------------------------------ Loopers-Delight-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 8 Today's Topics: Re: CD recorders...MD too?? [ "Scot Gresham-Lancaster" ] time machine/ gig with ElliottSharp, [ Andre Cholmodeley ] Re: MicroSynth [ Tom Lambrecht ] Looping with sequencers.. [ Andre Cholmodeley ] RE: Email Avalanch/routing [ Michael Peters ] Re: Re: MicroSynth [ CORROSIVE@aol.com ] Hello... [ Goddess ] Administrivia: Looper's Delight **************** Please send posts to: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Don't send them to the digest! To subscribe/unsubscribe to the Loopers-Delight digest version, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-d-request@annihilist.com To subscribe/unsubscribe to the real Loopers-Delight list, send email with "subscribe" (or "unsubscribe") in both the subject and the body, with no signature files, to: Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Check the web page for archives and lots of other goodies! http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html Your humble list maintainer, Kim Flint kflint@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:38:09 -0800 From: "Scot Gresham-Lancaster" To: Subject: Re: CD recorders...MD too?? Message-Id: <001001bd21fd$df400840$b62e9a86@electromusic.csuhayward.edu> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Of interest to loopers within the context of this thread might be the DenonDN-M2000R which is a minidisc recorder with five cue points per track, hot start, and the same A-B seamless loop playback circutry and front end that is in the DF2500 dual cd playback system. I have been using the equivalent circut in the DMX-1000 "DJ" style mixer just because it has a bunch of real time looping features that I can't get with either my Boomarang, echoplex, or jamman. The interface design is very straight forward and lends itself to interactions that are not simply of the style that the designers intended. This comment worth exactly $.02. Scot Gresham-Lancaster email: scot@csuhayward.edu ph: 510-885-3150 fax: 510-885-3146 www: tesla.csuhayward.edu/~scot = meat tesla.csuhayward.edu/~scot/sglbio.html = bio ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:12:17 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Lambrecht To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Fresh Vortex spoor (FS) Message-Id: <199801152312.SAA10282@newman.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Another Vortex (very fresh post from Harmony): $150 with original box, footswitch and manual mcgiggle@inconnect.com good luck . . . drone on~~~Tom Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:59:27 EST From: CORROSIVE To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re: Re: MicroSynth Message-ID: <492f1f61.34bf0551@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dave- I'm VERY interested in your impression of the big 3 rack space EH guitar synth, if you would be so kind- I'm a big collector of EH stuff (have been since '75 when I bought my first big muff mail order...) I have most of the usual suspects, but have never even seen the big gtr synth in real life & I'd really enjoy hearing your review. thanks!>>>greg horn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:45:19 -0500 From: Andre Cholmodeley To: Subject: time machine/ gig with ElliottSharp, Chris Haskett Message-Id: <199801152045.PAA00724@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yaaaayyy!! just scored a digitech Time Machine 800, 8 secs of looping and fun!!! and....(drum roll) only $169 !!!! eat your ROMs out!!! Used Stuff Doth Rule. and NY/NJ/DEL Loopers...I'll be using this new toy and others on superbowl sunday at the 'Noisebowl 98' - sun jan 25 8:00pm the court tavern new brunswick nj -JFK's LSD UFO - Elliot Sharp (solo TECTONICS w/mac computer) -Chris Haskett band (Rollins Band guitarist) i'm in the first duo, we use a ton of loopage, using digitech, korg, vortex, boss delays, as well as live sequence looping more info, links to all relevant sites are on the schedule at http://www.courttavern.com ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:46:55 -0800 From: Andre LaFosse To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Data compression, twitch factors, knee jerks and God Message-ID: <34BEADFF.711C@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fmplautus wrote: > Here's a question. A few years down the road could a musical aesthetic (read > movement) rise up around those darned hissy four track cassette tape decks > some are about to trash for the latest and the greatest? > We're standing by. This has already been going on for many years as part of the whole so-called "lo-fi" movement in alternative/independent rock, where the distinctive sonic signature of cassette multi-tracks is not only a prevelant characteristic, but a highly desirable one as well. This "lack" of sonic quality is a prized element of the whole aesthetic. It's also, in some cases, tied in to a philosophical reaction against conventional ideas of demo tape-vs.