Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 03:01:22 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Technohoploops? Chris wrote: >No, I haven't tried to control two machines simultaneously. I would like >to create a mutiple-unit interface, using Opcode's MAX. I would like to >build it in a modular fashion, so as to keep the interface flexible (ie. >easy to change/upgrade). I imagine I will start creating basic functions >(record, overdub, undo, etc.) which works on multiple units. Then, I can I used Max for testing all the midi functions during the echoplex developmet. The patch is a bit messy, but it is capable of executing all of the midi stuff. You could easily lift pieces of it out to make sub-patches for what you are talking about here. Want it? I'd be interested in any Max patches you do. >create function sequences -- [for example, one push of a button could start >one unit looping, the next push of a button could both: end that loop and >start a new one, etc. -- (the Jam Man has this "phrasing" cabability, but >it is an "un-undo-able" overdub)] I think this was just an oversight for us on the Echoplex. We added this for the unavailable upgrade, and its a really cool function. One of my favorites. >Another capability I would like to have is to be able to switch between >loops (within one unit) on multiple units. For example, assume I have two >loops in each of 4 units, and all 4 units are currently playing their >respective loop #1's. Then, one push of a button could make (up to) all 4 >units switch to their loop #2's -- on the beat! In this way, I could >create different sections of a "song" (verse/chorus, a/b/c, etc) and be >able to switch between them with one push of a button. My goal is to be >able to create simple (James-Brown-like) arrangements -- on the fly -- and >"orchestrate" them while jamming on top of them. You can do this with midi on the echoplex pretty easily. Use the loop triggering functions, so sending the appropriate midi note switches directly to the loop you want to go to. (So you can jump directly from loop 2 to loop 8, say.) Probably you'd want to have each 'plex on a different midi channel, and send the note to all those channels. You could probably put them all on the same channel, I guess, if you always expected them to do the same thing. You could even set them to all respond to different sets of midi notes when switching loops and play them as chords on a keyboard. Two cool things about this. One is velocity sensitivity, so you could have a loop play quieter or louder. In your James Brown synario, you could have the "band" drop way down for those funky quiet bits he does, even dropping some instruments out altogether. (uh HUH!) Then give yourself eight with the mute-insert stuttering effect. (Yeah!) And kick the next section at full bore maxi-funk by switching loops wth velocity at 127. (uh GET on UP-uh!) The other cool thing is the SwitchQuant, which quantizes your loop switches so they happen right on the JB-approved one. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 04:10:01 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: MacLOOP >On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Matthias wrote: > >> Can anyone understand why under the zillion models of Apple, there is none >> made for the musician, who always was the most faithfull mac client? >> It would be very easy to do a 19" rack version with a LCD screen for stage >> and a ordinary monitor for home! >> All the musicians and studios and probably even some industries would want >> that model! and Dave then said: >I definitely concur. I'm used to seeing PCs in industrial-strength >rackmount cases, and it amazes me that the same isn't available for >the Macintosh. Maybe one of the new clone makers will pursue this >market. Reliable rackmount VGA monitors are available, as are robust >pointing devices. All that really needs to change is the case. Well us musicians are standing behind the desktop publishing industry and the film editing industry in the Apple complaint line. They never seemed to address the needs of their most loyal customers very well. Maybe things are finally changing, but then how many times has that been said? ah well.... > >> Well Dave, if you really do it, I will be very happy! >> - One thing would be a shareware version, that does the basic for everyone >> to play. Go ahead. > >Well, if I do this, I'll either give it away, or find some >distribution channel to sell it. Those of you in the audio industry, >do you think a major vendor might pick up something like this and >redistribute it? I'm a programmer by nature, which is the logical >complement of marketing. :} Oh sure! You'll be offered a very generous royalty with a handsome initial payment. A team of their finest product specialists will be assigned to develop a solid marketing strategy, which will include a major worldwide marketing campaign in all the finest publications. The sales force will relish the opportunity to sell a new product that is more complicated than a can opener and actually requires them to explain something to music store buyers. Glowing reviews will appear. Major artists will be actively courted for endorsements. The superb accounting department will perfectly track sales, provide you with figures, and always pay the correct royalty amount on time. You'll be sitting pretty in no time! Gee, that wasn't too sarcastic was it? As if I wasn't cynical enough about this industry, I've been hanging out with Tom Oberheim lately. I'm learning from the master..... >in point. Or maybe the reality is that we're such a tiny subculture >that there simply isn't a real market for such tools. :/ Not that tiny, really. Akai and Roland are on to something with the phrase samplers they've got for dj's and techno producers. Those things are loopers, with a different sort of interface and some different functionality. (they are pretty cool too) The trouble is that no one has figured out how to cross into all the places where loopers exist. Gibson/oberheim only know how to sell to guitar players, Lexicon sells to recording studios, Roland and akai to synth players. Loopers are in all those places and more..... >An interesting aside... do you think of your looping device(s) as an >effect, or as an instrument? For me, the JamMan and Vortex are >instruments in and of themselves, not just processing for my guitar. >They're just instruments that need an outside tone source. > >-dave > Its an instrument!!!!!! And like any good instrument, it allows the beginner to have a good time with just a few basics. Record a loop and play along with it. Anyone can do it and have a good time. Just like anyone can learn a couple of open chords on guitar and have a good time playing a few simple songs. But then, like the guitar, you can take it to much greater depth, expand your technique, and really develop your own musical voice with it. I really feel like these are the early days for a great new instrument, and we are the ones defining a vocabulary for the future. Its great to see all the conversation going on here, we've started kicking the pace up a notch or two! