------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: Re: looping over the Internet - one [ Jeff Duke ] Re: looping over the Internet - one [ Tom Spaulding ] Re: some torn rec. CDs [ Jeff Duke ] Re: looping over the Internet - one [ "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." ------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: Re: looping over the Internet - one [ Jeff Duke < ] Re: looping over the Internet - one [ Tom Spaulding < ] Re: some torn rec. CDs [ Jeff Duke < ] Re: looping over the Internet - one [ "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." < ] Re: looping over the Internet - one [ "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." < ] Re: looping over the Internet - one [ Jeff Duke < ] Re: praxis (ws some torn rec. CDs) [ Kim Flint < ] Re: praxis ...and Buckethead and Las [ Fmplautus < ] buckethead [ PJBMHB < ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:26:48 -0500 From: Jeff Duke < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-ID: <<34C92738.C8EB63EE@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well,we can't let a little thing like corporate visionary's(oxymoron?)stop us.Of course I'm speaking from a completely naive viewpoint as I have had very little experiance with computers or the internet.It just seemed like an impossibility 1 mo. ago that I would have a web page and the other things that I have seen/heard on the internet,even though it does seem to be a high-tech covered wagon at times,lead me to believe that we "ain't seen nothin' yet" and the future of the direction and possibilities are ultimately up to the ones who go ahead with or without any support. sorry for the diatribe, Jeff Duke sr. TecBabLabs,I know it looks and sounds funny,but then so do I http://members.tripod.com/~dukesr/index.html Kim Flint wrote: > We were working on this idea at g-wiz several years ago. It's an interesting > concept, with some unique challenges and possibilities. Unfortunately, most > of the people working on it got fired right about the time they were about > to produce some initial demos, so nothing came of it. Gibson never had a > clue what they lost when they did that. too bad.... > > kim > > At 04:35 PM 1/23/98 -0500, Jeff Duke wrote: > >I have been pondering how this could be accomplished myself.I have heard about > >jamming with midi over the internet but audio?hmmm,maybe bandwith is god(small > >g) > >Jeff Duke sr. > >Darcy Clark wrote: > > > >> It occurs to me that looping would be particularly suited to internet > >> jamming, as latency could be accommodated by using longish loop times, and > >> by only adding contributions to the loop at the start of the next loop. All > >> we need now is a TCP/IP-aware Jamman upgrade !!! ;) > >> > >> >Some people of been exploring the musical possibilities of HUGE > >> >latencies through internet jams. Last month some folks in NYC jammed > >> >with some other folks in Japan where latencies where up around 10 > >> >seconds, at least! It's a feature, not a bug... > >> > ________________________________________________________ > Kim Flint 408-752-9284 > Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com > Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:54:25 -0600 From: Tom Spaulding < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-Id: <<98Jan23.165149cst.26888@gateway.gibson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think we may still have a clue! ;) Tom At 03:59 PM 1/23/98 -0600, you wrote: >We were working on this idea at g-wiz several years ago. It's an interesting >concept, with some unique challenges and possibilities. Unfortunately, most >of the people working on it got fired right about the time they were about >to produce some initial demos, so nothing came of it. Gibson never had a >clue what they lost when they did that. too bad.... > >kim > >At 04:35 PM 1/23/98 -0500, Jeff Duke wrote: >>I have been pondering how this could be accomplished myself.I have heard about >>jamming with midi over the internet but audio?hmmm,maybe bandwith is god(small >>g) >>Jeff Duke sr. >>Darcy Clark wrote: >> >>> It occurs to me that looping would be particularly suited to internet >>> jamming, as latency could be accommodated by using longish loop times, and >>> by only adding contributions to the loop at the start of the next loop. All >>> we need now is a TCP/IP-aware Jamman upgrade !!! ;) >>> >>> >Some people of been exploring the musical possibilities of HUGE >>> >latencies through internet jams. Last month some folks in NYC jammed >>> >with some other folks in Japan where latencies where up around 10 >>> >seconds, at least! It's a feature, not a