Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:39:41 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Gremlins and other oddities >> I have a suggestion: In order to demonstrate to Oberheim just how much >> demand there is for the upgrade, perhaps we should initiate an e-mail >> campaign demanding that the upgrade be released > >excellent idea, Andre. Maybe it will stir up something at Oberheim Central. >Kim and Matthias: who do you think we should send the email to? > >-M Some rabble-rousers, I like it! I could be completely diabolical and give you the email addresses of all the Gibson Guitar execs. A nagging voice tells me that won't really solve the problems, despite whatever amusement it may provide me. So until I stop hearing voices, I'll hold on to those. Oberheim is pretty good a fending off pesky customers, but if you want to rant at their voice mail system the number is 510-635-9633 or 1-800-279-4346. Probably even better is to call Gibson's customer relations number, which I think is 1-800-4GIBSON. Allen Green is the echoplex man there. They have some sort of mailing list thing which you can learn about at: http://www.gibson.com/info/listserv/gibson-custrel/ You can spam that to your heart's content. Now that I think about it, Mike Lyon, OB's general manager, provided his email address on door-x, so it can't hurt to put it here. mlyon@gibson.com Have fun, and don't tell 'em I sent you! kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 01:09:03 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Gremlins and other oddities Andre said: >Beyond that, there's a function called "loop copy" which was apparently >not finished in time for the initial shipment of the Oberheim; the slot on >the front panel reserved for this function doesn't actually do anything, >so you have to use a slightly less direct combination of commands to get >this going (although it does work flawlessly when you use it). Not only was the LoopCopy parameter not finished, we hadn't even managed to agree on how it was supposed to work! >I've also noticed that the delay mode of the unit tends to be a bit >tempramental in terms of how and where it decides to place the loop point. ?? Never heard of that problem. What do you mean? >I've talked to Kim about most of these problems, and they look to be >solved by the now-legendary Currently Unavailable Echoplex Upgrade. Kim That's the CU-EU for short.... >has also made reference (on the Torn list, I think) to a variety of other >fairly minor bugs which most of us have hopefully never noticed. (Are >there any others we should be on the lookout for, Kim?) The bugs are mostly obscure, I think, and for most uses you don't ever notice them. Things like failing to recognize midi note-offs properly, and problems with sample dumps to some samplers with weird implementations. One of the parameters (MuteMode, I think) failed to store itself properly on powerdown. I think 8ths/beat = 1 had a problem generating midi clock right. The occasional reverse pops (fairly rare, but annoying when they happen). I don't have a handy list to paste in here, and those are the noteworthy things I'm remembering. Here's some little blurb I sent to someone about it once upon a time: There are a myriad of bug fixes, numerous minor adjustments and improvements to existing functions, and some great new features as well. Some things of interest are: LoopCopy, Multiple Parameter Sets, Sysex parameter dump, real-time sysex parameter control, noise-gate threshold control, implementation of midi program change for controlling everthing with dumb footpedals, greatly improved sync capabilities, and bunches of other stuff. hope this helps, kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:36:20 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: FeedBack tricks Kim gasped: >Constantly evolving textures and all. Of course you know >that I'm going to go on about how the echoplex does this. I've got a big >mail backlog and don't really have time so just pretend I'm saying it and >we'll move on here. [blah, blah, blah] May I help? >>> Dave Stagner said: >>> >prefer to just use its delay function....... Turn the feedback up high >>> >and start looping. At 16, you effectively have infinite repeat. As >>> >things build, you can turn the feedback down and let a loop fade, then >>> >turn it back up and add more to the loop while the older material floats >>> >in the background. This makes for a much more dynamic and rewarding >>> >looping improv, I think. On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Ed Drake wrote:: >>> Dave- I tried it and loved it but as Jon Durant pointed out it is a bummer >>> that you can't loop it and play over it without adding what you are playing >>> to the echo. Thanks anyway because I had not thought of using the Jamman >>> like that and it does give a different approach to the looping. Kim agreed: >That is a bummer. I didn't realize the jamman couldn't do that. It's really >a very useful technique to have the feedback turned down a bit while you >continue