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 04:17:06 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Moo. >Here's one we seem to have forgotten: > >Bill Frisell. Bill has used short spontaneous loops as >ambiance in a live setting for years. I believe he uses >a custom device with 16 seconds of infinite delay. During >a piece he samples a bit of something, speeds it up, slows >it down, and mangles it. Then, he'll fade in the loop at >some opportune time in the performance. There is plenty >of this on his album _Power Tools_. He shares that drunken, >warped sound with Torn but in a different way. Bill F. >doesnt use a whammy bar, all his warping is done by bending >the neck as he plays. He's got killer jazz chops too. My friend, fellow former g-wizzer, and tomorrow's jam partner, Matt Wright, is also a frisell fanatic. He actually claims to own all of his recordings.... Anyway, he suggests the following Frisell tracks: >Well I can make one contribution. A use of the electro-harmonix 16 second >delay: Bill Frisell. You can hear it on the Frisell/Driscoll/Baron Live >CD, especially the intro to "No Moe". kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:17:26 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Technohoploops? kim, howdy! I'm now at iEAR studying with xavier chabot(ircam director for 5-6 years) we're doing a ton of stuff with max. So, I'd be interested in your max patches. collier Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 18:56:56 0500 From: David Kirkdorffer To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: (no subject) Is there any possibility of creating a digest of the loopers delight e-mail group that could come out once or twice a week? david kirkdorffer echoplex user Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:07:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such >And by "standalone", I meant something like Deck, same as you're talking >about. A cheap software app that takes advantage of the audio and >processing in the pc. Problem with that, though, is you only have a stereo >input so you can't record multiple sources into different loops at once. >And you have a crappy multimedia codec digitizing the audio. The other >problem is that most sound cards don't let you record and play back at the >same time. Korg is releasing a PCI card for the Mac, which will work with Deck, that has (as I recall) 12 ins/outs. Mosey over to the Deck list to read the guy from Macromedia flogging it. Price is right (a bit more than the Digi stereo Audiomedia card). In fact, let's see what I can dig up from the archives. . . >The Korg 1212 I/O card offers analog stereo, S/PDIF, and ADAT optical - a >total of 12 channels of I/O. All of which can be used simultaneously or in >any combination. > >Hank H. >Don't know if this is anywhere else, but here is my current blurb: > >Korg 1212 I/O > >PCI bus audio card >Adat optical in and out (16 bit) >S/PDIF in and out (16 or 20 bit) >Analog in and out (16 bit) >Word Clock in and out >Adat sync in >Bundled with Macromedia's Deck II multitrack recording software > >* The 1212 I/O features 12 independent record and playback channels - > 8 Adat, 2 S/PDIF, and 2 Analog. Deck will allow recording and playback > using all 12 channels. > >* Any input channel can be routed to any output channel. > > This means, for instance, that you can bring in signals from the Adat > input, send them out S/PDIF for processing, bring them back in via > S/PDIF, and then send them back to the Adat. > >* The 1212 I/O's Adat sync in port allows the 1212 I/O to synchronize > playback with an Adat system, acting essentially as another Adat. Time > code can be derived from this input, allowing programs within the > computer (such as Deck II) to sync to an Adat system without need for a > BRC. The 1212 I/O will also work well in combination with the BRC. > >* The Korg DRS series product line also includes two rack-mount > Adat-to-analog interfaces. The 880 D/A is an 8-channel D/A, converting > the Adat input to 8 analog outputs; the 880 A/D is an 8-channel A/D, > converting 8 analog inputs to Adat output. > > By connecting these interfaces to the 1212 I/O's Adat input and output, > you can add 8 additional analog inputs and/or outputs, for a total > of 10 analog inputs and 10 analog outputs. (By using additional analog > converters for the S/PDIF channels, one could bring all 12 channels out > to analog, if desired.) > > These interfaces do not add additional channels; they merely mirror the > Adat channels to analog inputs and outputs. The upper limit on i/o > remains constant: 12 channels in, 12 channels out. > > Each interface includes both Adat input and output, allowing them to > be used within the Adat optical loop. This means that you don't need to > re-patch to switch between analog and Adat optical i/o; the same 8 > channels are mirrored to both analog and Adat formats. >Using a pc/mac for looping is really something that would only apply to >studio use, though. Not many people are willing to lug their computer to >rehearsals, gigs and on tours. Its a big risk, and expensive to do it >safely. The interface could be made so much more powerful, that it's worth thinking seriously about. All we need is a PCMCIA I/O card. Powerbook 5300s are ~1700 in color. That would not be unreasonable at all. >One thing that concerns me, design wise, is the real-time performance of >the mac/pc while its handling lots of I/O, audio processing, and disk >accesses. The reaction time is critical in looping, and desktop os's are >not designed for this. Deck works pretty darn well. Peeople with fast machines are going 16+ tracks of 44.1 audio, with mixing and EQ and effects. Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:24:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Hello and such >I know EXACTLY what you're talking about; I want to do the same thing. >The way I see it, this program should be able to run multiple loops >simultaneously, and either mix them together or switch back and forth >betwen them. If each loop is an independent entity from the mixer, >then loop length is arbitrary. New loops could be created as copies >of old loops, or as rational relations to other loops (1/3, 2x, etc), >or with their own arbitrary length. EXACTLY! >The sound source should be irrelevant. It should be able to get sound >off the stock Mac inputs, Digidesign, Turtle Beach, or Korg cards, or >any standard-format sound files off the disk. It should also be able >to save your loops in standard audio formats, as well as a custom >format for the system (collections of loops, a set of performance >notes attached, etc). Right. Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:09:46 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: (no subject) >Is there any possibility of creating a digest of the loopers delight >e-mail group that could come out once or twice a week? > >david kirkdorffer >echoplex user Yes, I'm going to do that. I was going to set that up this weekend, but looks like i've run out of time. Hopefully real soon..... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:42:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Unidentified subject! >> Maybe I had a bad machine? Or it is not serious really? > >I'm thinking that's what's happening here, either that or you overdrove the >signal so that it distorted in some way or maybe the tape wasn't up to it. >You have to use high quality tapes. I'd get your deck checked out. No, this is fairly common. It's head-switching noise. Some machines are worse than others. Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:38:41 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: Moo. sorry, why "Moo"? (not in my dictionary) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:38:34 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: MacLOOP >Its an instrument!!!!!! And like any good instrument, it allows the >beginner to have a good time with just a few basics. Record a loop and play >along with it. Anyone can do it and have a good time. Just like anyone can >learn a couple of open chords on guitar and have a good time playing a few >simple songs. But then, like the guitar, you can take it to much greater >depth, expand your technique, and really develop your own musical voice >with it. I really feel like these are the early days for a great new >instrument, and we are the ones defining a vocabulary for the future. Its >great to see all the conversation going on here, we've started kicking the >pace up a notch or two! Great speach, Kim! Matthias Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:54:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! Matthias writes: >Ray Peck said: > >>I have a recording, which I made myself, of Eno discussing "It's Gonna >>Rain", and explaining that that's where he got the idea, which was >>passed on to Fripp. > >What means "the idea" in this case? The tape loop as a compositional device. >When I was about 8 years old, I "discovered" the capability of fathers tape >machine to create echoes. I had a great shock, in fact, because it was an >increasing one. I did this, too, with a reel-to-reel when I was about 15. I had a Sequential Circuits Pro 1 which has a sequencer in it. The sequence can be transposed with the keyboard. I would crank the reverb feedback up as close as I could get to unity, set the sequence speed as close as I could get to some multiple of the delay length, and bliss out. Another neat trick was that you could use one oscillator as an LFO, and could set both LFOs on square or pulse shapes. I'd set them both to modify the oscillator's frequency by, say, minor thirds, and bliss out once again, while the LFOs slowly went out of phase. Lots of other tricks too. I ran across a reel with some of this stuff the other day. Neat memories. >I certainly was influenced a lot by Pink Floyd that used echo as rithmic >base, and so was Eno, maybe... Yeah, Roger used to use a slap-back echo, like on "Careful w/ that Axe". >So your recording is very interesting. Would you mind to write down the >dedicated part so we can post it? I'll try to get to it. Eno's said this on a number of occasions. I might have an audio version on-line. BTW, it's be (far) easier for me to actually put the recording up than to transcribe it. Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:56:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com]> Subject: Re: Hello and such >How does that "automatically loop this think I'm recording" feature work? >Sounds interesting! Should be "thing", of course. I don't remember how it works. I'll look it up soon. I haven't tried it yet. Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:52:52 -0400 From: cwb@platinum.com (Clark Battle) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Technohoploops? >From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) >You are probably the one with the most Echoplexes in the world (I have two >to make stereo sound and an old one for programming) - so show us what is >possible ! Does the echoplex only take a mono signal? Do you really need two to loop stereo signals? Clark Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:07:51 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Technohoploops? >>From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) >>You are probably the one with the most Echoplexes in the world (I have two >>to make stereo sound and an old one for programming) - so show us what is >>possible ! > >Does the echoplex only take a mono signal? Do you really need >two to loop stereo signals? > Yes, that is true. Its also true of the Jamman and Boomerang. The reason is that at the time it was being designed, the cost of memory and processing required to do stereo loops would have made the list price much too high. That is not so true anymore, and I imagine that next generation loopers will have no problem including the capablity of multiple simultaneous loops. The advantage of the current Echoplex over the others out there is that it is designed to easily sync with other echoplexes. (as well as other sources) Its "BrotherSync" does two things. It syncs the sample clocks together, so you don't have phase problems, and it provides sync pulses in such a way that any of the units connected can define the basic loop. The others can then easily create loops of exactly the same length or multiples of that length. This is much more than just stereo, and can be quite a powerful tool. So it is quite easy for Chris Chovit and others to use several of them at once forhis multi-track type loops. The best stereo set up is really a subset of the brothersync setup, although a little different. With stereo you have one echoplex be master and one slave. Midi out of the master is sent to the midi in of the slave, so commands on the master are duplicated on the slave. You also connect the brothersync so that the sample clocks are together. Once it is set up, you don't have to think about it anymore, the two operate together. (and by the way, there are people with more echoplexes than Chris. I believe there is one fellow with 8 or 9 of them) kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com Date: 16 Sep 1996 16:36:43CST6CDT Subject: Loopy & Moo. Re: Moo: Why not Moo? Moo is the cow sound. Looping it becomes an OM like reverberance. Re: VHS HiFi Head Switching Noise: Odd. Can anyone shed light on this occurrence? I'm not hearing this on mine, even in headphones but I might not be as audio anal as some. Loop Storage: Just to give you an idea regarding how I store the loops is like this. My profuse apologies to DAT fans, but I don't have DAT yet (and likely won't for a while, I'd much rather have an Echoplex!)