bug... >>> >________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint 408-752-9284 >Mpact System Engineering kflint@chromatic.com >Chromatic Research http://www.chromatic.com > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 06:09:30 -0500 From: Jeff Duke < To: andre@monmouth.com CC: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: some torn rec. CDs Message-ID: <<34C9CBEA.7D1E2F03@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've got to check out that AZA.Living Colour were a fantastic band,and bernie worrell,wow.Anybody else like or heard of Praxis?It,s a Bill Laswell creation with various lineups including worrel,bootsy collins, john zorn,buckethead,brain and tons of others. Jeff andre wrote: > dave t also has TRIPPING OVER GOD and WHAT MEANS SOLID, TRAVELLER.. on the > defunct CMP - tho i got one store to order it for me.... get them fast !!!! > > also on some Mark Isham discs - very cool jazz/ambient trumpet player.... > he's on CLOUD, of course > > a killer one to get is the Mick Karn CDs TOOTH MOTHER & BESTIAL CLUSTER > > DT is on both and they rule. Mick rules. what the hell is he doing right > now?? > > also - i forget the title, BEST LAID PLANS (??) i think it's on ECM so you > can actually get it! -it's a DT duo album with a percussionist - cool, > loopy, ambient stuff, his rig was a merely mortal at that point, it seems. > > DT should join AZA for a tour/CD - AZA is will calhoun (does tons of > looping with a jamman and a korg wavedrum) and doug wimbush (bassist with a > rig from hell, with several looping devices on the floor and in - rack) - > these guys were the living colour rhythm section , they now have this > group, with bernie worrell and a floating sax player. > > andre@monmouth.com > > ---------- > > From: Stew Benedict < > > To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com > > Subject: Re: some torn live stuff > > Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 6:44 AM > > > > > > I've been meaning to mention I've recently been enjoying "Polytown", > > thanks to a lead from this group. David, if you're listening, this is > > awesome stuff! Does anyone have any leads on other Torn titles? I find > > "Cloud About Mercury" everywhere, been scouring closeouts and used shops > > and found "Door X" once, but someone swiped the CD from the jewel case. > > The combo of Torn, Karn, and Bozzio on "Polytown" is absolutely amazing. > > > > Stew Benedict > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:57:50 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-Id: <<3.0.1.16.19980124125750.1db70fec@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could latency be overcome in part by having everything run to some kind of Sync track, the way JamMan handles phrased loops; ultimately everyone would be out of sync but by exactly 1/2/4 bars or whatever. If the latency is exactly the size of a repeated unit (a loop, 4 bars, whatever) the musicians will sound in time, though may not _be_ in time. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:06:53 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-Id: <<3.0.1.16.19980124130653.1f07ce7a@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>sorry guys I >>had a magazine article somewhere---I just looked for it ---that had a midi >>internet jam with many people. >hmm. I think this was first done longer than a year ago, actually. I recall >a san francisco based technology/performance artist doing something like >this, with multiple musicians in different locations, playing over the net. >Seems like it was at least two years ago, but I'm not real sure. I'm pretty sure I've seen the software for live MIDI internet jamming for free internet download. Try www.resrocket.com and see what you think. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 07:01:25 -0500 From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-Id: <<199801241201.AA24772@world.std.com> >Could latency be overcome in part by having everything run to some kind of >Sync track, the way JamMan handles phrased loops; ultimately everyone would >be out of sync but by exactly 1/2/4 bars or whatever. If the latency is >exactly the size of a repeated unit (a loop, 4 bars, whatever) the >musicians will sound in time, though may not _be_ in >time. This is pretty much how I picture it could work. Basically, everybody has a little software synthesizer playing a bunch of loops, one per musician. You update your loop, and it gets transmitted to all the other musicians. (Ok, before you technical folk jump on me, for network bandwidth reasons, if there's more than two of you, that synthesizer might actually be a remote host--that is, do it client/server where I've just described peer-to-peer.) They hear the loop change properly, but delayed from when you made the change. Of course, it's not just "delayed"; because they make a change, and you hear THAT change delayed, and a third party hears both your changes at the _same_ time... Here, let me give you an almost concrete description: You only change your loop a few times, and we'll name each varation "a" or "b" etc, so you play a a a b b c c c d d and meanwhile we'll call his variations "1" or "2" etc... 