playing. I agree more even: As said before, the point where looping really started for me. The Plex uses a 256 step value and filters it almost evey sample so you can smothly and quickly change it. I strongly suggest a pedal. In longer loops you maybe want to grow only a part of it: For example: Open +Overdub+ and reduce Feedback while opening the volume pedal so the sound you hear from the Loop will be replaced next time around by the one you fade in now. Not very difficult to imagine how it will sound. Then as your note fades, you open Feedback again and have a phase of the loop as it was before. +Replace+ is a function we have for this, but is to hard for most aplications because it chops off/on. With the FB pedal, you do it more creative and smooth. Sometimes in long loops (like 25sec) I start increasing the dynamics every turn around, rather taking back one part and then crescendo in to the full part... As it does not make sense to infinitally increase the content of the memory, we reduce automatically the FB a little while +Overdub+ is on. This prevents from the worst noises when somebody forgets +Overdub+ on. When you reduce FeedBack, **reduce loop time, too!** (Million times executed experience - how it works for me): Most music (and stories in general) has its static phase (contemplation, solo) and its dynamic phases (walking, discovering). Obviously, FB open is for the static and reduced for the dynamic phase. Since in the static phase you have time, you will multiply and increase loop time to make the loop more interesting, maybe less obvious. Then, when you enter a dynamic phase, its a drag, because changes take to long, or take a too radical reduction of FB which cuts the flow. So you reduce FB little, but also reduce loop time! If the loop is rather an educated one with a harmony sequence, built with +Multiply+, you will aply +Multiply+ by 1 or 2 when the basic harmony comes back. The loop stays on this base, maybe 4 or 8 times shorter, which gives you the chance to change it gradually and then build (use +Multiply+ again) a new harmony sequence. If the loop is rather of the anarchistic/ambient kind, you can reduce it with +Unrounded Multiply+, which is called by the RECORD following the MULTIPLY key. This way you can cut out any bit, as short as you want, mayb even aplying +Unrounded Multiply+ 2 or 3 times in a row, to really chop up the worm before the part with the heart grows again with more heads even... urgh, ahem,,,;-) Dave again: >>Someone here suggested trying to put my Vortex into the feedback loop >>of the JamMan manually, using a mixer. I tried it and it was >>interesting, but hard to control. I couldn't get a good balance >>between looping and feedback, and distorting the input on the JamMan >>is NOT pretty. >> >>I'm hoping to rewire things tonight to split the output from the >>Vortex and send it to the mixer and the JamMan separately, then mix >>the JamMan back in at the output. That way, I could control the >>JamMan's delay feedback without always sending signal into it. >>Ideally, I'd like to do this with a couple of stereo volume pedals, so >>I can control both the input to the JamMan and its output. >> Kim again: >I've been meaning to try something like this for a long time. I really want >a looper to have an effects loop in the feedback path so I can have my >loops change in some way with each pass. It occured to me some time back >that this could probably be done with two loopers (jammans or echoplexes I >suppose, and I'm sure there was a reason for why I thought I needed two to >do this rather than one, but I'm not remembering it now). The feedback path >could be set up externally and effects easily patched in. The downside is >the unintentional effect of passing the loop through A/D / D/A conversions >repeatedly. I did not try this and do not even feel like, right now. Just thinking: I think you will use this external FB path only every now and then, and keep the loop going with its internal FB. So once you set up the mixer conection with the Looper feeding the effect and the effect feeding the looper, you can use the +Replace+ function to switch to the external FB path. With +Overdub+ it will grow, which might be usefull sometimes in such a context. To load the loop, you would have to disconect the effect, either with its +bypass+ function (if it mutes the effect) or by closing the effects channel or Aux knob. Enjoy Matthias Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:36:35 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Gremlins and other oddities >Hi everybody > >I've been lurking sofar, because I'm not a musician. > >My connection to loop music and the reason why I'm on this list is, >that I wrote the software for the Echoplex Digital and the old >LoopDelay together with Matthias Grob and worked together with Kim at >Gibson [Hi Matthias, Kim I finally found time to write some email :-)]. Welcome! All fine in Zurich? >You can therefore blame most of the bugs on me. You can find him at lake Greiffensee with his huge tiny doughter on a sunday