------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Re: www-cycling74 wow.:) [ Kim Flint ] RE:Time for digitech machine page [ Kim Flint ] Re: ANYONE KNOW THE MIDI PEDAL SCHEM [ Kim Flint ] Re: RE:Time for digitech machine pag [ CORROSIVE@aol.com ] Re: RE:Time for digitech machine ------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 19 Today's Topics: Re: www-cycling74 wow.:) [ Kim Flint < ] RE:Time for digitech machine page [ Kim Flint < ] Re: ANYONE KNOW THE MIDI PEDAL SCHEM [ Kim Flint < ] Re: RE:Time for digitech machine pag [ CORROSIVE@aol.com ] Re: RE:Time for digitech machine pag [ CORROSIVE@aol.com ] PMC-10 again [ Sean Echevarria < ] Re: ANYONE KNOW THE MIDI PEDAL SCHEM [ buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barre ] Re: David Torn loop CDs [ Ken Mistove < ] Re: praxis (ws some torn rec. CDs) [ TritoneDW < ] Re: PMC-10 again [ patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:52:18 -0800 From: Kim Flint < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: www-cycling74 wow.:) Message-Id: < Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:48 AM -0400 1/22/98, Curtis Bahn wrote: >>kim flint wrote >>One thing kind of troubling about the computer based systems for real-time >>use is the latency problems. (meaning the time it would take for audio to >>be sent in and sent back out again.) On the MSP site some typical latencies >>are actually listed as: >> >>Audio input to audio output latency on a 9600/300: >> Using the Digidesign Audiomedia III: 46ms >> Using the Sound Manager: 294ms >> >>that's definitely in the range where you would notice it in some >>situations, especially with looping and trying to maintain precise grooves. >>And this is on a very fast (and expensive) system! I know that PC's suffer >>from the same problem. The audio has to go through a lot of operating >>system to get to where it's useable, and a lot more operating system to get >>out again. >> >>So those of you using systems like these for real-time audio I/O, how do >>you deal with that? Are you able to operate it with any timing precision >>for real-time audio events? And I don't mean hard disk recording where the >>system has opportunities to compensate for the latency. I mean audio really >>going in and out, like you might have on a typical stand alone audio >>processor. Anyone? >> > >Latency can be a real problem sometimes. Especially on a powerbook, the >technology is not really there yet to have an inexpensive self-contained >system that can deal with all the audio processing and performance I/O in >real-time without some significant lag. >In some cases, like making rich ambient textures, the latency just desn't >matter and it is a reasonable price to pay to be in control of more aspects >of what your signal processing device is doing. We're certainly in a >transition period between hardware and software based models for our toys. >It's pretty exciting. Especially in performance areas like looping (which >isn't that "expensive" in terms of computer processing and won't incur as >much latency as more complicated signal processing) this technology is I basically agree with you about things moving towards a more software oriented environment. Whether it will all be running on general, yet focused musical/audio devices or on general purpose computers seems rather questionable for quite a while, if ever. You say that something like Looping doesn't require a lot of processing power, and having developed them, I'd say that's not really correct. It mostly doesn't take a lot of signal processing power, that's true, but it does take a lot of processing power to maintain the real time control. At it's core, Looping is not so much about dsp and signal processing as it is about control over data and functional execution. It requires a true real-time operating system to ensure that any possible event requested by the user can be executed at any point in time, within a guaranteed amount of time. Such an OS expends a huge amount of processing cycles making sure that this is possible. Devices like the echoplex, jamman, and boomerang use all of their processing power to make sure that when you tell it to do something, it gets done within a very short amount of time. On the Echoplex, for example, this maximum latency is only 1.5ms. Windows and the MacOS are not real-time operating systems. They are genearalized to do a lot of different types of tasks. They have some real-time services available, but not much. And those are not as good as something designed specifically for that. That might change some, but not much in the near future. Most of the services that get added have to do with real-time signal processing, and not with real time control. The only way they can approach real-time performance is by massively increasing the processing speed, and then you pay for a lot of extra power. And as that power becomes available, the general purpose operating systems always find new ways to fill it up. Your only hope is when you can add on a peripheral that runs it's own real-time os in conjunction with the main system. (which is what Chromatic does with Mpact media processors, and presumably what digidesign does with their system.) So this problem isn't likely to go away soon on basic desktop machines. The hardware based loopers do a lot more than just put a sound in memory and repeat it. What makes them special are all the other functions and features that let the user interact with it like a musical instrument. These are the sort of features that will be very difficult or impossible to create on general purpose machines available now or for the near future. And then there's the longer view of where PC's are going, which may offer more possibilities. A lot of people in the PC and consumer electronics industries are pushing these areas to merge together. So PC's begin to appear that are more specifically focused on single tasks, and consumer electronics devices begin to appear with more PC-like features. You can see this happening now with set-top boxes, PDA's, and home theater equipment. You will soon see the same with stereo equipment, TV's, telephones, dishwashers, and whatever. It's not unreasonable to think the same will happen with musical instruments. I tend to think that in 10-15 years, the idea of using a desktop computer designed for office use for the purposes of creating music will seem as quaint and old-fashioned as the huge patch cord based analog synths of the 60's and 70's seem today. Time will tell I guess. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:28:01 -0800 From: Kim Flint < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: RE:Time for digitech machine page Message-Id: < Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:51 PM -0500 1/20/98, Tom Lambrecht wrote: >Kim: > >I'm, assuming that if some misguided soul who didn' get enuf attention as a >child was intrigued by the thankless prospect of compiling various boring >technical minutiae regarding an inanimate object that has been out of >production for years into a FAQ that less than a handful of people will ever >see (and when they do, will curse their search engine) . . . . > >that you would turn the text file into a finished Loopers Web page complete >with head counter, flashing messages and the previously mentioned super >models fiddling with the KNOBS (AAAOOOOOOOHHHHH . . . KNOBS) on a vintage >RDS 8000 with Real-Time Audio and Puddling Video and Java and . . . . > >Ahem . . well if that is the case, (and if and only the rest of the Deviate >League of Time Machinists contribute to the project), I'd have a go . . . ok, you're on. Although, don't expect me to be doing all that java and video stuff. I don't have time to do it or even learn how! The most I ever figured out was how to make something into a basic web page, and for that I just use the free html composer that comes with netscape. I'd encourage you to go ahead and do that much, because it's easy and if you wait for me to do it, it'll take forever. Or partner up with another time-machine fanatic to help you out. but hey, thanks for offering to pitch in! I'll ask one of my numerous supermodel friends to pay you a visit. kim > assumed responsibility for collecting and compilingAt 11:03 AM 1/20/98 >-0500, you wrote: >> >> >>Kim Flint wrote: >> >>> At 3:22 PM -0800 1/19/98, Stephen P. Goodman wrote: >>> >KRosser414 < asked: >>> >>appears to be capable of some great stuff, but I need a manual. Anyone >>> >>have one? I'd gladly pay for a xerox & postage... >>> > >>> > >>> >I've got their number at home, which I called when I got MINE - and >>>got the >>> >manual FREE. >>> >>> hey, if someone wants to scan the manual, I'd be happy to put it on the >>> website. >>> >>> Also, lots of great info has been posted about this box. It would be great >>> if someone could complile it all into a FAQ for the Time Machine page. That >>> poor lonely page sure could use someone to take care of it! >>> >>> Just think of the fame and self promotion it would gain you... Looper's >>> Delight gets over 3000 hits a week. All those people looking at YOUR >>> handywork....imagine: the job offers come streaming in....overflowing bank >>> accounts....new home studio toys....parties with rock stars and super >>> models....it could all be yours, just for one measly web page..... >>> >>> kim >>> >>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>> Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >>> kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html >>> http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com >> >> >>Kim... I love the Digitech Time Machine...... >> I love Music made with the digitech time machine.... >> I love the loopers delight web page.... >> >> I'm just not smart enough to post my own web page.... >> >> Sorry....:( >> I had to be good at something and it wasn't computers >> >> >> >> >Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:36:27 -0800 From: Kim Flint < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: ANYONE KNOW THE MIDI PEDAL SCHEME FOR THE ECHOPLEX? Message-Id: < Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:10 AM -0500 1/21/98, ENAT21213 wrote: >Thanks for the quick reply Kim. > The echoplex sounds way more complex than my jamman.Im thinking of >investing in one?The only problem I have is this midi controller/echoplex >pedalboard access loop 1 thru 9 tap thing. > What I do is midi merge two ada mc1 midi pedal controllers together .This >gives me access to all 19 of jammans loop functions without having to bank up >and down.The ada mc1 has 10 buttons on the face of one pedalboard.So with the >press of a button I can get around with ease (essential for me,especially >live).I would love it if the echoplex would react in a similar way. The Echoplex (the technology we at Aurisis develop that runs the echoplex is called Loop, btw) can react that way, but I suspect that your current pedals either won't do it or won't do it in a satisfactory way. You might want to consider upgrading to a more capable pedal, or get the pedal designed for the echoplex. Again, I'm not familiar with the ADA pedal, but I believe it is a very simple one. You can't expect it to do everything.... >I realize >the echoplex does not accept midi program changes messages.You mentioned that >this feature will be added in a future echoplex.Any idea when this version >will be avalible? What I meant is we may add program change support to Loop for the purposes of changing programs, which is the purpose of that midi command. So you would be able to change from