Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:27:48 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: welcome! Welcome! You're all in the first wave of subscribers to the Looper's Delight list, so welcome and thanks for the interest! As some of you probably noticed, the bugs aren't quite all worked out here at Loop Central and the list seems to misbehave sometimes. My sysadmin has promised to give me full write permissions to the list parameter files, but so far it hasn't quite happened yet. Hopefully I'll actually fix things rather than making them worse ;-). So until I get stuff fixed try to remember these few little workarounds: - Reply-to: is not being set in the header of messages, so make sure your replies are going to the list and not just to the person who wrote the post. - Resent-to: is showing up in the header and spewing out a list of everyone's address that vaguely resembles yours. This is really lame, and I'll get rid of it as soon as I figure it out. Pretend you don't see it for now. - If you send any requests to the Loopers-Delight-request address, or if you tell a friend to subscribe or whatever, don't use .sig files. The request processor gets easily confused and just sends the useless help file that I don't have permission to write yet. It took a cruel sense of humor to name this software "Smartlist"... - In the unlikely event that you ever need to unsubscribe, sent a message to Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com with "unsubscribe" in both the subject and body. No signatures! But anyway, it works well enough for us to get on with it and start talkin' loops! So I guess my first questions for you all are, what do you think? Do you have ideas for how the list should work or what could be on the web page? Let's talk about it! The web page, and if you've been there you know, doesn't have a whole lot on it yet. I see that as sort of a community effort. If you get motivated and want to contribute something to it, please do! The more we all put something into it, the better it gets, I think. Welcome, and enjoy..... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:01:46 -0500 From: Jim Coker To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Software update for Echoplex? I'm short on time, so I can't give a real intro yet, but I do have a quick post that should stir up something. I got an echoplex a few months ago, and I understand there have been some software updates to the box, but I can't find out hot to get them. Any suggestions? Jim Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:54:17 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Software update for Echoplex? At 12:01 PM 9/11/96 -0500, you wrote: >I'm short on time, so I can't give a real intro yet, but I >do have a quick post that should stir up something. I only have time for a short answer, so here you go.... >I got an echoplex a few months ago, and I understand there >have been some software updates to the box, but I can't find >out hot to get them. Any suggestions? > >Jim The software that came with your echoplex is the most current *shipping* software. A lot of work has been done on an upgrade that is actually really, really good. It's currently being held up by a contract problem at Oberheim. I'm trying to help the various parties work it out, hopefully soon. One way or another I'm sure it will get out there. kim ___________________________________ Kim Flint OEM Engineering Chromatic Research 408-752-9284 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: "ToddM" Date: 10 Sep 1996 17:52:07CST6CDT Subject: Greetings... Hi folks: Just wanted to announce my presence....I'm a guitarist/composer/multi-instrumentalist residing in the Minneapolis area and into this kind of thing. I've been into loops and delays for quite a while now, used to credit myself as "DRONE guitars" on my self-released tapes for some things I must say...and why not? I thought I was just weird, taking Allan Holdsworth's "volume pedal with delayed guitar through multi-voice chorus" to its next logical conclusion. Then I discovered Dave Torn's stuff and thought: "god, are other people doing this sort of thing too?" And then I found out that lots of others were doing it too. Musically I was treated as the crazy aunt under the cellar since I would often do some godawful screaming legato solo and then sit and drone for minutes driving drummers to distraction. EOS, by Terje Rypdal and David Darling sort of became a major obsession for a while. I'm now using three bits to do looping, none of them are really designed as "long delay loopers" like the Oberheim or JamMan, but they do the job: o Lexicon Vortex (Yes, I know, only about two seconds of delay but added to the below.....) o ART SGE (yes, I know, only 1.5 ms of delay, but added to the above....) o Boss DD-3 (yes, I know, only 800ms of delay, but added to the above...) I find that I can create a SWIRLING WHIRLIGIG FRENZY OF SOUND this way. Anyway, the Vortex I bought recently for about $150 new and I found a neat addendum to the owners manual that was sitting elsewhere in the music store I bought it, so I grabbed it and it has all sorts of hints on using it as a looping sampler among other things, it has several cascade loop effects which is quite nice and in combination with tap tempo delays I like it quite a lot. I intend on publishing that little manual addendum for loop-addicts soonly, Lexicon willing (like they'd care, right? Maybe so...I like their stuff...) I'd like to get a JamMan (8 seconds of high-quality audio delay out of the box...nice) or Oberheim (the first is in theoretical reach, the second a bit more expensive than I can justify at present, though I'd love it....) Anyway....I'll sign off now. Have fun and continue looping. By the way, did I tell you that I store loops on VHS Hi-Fi videocassettes because DATs are a bit steep for me? It works, too. You just need a decent VCR without the typical compression most of them have (i.e. you get what you pay for, the better ones are pretty crystalline sounding...) -- Todd Madson Associate Technical Specialist (ATS) LaserMaster Big Color Technical Support LaserMaster W3 Site: http://www.lasermaster.com/ Personal W3 Site: http://www.waste.org/~crash/ Personal mail address: crash@waste.org Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:18:40 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Here we are Good to see the list up and running. Here are some things I'd like to see on the Web site: -- A list of essential loop-based recordings, with at least minimal review material added. This would be an ideal way to try and compile the most definitive works by the most prominent loopists (is that what we're supposed to call outselves?) Obvious candidates for such a list (IMHO): Fripp and Eno's _No Pussyfooting_, any of Fripp's solo records from the last two years, both of the last two Torn solo albums (and probably several others of his as well), and no doubt a slew of others of which I'm presently unaware. -- A companion list of prominent loop-based artists. Similar to above, but with more emphasis on the individual's career and approach rather than a definitive works-type of analysis. -- A FAQ for the Echoplex. Until such time as the upgrade becomes available (and even afterwards, probably), there are a lot of people who probably have some of the same questions/problems with the unit. (Not to try and knock what is undoubtedly the deepest instrument in its highly limited realm, of course, but there are at least a few unfortunate gremlins floating about in the initial version that have caused me a few headaches). -- An archive page on the Web site, containing sound samples (or links to samples) by loopists, including the members of this list. (Check out the list-member's page at Paolo Valladolid's Digital Guitar Page for an example). This should be fun -- I look forward to seeing what we can come up with. Thanks again to Kim for getting the ball rolling! --Andre LaFosse Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:54:27 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: studio seventeen productions Subject: Unidentified subject! Nice to be part of the start of a list instead of joing three years into it! Great suggestion about compiling lists of important loop recordings......indeed No Pussyfooting, Evening Star.....eno's Discreet Music... I'll do up a proper list and send it in a couple days. I am currently using the Oberheim (108 second config), a Digitech RDS-8000 (8 second delay), and a Digitech TSR-24S (5 seconds + a million other sounds) as the basis for my set-up. However, my primary INPUT device is energy bow guitar, which I've specialized in for about fifteen years: as well as standard guitar, a discman to capture bits of anonymous CD sounds; and a Yamaha DX11. I wrote up a complete and detailed description of my set-up for some one that questioned me via our web site, so as I told Kim I'll also get that out, review it and submit it for possible inclusion on the web page. Perhaps Kim can create a SETUPS page and we can all send in our routing, device intenconnections, etc. and what we're able to accomplish musically with the setup. I know it would be helpful for me to look at alternative setups, in fact I made some major major changes to how I do things after I was fortunate enough to speak with John Sinks (RF's guitar tech). I'm sure we'll all get more in depth about set-ups and hope we can share some good ideas and system improvements... Can't wait for the Oberheim upgrade, but the box is pretty amazing even as is. That's about it for now...let's get some contributions made to the page... and get this thing going! There are a lot more loopers out there than you think, and in fact my partner Bryan Helm and I recorded and performed for five years creating live in-the-moment loops, Bryan looping drum machine and synth with a JamMan and a 16-second delay and myself on energy bow and guitar & synth with the setup noted above. A BAND of loopers as it were! also if you get a chance visit our page (address below) there are some decent downloadable samples too. thanks for listening!!! dave at studio seventeen lead me in with a count of seventeen... Mr. Blint Consequences/Godley & Creme visit: http:www.adnc.com/web/ambient/index.html seventeen: the ambient music page Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:22:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Consider me in And just loop the loop! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 02:13:10 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Here we are >Good to see the list up and running. > >Here are some things I'd like to see on the Web site: > >-- A list of essential loop-based recordings, with at least minimal review >material added. This would be an ideal way to try and compile the most >definitive works by the most prominent loopists (is that what we're >supposed to call outselves?) Obvious candidates for such a list (IMHO): >Fripp and Eno's _No Pussyfooting_, any of Fripp's solo records from the >last two years, both of the last two Torn solo albums (and probably >several others of his as well), and no doubt a slew of others of which I'm >presently unaware. This is a great idea. If any of you want do little mini-reviews of your favorite loop-based recordings, or even just a list, go for it! Send them to me or post them and we'll put a section up on the web page for it. > >-- A companion list of prominent loop-based artists. Similar to above, >but with more emphasis on the individual's career and approach rather >than a definitive works-type of analysis. This is already a plan for the page. Unfortunately, I probably don't know enough about any one artist to do anything real interesting. Any takers? Even little bits and pieces on different loop artists would be cool. We can glue 'em all together. Another idea that's been proposed along these lines is a page about some of us ordinary folks, who do our thing in the garage most of the time. I like that grassroots approach. We can put up url's to home pages, audio clips, gear descriptions, contact info, etc. So if you want to be self-promotional and make a page for yourself, that would be great. We can get to know each other a little better that way. > >-- A FAQ for the Echoplex. Until such time as the upgrade becomes >available (and even afterwards, probably), there are a lot of people who >probably have some of the same questions/problems with the unit. (Not to >try and knock what is undoubtedly the deepest instrument in its highly >limited realm, of course, but there are at least a few unfortunate >gremlins floating about in the initial version that have caused me a few >headaches). I'll do this. Its one of the main reasons I started this whole thing. I've answered just about every damn question there could be about the echoplex at least twice! :-) I know I talked to some of you out there back in my g-wiz days. I also want to do a section of my favorite echoplex techniques and tricks. Most people who own them have only touched the surface of what they are capable of. Usually a few examples of the interesting techniques possible with the deeper functions really opens the creative floodgates. > >-- An archive page on the Web site, containing sound samples (or links to >samples) by loopists, including the members of this list. (Check out the >list-member's page at Paolo Valladolid's Digital Guitar Page for an example). I'm going to look into archiving list posts. I think the software might be able to do it automatically. The sysadmin gave me maximum permission to edit the list parameters today, so I'll be causing serious damage and hopefully fixing a few bugs in the list over the next week or so. >This should be fun -- I look forward to seeing what we can come up with. >Thanks again to Kim for getting the ball rolling! > >--Andre LaFosse Thanks for joining and making it worth the effort! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:13:55 -0400 From: cwb@platinum.com (Clark Battle) To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: how much is an echoplex? How much does an echoplex cost (US) anyway? Is there anywhere i can try one out within a reasonoble driving distance from Philly? Clark Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 07:45:39 -0400 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Unidentified subject! Hello all! Looks like we, loopers, are finally coming out of the closet! The Jam Man has changed the way I play -- I've never been able to write "verse/chorus" type songs, but I've always enjoyed jamming. The Jam Man has allowed me to start with a groove, then layer sounds, until I end up with a full-blown groove and/or texture -- and all without having to mess with tape decks, levels, etc. I have found that: simple is better! Although I consider myself technically proficient, I have found that the less I have to mess with the technical side, while performing, the more musically inspired I become. I imagine I am not alone in thinking this way. Anyways, I have been running the Jam Man on the effects loop of a small mixer, with my bass and guitar and a microphone plugged into the inputs of the mixer. I usually start the loops with an acoustic drum, to create a groove, throw in a bass line, add some textures with an accordian, then jam guitar to my heart's content! At first, I was upset that I couldn't "edit" or "save" my loop with the jam man -- but I have found that this has freed me up: I'm not concerned about getting it "just right." I just play! I have had a lot of fun with this approach, especially when there is no-one around to jam with. However, I've also created some loops, that I enjoyed so much, it was rather painful to erase. I am interested in learning some of the techniques people are using to save, and possibly edit loops, after the fact. I have a Macintosh -- are there some good (and inexpensive) digital editors out there for the Mac? Anyways, I'm happy to be a part of this listing, and I hope I can contribute. Cheers! - Chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:05:40 -0600 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: kholmhud@nwu.edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Essential loop recordings Responding to The Man Himself's post, I agree that _No Pussyfooting_ and Fripp's recent soundscapes work are essential for any looper's library--Torn is another obvious choice. I'd like to share perhaps some _non_-obvious choices from the "art-music" (whatever that is) realm: Daniel Lentz--a great and sadly neglected West Coast composer, does some very intricate stuff with cascading echo systems. IMO his finest is _Missa Umbrarum_, which is on CD on the New Albion label. Lentz's singers sing the text of the Roman Catholic mass a syllable at a time into looping systems of various durations, and each movement of the mass is also in a different style--eventually they all combine seamlessly. Accompanying the voices, by the way, are tuned wine glasses (filled with wine, natch), which are struck, rubbed, bowed, etc. like one big glass pipe organ. (The singers also drink specified amounts of the wine during performance, to change the pitch--naturally adding a fun element of inebriation to the performance praxis.) Other Lentz albums that explore interlocking synth loops in a quasi-Reich way are _On the Leopard Altar_ (probably out of print) and _The Crack in the Bell_ (definitely out of print--it was on Angel records, and you can still find cut-outs from time to time.) He's also recorded several piano pieces that use massed pianos and loops. Is there room on this list for looping not supported by technology? I'm thinking for example of Erik Satie's _Vexations_ (a slow piano phrase repeated 840 times--taking some 17 hours; I participated in a group performance of this in the early 80s) and Terry Riley's seminal _In C_, which certainly involves looping although manually played. Glad to see this list is up and running so quickly! Kevin Holm-Hudson Department of Academic Studies and Composition Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 "The mind should wander long before the pitch begins to." -Khh ******************************************************************************* From: "Steven R. Murrell" To: "'Loop'" Subject: Introduction Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:25:49 -0400 Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Steve Murrell and I play the Chapman Grand Stick(TM). Among other things, my set-up includes a Lexicon JamMan with 32 Second capability. I have thouroughly enjoyed the JamMan so far and consider it a good value for the money (about $500.00 with the expanded memory chips). I have found that this unit in combination with my multi-effects unit (Digitech Valve F/X) can do some very powerfull things. I am interested in hearing from the rest of you regarding what units are out there, including approximate prices and functions. I will ba adding a second looping unit soon and would like to hear recommendations and discussions. Also, my musical influences include Steve Reich, Philip Glass, Robert Fripp, Mick Karn, David Torn, and many others. Discussions concerning these artists and others would interest me as well. Bye for now, Steve Murrell smurrell@ford.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:49:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Hello and such Just thought I'd say hi to everyone, and make a little comment about looping technique. I'm a guitarist, and I use a Lexicon JamMan for looping, as well as a Lexicon Vortex for lots of interesting loop-like work. The Vortex is a really neat little box. Basically, it's just two delays, two modulators, and an envelope follower. Lexicon gives a number of programs putting these effects in various orders, in heavily interactive ways. Many programs feature cross-feedback for the delays, or series delays with feedback loops going from one delay to the other. Tempo is tapped in, like the JamMan, and the delay "time" is actually set as a fraction of the tap. So it's easy to set up consistent polyrhythmic echoes with this thing. Some of the programs also use the envelope follower to modulate delay feedback, either fading out old sounds as new ones come in, or modulating the volume of the echoes relative to the input signal. In other words, it's the most dynamically responsive low-cost rackmount effect I've ever used. Unfortunately, total delay time is limited to around a second. But there are LOTS of cool things you can do with that! I really like using the Vortex to build a short, complex atmospheric sound, and then feeding that into the JamMan and letting it loop and modulate. Here's a technique I use with the JamMan to get a more flexible, improvisational feel from it. When I first got it, I tended to use it to start a loop, then punch in more layers. But what I found was that things just got bigger and louder and bigger and louder. It had a very one-way dynamic. Now, rather than using the looping functions, I usually prefer to just use its delay function. There are 16 delay feedback levels, controlled by the knob on the front. Turn the feedback up high and start looping. At 16, you effectively have infinite repeat. As things build, you can turn the feedback down and let a loop fade, then turn it back up and add more to the loop while the older material floats in the background. This makes for a much more dynamic and rewarding looping improv, I think. I just have two problems now... first, I don't get to do nearly enough looping. I don't have a studio space safe from my two toddler children, and they like to play with knobs altogether too much. The only way I can play is to go through my long setup process after the kids go to bed, and tear it apart before they get up in the morning. Second, I'm primarily an acoustic guitarist, not electric. I don't play electric much and I'm not really comfortable on it. Hopefully, I'll be getting a new acoustic with a pickup soon, and I'll see how that works as a tone source. I rather like the idea of sending the warm, woody sound of an acoustic guitar through my effects and seeing what comes out! Maybe, if I can get my new guitar and build a safe studio space, I'll get better at this. :} By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.leepfrog.com */ -Charles Fort /* http://www.leepfrog.com/~dstagner */ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:37:36 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Please do the digest thing. >See subject. > >aTdHvAaNnKcSe >Pat Hickey (I'll tell you about my looping soon, I promise) ***SPH >brzrkr@nielsenmedia.com I'll try to figure out how to do this. The list software claims to have the capability, I just have to decipher the cryptic manual and even more cryptic preference files. I'll let you know as I get it working. Since the list is new there are a few quirks in the software I'd like to get rid of. Bear with me there. It works well enough, just pretend not to notice the occasional hiccups! I work about a billion hours a week, so it may take a few days before I find enough free seconds to fix the various "features" that this brilliant list soft has to offer.