evening... Leave some bugs for me, porra! Of all found here, you only explain one: snip >Yeah, MIDI Sample Dump is very complex. snip Your last and most intense 'Plex-trip, really. Hope it serves for a lot of (greedy :->) loopers... The new version comes with the special MIDI manual he crated - I hope! Lets insist, brother Matthias Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:36:29 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! >>>Ray Peck said: >>> >>>>I have a recording, which I made myself, of Eno discussing "It's Gonna >>>>Rain", and explaining that that's where he got the idea, which was >>>>passed on to Fripp. >>> > >>>So your recording is very interesting. Would you mind to write down the >>>dedicated part so we can post it? >> >>I'll try to get to it. Eno's said this on a number of occasions. I >>might have an audio version on-line. >> >>BTW, it's be (far) easier for me to actually put the recording up than >>to transcribe it. > >This would be nifty for the web page. Does anyone know how to put RealAudio >stuff on a web site? Better yet, does anyone want to figure it out, do >whatever it takes to put the eno file in RealAudio format, and send it to >me for uploading? I thought Shockwave was the latest sound format? Text would still be the most immediate... Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:36:40 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: Gremlins and other oddities >On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Ed Drake wrote: > >> Andre La Fosse said: >> >but there are at least a few unfortunate >> >gremlins floating about in the initial version that have caused me a few >> >headaches). >> Andre -What are some of the gremlins you are talking about? Andre starts his list: >The most problematic for me is that the reverse function has an erratic >and unpredictable tendency to introduce a popping noise at the initial >loop point, which is generally unremovable. In a transparent loop, this >is a real bummer, dude. So sorry man. Then +Reverse+ was just incredibly complicated. Now a structural change made it simpler and killed the clicks. >Beyond that, there's a function called "loop copy" which was apparently >not finished in time for the initial shipment of the Oberheim; the slot on >the front panel reserved for this function doesn't actually do anything, >so you have to use a slightly less direct combination of commands to get >this going (although it does work flawlessly when you use it). Its done now. I wonder whether you are really going to use it. As you say, with +Next-Multiply+ or +Next-Insert+ you can do the same, more flexible for my taste. >I've also noticed that the delay mode of the unit tends to be a bit >tempramental in terms of how and where it decides to place the loop point. The Start Point, you mean? Yes, it jumped around under a certain condition I do not remember. Fixed. The +Next-Next+, to keep recording over various loops, I did not implement at first, because I did not recognize its use and thought to simply stop recording would be the most intuitive. Its not easy to imagine the practical use of functions, sometimes... Andre again: >> I have a suggestion: In order to demonstrate to Oberheim just how much >> demand there is for the upgrade, perhaps we should initiate an e-mail >> campaign demanding that the upgrade be released Michael solidarizes: >excellent idea, Andre. Maybe it will stir up something at Oberheim Central. >Kim and Matthias: who do you think we should send the email to? I have some doubt: The intention is nice, thanks. But would it have the right effect? Kim? Matthias Date: 19 Sep 96 05:45:42 EDT From: Teed Rockwell <74164.3703@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Re: CU-EU Kim, does the CU-EU contain that chip that will knock 8 db of noise off the sound? Teed Rockwell? Date: 19 Sep 96 05:45:57 EDT From: Teed Rockwell <74164.3703@CompuServe.COM> To: "INTERNET:Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com" Subject: Observations from playing experience Kim writes: One of the parameters (MuteMode, I think) failed to store itself properly on powerdown. I have had that experience. What happens is that it reverts to "continuous" even if you had preset it to "start". The Weird thing is: Once you call it up it says "Start", but if you shift it back and forth between the two, it actually ends up doing what it says it was already doing. (i.e. It starts from the beginning of the loop instead of cycling continuously.) Other Random observations: Don't tread hard on the footswitch if you think that function isn't working properly. You'll just break the footswitch in about six months. (I did this with the "Undo" button.) It seems to me that the Signal to Noise Ratio occasionally deteriorates if you let the machine get too hot. This could just be an illusion created by the noise becoming harder to ignore once you notice it, but I don't think so. The undo button is essentially useless without lots of extra memory, but terrific once you've got the memory. If you've built up to a certain