-"real album" fidelity, major label production standards, the reliance on having to have a certain amount of technology to make a "serious" statement, etc. Likewise, the tremendous rise of sample-CDs (compact discs filled with short snippets of beats and sounds, intended to be sampled in the studio and used for song production) over the last few years reflects a similar fixation with impure sound. A lot of what a person is buying on those CDs is a certain unclean, artifact-ridden quality (which, ironically, is often constructed for those CDs through elaborate and extensive in-studio doctoring) that's hard to get from a straight drum machine or synthesizer. In related areas, you can look at something like the Roland VS-880 hard disk recorder, which actually has an effect built into it called "Lo-Fi Processor." This is a multi-stage effect which operates upon the all-digital signal flow of the VS-880, which allows you to dial in lower sampling frequencies and bit rates, introduce digital distortion, and emphasize all manner of aliasings and frequencies. In short, you've got a cutting edge modern processor going to great pains to sound like a low-quality sampler from a decade ago. Some stand-alone effects processors offer similar functions, and I remember reading a review of one which actually had a "patch" that delivered a steady stream of sound emulating the crackling of a stylus on a worn piece of vinyl. It's been interesting to see the way that the playing field for what constitutes "commercially acceptable" sound has levelled out over the past decade, with the advent of both the hip-hop/electronic side of things as well as the "grunge" movement. At this point, a guy with one decent sampler, a good mixing board, and some kind of rudminentary sequencer can record music in his home studio that's on par with most of the records in the techno/ambient/electronic genre. The much-acclaimed DJ Shadow record from 1996, for instance, created from nothing but samples from vinyl records, was made using one turntable, an modest AKAI MPC-series drum machine/sampler unit, and one 8-track ADAT unit. There wasn't even a standalone sequencer or computer involved. Likewise, the advent of the post-Brendan O'Brian/Steve Albini/Butch Vig school of rock production means that a lot of guitar-oriented bands are more able to get a mainstream-approved sound for a lower amount of money, because the sort of sound that you hear on a Pearl Jam or Nirvana record simply doesn't require the same sort of big-budget studio polish that you'd need in order to make a circa-1987 Def Leppard or Whitesnake album. (I recall a quote from the producer of the first Counting Crows album, who told the band, "You've made a demo that sounds like an album. Now you need to make an album that sounds like a demo.") A lot of alternative rock acts who started out independant before signing with a major label wind up getting their original independent releases reissued by the majors, either straight or in remixed form, because the current standard for the sound of rock records is "lower" in the audiophile/_Stereo Review_ sort of sense than it was a decade ago. Of course, fetishism with imperfection gets taken to some bizarre and arguably obscene stages, as with the Fender Custom Shop line of "relic" guitars, an expensive (well over the $1,000 price point) line of new instruments which have been "aged" at the factory through the application of artificial rust, holes in the paint job, and other types of pseudo-wear and tear which provide the cosmetic illusion of a vintage instrument on a newly-manufactured item. The company boasts, "No two Relic guitars are aged in precisely the same way!" --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:51:40 -0500 From: "future perfect" To: Subject: Re: Re: Re: MicroSynth Message-ID: <05f201bd225b$f7204f20$60f1ffd0@default> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greg and the rest... The E-H Guitar Synthesizer that I owned was indeed 3 rack spaces, but since I got rid of it a few years ago, I'll try to remember the features.. -Input w/LED -2 tunable oscillators, each with resonance, tuning, fine tuning and volume controls..you could also 'sync' their tuning to each other, and switch between saw tooth and triangle waveforms -1 additional oscillator that was tuned an octave above the input signal. -chorus (no controls, just on or off) not bad sounding, a very subtle effect..i believe it was just for the direct signal... -fuzz (on or off)...this sounded quite square wave-y to me, but was cool with some outboard reverb...this was also for the direct guitar sound -VCA ..this was cool for volume envelop changes.... There were probably a few more little things, but I can't seem to remember this late at night. They originally went for about $1000, mine was bought from my guitar teacher in the mid 80's for about $400, The overall sound reminded me of a Minimoog through a distortion pedal, not clean enough to simulate a bass, and since it was monophonic, it did cool mistracking sounds quite well. I could also get a pretty good Belew-like elephantine scream out of it. The unit was black, with white lines and legends, and had direct and synth out. Hate to think what its worth today..if anyone needs more info or has questions, let me know. Dave Eichenberger ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:15:24 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Lambrecht To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: MicroSynth Message-Id: <199801160915.EAA02653@mcfeely.