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 But you don't hear the other guy's change for one loop, you would hear: a a1 a1 b2 b2 c3 c3 c4 d4 d5 5 and he would hear 1 a1 a2 a2 b3 b3 c4 c4 c5 d5 d So if these were each a full loop long, and the changes were gradual, the differences would probably not interfere too much with your ability to cooperate. The question is, what version is the "definitive" take? Everyone hears things differently, and _nobody_ hears the obvious "simultaneous" version a1 a1 a2 b2 b3 c3 c4 c4 d5 d5. Sean Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 07:28:39 -0500 From: Jeff Duke < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-ID: <<34C9DE77.240ED1DC@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on the definitive take,if everyone recorded the loop from start to finish then made a cd of all the different takes they would all sound the same,would'nt they?It would only be different at the time it was listened to and jammed with....oh well too early,i need more java(coffee that is)jeff Sean T Barrett wrote: > >Could latency be overcome in part by having everything run to some kind of > >Sync track, the way JamMan handles phrased loops; ultimately everyone would > >be out of sync but by exactly 1/2/4 bars or whatever. If the latency is > >exactly the size of a repeated unit (a loop, 4 bars, whatever) the > >musicians will sound in time, though may not _be_ in > >time. > > This is pretty much how I picture it could work. Basically, > everybody has a little software synthesizer playing a bunch > of loops, one per musician. You update your loop, and it > gets transmitted to all the other musicians. (Ok, before you > technical folk jump on me, for network bandwidth reasons, if > there's more than two of you, that synthesizer might actually > be a remote host--that is, do it client/server where I've just > described peer-to-peer.) > > They hear the loop change properly, but delayed from when > you made the change. Of course, it's not just "delayed"; > because they make a change, and you hear THAT change > delayed, and a third party hears both your changes at the > _same_ time... > > Here, let me give you an almost concrete description: > > You only change your loop a few times, and we'll name > each varation "a" or "b" etc, so you play > a a a b b c c c d d > and meanwhile we'll call his variations "1" or "2" etc... > 1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 > > But you don't hear the other guy's change for one loop, > you would hear: > > a a1 a1 b2 b2 c3 c3 c4 d4 d5 5 > > and he would hear > > 1 a1 a2 a2 b3 b3 c4 c4 c5 d5 d > > So if these were each a full loop long, and the changes > were gradual, the differences would probably not interfere > too much with your ability to cooperate. The question is, > what version is the "definitive" take? Everyone hears > things differently, and _nobody_ hears the obvious > "simultaneous" version a1 a1 a2 b2 b3 c3 c4 c4 d5 d5. > > Sean Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:26:39 From: "Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D." < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-Id: <<3.0.1.16.19980124142639.3f67163e@rank-serv.elec.gla.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:28 AM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >on the definitive take,if everyone recorded the loop from start to finish then >made a cd of all the different takes they would all sound the same,would'nt >they?It would only be different at the time it was listened to and jammed >with....oh well too early,i need more java(coffee that is)jeff Hmmm. Let's consider 2 musicians, A and B. They are playing over a 10 second loop. We'll call musician A's first loop A1. second A2 etc. Now if both musicians are playing over the same 10-sec toop (or drum pattern or whatever), the structure would go something like this: A plays A1 ten seconds later B starts playing B1 in sync over A's A1 A is simultaneously playing A2 over A1 ten seconds later A is now playing A3 over A1+A2+B1. B is playing B2 over A1+A2 etc. This could be extended to C, D etc. Everyone would hear a different version; A would hear A1 A2 A3+B1 A4+B2 etc B gets A1+B1 A2+B2 etc In a 3-way jam: A: A1 A2 A3+B1 A4+B2+C1 etc B: A1+B1 A2+B2+C1 A3+B3+C2 etc C: A1+B1+C1 A2+B2+C2 A3+B3+C3 etc In order to prevent anyone leading, A could be the click/drum track. Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:52:32 -0500 From: innerspace@mediaone.net To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully...LETS TRY ! Message-ID: <<34CA1C50.AAA73CE8@mediaone.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B5BB0F8FFD99D8BA5789CB63"   Sean T Barrett wrote: left >Could latency be overcome in part by having everything run to some kind of >Sync track, the way JamMan handles phrased loops; ultimately everyone would >be out of sync but by exactly 1/2/4 bars or whatever. If the latency is >exactly the size of a repeated unit (a loop, 4 bars, whatever) the >musicians will sound in time, though may not _be_ in >time. This is pretty much how I picture it could work.  Basically, everybody has a little software synthesizer playing a bunch of loops, one per musician.  You update your loop, and it gets transmitted to all the other musicians.  (Ok, before you technical folk jump on me, for network bandwidth reasons, if there's more than two of you, that synthesizer might actually be a remote host--that is, do it client/server where I've just described peer-to-peer.) They hear the loop change properly, but delayed from when you made the change.  Of course, it's not just "delayed"; because they make a change, and you hear THAT change delayed, and a third party hears both your changes at the _same_ time... Here, let me give you an almost concrete description: You only change your loop a few times, and we'll name each varation "a" or "b" etc, so you play  a a a b b c c c d d and meanwhile we'll call his variations "1" or "2" etc...  1 1 2 2 3 3 4 4 5 5 But you don't hear the other guy's change for one loop, you would hear:   a a1 a1 b2 b2 c3 c3 c4 d4 d5 5 and he would hear   1 a1 a2 a2 b3 b3 c4 c4 c5 d5 d So if these were each a full loop long, and the changes were gradual, the differences would probably not interfere too much with your ability to cooperate.  The question is, what version is the "definitive" take?  Everyone hears things differently, and _nobody_ hears the obvious "simultaneous" version a1 a1 a2 b2 b3 c3 c4 c4 d5 d5. Sean Barrett   Great...   Just when I thought I'd figured out how to play an instrument along with four or five other guys successfully you'all turn around and make intercontinental jamspace a reality....  back to school...     Interesting point about what would be the definitive jam.... who would hear what, etc....  I wonder how one would go about transposing this information.... Would all players be restricted to certain keys  or is dissonance kinda the point...  I understand there are a lot of us all around the globe w/ different interpretations of this idea (and you all seem to know what you're talking about, which in my case isn't entirely true...), but how would you tackle the simple problems posed by Western and Eastern scales, frequencies theat don't mix etc....   Time latencies that cause changes in the structure of the jam.... IE:Some guy in holland playing cello loops in 7/11 while a young woman in Kyoto is going crazy in one of those traditional tunings that was posted the other day ( except shes not even in a time signature at all...) and ( all along) Some musical genius in Topeka is playing several instruments (by himself) (because he can!:)) all in different time signna/...... I figure ya get the picture.....   I am not seeing how this would work in all cases.... there would be a luck factor.... yes/no? bye bbye ..................................................................................................................................:) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:55:13 -0500 From: Jeff Duke < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Torn and Door X -- an apology Message-ID: <<34CA3911.38E78D9C@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I emailed Jeff Suit at DT's site and he sent me this url for his new and improved ra's.they sound great but they are for a 56k modem so it was a little choppy for me at 33.6they played though and do sound good.Heres the url; http://web.engin.umich.edu/torn/real/ Jeff Caleb Deupree wrote: > Based on the positive reactions which Door X got earlier today on this > list, I dug up my old copy and listened to it again, and it was *much* > better than I remembered (although I still prefer his more experimental > work). Thanks for the admonishments which got me to listen to it again. I > also noticed a couple of listings for it