...Here's how to store loops on VHS hi-fi videotapes. o Take the RCA line-outs from the mixer of my four-track into the front-mounted RCA jacks on my VCR. Use decent, shielded RCA cables, not "chez Plastic" brand for the best signal transfer. Note: Make sure your recording levels are not going to be going into the red. remember that most VCRs have an analog preamp for this kind of thing and you might want to avoid creaming it or your tape WILL sound bad. A good way of monitoring the sound levels is to insert a stereo cassette deck with LED / flourescent metering AFTER the VCR to adjust levels on the 4-track recorder. Another way I do it is this way, which is a bit more complicated: 4-track to Barcus-Berry Sonic Maximizer, BBE into VCR, after the VCR we have the aforementioned JVC cassette deck for level monitoring and from there into a Rotel integrated amplifier and from there into headphones or my monitor system. The BBE process some of you may be familiar with, but it adds some audio sweetening. If I really want to get into a complicated territory, I can add my complete looping rig into the effects loop of the four track recorder for additional processing (Vortex / SGE / Studio Preamp, ad infinitum).. o Start the VCR recording on a fresh, good quality (not cheapie tapes, the good stuff). Before recording, take the new tape and fast forward all the way to the end and rewind. Record for five minutes silence in order to get a good header on the tape (what are you crying about missing five minutes for? The tape stores eight hours fer chrissakes...) o Record loops. Play back. Enjoy. Store them. You could also create EXTREMELY long loops (like the end of "Walking on Air" by King Crimson in concert - Fripp would set his loopers to peter out long after he left the auditorium....but set maximum loopage for loops that last HOURS...) Some video tapes are 8-9 hours in length, could create maxloop! But for the most part. NOTE: the longer the tape, the riskier the long term storage of same. The 120 tapes which are 6 hours in length are probably safest. You should use the standard methods of how tapes are to be stored, but I doubt you'll need to store them tails-out as it were. Kim: You finally did it. I gotta get an echoplex. I'm going bananas. By next spring, by hook or by crook. Agk. To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com Date: 16 Sep 1996 16:50:52CST6CDT Subject: Mis-formatted HellText. Sorry kids. That looked awful when I saw it come back. Re-formatted for better reader mental processing. Re: Moo: Why not Moo? Moo is the cow sound. Looping it becomes an OM like reverberance. Re: VHS HiFi Head Switching Noise: Odd. Can anyone shed light on this occurrence? I'm not hearing this on mine, even in headphones but I might not be as audio anal as some. Loop Storage: Just to give you an idea regarding how I store the loops is like this. My profuse apologies to DAT fans, but I don't have DAT yet (and likely won't for a while, I'd much rather have an Echoplex!)...Here's how to store loops on VHS hi-fi videotapes. Take the RCA line-outs from the mixer of my four-track into the front-mounted RCA jacks on my VCR. Use decent, shielded RCA cables, not "chez Plastic" brand for the best signal transfer. Note: Make sure your recording levels are not going to be going into the red. Remember that most VCRs have an analog preamp for this kind of thing and you might want to avoid creaming it or your tape WILL sound bad. A good way of monitoring the sound levels is to insert a stereo cassette deck with LED / flourescent metering AFTER the VCR to adjust levels on the 4-track recorder. Another way I do it is this way, which is a bit more complicated: 4-track to Barcus-Berry Sonic Maximizer, BBE into VCR, after the VCR we have the aforementioned JVC cassette deck for level monitoring and from there into a Rotel integrated amplifier and from there into headphones or my monitor system. The BBE process some of you may be familiar with, but it adds some audio sweetening. If I really want to get into a complicated territory, I can add my complete looping rig into the effects loop of the four track recorder for additional processing (Vortex / SGE / Studio Preamp, ad infinitum).. Start the VCR recording on a fresh, good quality (not cheapie tapes, the good stuff). Before recording, take the new tape and fast forward all the way to the end and rewind. Record for five minutes silence in order to get a good header on the tape (what are you crying about missing five minutes for? The tape stores eight hours fer chrissakes...) Record loops. Play back. Enjoy. Store them. You could also create EXTREMELY long loops (like the end of "Walking on Air" by King Crimson in concert - Fripp would set his loopers to peter out long after he left the auditorium....but set maximum loopage for loops that last HOURS...) Some video tapes are 8-9 hours in length, you could create maxloop! But for the most part. NOTE: the longer the tape, the riskier the long term storage of same. The 120 tapes which are 6 hours in length are probably safest. You should use the standard methods of how tapes are to be stored, but I doubt you'll need to store them tails-out as it were. Be safe rather than sorry, I caveat triumphantly. Kim: You finally did it. I gotta get an echoplex. I'm going bananas. By next spring, by hook or by crook. Agk. From: "Louis Collier Hyams" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:45:59 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Mis-formatted HellText. super heavy lofied approach... I love that stuff! so, what's the best most efficient way to get chips for the jammdude? financially mitigating any and all middlemen of course. also, are there any mods out there? still working on getting the real thing(!) collier Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:23:39 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Looper's Delight, the first week... It's been quite an exciting and dramatic start for the Looper's Delight mailing list! After just one week, we have 40 subscribers already! And that's with virtually no publicizing on my part. Ouside of an emailed announcement I made to a bunch of folks I knew were into looping, it's all been word of mouth. Also, we've been quite prolific, with 115 posts so far. The Looper's Delight home page had 60 hits last week for a grand total of 218. Compared to the number of hits my home page normally gets, those are some big numbers! And considering the growth rate we're seeing, I expect it will get quite a bit bigger soon. Are we really that tiny of a subculture? I do plan to do some more significant publicity for the list, since I hope to bring in a good diversity of loopers to share their differing perspectives on the art and keep things interesting. Don't wait for me, though. If you want to tell your looping friends or post your own announcement wherever you think some loopers might be hangin', by all means go ahead! I've been busy fixing stuff up behind the scenes here, despite working billions of hours a week at a Silly-con Valley startup. Here are some of the little bugs I've cleaned up over the past week: - The irritating "Resent-To" header line has been fixed so it only shows your address rather than half the subscribers on the list. - The "Reply-To" header shows up with the list address, so we don't accidently mail replies just to the person who posted when we meant them for the whole list. - The list address always shows up correctly with my domain name. Before it sometimes used my service provider's domain name, which was confusing. - The various subscription and help texts that get sent out automatically were edited so that they hold at least a little bit of useful information. Some of you have complained that the volume is perhaps too high, and asked if I could make a digest option. That's in the works, I expect it will be going this week some time. I'll announce how to subscribe to it. Also, I plan to put the list archives on the web site. The digest will make that easier for me, and in the mean time, if anyone wants to volunteer to make archive files out of all the posts, I'd welcome the help. As for volunteerism, you guys have been great. Lots of people have jumped at the idea of contributing things to the web site. Some good stuff has come in already, and more things are on the way. We've got the beginnings of a great little community going here, which is exactly what I had hoped for. Keep it up, it can only get cooler! loop on.