats to be expected. uh oh, my mind doth wander....me done fergot me point....... gotta go to work. bye bye.     ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:57:02 -0600 From: Pat Murphy To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Echoplex Upgrade Chip Installation Tips Message-Id: <98Jan22.095439cst.26886@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I packed and sent out close to 50 upgrade chip sets last week. I sent info about what the upgrade does but no info on installing them. Sorry about that. For those of you who subscribe to this list, here is some information to help with the installation. Open the Echoplex. There will be two chips. One is labeled even and the other is labeled odd. Remove the chips and replace them with the new ones. Be sure that even replaces even and odd replaces odd. Also, make sure that the end of the chip that has the orientation indentation is oriented in the same direction as the old chip. This is more important than the direction of the label. Looking down on the circuit board from the front of the Echoplex, the indentations should face to the left. After installing the chips, you will need to reinitialize the Echoplex. With the Echoplex turned off, hold down the parameter button and then turn the 'Plex on. Wait about 5 or 6 seconds or until the LEDs go through their power up routine. Turn the power off and then back on. You should be good to go. As with any chip installation, take any and all precautions to head off static electricity. Avoid shag carpet. thanks Pat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:07:10 +0100 From: "Stefano Voulaz" To: "Loopers!" Subject: Hunting an Echoplex from Italy... Message-ID: <01bd274f$cb8cbda0$6902a8c0@voulaz> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yo! I know it's being difficult for you in US to get Echoplexes, but... is there anyone able to suggest me some sources (shops) for buying one unit (my second one, actually) via web? Looks like they're coming out of dark labs! Many thanks... and happy looping! The Uncle 8^)# ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:26:53 -0500 (EST) From: Dan Trueman To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: www-cycling74 wow.:) Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "Just around the corner" is already here (sort of) in terms of latency: the Layla card offers latencies well under 10ms, and a bunch of folks are doing development for it. On an SGI running MAX/FTS (or other stuff), latencies can get as low as 2ms (but who wants to carry around an SGI? Well, actually, I probably would if I had one). Even with the substantial latencies, I have found the uses of programs like LiSa to be really inspiring. It is also possible to learn how to "play" the latencies by slightly anticipating events. It's not ideal if you want really really tight timing, but given the flexibility, it may be worth it. Having an easily configurable sampling system that offers multiple-voice playback (as many as your CPU can handle: you can get lots more than 30 voices on some of the faster machines), transposition, looping, and signal processing is pretty exciting, and I've learned to work with the latency. But I also still farm stuff out to Jammen sometimes; I may not for long though... Some people of been exploring the musical possibilities of HUGE latencies through internet jams. Last month some folks in NYC jammed with some other folks in Japan where latencies where up around 10 seconds, at least! It's a feature, not a bug... Dan On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Curtis Bahn wrote: > >At 1:38 PM -0800 1/21/98, Paolo Valladolid wrote: > >>> Curtis Bahn wrote: > >>> > >>> > Also check out MSP, David Zicarelli's signal processing extensions to MAX > >>> > at http://www.cycling74.com. If you have a powerpc computer you can > >>>easily > >>> > design custom looping and overdubbing algorithms (amoung many other > >>> > things). It's great ! Programs like MSP and LiSa are taking looping > >>>away > >>> > from the restrictions of commercial hardware, to a whole new level of > >>> > personal sound design and performance interaction. > >>> > crb > > >kim flint wrote > >One thing kind of troubling about the computer based systems for real-time > >use is the latency problems. (meaning the time it would take for audio to > >be sent in and sent back out again.) On the MSP site some typical latencies > >are actually listed as: > > > >Audio input to audio output latency on a 9600/300: > > Using the Digidesign Audiomedia III: 46ms > > Using the Sound Manager: 294ms > > > >that's definitely in the range where you would notice it in some > >situations, especially with looping and trying to maintain precise grooves. > >And this is on a very fast (and expensive) system! I know that PC's suffer > >from the same problem. The audio has to go through a lot of operating > >system to get to where it's useable, and a lot more operating system to get > >out again. > > > >So those of you using systems like these for real-time audio I/O, how do > >you deal with that? Are you able to operate it with any timing precision > >for real-time audio events? And I don't mean hard disk recording where the > >system has opportunities to compensate for the latency. I mean audio really > >going in and out, like you might have on a typical stand alone audio > >processor. Anyone? > > > > Latency can be a real problem sometimes. Especially on a powerbook, the > technology is not really there yet to have an inexpensive self-contained > system that can deal with all the audio processing and performance I/O in > real-time without some significant lag. > > This is part of the justification of KYMA where you have a dedicated > external audio engine to execute your looping and signal processing > programs. Systems like this and MARS have very powerful programming > environments for the musician to design their own performance algorithms. > More and more, development environments such as these combine complete > flexibility in terms of your sound designs, and easy, intuitive graphical > programming languages. (info on these systems can be found at > http://www.emf.org/sites/software.html.) > > It's just a matter of time until most all of our gadgets will offer some > level of this kind of interface. A significant issue for me is, "what am I > gonna do with it once I have it." For that reason alone, I spend a lot of > time on my powerbook hacking MAX/MSP. In performance I get more realistic > about stuff like looping and either cart a couple of dedicated fast > computers along with me , or trim down the real-time signal processing on > my notebook computer and farm it out to my Echoplex, jam man, Boomerang or > EH16. > > In some cases, like making rich ambient textures, the latency just desn't > matter and it is a reasonable price to pay to be in control of more aspects > of what your signal processing device is doing. We're certainly in a > transition period between hardware and software based models for our toys. > It's pretty exciting. Especially in performance areas like looping (which > isn't that "expensive" in terms of computer processing and won't incur as > much latency as more complicated signal processing) this technology is > offering new creative, idiosyncratic opportunities for musicians. It also > frees us from our traditional relationship to signal processing device > makers where we can often grovel and beg for a simple feature that would > make a world of difference to our music, but won't ever be implemented > generally because it isn't important enough to the market as a whole. > > cheers, > crb > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Curtis Bahn > iEAR Studios, DCC 135 > Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute > Troy, New York, > 12180 > office (518) 276-4032 > fax (518) 276-4780 > email crb@rpi.edu > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:50:57 -0500 From: "andre" To: Subject: Re: some torn rec. CDs Message-Id: <199801221650.LAA21919@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dave t also has TRIPPING OVER GOD and WHAT MEANS SOLID, TRAVELLER.. on the defunct CMP - tho i got one store to order it for me.... get them fast !!!! also on some Mark Isham discs - very cool jazz/ambient trumpet player.... he's on CLOUD, of course a killer one to get is the Mick Karn CDs TOOTH MOTHER & BESTIAL CLUSTER DT is on both and they rule. Mick rules. what the hell is he doing right now?? also - i forget the title, BEST LAID PLANS (??) i think it's on ECM so you can actually get it! -it's a DT duo album with a percussionist - cool, loopy, ambient stuff, his rig was a merely mortal at that point, it seems. DT should join AZA for a tour/CD - AZA is will calhoun (does tons of looping with a jamman and a korg wavedrum) and doug wimbush (bassist with a rig from hell, with several looping devices on the floor and in - rack) - these guys were the living colour rhythm section , they now have this group, with bernie worrell and a floating sax player. andre@monmouth.com ---------- > From: Stew Benedict > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > Subject: Re: some torn live stuff > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 6:44 AM > > > I've been meaning to mention I've recently been enjoying "Polytown", > thanks to a lead from this group. David, if you're listening, this is > awesome stuff! Does anyone have any leads on other Torn titles? I find > "Cloud About Mercury" everywhere, been scouring closeouts and used shops > and found "Door X" once, but someone swiped the CD from the jewel case. > The combo of Torn, Karn, and Bozzio on "Polytown" is absolutely amazing. > > Stew Benedict > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:04:27 -0500 From: "andre" To: Subject: Re: Stick/Loop Show Message-Id: <199801221604.LAA04800@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit so - you are in jersy! bummer - i will miss your 24th gig - i'll be playing in long island sat nite with my zappa tribute band (are you into zappa?) but keep me posted - i love the stick - i played on a bill once where there was a stick/perc duo..... maybe we could set up a loop night at a club around here - the downtown cafe in redbank... i'm also friends with Bon Lozaga - he's always looking to do somethin' up this way (he's south jersey) see ya!! andre' (see gig info under other mail) andre@monmouth.com ---------- From: PMimlitsch To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com; stickwire-l@netcom.com Subject: Stick/Loop Show Date: Wednesday, January 21, 1998 7:13 PM "Explorations in Time and Space" - an evening of Soundscapes and Improvisations w/Paul Mimlitsch (Chapman StickŪ/Loops) and J. Jody Janetta (Percussion/Loops/Treated Voice). Day/Date-Sat. Jan. 24th. Place-Cafe Seattle (354-2220), Haddonfield, New Jersey. (The corner of Haddon and Redman). Time-8:00pm to closing. ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 10:41:26 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: "Door X" worth checking out Message-Id: <199801221641.IAA09594@scv4.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >However, I hated Door X. Trite rock music with none of what I >consider Torn's distinctive stylings. I think I remember singing. >It's on Windham Hill, which used to be an OK label, but not known for >their rock music. I'd seen "Door X" slammed for years, but hadn't been able to find a copy to complete my Torn collection. Recently I found one, and I like it. If you don't like the singing, skip every other track, but I had no problem with the vocals. In no way would I describe this as "trite rock music". Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:21:18 -0800 From: "Matt McCabe" To: Subject: Re: "Door X" worth checking out Message-Id: <199801221819.KAA26832@gw1.bi-tech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: T.W. Hartnett > I'd seen "Door X" slammed for years, but hadn't been able to find a copy > to complete my Torn collection. Recently I found one, and I like it. If > you don't like the singing, skip every other track, but I had no problem > with the vocals. I like Door X as well. The last track, which I believe is called Door X, features IMO one of Torn's most emotional and beautiful solos ever. A personal favorite. Matt --------------------------------