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com Date: 11 Sep 1996 14:46:18CST6CDT Subject: Vortex of Fun.. DStagner said: > The Vortex is a really neat little box. Yep. > Basically, it's just two delays, two modulators, and an envelope > follower. It sounds so simple, but there's really a lot to it. I also like that ultimately, though it effects your signal, it doesn't ruin your tone or change it significantly, it just effects what is already there. And the effects are warm and organic sounding. > Lexicon gives a number of programs putting these effects in > various orders, in heavily interactive ways. I especially like the dynamic changes just the slightest touch (in terms of guitar) can effect. > Many programs feature cross-feedback for the delays, > or series delays with feedback loops going from one delay > to the other. This is one of the more powerful features - it's especially good for drum machines since you can create powerful polyrhythms with it. > Tempo is tapped in, like the JamMan, and the delay "time" is > actually set as a fraction of the tap. So it's easy to set up > consistent polyrhythmic echoes with this thing. Yep. You can create pseudo "Discipline"-era King Crimson interlocking guitar parts with just one guitar this way, too. > Some of the programs also use the envelope follower to modulate > delay feedback, either fading out old sounds as new ones come in, Especially good if you start finding that the building of your loop is starting to generate tons of noise from the older signal and you want it to evolve a bit. It's also great for drums since it takes older signals out as new one comes in and makes it sound much more natural than drums going through a delay unit. > or modulating the volume of the echoes relative to the > input signal. It won't get in your way, although you can shut the dynamic response off and make it spew all over your signals too if you want. > In other words, it's the most dynamically responsive low-cost > rackmount effect I've ever used. I can't believe that Guitar Center was all but giving them away for $150 a pop. They were selling about ten a day towards the end. > Unfortunately, total delay time is limited to around a second. Actually, 1946 milliseconds to be exact. Anyone who can modify this thing to have longer delays will be practically deified. Any takers? What does Lexicon say about that? > But there are LOTS of cool things you can do with that! Indeed. > I really like using the Vortex to build a short, complex > atmospheric sound, and then feeding that into the JamMan and > letting it loop and modulate. Or, you could work it the other way around - take a long loop from the JamMan and process it to death in the Vortex... Andre said: ----------------------------- > How much does an echoplex cost (US) anyway? Is > there anywhere i can try one out within a reasonoble > driving distance from Philly? > Echoplexes often aren't as expensive as you'd think. The retail is about > $879 for a new unit, but for just over $500 I picked up a brand new unit > *plus* the foot controller. A really good deal, I might add. Anyone have a clue as to a dealer in the upper midwest who has these where I could try one out? > Why? The store I got it at (Nadine's here in L.A., incidentally one of > the few places I've found that even stocks the thing) wanted to move the > units. Wish someone in the upper midwest would do that. > Loopers are pretty esoteric; very few people know what they are, and > most of the few that do don't have the right combination of interest and > finance. Probably why Guitar Center was selling Vortex for $150 and JamMan for somewhere in the $300 range....most musicians, despite their reputation are a conservative lot and the marketing campaign for Vortex kind of made it sound like a WACKY effect (BLEEN and AEROSOL and FRACTAL effects notwithstanding). My theory is I'd bet most people didn't try it because of that. Most people are reluctant to buy $478 (list) rack effects that don't do anything useful for them..or are gimmicky. It's far from being gimmicky, but the marketing was weird for that product. I'd bet a lot of musicians thought it was a strange effect just in the descriptions. I watch people test the VG-8 by Roland in Guitar Center and there are few that seem to "get it". I see a lot of people using it to make goofy guitar sounds, but few "get" the possibilities therein. > So you should be able to track down one of the three "Big Ones" (JamMan, > Echoplex, or Boomerang) at a pretty decent cost. Way cool. That's what I want to grab next. > Imagining the day Boss comes out with the $250 LP-1 looping stompbox, Don't make me drool. Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:49:29 -0700 (PDT) To: Loopers-Delight@slip.net From: finley@ecst.csuchico.edu (Matthew F. McCabe) Subject: Re: Hello and such >Here's a technique I use with the JamMan to get a more flexible, >improvisational feel from it. When I first got it, I tended to use it to >start a loop, then punch in more layers. But what I found was that >things just got bigger and louder and bigger and louder. It had a very >one-way dynamic. Now, rather than using the looping functions, I usually >prefer to just use its delay function. There are 16 delay feedback >levels, controlled by the knob on the front. Turn the feedback up high >and start looping. At 16, you effectively have infinite repeat. As >things build, you can turn the feedback down and let a loop fade, then >turn it back up and add more to the loop while the older material floats >in the background. This makes for a much more dynamic and rewarding >looping improv, I think. Dave, that's a great idea. I just tried it and it works wonderfully....although now I must rush back to work.... Using your idea, loopers will be able to create continuous loops that can change textures and tonal centers over time. Very cool! Matt Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:47:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@slip.net Subject: Re: Hello and such On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Matthew F. McCabe wrote: > Dave, that's a great idea. I just tried it and it works > wonderfully....although now I must rush back to work.... > > Using your idea, loopers will be able to create continuous loops that can > change textures and tonal centers over time. Very cool! > > Matt Actually, credit should go as much to Robert Fripp and Frippertronics as to me. I got the idea from listening to _Let the Power Fall_, Fripp's classic looping album. He would do the same trick, building a little structure with the loop, then fading it into the background and building more on top of it. Sometimes you can hear several old structures still beeping away in the murk while he's adding new notes. And those Revox tape machines sounded SO nice. Someone mentioned how good the Lexicon boxes sounded. I couldn't agree more. Most digital effects (and many analog ones) seem to do horrible things to the dynamic range and liveliness of the original sound. At this point, the only digital effects in my signal chain are the Vortex, the JamMan, and a horrible old Boss Pitch Shifter/Delay stomp box that I (rarely) use specifically for its artificial, robot-voice quality. I think it actually has only a 12 bit digitizer. With this in mind, I think Lexicon COMPLETELY blew it marketing the Vortex. Are they even making them now? I got mine for $220 last year, and word was Lexicon was dropping them due to poor sales. The marketing I did see emphasized the morphing ability (which I hardly ever use) and the weirdo effects like Bleen (which does rather sound like an alien farting). But to me, it's just an exquisitely *guitaristic* effects box. Lack of MIDI isn't a big loss. The envelope follower, expression pedal, tap delay, fascinating programs, relatively simple interface, and rich sound quality are HUGE wins. I just run a rackmount preamp into it, and out comes this wonderful sound. It seems to me much more musician-oriented than the hordes of boxes out there with ten zillion "effects" and no character. And as long as I'm talking... I have to admit, as many of us do, I'm beginning to despair of ever seeing a low-cost, high-function, musician-oriented looping device on the commercial market. They're all either too pricy (TC 2290), too limiting (JamMan), poor sound, or (worst) out of production. But... I think there may be a solution. And that solution is software. Ordinary desktop PCs and Macs these days offer 16 bit full duplex sound recording, huge memories (16 bit stereo sound is about 10mb/minute), and blazingly fast CPUs. And pleasant input devices, in the form of MIDI faders, expression pedals, and footswitches, are also commercially available. So why not just turn a PC into our looping device? It may be a little impractical for the stage, but it'd be GREAT for home recording and playing. Performance interaction could occur via any MIDI device, and new/clever functionality could be added at the software level. A gui with a keyboard and mouse could be used, rather than the tiny knobs, buttons and LCD screens that can fit on a 19" rack. Save your loops? Use the computer's filesystem. Process your loops in real time. Switch instantly between loops. Reverse them. Extend them. I really like this idea. Once you take the hardware issues (digitizing, user interface) out of it, it's just a matter of throwing CPU and RAM at the problem until it goes away. Anyone wanna buy me a new computer so I can write this? -dave Date: 12 Sep 96 01:52:33 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: Re: how much is an echoplex? hi all, I'm planning to visit London soon (I'm from Germany) and need some ideas about where to go to find 1. cool CDs and 2. cool music hardware. Is there anyone from London who can help me? (Please don't respond to the list, but send private