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:14:05 -0400 (EDT) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: ejmd@erols.com (Ed Drake) Subject: 1st Post- Various Topics Hello Kim and fellow loopers, Thanks for starting up a great list! Keep up the great work. I'm going to apologize up front for what will probably be a long post. I am a fellow looper using Roland GR-1 guitar synth , Lexicon Jamman(32 sec) and Vortex,Digitech RDS8000 (8sec), 2 Roland SDE 1000(1.2 sec each),ART SGE Mach2, Mackie 1202 mixer and a few other things with both electric and acoustic guitars. I very seriously considering an Oberheim Echoplex. I am doing everything from rhythmic gamelan type looping to ambient droning washes to more traditional soloing over looped chord progressions. I have synced up my Jamman to my drum machine and am going to get into syncing Jamman to my Computer for Midi stuff. I agree with others posted about essential Loop Recordings including the Eno/Fripp/Torn/Frisell/Terry Riley/Steve Reich stuff. I wanted to add another of Steve Reich's pieces- "Electric Counterpoint" which features Pat Metheny playing all of the parts on multitrack. I know there is no looping device used but with the repetitive/minimalist parts that interlock and weave through various permutations, it is very looplike ( think gamelan/Fripp) and with the instruments being guitars it seems appropiate (since it seems a lot of us are guitarists). Kim Flint said: >The software that came with your echoplex is the most current *shipping* >software. A lot of work has been done on an upgrade that is actually really, >really good. It's currently being held up by a contract problem at Oberheim. >I'm trying to help the various parties work it out, hopefully soon. One way >or another I'm sure it will get out there. Kim -What are some of the issues which will/might be addressed when the software update is finally released? Andre La Fosse said: >but there are at least a few unfortunate >gremlins floating about in the initial version that have caused me a few >headaches). Andre -What are some of the gremlins you are talking about? Dave Stagner said: >Here's a technique I use with the JamMan to get a more flexible, >improvisational feel from it........ Now, rather than using the looping >functions, I usually >prefer to just use its delay function....... Turn the feedback up high >and start looping. At 16, you effectively have infinite repeat. As >things build, you can turn the feedback down and let a loop fade, then >turn it back up and add more to the loop while the older material floats >in the background. This makes for a much more dynamic and rewarding >looping improv, I think. Dave- I tried it and loved it but as Jon Durant pointed out it is a bummer that you can't loop it and play over it without adding what you are playing to the echo. Thanks anyway because I had not thought of using the Jamman like that and it does give a different approach to the looping. Someone posted (Sorry!) > Echoplexes often aren't as expensive as you'd think. The retail is about > $879 for a new unit, but for just over $500 I picked up a brand new unit > *plus* the foot controller. >The store I got it at (Nadine's here in L.A., incidentally one of > the few places I've found that even stocks the thing) wanted to move the > units. I called the guy at Nadine's after reading your post and talked to the owner and he said after I told him about the list he quoted me a price of $500 for the 12.5 second 'Plex and $75 for the footswitch contingent on whether Oberheim had changed it's list price. I told him I wasn't in a huge hurry to buy so he's supposed to call me back and I have not heard back yet. He said they will ship anywhere( I live in Virginia). Give him a call. dave at studio seventeen said : > in fact I made some major major changes to how I do things after I was >fortunate >enough to speak with John Sinks (RF's guitar tech). dave-What was your setup and how did you change it after speaking to John? I think it would be great to hear what other folks setups/signal paths are as well, as it might help to inspire us to try something we have not thought of before. Enough for now. Again thanks to Kim for a great list Best regards Ed Drake From: sarajanes@mdcs.com (Sarajanes) Subject: A Short Introducion.. Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:41:20 GMT To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com To Loopers Repeating Everywhere, At Kim's suggestion I'm forwarding the following text as a short introduction to any and all..... Dear Kim, Greetings my name is Bryan Helm, and my wife just contacted "loopers delight" to subscribe. I am the looper in the house however, she likes to do e-mail, and beat me to the punch as far as contacting you.Anyway my musical partner Dave Stafford turned me on to your forum, and I thought I would enjoy swapping verbal signals with other loopers. As a point of reference I'm 38 years old and have been looping since 1979. I started with a friend of mine using a couple of quarter inch half-tracks at 7and 1/2 ips (Tandberg and an Otari) returning signal through a Roland Space-Echo to control gain. We inputted all kinds of stuff(acoustic piano,acoustic guitar, found instruments, meetings) but mostly electric guitar w/effects and electric piano (Wurlitzer) and a Roland RS-09 string box, and an ARP 2600. We did limited release cassette tapes as "Cloud Silence" and performed in the central Ohio area in 1980 and 81 at Art museums and Coffee houses, record stores, wherever we could. We would use a microphone stand to act as a capstan and seperate the two decks by feet to accomplish maximum delay between repeating signals. We based the system on the illustration on the back of"Discreet Music" by Brian Eno. Having seen "Frippertronics" and better yet, heard it, we wanted to tweak our gear around as much as possible to access "like" textures. In general we could get close to three minutes of decay time with 5 to 10+ seconds delay between signals depending on deck positioning. We always tried to get maximum signal input levels to