one setup to another by sending a program change command, in the same way you change patches on a multi-effect or a synth with program change messages. Using program change messages for executing functions on the echoplex is problematic, for one thing because it would interfere with us using it for the intended purpose defined in the midi standard of changing programs. Another reason is that a midi program change message simply contains less information than note and continuous control messages. We use all of the information in the later types to make the midi interface more elegant and musically intuitive, while allowing you to control more things with fewer buttons. Changing the interface to work with program change messages makes it less intuitive and harder to use, and some functions won't be available at all. And that's opposed to our general design philosophy for Loop. All of our efforts are focused on designing an interface that is musically useful and intuitive. We wouldn't want to release something that gives anyone a lesser experience with Loop. We'll continue to investigate this possibility, but I'm not very positive about it. Being compatible with every ancient midi pedal is not a task I relish! As far as when any future versions of Loop might be available, we don't discuss that. Since we just released a major version a few months ago, you might imagine that it won't be very soon, but we are always working on new developments. >Sounds like the midi note or continuous controller message for changing >loops in echoplex may work for me?Not shure though,is anyone out there using a >similar set up to mine with the echoplex?If so mabey you can let me know how >this midi note/continouous controler thing works with your midi pedal.I really >need to be able to jump from one function to the next with minimal tapping. I have a digitech PMC-10 pedal set up to do this, and it works very well. I got the pedal for $100. > Any Oberheim dealers in my area?I live in Myrtle Beach S.C. ,anywhere in >S.C.,N.C. or GA. would work.I would love to try one out.I'd probably order one >right now if I knew I could access most functions(especially loops 1 thru 9) >with the press of one button. You have to ask Oberheim about that..... kim >Thanks for your help and patience, >Brian McKenzie > > >In a message dated 98-01-20 06:39:06 EST, you write: > ><<<< And last is switching with midi. Unlike the JamMan, the echoplex is more > like a sampler in this respect. It uses Midi Notes or Continuous Controller > messages for changing loops. If you have the velocity parameter turned on, > the Echoplex will use the velocity info in the note on message (or the > value of the controller) to set the volume of the loop you switch to. You > jump directly to the loop you want by pressing it's associated > Note/controller number. (you can set which notes/controllers it uses for > the loops.) >> ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:35:59 -0500 (EST) From: CORROSIVE@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE:Time for digitech machine page Message-ID: <<980124233558_1783960427@mrin39.mx> Although I am just the owner of a lowly PDS-8000, I'd love to hear more feedback (ouch), tips & stuff regarding time machines... i personally feel lo-res looping is equally as kool as hi-res!! I would love it if the Plex pro had a switch (or mod) so you could do 4 bit sampling (ala electro-harmonix super replay), cause the lo-res grain makes it sound like your loops were shot into space & bounced off Pluto before behind detuned & returned to your pitched down psyche... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:48:30 -0500 (EST) From: CORROSIVE@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: RE:Time for digitech machine page Message-ID: <<980124234829_-265053875@mrin54> oh yeah... if you want, I'd be glad to provide pictures of my really cute girlfriend twiddling PDS-8000 knobs... or tweaking pretty much any Electro Harmonix effect ( except the attack decay- still fishin for 1 of them) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:21:54 -0800 From: Sean Echevarria < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: PMC-10 again Message-Id: <<3.0.3.32.19980124212154.00ab3730@global.california.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" PMC-10 owners, I've got an opportunity to pick up a PMC-10 with power supply BUT no remote programmer. Is the hand-held device the only way to program it? Probably no manual either. Can it be programmed via sysex? I saw a programmer for a Digitech DSP256 - anyone ever try plugging it into the PMC-10? Thanks for any advice, Sean ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:02:57 -0500 From: Jeff Duke < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: David Torn loop CDs Message-ID: <<34CB3801.4C45A141@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------71720664067AF5112E4CAA6D" Michael, could you give the url for q-up arts?I was'nt able to locate it with a cursery search. thanks,Jeff
 