email) -M Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:31:41 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@slip.net Subject: Echoplex/Jamman Whaaaat? You happy fellow should know that a jaman is around (converted in US dollars) $1000 here in france, not to mention the price of an echoplex! Darn it! you said you could have a jam man for 150 bucks! It is going to drive me crazy! By the way, perhaps you could tell me, you fortunate guys, before I spend my BIG bucks on it, what differences between the two units, what I can do xith one, not with the others, what kind of memory they do accept to increase their delay time, if I can do it myself, if you can add one memory chip at a time (some electronic units accept only changes by pairs) If you don't want to drive everyone crazy, since this thing is not in digest form for the moment, you can e-mail me privately. Thanxxxx in advance Olivier Malhomme Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:38:52 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Clark Battle cc: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: how much is an echoplex? > How much does an echoplex cost (US) anyway? Is > there anywhere i can try one out within a reasonoble > driving distance from Philly? Echoplexes often aren't as expensive as you'd think. The retail is about $879 for a new unit, but for just over $500 I picked up a brand new unit *plus* the foot controller. Why? The store I got it at (Nadine's here in L.A., incidentally one of the few places I've found that even stocks the thing) wanted to move the units. Loopers are pretty esoteric; very few people know what they are, and most of the few that do don't have the right combination of interest and finance. So you should be able to track down one of the three "Big Ones" (JamMan, Echoplex, or Boomerang) at a pretty decent cost. Imagining the day Boss comes out with the $250 LP-1 looping stompbox, --Andre Date: 11 Sep 96 09:23:38 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: Re: Here we are I think the Loopers web site should carry a page about the history of looping. Matthias' musings article is good for a start, but there should be more details on who did what when how. I'd like to volunteer to collect material and write such a history page (if this is ok with Kim), but looking at the sparse data I have on this subject, I need everybody's support - if you know something about the topic, write me (send private email). Eno's and Fripp's achievements are obvious, but I doubt that the classic tape loop system was actually invented by Eno - I guess someone in the electronic/avantgarde music scene did it, but I'm not sure who. I'd also like to at least point to the minimalists' use of long echo lines (Terry Riley's 'Rainbow in Curved Air' was 1971, 4 years before Discreet Music). -Michael Peters (looping with the Paradis Loop Delay) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/music.htm Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:26:10 -0400 From: "Jason N. Joseph" <73311.213@compuserve.com> Subject: welcome! To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@slip.net" Er, how do I set this thing in digest form? My office e-mailbox doesn't like to receive a huge number of messages... jj 73311.213@compuserve.com From: "S. Patrick Hickey" To: Loopers-Delight@slip.net Subject: Please do the digest thing. Resent-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:12:21 -0700 See subject. aTdHvAaNnKcSe Pat Hickey (I'll tell you about my looping soon, I promise) ***SPH brzrkr@nielsenmedia.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:08:15 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Here we are >I think the Loopers web site should carry a page about the history of >looping. Matthias' musings article is good for a start, but there should be >more details on who did what when how. > >I'd like to volunteer to collect material and write such a history page >(if this is ok with Kim), but looking at the sparse data I have on this >subject, I need everybody's support - if you know something about the topic, >write me (send private email). Please go right ahead! I wrote a text about the development of the Oberheim Echoplex, which I've been planning to expand and put on the web page. Matthias wrote a piece on the Echoplex's precursor, the Paradis LoopDelay, which I will also put up as soon as I figure out where I lost it on my hard disk. I'm sure Jon Durant can help us out with Lexicon info. And then of course there are the many important artists and the contributions they have made. Fripp/Eno/Torn are obvious ones. There are other genres where looping is real prominent as well. Hip-hop, techno, house, trip-hop, ambient-techno, dub, etc have all developed looping in interesting ways, and now those influences are pretty much common place in pop music. In fact, one thing I'm really interested in discussing on this list is the different approaches and techniques to looping found in different styles of music. I think we can learn a lot from each other by sharing these different approaches and reapplying them in our own music. >Eno's and Fripp's achievements are obvious, but I doubt that the >classic tape loop system was actually invented by Eno - I guess someone in >the electronic/avantgarde music scene did it, but I'm not sure who. If I remember right, it was people in radio stations who first came up with the idea of tape delays. I'm sure someone knows who they were. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:15:31 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@slip.net From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: how much is an echoplex? >> How much does an echoplex cost (US) anyway? Is >> there anywhere i can try one out within a reasonoble >> driving distance from Philly? > >Echoplexes often aren't as expensive as you'd think. The retail is about >$879 for a new unit, but for just over $500 I picked up a brand new unit >*plus* the foot controller. Why? The store I got it at (Nadine's here >in L.A., incidentally one of the few places I've found that even stocks >the thing) wanted to move the units. Loopers are pretty esoteric; very >few people know what they are, and most of the few that do don't have the >right combination of interest and finance. So you should be able to >track down one of the three "Big Ones" (JamMan, Echoplex, or Boomerang) >at a pretty decent cost. > >Imagining the day Boss comes out with the $250 LP-1 looping stompbox, > >--Andre Also, the Echoplex uses 30 pin SIMMs for memory. I've seen prices for the 4MB simms as low as $30!!!! That means you can get a full 200 seconds in an Echoplex for only $120 or so. When the thing first came out nearly 2 years ago, the 4MB simms were close to $200 each, and having the full 200 seconds seemed like such an extravagant luxury. Now it seems like everyone should have that much.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:29:43 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! >Anyways, I have been running the Jam Man on the effects loop of a small >mixer, with my bass and guitar and a microphone plugged into the inputs of >the mixer. I usually start the loops with an acoustic drum, to create a >groove, throw in a bass line, add some textures with an accordian, then jam >guitar to my heart's content! At first, I was upset that I couldn't "edit" >or "save" my loop with the jam man -- but I have found that this has freed >me up: I'm not concerned about getting it "just right." I just play! I >have had a lot of fun with this approach, especially when there is no-one >around to jam with. However, I've also created some loops, that I enjoyed >so much, it was rather painful to erase. You know, I've had the same experience. I'm basically an improv player, and I find looping fits that just perfectly. During the echoplex development I created and destroyed thousands and thousands of loops while testing one thing or another. Some of them were really good, too. But I found that it didn't really bother me after a while. I developed a confidence in myself that at any given time I could make a pretty good loop right off the top of my head, so saving them wasn't so important. The exciting and challenging thing for me is the creation of something new and interesting each time. The process of developing a loop is the fun part. Once I'm done with it, I'm usually not so interested in it anymore, and want to make a new one. >Cheers! > >- Chris > >--------------------------------------- >Chris Chovit >cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov >--------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:43:15 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Essential loop recordings >Is there room on this list for looping not supported by technology? I'm >thinking for example of Erik Satie's _Vexations_ (a slow piano phrase >repeated 840 times--taking some 17 hours; I participated in a group >performance of this in the early 80s) and Terry Riley's seminal _In C_, >which certainly involves looping although manually played. The technology is really just a tool that makes the musical concept easy to accomplish, without tendonitis, boredom, muscle cramps, bladder infections, and whatever else you may experience during 17 hours of a single piano phrase! Discussing the concept of repetitive elements in music is certainly valid for the list, I think that's one of the things that makes looping so interesting. For me it can be almost trance inducing, and I think its that quality that causes people to enjoy repetively-oriented music whether it be traditional musics from various cultures or the four-on-the-floor house grooves at an all night rave. kim >Glad to see this list is up and running so quickly! > >Kevin Holm-Hudson >Department of Academic Studies and Composition >Northwestern University School of Music >711 Elgin Rd. >Evanston, IL 60208 > >"The mind should wander long before the pitch begins to." -Khh > >******************************************************************************* ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:53:37 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Hello and such >Here's a technique I use with the JamMan to get a more flexible, >improvisational feel from it. When I first got it, I tended to use it to >start a loop, then punch in more layers. But what I found was that >things just got bigger and louder and bigger and louder. It had a very >one-way dynamic. Now, rather than using the looping functions, I usually >prefer to just use its delay function. There are 16 delay feedback >levels, controlled by the knob on the front. Turn the feedback up high >and start looping. At 16, you effectively have infinite repeat. As >things build, you can turn the feedback down and let a loop fade, then >turn it back up and add more to the loop while the older material floats >in the background. This makes for a much more dynamic and rewarding >looping improv, I think. Control over feedback is one of the most fundamental loop techniques. Without it your loops just develop to a certain point, abruptly disappear, and a new loop begins developing. You don't have any continuity, so your loops can't grow and evolve into something else. With the echoplex we give 3 ways to do this; the knob on the front, a jack on the back for a foot pedal, and midi continuous control. Being a guitarist, I use the footpedal method. I couldn't live without it, I vary the feedback constantly to let things disappear at different rates or stay around for a while. I didn't realize the Jamman only gave 16 different levels. That seems sort of limiting to me, but even so I think it can open up a lot of doors for you if you haven't been using it much. Try it out, it definitely opens up the possibilities for loop improvs. >Second, I'm primarily an acoustic guitarist, not electric. I don't play >electric much and I'm not really comfortable on it. Hopefully, I'll be >getting a new acoustic with a pickup soon, and I'll see how that works as >a tone source. I rather like the idea of sending the warm, woody sound >of an acoustic guitar through my effects and seeing what comes out! > One thing that really surprised me with the echoplex is that a very significant number of users are solo acoustic guitarists. I had no idea that that particular use would be so popular. A lot of people have been composing fingerstyle pieces around their echoplexes! So by all means, get that guitar! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 03:59:35 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Hello and such >And as long as I'm talking... I have to admit, as many of us do, I'm >beginning to despair of ever seeing a low-cost, high-function, >musician-oriented looping device on the commercial market. They're all >either too pricy (TC 2290), too limiting (JamMan), poor sound, or (worst) >out of production. But... I think there may be a solution. And that >solution is software. Oberheim might put out a product like this if they get their act together. They've been planning it for a long time. >Ordinary desktop PCs and Macs these days offer 16 bit full duplex sound >recording, huge memories (16 bit stereo sound is about 10mb/minute), and >blazingly fast CPUs. And pleasant input devices, in the form of MIDI >faders, expression pedals, and footswitches, are also commercially >available. So why not just turn a PC into our looping device? It may be >a little impractical for the stage, but it'd be GREAT for home recording >and playing. Performance interaction could occur via any MIDI device, >and new/clever functionality could be added at the software level. A gui >with a keyboard and mouse could be used, rather than the tiny knobs, >buttons and LCD screens that can fit on a 19" rack. Save your loops? >Use the computer's filesystem. Process your loops in real time. Switch >instantly between loops. Reverse them. Extend them. > >I really like this idea. Once you take the hardware issues (digitizing, >user interface) out of it, it's just a matter of throwing CPU and RAM at >the problem until it goes away. MacLoop! Matthias has been evangalizing for this idea for ages. Somebody definitely has to do it. A protools plug in and a standalone would be my choice. >Anyone wanna buy me a new computer so I can write this? Be careful what you wish for Dave..... How are your programming chops? >-dave kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:39:24 -0400 From: "S. Patrick Hickey" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such Get me in on the programming. I'd love the opportunity to learn DSPs and other digital audio stuff well. My knowledge of these toys is only precursory/perfunctory/(perversity?) currently. I've long wanted to avoid all the prefab and give algorithmic control to the musician (me!:). Loops, forwards, backwards, pitch shift, harmony, editing, ... This would be a whole lot more fun than coding C++ client/server foundation programs for metering tool platforms (which is what my current contract is). Pat Hickey (I really will talk about my looping soon!) ***SPH brzrkr@nielsenmedia.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:58:59 -0400 From: "S. Patrick Hickey" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such OK, so I'm a looper. After seeing Robert Fripp several times back in the late 70's early 80's doing his Revox thing, I eventually purchased two Trashcam 3340s and a TEAC Model 2 mixer to do the same. [ I still have these - one 3340s has about 100 hours on it. The other probably has quite a lot more. They are for sale. ] When I stumbled over the JamMan in the Audio Processing (studio gear) section of Sam Ash, I nearly fell off my stool. I bought it, and the memory upgrade. It completely replaces the two tape decks in the Frippertronics setup. I use it with all 32 secs of delay with about 15 regeneration. Sometimes I will invite some friends over, light some candles, and play what I call "a meditation". I should note that the JamMan doing Frippertronics is not identical to the tape setup, because it does not have the noise of the decks. This is both a blessing and a curse: a blessing, because the inputs do not tend to get distorted and overloaded, and the sound remains exactly as placed; a curse, because the decay characteristics are also very clean (the tape sweeps the envelope into the treble more and more with each "loop", and old inputs end up sounding like white noise "waves" coming in and out). I have been frustrated by the JamMan in the loop mode. It just does not have enough memory to get a meaningful set of phrases together to do a complete song. I get about 3 very short segments (ABC), but they are really short. If they don't happen to line up in meter, I cannot duplicate them to force them to line up, because the memory is gone. I'd also like to be able to control the phrase sequencing without having to remember to step to the correct phrase in the midst of a wailing riff (yea, yea, I know, I need a 'puter - more like, I need the *scratch* for a 'puter). The memory for the JamMan looks like special purpose analog memory (I'm guessing). Whatever it is, it's not SIMMs, and it's expensive, and you can't put more than 32 secs into the box. This all points me to the Echoplex. Does it do loops/segments/regen'delays like JamMan? I use the JamMan after my effects box (SGX Nitro) so that the effects get on the loop. Unfortunately, this forces the input levels on the JamMan *really* low. Sometimes I even need to limit the output of the Nitro (which is at the factory setting of 50%, usually). Is this an impedance mismatch? Would a mixer help? LooperrepooL Pat Hickey ***SPH brzrkr@nielsenmedia.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:12:00 -0400 From: fabiok@ca.newbridge.com (Fabio Katz) To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: how much is an echoplex? Hi Clark, I just got an Echoplex from Sam Ash (NYC) for US 559, plus US 100 for the foot pedal. I then bought 4x4Meg SIMMS for US 140 at a local computer store (I live in Ottawa, Canada), to expand the loop time to 198 seconds. Works like a charm :-) Fabio Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:29:11 -0400 From: cwb@platinum.com (Clark Battle) To: Loopers-Delight@slip.net Subject: Re: Echoplex/Jamman >You happy fellow should know that a jaman is around (converted in US >dollars) $1000 here in france, not to mention the price of an echoplex! >Darn it! you said you could have a jam man for 150 bucks! It is going to >drive me crazy! Why not mail order it from an american distributor like Musician's Friend? Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:00:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Kim Flint wrote: > > >Ordinary desktop PCs and Macs these days offer 16 bit full duplex sound > >recording, huge memories (16 bit stereo sound is about 10mb/minute), and > >blazingly fast CPUs. And pleasant input devices, in the form of MIDI > >faders, expression pedals, and footswitches, are also commercially > >available. So why not just turn a PC into our looping device? It may be > >a little impractical for the stage, but it'd be GREAT for home recording > >and playing. Performance interaction could occur via any MIDI device, > >and new/clever functionality could be added at the software level. A gui > >with a keyboard and mouse could be used, rather than the tiny knobs, > >buttons and LCD screens that can fit on a 19" rack. Save your loops? > >Use the computer's filesystem. Process your loops in real time. Switch > >instantly between loops. Reverse them. Extend them. > > > >I really like this idea. Once you take the hardware issues (digitizing, > >user interface) out of it, it's just a matter of throwing CPU and RAM at > >the problem until it goes away. > > MacLoop! Matthias has been evangalizing for this idea for ages. Somebody > definitely has to do it. A protools plug in and a standalone would be my > choice. > > > >Anyone wanna buy me a new computer so I can write this? > > Be careful what you wish for Dave..... How are your programming chops? > Actually, I'm a professional programmer, and I have a pretty good grasp of numeric analysis programming and how audio works. My usual environment is Unix, but I'm sure I could pick up Mac/Windows programming easily enough if I tried. Yeah, I'm seriously considering buying a new Power Mac just to work on this idea. What do y'all think? Would you be willing to use a personal computer for a looping device? Do you HAVE a computer capable of this sort of thing? All the necessary hardware is built into Power Macs and most modern PCs. The whole thing could be sold as software, or even given away. Let's think about this. What sort of features would we like to see? What about the user interface? -dave To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com Date: 12 Sep 1996 9:51:18CST6CDT Subject: Someone in Distress in France sans Looper The person who wrote from France who was distressed due to the $150 price tag on a particular rack effect (he thought it was the JamMan) was actually distressed about this price on the Vortex. The Guitar Center in Minneapolis was blowing out Vortex processors as fast as can be this past month and I got mine for a ridiculous $149.95, brand new in the box with footpedal and manual. Now it's not the JamMan, but it's still very nice and I'll likely be picking either that or the Echoplex up within the next year, now that I find out the Echoplex was available from Sam Ash for $559... Kim: How much memory does the Echoplex ship with? Thanks. Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:23:17 -0400 From: fabiok@ca.newbridge.com (Fabio Katz) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: How much memory does the Echoplex ship with? Hi Todd, I forgot to mention in my previous post that the Echoplex I bought from Sam Ash for $559 came with 1M of RAM (4X256K), which gives you around 12.5 seconds. Fabio Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:03:43 -0400 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Echolplex problems Hello all, Well, I think its about time to bring up some of the problems I've been having with the Oberheim echolplex. I'd like to make sure that I'm not alone, and maybe someone can suggest some solutions. There are two main problems I've run across, one of which has been solved, but I'll mention it anyways, in case someone else is experiencing the same thing: 1. The brother sync (which allows multiple echoplexes to be synced together, and also allows any of the linked units to be the "master") does not work with more than three units, although the manual would lead you to believe that it does. When I tried to sync my two units with my brother's (he's really my brother!) two units, I experienced some weirdness: None of the units would receive the sync pulse from any of the other units. After successfuly syncing every combination of "three unit" setups, and checking my cables, I determined that the individual units were operating OK -- but when 4 units were "brother synced" together, the sync would not work properly. After bringing this to Kim's attention, he discovered a design flaw: it turns out this problem can be solved with a simple resistor swap. (Kim, perhaps you can restate the details of this for others who may be attempting to sync 4 or more units together). 2. I have tried to sync my echoplex to a MIDI sequencer, by programming the sequencer to send out the two record pulses (which define the loop length) via MIDI NOTE ON messages. However, after a few minutes, the echolplex loop begins to "drift" away from the sequencer. How can I solve this problem? Is there a way to keep the echoplex synced to the sequencer indefinetly. (I have successfully gotten past this by syncing the sequencer off the echoplex, but this does not suit my purposes as well). 3. I guess I should mention another minor bug, when using the brother sync: Often the echolplexes do not Power ON correctly, when connected to other units via the brother sync. In this case, I need to unplug all the brother sync cables, power on the units, then plug the brother sync cables back in. 4. I guess I would also like to take this opportunity to perform a little "Oberheim bashing": While the echoplex units are quite remarkable, and bugs are to be expected from such new technology, I am quite unsatisfied with Oberheim's customer service. They do not answer their phones. Many times they have not returned my calls. They have denied that these bugs exist. My brother and I sent in our units months ago, to be upgraded, and we haven't heard one word from them regarding their status -- they won't return our calls! (for all I know, $2000 worth of out equipment was lost in the mail!). Anyways, enough about that. My goal isn't really to bash Oberheim -- but I want to make my experiences known. By the way, this last item does not apply to my dealings with Kim. He has been quite helpful, and I really appreciate his service! Keep on loopin'! - Chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:36:11 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Echolplex problems >1. The brother sync (which allows multiple echoplexes to be synced >together, and also allows any of the linked units to be the "master") does >not work with more than three units, although the manual would lead you to >believe that it does. When I tried to sync my two units with my brother's >(he's really my brother!) two units, I experienced some weirdness: None of >the units would receive the sync pulse from any of the other units. After >successfuly syncing every combination of "three unit" setups, and checking >my cables, I determined that the individual units were operating OK -- but >when 4 units were "brother synced" together, the sync would not work >properly. After bringing this to Kim's attention, he discovered a design >flaw: it turns out this problem can be solved with a simple resistor swap. >(Kim, perhaps you can restate the details of this for others who may be >attempting to sync 4 or more units together). This is a simple resistor swap. I don't have time to explain it now, this evening I'll write it up for you all. It should be on the web site. And thanks to chris for finding this problem! >2. I have tried to sync my echoplex to a MIDI sequencer, by programming >the sequencer to send out the two record pulses (which define the loop >length) via MIDI NOTE ON messages. However, after a few minutes, the >echolplex loop begins to "drift" away from the sequencer. How can I solve >this problem? Is there a way to keep the echoplex synced to the sequencer >indefinetly. > >(I have successfully gotten past this by syncing the sequencer off the >echoplex, but this does not suit my purposes as well). the answer here is to use midi clock for syncing. It does work in the current shipping version, although the upgrade that is not yet shipping has made huge improvements in this area. >3. I guess I should mention another minor bug, when using the brother >sync: Often the echolplexes do not Power ON correctly, when connected to >other units via the brother sync. In this case, I need to unplug all the >brother sync cables, power on the units, then plug the brother sync cables >back in. Is one or all of your units pretty old? I think the first 50-100 were really prone to this. New ones are less so. Shortly before I quit g-wiz I came up with a design improvement that totally solves these problems. I'm pretty sure it is not part of the current fab. Its a bit more complicated than a resistor swap, but I'd be happy to explain it. Just promise you won't all electrocute yourselves! >4. I guess I would also like to take this opportunity to perform a little >"Oberheim bashing": While the echoplex units are quite remarkable, and >bugs are to be expected from such new technology, I am quite unsatisfied >with Oberheim's customer service. They do not answer their phones. Many >times they have not returned my calls. They have denied that these bugs >exist. My brother and I sent in our units months ago, to be upgraded, and >we haven't heard one word from them regarding their status -- they won't >return our calls! (for all I know, $2000 worth of out equipment was lost >in the mail!). Anyways, enough about that. My goal isn't really to bash >Oberheim -- but I want to make my experiences known. > >By the way, this last item does not apply to my dealings with Kim. He has >been quite helpful, and I really appreciate his service! Oberheim's main problem is a lack of resources. (Their other biggest problem is being part of Gibson, but I'll leave some of those tales for another time...) I have strong disagreements with their tendency to then prioritize things so that customers like you suffer in this way. I mean, you bought 5 echoplexes! They should be treating you like a king. -kim >Keep on loopin'! > >- Chris > > >--------------------------------------- >Chris Chovit >cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov >--------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:21:56 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Someone in Distress in France sans Looper >The person who wrote from France who was distressed due to >the $150 price tag on a particular rack effect (he thought >it was the JamMan) was actually distressed about this price >on the Vortex. > >The Guitar Center in Minneapolis was blowing out Vortex >processors as fast as can be this past month and I got >mine for a ridiculous $149.95, brand new in the box with >footpedal and manual. > >Now it's not the JamMan, but it's still very nice and I'll >likely be picking either that or the Echoplex up within >the next year, now that I find out the Echoplex was available >from Sam Ash for $559... > >Kim: How much memory does the Echoplex ship with? > >Thanks. It ships with 4 256KB simms, which gives you 12.5 seconds. It has four simm slots that take 30 pin simms, in pairs. You get about 12.5 seconds per MB you put in, so maxing out with 4 4MB simms at 200 seconds. Since memory is so cheap now, you can upgrade to the full 200 seconds for about $120-$140. I'd highly recommend the memory increase. A lot of echoplex functions become much more useful with greater memory. Undo of overdubs, multiple loops, multiply, etc. It really gives you much broader looping possibilities, far more than just 200 second loops. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:14:00 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Echoplex/Jamman >>You happy fellow should know that a jaman is around (converted in US >>dollars) $1000 here in france, not to mention the price of an echoplex! >>Darn it! you said you could have a jam man for 150 bucks! It is going to >>drive me crazy! > >Why not mail order it from an american distributor like Musician's >Friend? A lot of American music instrument manufacturers have had trouble with importing things to Europe lately, because CE approvals can be an expensive process. Most of these companies are small and have a tough time finding the money to pay for emissions scans, the engineering talent to design products that pass, and the resources to completely redo the thing so that it can be exported to Europe. We had this problem with the Echoplex. Since I'm not involved in that anymore, I don't know if they have actually passed CE and are allowed to sell it in Europe yet. That's one reason why these things are so expensive there. I'm not sure if Sam Ash or other American distributors can sell overseas. They would probably get in trouble with the manufacturers since they would be competing with European distributors. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:01:19 -0400 From: fabiok@ca.newbridge.com (Fabio Katz) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Hi Loopists! Hi Loopists! It's great to be part of this list! I just got the Echoplex last Friday, and a couple of days later (thanks Teed!) I learned about this list, very good timing indeed! Thanks Kim for starting the list, and everybody for your contributions. Brief history of my looping life (it really starts with overdubs...): - First time I heard of somebody playing more than one part was when Paul McCartney released his first solo album (I think he plays all instruments). - As soon as I could get hold of two cheap cassette recorders, I did some overdubs by playing back on one and recording through the mike on the other, adding guitar, voice and percussion. Not really looping, but lots of fun, terrible sound. - I built myself a simple stereo mixer, and using two stereo tape decks I did stereo overdubs adding electric guitar and some keyboard. Better sound, still lots of work. - I got a 4 track and did lots of experiments, adding a synthesizer to the list of instruments. - I got into MIDI and synced the sequencer to the 4 track to mix 3 real tracks and many virtual tracks on the synthesizer. More convenient, good sound, but I wanted to play live. I've played live along with tapes a couple of times, but I enjoy it more when all the sound is created right there. - In a duo situation (Stick/guitar - guitar/didgeridoo) I've been using the 2 seconds delay loop in the Boss SE-50. Very limited but great tool to try live loops. I've used it in two ways: 1. Overdub a rich rythmic pattern as background for solos (max feedback) 2. Set to repeat once, I alternate playing background and solo every other 2 seconds, it sounds like two people and it changes all the time. - Since last Friday I've used the Echoplex for quite a few hours. I find it opens many possibilities for practising, arranging, composing, soloing, and of course playing live. I'm looking forward to exchanging ideas with all of you on ways of using looping machines, and anything specific to the Echoplex, which exceeds my expectations so far. Fabio Katz Ottawa, Canada Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:37:31 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Echolplex problems >>4. I guess I would also like to take this opportunity to perform a little >>"Oberheim bashing": While the echoplex units are quite remarkable, and >>bugs are to be expected from such new technology, I am quite unsatisfied >>with Oberheim's customer service. They do not answer their phones. Many >>times they have not returned my calls. They have denied that these bugs >>exist. My brother and I sent in our units months ago, to be upgraded, and >>we haven't heard one word from them regarding their status -- they won't >>return our calls! (for all I know, $2000 worth of out equipment was lost >>in the mail!). Anyways, enough about that. My goal isn't really to bash >>Oberheim -- but I want to make my experiences known. >> >>By the way, this last item does not apply to my dealings with Kim. He has >>been quite helpful, and I really appreciate his service! > >Oberheim's main problem is a lack of resources. (Their other biggest >problem is being part of Gibson, but I'll leave some of those tales for >another time...) I have strong disagreements with their tendency to then >prioritize things so that customers like you suffer in this way. I mean, >you bought 5 echoplexes! They should be treating you like a king. > > >-kim > Just thought of another idea for you here. Call Gibson's customer service line about the problem. They are much more responsive, and are actually reasonably good as a customer service team. I think the number is 1-800-4-GIBSON. It should be on their web site, www.gibson.com. kim ___________________________________ Kim Flint OEM Engineering Chromatic Research 408-752-9284 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:16:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unidentified subject! studio seventeen productions writes: >Nice to be part of the start of a list instead of joing three years into it! > >Great suggestion about compiling lists of important loop >recordings......indeed No Pussyfooting, Evening Star.....eno's Discreet Music... If you're going to include Discreet Music (which wasn't a performed looped piece), you should also include the Reich pieces that inspired it and the Fripp/Eno stuff, such as "It's Gonna Rain". Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:37:12 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: Echolplex problems Kim, >the answer here is to use midi clock for syncing. It does work in the >current shipping version, although the upgrade that is not yet shipping has >made huge improvements in this area. Does this only work for loops that are already recorded, or can I use the MIDI clock to create new loops that sync with the sequencer, as well? > >Is one or all of your units pretty old? I think the first 50-100 were >really prone to this. New ones are less so. Shortly before I quit g-wiz I >came up with a design improvement that totally solves these problems. I'm >pretty sure it is not part of the current fab. Its a bit more complicated >than a resistor swap, but I'd be happy to explain it. Just promise you >won't all electrocute yourselves! Yes, the units were purchased soon after they came out. Please send the procedure when you get a chance. Oberheim has my units right now, anyways, so there's no hurry...Thanks! - Chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:44:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unidentified subject! >I am interested in learning some of the techniques people are using to >save, and possibly edit loops, after the fact. I have a Macintosh -- are >there some good (and inexpensive) digital editors out there for the Mac? For multitrack stuff, Deck 2 ($299) works pretty well. It's not perfect, but it sure beats the hell out of tape. I recently got Logic Audio to replace it since it's allegedly the best thing available for HD recording and MIDI). I haven't gotten it installed yet, but stay tuned. LA is more like $600. Depending on how it goes, I may be selling my copy of Deck. Both support external software effects plugins, from Waves, et. al. Stuff like compressor/limiters, EQ, reverb, etc, etc. Both are controllable by various external fader boxes via MIDI. I recently picked up a used Peavey, but again haven't tried it yet. The standard here seems to be the JL Cooper boxes. All of these have faders and trasport controls. The more expensive ones have better, longthrow faders (100mm), but are close to $1k. That's a lot of dough for a box that does nothing but send MIDI messages, IMO. Then there's the Mackie automated mixer solution. I doubt that you can run it simultaneously with hard disk recording software. Finally, if you want fast editing of two tracks, try Bias Peak. I bought it for around $300 for editing tracks for CD-R. It's super fast for two track editing. All these folks have web pages. Deck: http://www.macromedia.com/software/sound/index.html Logic: http://www.emagic.de Peak: http://www.bias-inc.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com Date: 12 Sep 1996 17:52:45CST6CDT Subject: Moo. Hey folks: Here's some of the recordings that got me into looping big time: Steve Tibbets: Safe Journey The only recording I've ever heard where an electric guitar (or acoustic) was made to hum like a frigidaire refrigerator. Amazing stuff, especially the last track "Going Somewhere". One of my all-time favorites. Tons of loops and delay / harmonizer work here, almost hallucinogenic. The perfect soundtrack for a cross-country journey by night (and why not? I used this to travel to Toronto by night from Minneapolis on an all-night roadtrip to see T. Dream once...) Mr. David Torn: Polytown Looping in a power trio context. Heady metal indeed. I saw this band on the tour they did and Dave totally destroyed the concept that effects take the balls and raw edge off your music: his guitar tone was like a molten gold switchblade slicing through my cerebrum. And he actually made his guitar sound like water rushing through sewer piping at one point which made me laugh out loud. A real nice guy, too, as it turns out. Robert Fripp: 1999, Live in Argentina: The first three tracks are some of the most amazingly dense and monolithic yet emotionally affecting music I've heard yet, yet scary in an unknowable way. "The best way I know to make a hell of a lot of noise with one guitar." Indeed. See also "Threnody for Souls in Torment" off the RFSQ CD for the scariest dose of looping on the planet. I won't get into Eno now, though I could go on for a bit. Kiss - Love Gun Just kidding. Megadeth - Loop Bootleg Loops for hours. Also just kidding. I'll shut up now. Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:19:04 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: Moo. Hey, I appreciate the reccomendations for musics that use looping. I'm always interested in hearing new stuff. Here's a couple of the key albums that got me into the loops: Ash Ra -- Inventions for Electric Guitar: Most of the Ash Ra (and Manuel Gottshing's solo stuff) uses looping -- it has a Tangerine Dream - like quality, but is much more guitar-oriented (esp. Inventions for E.G.). He gets really sweet guitar tones (I think he mainly used a Gibson SG) and has some nice anolog key textures. And considering this one is from ~1971 (I think), he was surely one of the pioneers of looping. I'm not sure if he actually used looping devices, though. He might have just multitracked it, but the music is quite repetitive. If you like this one, try "Blackouts", "Walking the Desert", and Gottshing's "Dream & Desire" Steve Reich - Music for 16 Musicians: I'm sure many of you put this album on a pedastal. And even though the entire piece (~an hour long?) is entirely performed, Reich's use of repetition vs. change is remarkable. He often employs a technique of bringing in a repeating melody, one note at time (and not necessarily in order), repeating each step 4 times, until the whole meoldy is there, then takes away one note at a time until the melody is gone. This, all the while other melodies are being formed and taken away. He'll have several meoldies going on at once, entertwining with each other, and at different "phases" of their compositional "lifetime". Reich's "Music for Mallet Instruments" really moves me too. Enjoy! - Chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:37:55 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Boomerang Just wnated to mention to anyone who hasn't seen it yet that the Boomerang phrase sampler is reviewed in the current ish of Guitar Player magazine (with Los Lobos on the cover). Check it out. --Andre Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:40:27 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Vortex? All of this talk about Vortex units at rock-bottom prices has piqued my interest, so would someone be willing to give a more in-depth account of the thing? More specifically, what exactly can it do, how does it compare to other single-rack-space units, how's the MIDI implementation, etc... One personal interest question: How slow can the sweep rate of pitch-modulation effects (i.e. phasing etc) be set? Thanks in advance, and sorry if this is too off-topical for the list. --Andre Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:01:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Malone To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Memory prices I was wondering what prices you all have encountered for the JamMan upgrade. I know memory prices are dipping low, but Lexicon's prices remain high. Any suggestions? Sean Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:17:21 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: Memory prices >I was wondering what prices you all have encountered for the JamMan >upgrade. I know memory prices are dipping low, but Lexicon's prices remain >high. Any suggestions? I picked up the memory (full-upgrade) via mail order for ~$120 (over a year ago -- they might be cheaper now). I don't remember the name of the company, but Lexicon referred me to them, and I remember that they were located in Texas. (Sorry for the lack of info -- but one call to Lexicon should get you in the right direction). Also, I picked up an Echoplex (over a year ago) through Manny's Mailbox (New York) for $479 (+ $70 for