at www.gemm.com, a clearinghouse > for various new and used CD dealers. They also had the oop CMP albums, at > ridiculously high prices. > > There is a web site on Torn at http://ott-outreach.engin.umich.edu/torn/, > although it doesn't appear to have been updated lately. > > -- > Caleb Deupree > cdeupree@interagp.com > cdeupree@erinet.com > > Computers are useless; they can only give you answers > -- Pablo Picasso ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:19:11 -0500 From: Jeff Duke < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: looping over the Internet - one day hopefully ! Message-ID: <<34CA3EAF.B3E28C3F@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mry Bro',RR sent me this as recorded at one point on the globe with everyone starting at once to a midi click on a prearranged tune; Well, look at it from a subjective listeners point of "view". If everyone started playing at 12:00pm GMT you would have(loop by loop) : A1 B1 C1 then A1B1C1+A2 A1B1C1+B2 A1B1C1+C2 then A2B2C2+A3 A2B2C2+B3 A2B2C2+C3 and so on.... Randy Michael P. Hughes, Ph.D. wrote: > At 07:28 AM 1/24/98 -0500, you wrote: > >on the definitive take,if everyone recorded the loop from start to finish > then > >made a cd of all the different takes they would all sound the same,would'nt > >they?It would only be different at the time it was listened to and jammed > >with....oh well too early,i need more java(coffee that is)jeff > > Hmmm. Let's consider 2 musicians, A and B. They are playing over a 10 > second loop. We'll call musician A's first loop A1. second A2 etc. Now if > both musicians are playing over the same 10-sec toop (or drum pattern or > whatever), the structure would go something like this: > > A plays A1 > ten seconds later > B starts playing B1 in sync over A's A1 > A is simultaneously playing A2 over A1 > ten seconds later > A is now playing A3 over A1+A2+B1. > B is playing B2 over A1+A2 > > etc. > > This could be extended to C, D etc. Everyone would hear a different > version; A would hear > > A1 A2 A3+B1 A4+B2 etc > B gets > A1+B1 A2+B2 etc > > In a 3-way jam: > A: A1 A2 A3+B1 A4+B2+C1 etc > B: A1+B1 A2+B2+C1 A3+B3+C2 etc > C: A1+B1+C1 A2+B2+C2 A3+B3+C3 etc > > In order to prevent anyone leading, A could be the click/drum track. > > Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:59:21 -0800 From: Kim Flint < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: praxis (ws some torn rec. CDs) Message-Id: < Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I've got to check out that AZA.Living Colour were a fantastic band,and bernie >worrell,wow.Anybody else like or heard of Praxis?It,s a Bill Laswell creation >with various lineups including worrel,bootsy collins, john >zorn,buckethead,brain and tons of others. >Jeff oh yeah, I have all the praxis albums. A lovely schizophrenic feel, with some incredible music in there. Lot of great surprises. And Brain just blows me a way. Definitely one of the most talented and funky drummers on the planet. I've enjoyed listening to him since the old Limbomaniacs days. And of course buckethead, who has the distinction of being the only guitar player I'm still interested in listening to. You really have to see him live to grasp just how brilliant he can be and how absurdly funny. He's standing up there playing with inhuman technique and mocking it all at the same time. And with that expressionless mask, you just can't tell if he means the brilliant ironies or if he's just a complete idiot, which I think is part of the point and makes it that much more fun. I've actually seen buckethead loop before, so it's not completely off topic I guess..... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:19:27 EST From: Fmplautus < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: praxis ...and Buckethead and Laswell rules Message-ID: <<4cccaa85.34ca9321@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit KiM: The LoOpDoctOrs must endorse your Buckethead fandom. We LOVE this guy. We love his albums, which cut against metal/thrash expectation and always prove to be funkier, funnier and tastier then any meal at the Colonol's. Best, the LoOpDoctOrs ps: we sent in the tape ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:19:33 EST From: PJBMHB < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: buckethead Message-ID: <<73134ce0.34ca9327@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit mr. buckethead is a strange one. i like his stuff but know that whenever i put his stuff on the cd player i will not be able to find my 2 ferrets. they will be hiding. as will my wife. i am the only buckethead fan in my house. =-0 PJ --------------------------------