minimize the inherent noise ratios that loopinging in an analog tape format brings into play. We four tracked forwards against backwards loops (standard,double,half and quarter speeds) and in general had a good time, studio and live.We morphed into a trio that played with pretaped loops and then a quartet with no loops. In 1984 I obtained an Electro-Harmonix 16 Second Delay, and looping analog style( helped by a dead deck) was over. Having run over the sequencer thru space-echo combination probably one too many times, the EH unit was welcome and stayed my sole signal processing unit until I added an old Alesis Microverb and a Lexicon Jam-man with the 32 second upgrade in 1994. I use all these to process a Korg DW-8000, a Roland TR-505 drum machine, acoustic/electric guitar, and voice. I do live and studio work solo, and with Dave Stafford as "Bindlestiff"- A real time looping duet using no Midi or clock interfaces for synch.I've been listening to electronic music since 1968 but would probably be best labeled a techno-primitive in my approach to manual and electronic technique.For me looping is a wonderful means of accessing textures that always amuse and sometimes amaze. I've seen the tools advance in the last decade towards more and more players that I hope will bring the eloquent truth of good loops to more ears. "Ambient" works are still my favorite style of looping to play and listen to. I look forward to reading more comments, and welcome dialogue via e-mail with any loopers at the following address: sarajanes@mdcs.com Great to find this place in cyberspace. I hope to visit the website later this week. Sincerely, Bryan Helm Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:37:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: More JamMan tricks On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Ed Drake wrote: > Dave Stagner said: > >Here's a technique I use with the JamMan to get a more flexible, > >improvisational feel from it........ Now, rather than using the looping > >functions, I usually > >prefer to just use its delay function....... Turn the feedback up high > >and start looping. At 16, you effectively have infinite repeat. As > >things build, you can turn the feedback down and let a loop fade, then > >turn it back up and add more to the loop while the older material floats > >in the background. This makes for a much more dynamic and rewarding > >looping improv, I think. > Dave- I tried it and loved it but as Jon Durant pointed out it is a bummer > that you can't loop it and play over it without adding what you are playing > to the echo. Thanks anyway because I had not thought of using the Jamman > like that and it does give a different approach to the looping. Someone here suggested trying to put my Vortex into the feedback loop of the JamMan manually, using a mixer. I tried it and it was interesting, but hard to control. I couldn't get a good balance between looping and feedback, and distorting the input on the JamMan is NOT pretty. I'm hoping to rewire things tonight to split the output from the Vortex and send it to the mixer and the JamMan separately, then mix the JamMan back in at the output. That way, I could control the JamMan's delay feedback without always sending signal into it. Ideally, I'd like to do this with a couple of stereo volume pedals, so I can control both the input to the JamMan and its output. Speaking of volume pedals, has anyone used the Rolls stereo volume/expression pedals? I can't find a dealer around here to try one, and I'm leery of buying one sight unseen. But right now, I'm using a gutted Crybaby as a jury-rigged expression pedal, and it's less than satisfying. As soon as I get the chance, I think I'm gonna pull out my trusty soldering iron and kludge a hand-control pot together for studio playing. And speaking of studios, I finally put one together, thanks to the motivation from this list. I realized how much I miss looping on a regular basis, and set a little table up in the basement, (hopefully) safe from the children. But they like playing my guitars whenever they get the chance... Daddy always leaves them in such pretty tunings! -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. /* dstagner@icarus.leepfrog.com */ -Charles Fort /* http://www.leepfrog.com/~dstagner */ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:00:12 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Gremlins and other oddities On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Ed Drake wrote: > Andre La Fosse said: > >but there are at least a few unfortunate > >gremlins floating about in the initial version that have caused me a few > >headaches). > Andre -What are some of the gremlins you are talking about? The most problematic for me is that the reverse function has an erratic and unpredictable tendency to introduce a popping noise at the initial loop point, which is generally unremovable. In a transparent loop, this is a real bummer, dude. Beyond that, there's a function called "loop copy" which was apparently not finished in time for the initial shipment of the Oberheim; the slot on the front panel reserved for this function doesn't actually do anything, so you have to use a slightly less direct combination of commands to get this going (although it does work flawlessly when you use it). I've also noticed that the delay mode of the unit tends to be a bit tempramental in terms of how and where it decides to place the loop point. Finally, the storage-to-sequencer operation is a lot more complex than one might initially think; I finally got it working with the right sort of sequencing program (Performer) but it's mighty slow. (This last gripe has less to do with Echoplex problems, I think, and more to do with the evils of MIDI protocol in general). I've talked to Kim about most of these problems, and they look to be solved by the now-legendary Currently Unavailable Echoplex Upgrade. Kim has also made reference (on the Torn list, I think) to a variety of other fairly minor bugs which most of us have hopefully never noticed. (Are there any others we should be on the lookout for, Kim?) I have a suggestion: In order to demonstrate to Oberheim just how much demand there is for the upgrade, perhaps we should initiate an e-mail campaign demanding that the upgrade be released (and at a very reasonable price, since there are at least one or two things mentioned above that were supposed to be a part of the initial, fully-functional unit). > Someone posted (Sorry!) ('Twas me yet again...) > > Echoplexes often aren't as expensive as you'd think. The retail is about > > $879 for a new unit, but for just over $500 I picked up a brand new unit > > *plus* the foot controller. > > The store I got it at (Nadine's here in L.A., incidentally one of > > the few places I've found that even stocks the thing) wanted to move the > > units. > I called the guy at Nadine's after reading your post and talked to the > owner and he said after I told him about the list he quoted me a price of > $500 for the 12.5 second 'Plex and $75 for the footswitch contingent on > whether Oberheim had changed it's list price. I should also mention that the price I found the 'Plex at was part of a large store-wide sale. One of the guys there said I'd have to wait until the actual sale before I could snag the gear at that price. (As it was a store-wide, three day sale, I anticipated camping out on the front sidewalk early that morning, somehow envisioning imagining hordes of LA musicians eager to snatch up a real-time looper). However, when I went in to try one out, a different sales guy said he could do the sale price right then and there. Even at $500, though, it's still way cheaper than the $879 list price. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the price could be talked down cheaper still... Bye for now, --Andre Date: 17 Sep 96 15:20:12 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: Gremlins and other oddities > I have a suggestion: In order to demonstrate to Oberheim just how much > demand there is for the upgrade, perhaps we should initiate an e-mail > campaign demanding that the upgrade be released excellent idea, Andre. Maybe it will stir up something at Oberheim Central. Kim and Matthias: who do you think we should send the email to? -M From: "Louis Collier Hyams" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:46:01 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: More JamMan tricks howdy all, this is collier, and if we need introductions I'll contribute one soon. on the rolls stereo volume pedal... well, it works and it's small... I was playing in LA and had to have a volume since my roland died, so I taxied over to the guitar center on sunset and picked up the "cheapy" out of emergency. guess what, it's plenty good enough for my live rig and it's quiet. around 30 something bucks. collier Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Loopy & Moo. > NOTE: the longer the tape, the riskier the long term storage of same. The 120 tapes > which are 6 hours in length are probably safest. You should use the standard methods > of how tapes are to be stored, but I doubt you'll need to store them tails-out as it were. If I were storing loops on VHS tapee, I'd definitely do so in SP (high speed) mode. Much less likeely to los something audible due to physical tape problems that way. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 00:52:09 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: Loopy & Moo. >Re: Moo: >Why not Moo? Moo is the cow sound. Looping it becomes an OM like >reverberance. Oh, I see. Like it. By the way, what is man sound like? >Re: VHS HiFi Head Switching Noise: >Odd. Can anyone shed light on this occurrence? I'm not hearing this on >mine, even in >headphones but I might not be as audio anal as some. Hey wait, I am audio what? I see, I just was not lucky. And the guy that robbed the machine then not so much either... And yes, I used cheap tapes. >o Start the VCR recording on a fresh, good quality (not cheapie tapes, the >good stuff). > Before recording, take the new tape and fast forward all the way to the >end and rewind. > Record for five minutes silence in order to get a good header on the >tape (what are you > crying about missing five minutes for? The tape stores eight hours fer >chrissakes...) Oba, when I used slow speed, the noise used to become worse. I am happy that it works for you and wish many hours of loops. I am using a TCD D3 tiny DAT for years and keep fixing it (it is not very resistant). An amazing machine considering its high complexity! Matthias Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:41:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Loops (no! loops?) You are all lucky to have these toys. So far trying to use advertisement in american paper I could find here in france (mostly gutar player and keyboards) to reach american retailers that could send to France. no succes so far. If you have a phone number of anyone, let me know.. I don't have a jamman, but I know a way to play over loops and modidfy in real time injections in the loop. Get the machine in the effect loop of your mixer ( i have a mckie 1202 and a 1604) that all, folks Olivier M. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:41:38 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: More JamMan tricks >On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Ed Drake wrote: > >> Dave Stagner said: >> >prefer to just use its delay function....... Turn the feedback up high >> >and start looping. At 16, you effectively have infinite repeat. As >> >things build, you can turn the feedback down and let a loop fade, then >> >turn it back up and add more to the loop while the older material floats >> >in the background. This makes for a much more dynamic and rewarding >> >looping improv, I think. >> Dave- I tried it and loved it but as Jon Durant pointed out it is a bummer >> that you can't loop it and play over it without adding what you are playing >> to the echo. Thanks anyway because I had not thought of using the Jamman >> like that and it does give a different approach to the looping. That is a bummer. I didn't realize the jamman couldn't do that. It's really a very useful technique to have the feedback turned down a bit while you continue playing. Constantly evolving textures and all. Of course you know that I'm going to go on about how the echoplex does this. I've got a big mail backlog and don't really have time so just pretend I'm saying it and we'll move on here. [blah, blah, blah] Dave again: >Someone here suggested trying to put my Vortex into the feedback loop >of the JamMan manually, using a mixer. I tried it and it was >interesting, but hard to control. I couldn't get a good balance >between looping and feedback, and distorting the input on the JamMan >is NOT pretty. > >I'm hoping to rewire things tonight to split the output from the >Vortex and send it to the mixer and the JamMan separately, then mix >the JamMan back in at the output. That way, I could control the >JamMan's delay feedback without always sending signal into it. >Ideally, I'd like to do this with a couple of stereo volume pedals, so >I can control both the input to the JamMan and its output. > I've been meaning to try something like this for a long time. I really want a looper to have an effects loop in the feedback path so I can have my loops change in some way with each pass. It occured to me some time back that this could probably be done with two loopers (jammans or echoplexes I suppose, and I'm sure there was a reason for why I thought I needed two to do this rather than one, but I'm not remembering it now). The feedback path could be set up externally and effects easily patched in. The downside is the unintentional effect of passing the loop through A/D / D/A conversions repeatedly. So how's it working out Dave? Has anyone else tried this? kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:48:13 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Torn... Is there also a David Torn e-mail list in this part of the universe? Does anyone know? O. M. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:49:44 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! >>Ray Peck said: >> >>>I have a recording, which I made myself, of Eno discussing "It's Gonna >>>Rain", and explaining that that's where he got the idea, which was >>>passed on to Fripp. >> >>So your recording is very interesting. Would you mind to write down the >>dedicated part so we can post it? > >I'll try to get to it. Eno's said this on a number of occasions. I >might have an audio version on-line. > >BTW, it's be (far) easier for me to actually put the recording up than >to transcribe it. This would be nifty for the web page. Does anyone know how to put RealAudio stuff on a web site? Better yet, does anyone want to figure it out, do whatever it takes to put the eno file in RealAudio format, and send it to me for uploading? kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com From: "Eric Obermuhlner" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:23:17 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Gremlins and other oddities Hi everybody I've been lurking sofar, because I'm not a musician. My connection to loop music and the reason why I'm on this list is, that I wrote the software for the Echoplex Digital and the old LoopDelay together with Matthias Grob and worked together with Kim at Gibson [Hi Matthias, Kim I finally found time to write some email :-)]. You can therefore blame most of the bugs on me. It is great to see so many people on this list and know that what we worked on all this time is actually being used and (I hope) liked. > Finally, the storage-to-sequencer operation is a lot more complex than > one might initially think; I finally got it working with the right sort > of sequencing program (Performer) but it's mighty slow. (This last gripe > has less to do with Echoplex problems, I think, and more to do with the > evils of MIDI protocol in general). > > I've talked to Kim about most of these problems, and they look to be > solved by the now-legendary Currently Unavailable Echoplex Upgrade. Kim > has also made reference (on the Torn list, I think) to a variety of other > fairly minor bugs which most of us have hopefully never noticed. (Are > there any others we should be on the lookout for, Kim?) > Yeah, MIDI Sample Dump is very complex. Actually it wouldn't be, but every Manufacturer implemented it a little bit different and the Echoplex doesn't have the user interface a Mac has, which makes it very hard to set all the parameters needed to fiddle until two units understand each other. The infamous update that hangs in contract-limbo will solve these problems I think. Much more params to set and better error-checking and weird-behaviour-work-arounds in MIDI Sample Dump should do it. The speed is a MIDI Sample Dump problem which cannot be solved. Sorry. Eric. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- thereisatheorythatstatesthatifthepurposeoftheuniversewereeverdiscoveredit wouldimmediatelybereplacedwithsomethingevenmorebizzarelyinexplicable [Douglas Adams] Eric Obermuhlner obermuhlner@takefive.ch thereisasecondtheorythatstatesthatthishasalreadyhappened [Douglas Adams] Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:46:55 -0400 From: "S. Patrick Hickey" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Torn... Yes, there's DoorX, to which I subscribe. I also subscribe to Digital Guitar Digest. I see posts from Kim in both places and from Jon in the former, and learned of this list from one (both?) of the lists. Here's the trailer from a *digest* (:) version of DoorX: > OTHER STUFF > > To leave / join this mailing list or have your thoughts in the next issue, > please send electronic mail to Door X at the following address: > door-x@umich.edu > > You can contact the editor (Pete Cole) directly at the following address: > pcole@sseyod.demon.co.uk, or through the SSEYO Koan website at > http://www.sseyo.com ... > > Note : if you mail either of the above addresses on a Torn-related issue, > and definitely do *not* want your post in the next issue, then please mark > your mail as such ! Thanks ! > > Surf the awesome Torn Web site courtesy the one and only Jeff Stuit, at : > http://ott-outreach.engin.umich.edu/torn/ > > Visit Anil Prasad's INNERVIEWS website featuring in-depth interviews with > some of the world's most interesting and innovative musicians - including > David Torn - at : > http://www.carleton.ca/~aprasad > > Visit the CMP records web page at : http://www.move.de/cmp-records ... > > Torn can be sent e-mail via : > texture444@aol.com > Snail mail address : > C/O Texture, Box 465, Bearsville, NY, USA 12409. > > [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] > [] END OF DOORX [] > [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][] Enjoy, Pat Hickey ***SPH brzrkr@nielsenmedia.com Date: 18 Sep 96 10:51:29 EDT From: Teed Rockwell <74164.3703@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Teed/Geist in Concert I probably should have posted this ages ago, but I'm doing a concert with Geist on Wednesday September 18th at 8:00 at Strings. Strings is in Oakland, CA at 6320 San Pablo. Take the Ashby Exit from ROute 80, then turn left on San Pablo, and go about 5 or 6 blocks. There is a blank sign, because technically this place is not a club at all, but someone's living room. Consequently, there is no admission charge, but a donation box, in which you can put whatever you can spare. A great sound system, and a nice receptive audience. I will be doing one piece using my Oberheim digital echoplex pro; The rest of the evening will be Geist, which is Harp, Chapman Stick, and Percussion. On September 28th at 7:00, The Echoplex and I will be playing Solo, opening for the Band Zero at the Marijuana Medicine show in Golden Gate Park. Watch this space for further details to be posted nearer the date. Teed Rockwell 74164.3703 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:43:47 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Loops (no! loops?) >You are all lucky to have these toys. So far trying to use advertisement >in american paper I could find here in france (mostly gutar player and >keyboards) to reach american retailers that could send to France. no >succes so far. If you have a phone number of anyone, let me know.. >Olivier M. I can't remember Oberhiem's distributor in France, but it probably doesn't matter because it didn't pass CE emissions tests and so far as I know that problem wasn't fixed. I could be wrong about that though. I had finished most of the design revisions for that before I left, I just don't know if they ever actually did it. You can probably get one in Switzerland, since they don't require CE approval. I think the distributer there is Holles, if I remember right. Gibson's web page could probably help you find a dealer. That's www.gibson.com. I'm sure there are phone numbers there too. Oberheim's phone number is 510-635-9633. (add the right country code for the US, I have no idea what that is. I couldn't figure it out when I was in europe, either) hope that helps, if you still have troubles, ask me again. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com