the foot pedal) THis was the best price I found at the time, but I haven't shopped for them recently. - Chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:11:54 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: studio seventeen productions Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! At 03:16 PM 9/12/96 -0700, you wrote: >studio seventeen productions writes: >>Nice to be part of the start of a list instead of joing three years into it! >> >>Great suggestion about compiling lists of important loop >>recordings......indeed No Pussyfooting, Evening Star.....eno's Discreet Music... > RAY PECK THEN WROTE: >If you're going to include Discreet Music (which wasn't a performed >looped piece), you should also include the Reich pieces that inspired >it and the Fripp/Eno stuff, such as "It's Gonna Rain". > AND THEN dave at studio seventeen said: they SHOULD be included. someone else mentioned mechanically performed "loop" pieces, and sonically they are nearly indistinguishable from "electronically" created (be they tape or digital). a perfect example is the long piece on God Save The King/Robert Fripp (sorry title escapes me momentarily) wherein RF performs MANUAL repetition of the phrase for something like sixteen minutes straight. It SOUNDS like a loop, but it's not. As Kim mentioned, the fascination is in REPETITION (and the way the ear perceives different permutations as the loop repeats)...the method of production should be considered IRREVELANT to the piece as music, but RELEVANT to us as a group exploring that rather large subject: looping. I for one am ignorant of some of these early sources (Reich is mostly a name only to me) and would appreciate their works: a) being included on the compilation lists b) anyone who is familiar with the material: make recommendations about the best pieces to seek out and hear c) put some of them up as sound samples (perhaps on the page) along with their more modern companions let's get as factual of a history as possible. I have heard Fripp say that the two tape deck method used by eno was developed almost concurrently as several different places around the globe (or words to that effect) and so I would think that there is no ONE FOUNDER of the tape-deck to tape-deck methodology. all for now, cheers dave lead me in with a count of seventeen... Mr. Blint Consequences/Godley & Creme visit: http:www.adnc.com/web/ambient/index.html seventeen: the ambient music page Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:37:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such >MacLoop! Matthias has been evangalizing for this idea for ages. Somebody >definitely has to do it. A protools plug in and a standalone would be my >choice. Way too expensive. I've been thinking more along the lines of Deck or Logic Audio. The machines are getting fast enough that one doesn't necessarily need to drop $10k on ProTools hardware. If people balk at $900 for an Echoplex, do you think they're gonna drop $15k for a machine and ProTools?!? BTW, Bias Peak on the Mac has some "automatically loop this think I'm recording" features built in. It's a shame that they only support two stereo tracks. Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:38:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such "S. Patrick Hickey" writes: >Get me in on the programming. I'd love the opportunity to learn DSPs and >other digital audio stuff well. My knowledge of these toys is only >precursory/perfunctory/(perversity?) currently. I've long wanted to >avoid all the prefab and give algorithmic control to the musician (me!:). >Loops, forwards, backwards, pitch shift, harmony, editing, ... I wonder if cmusic could be bent to the task. My understanding is that you can now do realtime stuff with cmusic on the Mac. Since it's all algorithmic, and the sources are available, this could be a very good foundation. Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:53:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such >Actually, I'm a professional programmer, and I have a pretty good grasp >of numeric analysis programming and how audio works. My usual >environment is Unix, but I'm sure I could pick up Mac/Windows programming >easily enough if I tried. Me too. >Yeah, I'm seriously considering buying a new Power Mac just to work on >this idea. What do y'all think? Would you be willing to use a personal >computer for a looping device? Do you HAVE a computer capable of this >sort of thing? All the necessary hardware is built into Power Macs and >most modern PCs. The whole thing could be sold as software, or even >given away. I've been thinking about doing this, myself. I have a 6100/60, and will soon buy something newer (180 MHz PowerComputing machine?) for running Deck on. I'd also like to write a virtual analogue synth (patchable) that would work with it. >Let's think about this. What sort of features would we like to see? >What about the user interface? It should be able to work with the upcoming Korg audio card, 'cause the Mac audio inputs are only around 70 db s/n. Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:55:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! >I for one am ignorant of some of these early sources (Reich is mostly a name >only to me) and would appreciate their works: Well, gee. Eno has stated that the earliest (?) tape loop Reich piece was a major inspiration. It's just been re-released on Elektra/Nonesuch 9 79169-2, "Early Works". Be cautioned that they're not his most listenable pieces. Probably my favorite Reich things are Music for 18 Musicians (ECM 1129) and Different Trains/Electric Counterpoint (Elektra 9 79176-2). Terry Riley is also highly recommended. I can't stand Glass: I feel that all his pieces sound the same. That's probably why he's the most popular of the "minimalists". >let's get as factual of a history as possible. I have heard Fripp say that >the two tape deck method used by eno was developed almost concurrently as >several different places around the globe (or words to that effect) and so I >would think that there is no ONE FOUNDER of the tape-deck to tape-deck >methodology. I have a recording, which I made myself, of Eno discussing "It's Gonna Rain", and explaining that that's where he got the idea, which was passed on to Fripp. Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:56:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such Here's a meessage that I send to the Torn list a while back: From: rpeck@pure.com (Ray Peck) Subject: Door X, Issue 67 ! >>but am wondering if anybody knows of any sort of looping device (besides the >>multiple tape recorders >>which I have unfortunately had to resort to) which can record multiple loops OF >>DIFFERENT LENGTHS >>and then play these back simultaneously. I've been thinking about this since seeing DT last year in SF. I was thinking that if I were to try this sort of thing myself (which I'm far off from doing!), I'd want a Mac-based system that let me do multiple tracks, each with different loop times, and to be able to change them on the fly. Think of this sort of thing. Sorry if it doesn't make sense: it's kinda hard to explain. Mac. Screen. Panel of momentary and on/off footswitches and pedals (preferably with giant backlight LCD displays on each one that the software could program to say something meaningful). To start out a track, tap out a few beats on a footswitch. The system syncs, and shows a graphical metronome. Record the first track, tapping another switch for the beginning and end of the loop. You could immediately start recording the next loop (or wait 'till the next go-around), and could specify the length of the loop relative to the first one with a couple switches, by specifying a rational ratio between the lengths. Imagine two "increase the factional part" switches. numerator --------- denominator 1 tap gives you a second loop 1/2 or 2/1 as long, three taps gives you 2/3 or 3/2, etc. You could easily make loops that are 7/8 as long, or whaever, to get really interesting repeating patterns (cf. "Discipline"). The system would show you the waveform of what you've played, like Deck or any other digital audio recording SW does, so you could see what you were doing. You could automate effects, pans, level envelopes, or whatever, on the fly with footpedals. You could also fade loops in and out with pedals. The system could also use spare time, if it has any, to do pitch-to-sheet music conversion so you could *really* see what you were doing. A PowerMac could do all this with no additional hardware (although you might want a Digidesign AudioMedia card for better a/d d/a). Deck will do 8 tracks off of the hard disk on the slowest PowerMac (my 6100/60). Should be easy to do tons of tracks out of DRAM. Now. . . Would anyone buy it? Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:55:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Vortex? I don't think you can compare the Vortex directly to any other multi-effect in its price range. All the boxes coming from companies like ART and Digitech are basically a bunch of generic effects in series. Compression feeds distortion, feeds chorus, feeds delay, feeds reverb, blah blah blah. The Vortex is completely different. The "effects" are actually sets of controls for various points in complex programs. Internal feedback loops pass the signal in various patterns through the modulators and delays. It also has an envelope follower that controls key parts of each program. And an assignable expression pedal input can be used to control any parameter. As far as MIDI goes, it has none at all. If you're MIDI dependent, forget it. Controls consist of two stereo plugs for footswitches (a rather flimsy dual switch is included, that I usually assign to tap and A/B switching), and another input for an expression pedal. But like I said, it's the most MUSICAL multi-effect I've ever used. Sound quality is phenomenal, better than any reasonably-priced digital device I've heard. And the effects are mostly musically useful (as well as a few really weird ones). If you can get one cheap, I'd highly recommend it. These days, the Vortex is pretty much the only effect I use. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.leepfrog.com */ -Charles Fort /* http://www.leepfrog.com/~dstagner */ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:18:14 -0700 (PDT) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: finley@ecst.csuchico.edu (Matthew F. McCabe) Subject: Vortex still available for $149.00 Just thought I'd let everyone know that the Lexicon Vortex is still available from Guitar Center for 149 bucks....and they will ship. I tried to buy one from an out of state store in order to avoid paying sales tax...didn't work because there's a Guitar Center here. Alas. Matt ------------------------------------------------------------ King Never http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~finley/kingnever.html ------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew F. McCabe Able Cain King Never Marathon Records