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Matthias: if you are going to try to make a killing on this, now is a good time to fix it. this is one of two units that EH has scheduled for reissue (which will probably adversely impact the used market price). Tom At 03:07 PM 1/15/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Matthias Grob said: > >> Someone gave me one that does not work. If its value is high, it might >> motivate me to fix it. >> >> How much is the offer for a perfectly working one? >> >> Matthias >> > > >I just gave a partially-working one to former listmember Russ Gorton (which >I bought new in 1981 for about $200). The street price in the US is as >much as $600 per--Bog knows why. Apart from some groovy envelope >filtering, it's basically a crappy octaver and crappy fuzz with a noisy >footswitch. > >Scott > > > > Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:56:58 -0500 From: Andre Cholmodeley To: Subject: Re: CD recorders...MD too?? Message-Id: <199801152056.PAA05684@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > A friend of mine got an MD player so that he could play the bootleg recordings > he got from Japan. Apparently using MD recorders for bootlegging is now > a common practice over there. > Cheers,> Paolo Valladolid yes, another awesome use. light , easy to use, great sound as a bootlegger. while i'm on the floor recording the following show sat. nite - i urge you all to hear/see it sat, jan 17 8:00pm NYC time (eastern) Elliott Sharp, Bobby Previte, John Zorn, Wayne Horvitz Live improv. should be real sick. http://www.knittingfactory.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 12:17:28 -0000 From: "T.W. Hartnett" To: "Looper's Delight" Subject: Re: Data compression, twitch factors, knee jerks and God Message-Id: <199801151817.KAA25716@scv1.apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >In short, we trust our ears and nobody's spec sheets. And we are HIGHLY >suspicious of faux scientific explanations as to why we should accept "less" >as "more." That includes marketing/compression schemes. Bang for the >buck is >one thing, but don't tell our ears they're related to jerky knees. The >"twitch factor" for marketing types with profit line incentives is much >higher >then the >"knee jerk" factor in musicians. Every form of recording technology has its limitations. "Sergeant Pepper" recorded on an MD still manages to get the point across. Hack engineers will yield poor results with unfamiliar technology, digital or analog, regardless. All compression, analog or digital, represents a loss of information. All professional recordings are compressed in several ways before the final product reaches the consumer. Despite this, music still finds its way into the world. Anything which is considered "state of the art" today will be viewed as hopelessly outdated within five years, including ADAT, the Echoplex, 24-bit sampling, etc. If you wait for the perfect technology to arrive, you'll never get anything done. Take what you can afford now, and make the most of it. Travis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:23:02 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Data compression, twitch factors, knee jerks and God Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Travis said: >All compression, analog or digital, represents a loss of information. >All professional recordings are compressed in several ways before the >final product reaches the consumer. Despite this, music still finds its >way into the world. I don't actually care very much about this particular debate, but this sounded a little confused. I suspect you're not actually confused, but anyway: The kind of compression appearing in all those professional recordings is dynamic compression, normally inflicted by a box called a compressor. Usually rather useful. This is totally different from the sort of compression talked about with MiniDisc technology. That is data compression, which is used to squeeze the digitally encoded data into a smaller space. Data compression comes in two basic flavors, lossless and "lossy." With the lossless type, as you would expect, you compress it into a smaller space, and then decompress it and you get exactly the same data you started with. You can only compress things so far this way. Lossy compression, which MD uses, takes advantage of deficiencies in human senses. With audio, your ears are not very good at hearing certain parts of a complex audio waveform. "Masking" for example, is a phenomenon where a dominant frequency will prevent you from hearing slightly higher frequencies. Lossy compression algorithms look for these situations and remove them from the audio, which allows the data to be compressed much smaller. The idea is that it is removing parts you can't hear anyway, to aid in the compression. When you decompress it, those parts are gone. You can take this to various extremes to achieve greater amounts of compression. As you achieve higher data compression ratios, the quality of the audio continues to degrade and becomes increasingly noticeable to the listener. I would imagine that MD is well below the point where most people would notice. On the other hand, anybody can hear the degradation in a RealAudio file encoded for a 28.8 modem rate. This sort of compression is also done in the very cheap samplers out from Boss and Yamaha. Whether you care about this, is of course up to you. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:40:41 -0500 From: Andre Cholmodeley To: Subject: Looping with sequencers.. Message-Id: <199801161340.IAA16351@shell.monmouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit does anyone use a sequencer for looping???? I do, and i'm wondering where the line is, i mean, most of our delays are digital, too...hmmmm. I just hit record (like kicking on one of my delays) on a roland msq100 or 700, play a live, usually spontaneous idea till i want..(end of loop) - then i hit stop and play, then let the material loop once or indefinitely.... is it looping??? i'd like to hear some thoughts on that, some opinions...maybe i've missed it, but haven't heard of anyone using this tool, sequencers have a bad name due to madonna and certain rush songs on stage, etc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:18:18 +0300 From: miguel.barella@poyry.com.br (MAT) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Tom Lambrecht Subject: Re[2]: MicroSynth Message-ID: <000090C6.4007@poyry.com.br> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part For the Electro Harmonix admirers: there is a site with all the schematics. http://home.earthlink.net/~theehman/schem.htm#Electro-Harmonix Miguel ___________________________ Separador de Resposta ______________________________ Assunto: Re: MicroSynth Autor: Tom Lambrecht na internet Data: 16/01/1998 04:15 Matthias: if you are going to try to make a killing on this, now is a good time to fix it. this is one of two units that EH has scheduled for reissue (which will probably adversely impact the used market price). Tom At 03:07 PM 1/15/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Matthias Grob said: > >> Someone gave me one that does not work. If its value is high, it might >> motivate me to fix it. >> >> How much is the offer for a perfectly working one? >> >> Matthias >> > > >I just gave a partially-working one to former listmember Russ Gorton (which >I bought new in 1981 for about $200). The street price in the US is as >much as $600 per--Bog knows why. Apart from some groovy envelope >filtering, it's basically a crappy octaver and crappy fuzz with a noisy >footswitch. > >Scott > > > > Tom Lambrecht hideo@concentric.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:36:02 -0500 From: "Sellon, Bob (Exchange)" To: Loopers Delight Subject: Email Avalanch/routing Message-Id: <215C1D5A0FFDD011B3CC00805FC18C291F80FE@NTSRV2.LEXICON.COM> Content-Type: text/plain Does anyone know how to route "Loopers-Delight" email to a particular folder under Microsoft Exhange (V5.0)? I tried using the Inbox Assistant but couldn't seem to get it to work. It always seems to look at the originators address instead of LoopersDelight. The sheer volume of messages is killing me and I would rather not "unsubscribe" if I can get the messages sent quietly to my LoopersDelight folder. Many thanks. Bob Sellon Engineer Lexicon/Stec ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:35:25 -0800 From: Kim Flint To: , Subject: Re: Looping with sequencers.. Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:40 AM -0500 1/16/98, Andre Cholmodeley wrote: >does anyone use a sequencer for looping???? I do, and i'm wondering where >the line is, i mean, most of our delays are digital, too...hmmmm. > >I just hit record (like kicking on one of my delays) on a roland msq100 or >700, play a live, usually spontaneous idea till i want..(end of loop) - >then i hit stop and play, then let the material loop once or >indefinitely.... > >is it looping??? i'd like to hear some thoughts on that, some >opinions...maybe i've missed it, but haven't heard of anyone using this >tool, sequencers have a bad name due to madonna and certain rush songs on >stage, etc I think that's looping, but then I'm well known for not being much of a purist on the subject. I don't think it really matters how the sound happens to be generated. What difference does it make if it starts out as a midi event, or audio recorded in digital memory, or a tape loop, or some big mechanical apparatus, or a turntable, or just your fingers? The ultimate conceptual loopiness of the end product is the key thing, the other stuff is just the tools to get there. The kind of sequencer that records by looping over a pattern, recording everything played into it while playing what's already there, that sounds like looping to me! Usually the features aren't very well optimized for the performance, but it seems like it could work ok. Another example, I downloaded the Rebirth demo a while back, which is basically a simulation of 2 TB-303's and a TR-808, with some filtering, distortion, and delay effects. It has the same basic, stupid kind of sequencing that those boxes had in their day. And it's great for real-time looping stuff. (assuming you like the very well-worn sounds that it makes.) You just start it up and begin adding things to the sequence, taking them out again, playing with the filters, changing levels, etc. Pretty fun. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:32:17 -0500 From: Michael Peters To: "'INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Email Avalanch/routing Message-ID: <199801161533_MC2-2F94-F203@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline >Does anyone know how to route "Loopers-Delight" >email to a particular folder under Microsoft >Exhange (V5.0)? I tried using the Inbox Assistant I haven't managed to install the Inbox Assistant either. Maybe you need to run your mail client in a network under Exchange Server. ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:00:26 -0500 From: Jeff Duke To: andre@monmouth.com CC: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Looping with sequencers.. Message-ID: <34BFD879.8E2000EF@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey ya'll,Interesting thought,one of the most common responses that I get when I loop live is;where are the tape recorders!Very few people seem to know anything about the means of achieving the effect of multiple players using digital delays,let alone sequencers. My favorite show every year is when my band Techno Babble plays the annual Jolly Elementery School PTA fundraising event,the kids just seem to accept the sound on it's own merit and dance to the music with out questioning how it is being done.Personally I don't care how either,if it moves me I like it. Jeff Duke sr. TecBabLabs;http://members.tripod.com/~dukesr/index.html Andre Cholmodeley wrote: > does anyone use a sequencer for looping???? I do, and i'm wondering where > the line is, i mean, most of our delays are digital, too...hmmmm. > > I just hit record (like kicking on one of my delays) on a roland msq100 or > 700, play a live, usually spontaneous idea till i want..(end of loop) - > then i hit stop and play, then let the material loop once or > indefinitely.... > > is it looping??? i'd like to hear some thoughts on that, some > opinions...maybe i've missed it, but haven't heard of anyone using this > tool, sequencers have a bad name due to madonna and certain rush songs on > stage, etc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:59:07 -0500 (EST) From: CORROSIVE@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Re: MicroSynth Message-ID: <980116165907_608065895@mrin52> Tom-what's the other EH unit scheduled for re-issue? the 16 sec delay?? when?!! gimme!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 17:25:05 -0600 From: Goddess To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Hello... Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971016172505.0079c6a0@pop3.concentric.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 16:45:11 -0600 >To: loopers-delight@anihilist.com >From: Goddess >Subject: Hello... > > Hello, I've just joined the looper's delight list earlier this week and have been listening to some the conversation back and forth. Now that I have some time, I wanted to write and just say "hi". I've been involved with looping for at least seven years now and am glad to have been made aware of this list. I think it can be a wonderful resource... > My first introduction to loops was from hearing Brian Eno and Robert Fripp with Frippertronics. I'd beeen working with delays before that point, however, they were not long enough to do any substancial loops in my opinion. I unfortunately didn't have the money or the sources to find a couple of tape machines I could use so, I was still out in the cold... I then heard about the electro-harmonix peddal that had 16 seconds of sampling time and was reversable. From that point on, I was on a quest to find a peddal which was afordable and could achieve what I needed. What I found was the PDS8000 from digitech which worked quite nicely for a while but did not have the frequency response I was looking for. I then moved up to the RDS8000 which is the rack-mounted version of the same. It actually has a few more features than the peddal... Oh, by the way, for those who aren't familiar with those two things, they had a sampling time of eight seconds. I then heard about the Jam-Man and got one immediately when they came out and proceded immediately also to upgrade it fully. I've used the Lexicon ever since and I love it! I'm currently looking to get an Oberheim Echo-plex digital pro. > Anyway, enough about the gear... I am currently living in Boulder Colorado and don't find to many people here who know much about, or do much with looping. I work in a music store and currently teach guitar there also so if there's any place to meet musicians here, I'm there... If there's anyone in my area, please don't hesitate to write me. I like lots of different types of music so I'm open to just about anything... > Thanks again for the existance of this list, as loopers seem sparce to me where ever I am in the country. It's nice to hear that there is some sort of meeting place for us. I look forward to more interesting e-mail... > >smiles, > >Corynne > >P.S. Are there any other women on this list? --------------------------------