level of layering, play lots of chords while steping on the undo button alot and when the chords die away you get you're starting loop back, ready to be build up. Playing the same pattern over and over again with the overdub button on creates a sound like a really cool digital delay. If you want to sound like an Ordinary delay unit, set the Feedback at about twelve o'clock, and keep the Overdub button on. I find it easier to work with the feedback knob than a feedback pedal. You can position the knob in a variety of diffferent ways, and remember what those positions sound like, which is not easy to do with a pedal. Also, There's usually lots of time to reach over and tweak the knob once you get a good loop going. The speed at which you move the feedback knob will effect the sound that occcurs in the loop afterwards, but I'm not sure exactly how. Any Info on that from anyone? One fun structure to work with. Create a loop, solo on it for a while until you hear some thing you like, then turn on overdub and store it. Then solo some more until you create something else you like, then store that. When it get too full, you can either 1) push the undo button several times until you get it down to size again (which removes the most recent loops.) Or 2) drop the feed back level (which fades out the earliest loops or 3) create a new loop and then jump back and forth between the two. That's all I can think of for awhile. Happy looping Teed Rockwell 74164.3703@Compuserve.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:14:53 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: CU-EU >Kim, > >does the CU-EU contain that chip that will knock 8 db of noise off the sound? > >Teed Rockwell? I don't think so. That's a hardware issue that doesn't really relate to the software. What Teed is talking about, is a new a/d - d/a converter to replace the one Oberheim is currently using in the Echoplex. Oberheim has to replace what they have, because that part has been discontinued by Crystal semi. The replacement part costs more because it does a lot of extra stuff that is totally useless in the Echoplex. It doesn't give an 8 dB improvement in signal to noise ratio, though. A preproduction sample I evaluated did that, but the production versions only improved it by 2-3 dB. Since I'm not involved with this anymore, I really have no idea what they are deciding to do about it. kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:16:57 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! >>>>Ray Peck said: >>>> >>>>>I have a recording, which I made myself, of Eno discussing "It's Gonna >>>>>Rain", and explaining that that's where he got the idea, which was >>>>>passed on to Fripp. >>>> >> >>>>So your recording is very interesting. Would you mind to write down the >>>>dedicated part so we can post it? >>> >>>I'll try to get to it. Eno's said this on a number of occasions. I >>>might have an audio version on-line. >>> >>>BTW, it's be (far) easier for me to actually put the recording up than >>>to transcribe it. >> >>This would be nifty for the web page. Does anyone know how to put RealAudio >>stuff on a web site? Better yet, does anyone want to figure it out, do >>whatever it takes to put the eno file in RealAudio format, and send it to >>me for uploading? > >I thought Shockwave was the latest sound format? Text would still be the >most immediate... jeez, and I work in this industry. How is anyone supposed to keep up.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:41:03 -0400 From: "S. Patrick Hickey" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Loops (no! loops?) USA has the audacity to have country code 1, or 001, depending on your phone system. Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:01:12 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: Loops (no! loops?) >You can probably get one in Switzerland, since they don't require CE >approval. I think the distributer there is Holles, if I remember right. Maybe check out PARADIS, Rolf Spuler first. 0041 52 233 34 43 >Gibson's web page could probably help you find a dealer. That's >www.gibson.com. I'm sure there are phone numbers there too. Oberheim's >phone number is 510-635-9633. (add the right country code for the US, I >have no idea what that is. I couldn't figure it out when I was in europe, >either) Well, what do you imagine? While all countrys have a 2 digit number, the US prefix is a plain "1". (Did they invent the telephone or something?) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:11:32 -0700 (PDT) From: rpeck@PureAtria.COM (Ray Peck) Message-Id: <199609192211.PAA27173@pure.PureAtria.COM> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >This would be nifty for the web page. Does anyone know how to put RealAudio >stuff on a web site? Better yet, does anyone want to figure it out, do >whatever it takes to put the eno file in RealAudio format, and send it to >me for uploading? I can digitize it and send it was, say, an AIFF or SDII file. Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:10:38 -0700 (PDT) From: rpeck@PureAtria.COM (Ray Peck) Message-Id: <199609192210.PAA27079@pure.PureAtria.COM> To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com >>> Dave- I tried it and loved it but as Jon Durant pointed out it is a bummer >>> that you can't loop it and play over it without adding what you are playing >>> to the echo. Thanks anyway because I had not thought of using the Jamman >>> like that and it does give a different approach to the looping. > >That is a bummer. I didn't realize the jamman couldn't do that. I guess maybe I don't understand the issue, since I'm not familiar with the Jamman. If the problem is that you want to play over the echo without adding to the echo, why not add a footswitch to bypass around the box? Better yet, a 1-into-2 fader, where one output goes directly to your mixer, and one goes through the jamman to the mixer? That way you could have very quiet "echos" of your solos loop along as you continued "non-loop playing". >I've been meaning to try something like this for a long time. I really want >a looper to have an effects loop in the feedback path so I can have my >loops change in some way with each pass. Ugh, they don't allow this? Not even the Echoplex? >The downside is >the unintentional effect of passing the loop through A/D / D/A conversions >repeatedly. They could supply the effects in/out as digital s/pdif, which wouldn't add much to the base cost. You could go right through an effects unit with digital in/out, and they could sell an add-on A/D D/A box for people with analogue effects that want to use this technique. Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:46:13 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: studio seventeen productions Subject: gremlin destruction when i read this: ........................................................... > Andre -What are some of the gremlins you are talking about? Andre starts his list: >The most problematic for me is that the reverse function has an erratic >and unpredictable tendency to introduce a popping noise at the initial >loop point, which is generally unremovable. In a transparent loop, this >is a real bummer, dude. So sorry man. Then +Reverse+ was just incredibly complicated. Now a structural change made it simpler and killed the clicks. >Beyond that, there's a function called "loop copy" which was apparently >not finished in time for the initial shipment of the Oberheim; the slot on >the front panel reserved for this function doesn't actually do anything, >so you have to use a slightly less direct combination of commands to get >this going (although it does work flawlessly when you use it). Its done now. I wonder whether you are really going to use it. As you say, with +Next-Multiply+ or +Next-Insert+ you can do the same, more flexible for my taste. >I've also noticed that the delay mode of the unit tends to be a bit >tempramental in terms of how and where it decides to place the loop point. The Start Point, you mean? Yes, it jumped around under a certain condition I do not remember. Fixed. .................................................. ........................................................i breathed a large sigh of relief. i noticed the reverse popping when testing the unit in the store, and actually took my first unit back and got a different one that seemed quieter. but it still happens, and it really kills the value....say you spend 20 minutes making a monster loop, and then you intend to reverse it, and make a recording of it. the POP appears...and all your work is TRASHED (unless you want the pop in you recording).... the LOOP COPY problem caused me even more grief: I called Oberheim, described the problem, and they said send it in. So I did. Three weeks later I got it back (after MANY MANY phone calls). As it turned out, there was "nothing wrong" with it (so they cost me weeks of down time for no reason) because you have to use LOOP COPY the alternate way (as noted above). what a pain that method is to. I can't remember it, and if I want to do it I have to drag out my pencilled notes and relearn the whole bizarre process. START POINT: as far as I'm concerned...this has NEVER worked correctly. so: anticipating the long awaited UPGRADE........that will make this box what it should have been all along!!! d 1734516817345168173451681734516817345168173451681734516817345168 lead me in with a count of seventeen... (Mr. Blint, Consequences/Godley & Creme) visit: http:www.adnc.com/web/ambient/index.html seventeen: the ambient music page 1734516817345168173451681734516817345168173451681734516817345168 Date: 20 Sep 96 02:16:15 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: Reply from Gibson hi folks, I wrote to Mike Lyon at Gibson, asking about the Echoplex Update. Here's what he replied. I'm not sure what to think of it. We'll see what happens. ---snip--------------------- Michael, Thanks for the e-mail in regards to the Echoplex. Yes you are correct, the update is close to ready and I do hope to release it soon. There are some technical issues that remain, but we are very close