Michael Peters wrote: left okay, talking about DoorX and Torn's other CDs - maybe not everyone on the list is aware of Torn's awesome loop CDs 'Tonal Textures' and 'Pandora's Toolbox'. The Tonal Textures cover says: >Unusual sonic landscapes and unique >atmospheres for use as musical >backgrounds in multi-media, >film scoring, composition, >and music production. About Pandora's Toolbox, Torn wrote, >'pandora' is a bit different: >much more material than t.t., >so it had to be set-up a little more >efficiently for sampling-peoples. The problem with these 2 CDs is that they're not regular audio CDs (although they can be played on regular CD players) but supposed to be sample CDs - they are available from Q-Up Arts (check their website) for a *very* high price which kept me from buying Pandora's Toolbox, but I spent the money for Tonal Textures because Torn played it before his 'Slipping over God' solo concert and I immediately fell in love with it. Very beautiful, you'll sure like it if you are into, say, Enoesque atmospheres. Definitely recommended stuff. ___________ Michael Peters         <http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want"         <http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm   ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:57:26 -0500 From: buzzard@world.std.com (Sean T Barrett) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: ANYONE KNOW THE MIDI PEDAL SCHEME FOR THE ECHOPLEX? Message-Id: <<199801251257.AA18909@world.std.com> >Using program change messages for executing functions on the echoplex is >problematic, for one thing because it would interfere with us using it for >the intended purpose defined in the midi standard of changing programs. Why not just have a simple global toggle: current behavior and use-program-change-messages for general control I can't see it being that much software work to provide both (the usual reason why it's not worth supporting multiple interfaces). >Changing the interface to work with program change messages makes >it less intuitive and harder to use, and some functions won't be available >at all. And that's opposed to our general design philosophy for Loop. All >of our efforts are focused on designing an interface that is musically >useful and intuitive. We wouldn't want to release something that gives >anyone a lesser experience with Loop. But, the marketplace reality is that plenty of people seem to have pedals that don't produce the needed messages. If those people _don't_ buy a compatible footpedal, that is, if they buy it out of the box, for the price you're (ok, Oberheim) selling it, they're left with no footpedal interface at all. Is this really "more musically useful and intuitive"? I don't know _what_ it is you communicate with the "missing data", but how can it be worse than what's on the front of the rack face? If "note-on" is used to select a loop, and you make some use of the velocity as well (to determine the volume of the loop?), how does a user using the rackface or the _official_ pedalboard ever get this effect? I guess you're missing the "note-off"s, which would make a difference where your interface has special meanings for "press and hold this button, then press this other button", but eventually you remap those to some unique "operation"--just provide one program change for each operation, and let people program the ones they use into their footpedal however they want. I understand and wholeheartedly support coherent, intuitive user-interface designs. And I _totally_ agree philosophically with the problems with using program-control messages for non-program-y events. Abusing a standard (e.g. MIDI) can undermine the success of such a standard. But MIDI _is_ already solidly grounded, and there's (apparently) lots of people with such pedals, who are currently surviving on an coherent, relatively intuitive design (actually it sounds a bit overconstrained by the limited number of buttons--a little too modal) which they can only access with their hands--which in the end rather makes it not-very-easy-to-use. To reiterate--people are already using it in a horribly clumsy manner, if they've got the wrong kind of MIDI pedalboard. Is it really an outrage to provide a special mode and a hundred lines of code to make it more useable? Sean Barrett don't look at me, I don't even own an EDP ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:54:30 -0500 From: Ken Mistove < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: David Torn loop CDs Message-Id: < Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Point you browser at: http://quparts.com/ David's two discs are listed at: http://quparts.com/ambient.htm >could you give the url for q-up arts?I was'nt able to locate it with a >cursery search. Ken Ken Mistove kmistove@eclipse.net new stuff: http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/ old stuff: http://www.eclipse.net/~kmistove/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:16:11 EST From: TritoneDW < To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: praxis (ws some torn rec. CDs) Message-ID: <<1fe46a04.34cb735d@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Another plug for Buckethead (and the whole Laswell contingent). Just great guitar playing. The Laswell projects can be pretty hit and miss, but there's always something good in there somewhere. Buckethead did an ambient album under the name Death Cube K (it's an anagram for Buckethead--cute huh?) a few years ago. I'm not sure if it's loop based--haven't heard it since I picked up my JamPig. Anyway, it was also produced by Laswell. It's filled with dark textures and such. Some of you may want to check it out. Buckethead fans beware, though--I don't think there's a single solo on the whole disc. Drew Wheeler ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:09:14 +0200 From: patrick@his.com (Patrick Smith) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: PMC-10 again Message-Id: < Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >PMC-10 owners, > >I've got an opportunity to pick up a PMC-10 with power supply BUT no remote >programmer. Is the hand-held device the only way to program it? Probably >no manual either. Can it be programmed via sysex? I saw a programmer for >a Digitech DSP256 - anyone ever try plugging it into the PMC-10? > >Thanks for any advice, >Sean Sean, It appears to be the only way I've found to program it. I can photocopy you the manual if and when you need it. Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** --------------------------------