to a solution. Take a look at the September issue of Guitar Player, David Torn "The Loop Guru" and stay tuned to this channel for more info. ---snip-------------------- -Michael Peters (looping with the Paradis Loop Delay) http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:07:50 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: gremlin destruction > >........................................................i breathed a large >sigh of relief. i noticed the reverse popping when testing the unit in the >store, and actually took my first unit back and got a different one that >seemed quieter. but it still happens, and it really kills the value....say >you spend 20 minutes making a monster loop, and then you intend to reverse >it, and make a recording of it. the POP appears...and all your work is >TRASHED (unless you want the pop in you recording).... Personally, I don't have so much trouble with reverse. I'm not trying to excuse the pops, those can be annoying, but they aren't really that common. Of course my music often has elements in it that make a wee little pop seem pretty insignificant! But really, using reverse with guitars is just so damn fun that I heartily encourage everyone to play around with it and just try to live with the rather rare pop until the soft upgrade comes out. The enjoyment is easily worth the occasional pop, in my opinion. I know the boomerang has reverse functions, does the jamman? I should post some of my favorite reverse tricks. Sometime when i'm not answering mail at 4am maybe... >the LOOP COPY problem caused me even more grief: I called Oberheim, >described the problem, and they said send it in. So I did. Three weeks >later I got it back (after MANY MANY phone calls). As it turned out, there >was "nothing wrong" with it (so they cost me weeks of down time for no >reason) because you have to use LOOP COPY the alternate way (as noted >above). what a pain that method is to. I can't remember it, and if I want >to do it I have to drag out my pencilled notes and relearn the whole bizarre >process. They really amaze me sometimes. I only explained it to them like 50 times. I rather like the way loopcopy works now. To me it is quite intuitive, since it is just like using multiply, but your multiply occurs in another loop. When you think of it that way, its pretty easy to remember that the first thing you do is press NextLoop to go to another loop, then press Multiply to multiply (copy) when you go there... The only annoying thing is that SwitchQuant has to be on so that you switch loops only when you reach the end of the one you are in. That way you can press NextLoop early and have time to press something else before you switch. The LoopCopy parameter in the new soft basically makes it possible to copy without having SwitchQuant on, but the principles of its operation are similar. Its just more automatic. > >so: anticipating the long awaited UPGRADE........that will make this box >what it should have been all along!!! > yes, quite true.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:19:36 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: More JamMan tricks >>I've been meaning to try something like this for a long time. I really want >>a looper to have an effects loop in the feedback path so I can have my >>loops change in some way with each pass. > >Ugh, they don't allow this? Not even the Echoplex? > >>The downside is >>the unintentional effect of passing the loop through A/D / D/A conversions >>repeatedly. > >They could supply the effects in/out as digital s/pdif, which wouldn't >add much to the base cost. You could go right through an effects unit >with digital in/out, and they could sell an add-on A/D D/A box for >people with analogue effects that want to use this technique. sp/dif means two extra ic's, neither of which are very cheap, two extra connectors and rear panel space, extra board area, clock oscillator, and various passive components. On a low volume product, (anything in the music industry is low volume) this can mean adding anywhere from $40 to $80 to the list price of the product. Most effects boxes don't use digital audio, those that do are mostly high-end and use aes/ebu (sp/dif is a consumer format), which is more expensive. Big hit for something that 99% of the current market will never use. See how hard this stuff is? Its a wonder anything gets made.... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:31:37 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Subject: Vortex queries WARNING: This is a post regarding the Lexicon Vortex, and is not 100% loop-related. Those easily offended by non-topicality are advised to delete now or suffer the consequences! Anyway, I'm posting here since there's been much discussion regarding Vortex on the list as of late. I snatched one up at the legendary Guitar Center "Trying Not To Lose Our Shirts Over This Fringe Technology" $150 sale. (When I went in to pick it up, the guy at the counter grabbed one from atop a very large stack of Vortexes and quipped, "So how many do you want to pick up today?") At any rate, I'm not entirely conviced of the unit's possibilities. It's very nice sounding, but a lot of the distinctions between different effects seem to be along the order of different sorts of delay tap patterns and so forth -- pretty subtle things that would sound interesting in a headphone studio mix, but not so useful in a more performance-oriented application. There are one or two wonderfully hideous things I've run across (ring-mod and envelope-detune), but I'm wondering just how deep the thing is. So if any Vortex users would care to share some editing/operating tips,. I'd be most grateful. At the moment, I'm not sure if I'll hang on to it or take advantage of GC's return policy. Even at this cheap of a price, I don't know if it's worth it for two or three cool effects. So please offer some hints if you have any, preferably by e-mail so as to avoid taking up more bandwidth with non-topical material. Thanks very much, and sorry for the non-loop content, --Andre Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:33:02 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Vortex queries At 10:31 AM 9/20/96 -0700, you wrote: >WARNING: This is a post regarding the Lexicon Vortex, and is not 100% >loop-related. Those easily offended by non-topicality are advised to >delete now or suffer the consequences! > [vortex questions deleted] >So please offer some hints if you have any, preferably by e-mail so as to >avoid taking up more bandwidth with non-topical material. > >Thanks very much, and sorry for the non-loop content, > >--Andre Well, I was sort of intrigued by the vortex discussions myself, so if anyone wants to post it here I wouldn't mind. To me it is relevent to looping since I often loop heavily effected sounds..... kim ___________________________________ Kim Flint OEM Engineering Chromatic Research 408-752-9284 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 14:59:37 CST From: "Todd Madson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, ToddM@lasermaster.com Subject: Re: Vortex queries Kim: I'll put a transcription of the looping specific stuff from the manual addendum that only I seem to have here on Monday, in the meantime I'll give you some general VORTEX thoughts which may or may not help since I've only owned the unit for a bit more than a month. The looping specific stuff, especially in the manual addendum are rather complex and specific where my stuff tends to be more general. Andre: > WARNING: This is a post regarding the Lexicon Vortex, and is not 100% > loop-related. Those easily offended by non-topicality are advised to > delete now or suffer the consequences! The device loops in at least two of the programs, I'd say it's on topic. 1946 ms is nearly two seconds of recording time, David Torn said it was a good place to start so it's good enough for me. > Anyway, I'm posting here since there's been much discussion regarding > Vortex on the list as of late. I snatched one up at the legendary Guitar > Center "Trying Not To Lose Our Shirts Over This Fringe Technology" $150 > sale. (When I went in to pick it up, the guy at the counter grabbed one > from atop a very large stack of Vortexes and quipped, "So how many do you > want to pick up today?") Heh. In a way I wished I'd picked up another since I'll probably shelve the SGE I have (well, I may keep it just for the compression, EQ and harmonic exciter but it's heavy [to carry] and I'm not sure I want to keep it around just for that - half the fun of the Vortex is the dynamic control [like a fine tube amp] and a compressor just quashes that kind of fun, plus the Vortex audio quality is significantly better than that of the SGE, putting the SGE at the front end just "coldifies" the sound [sucks the warmth out]). > At any rate, I'm not entirely conviced of the unit's possibilities. It's > very nice sounding, but a lot of the distinctions between different > effects seem to be along the order of different sorts of delay tap > patterns and so forth -- pretty subtle things that would sound interesting > in a headphone studio mix, but not so useful in a more performance-oriented > application. Use the fractal, duo and shadow (shadow is more like a long tape echo patch than anything else) programs for looping porpoises: the fractal B program is especially interesting in that if you play a broken chord (or sound the individual notes that comprise a chord individually) you'll find that it starts feeding on itself and the notes sound faster and faster until you have a chord that comprises the notes. It's a neat effect for human voice and guitar. I've used duo to create pseudo King Crimson discipline interlocking guitar parts. Dynamic control can be a help and hindrance here. Experiment. Drums with this can be kind of disorienting but cool with the tap tempo. If you have a drum machine, you need the tap tempo feature to give you on the fly polyrhythms that do not sound robotic. Since I don't have an echoplex yet, this is my main looper for now. I'll probably use it as a treatment inducer for loops I create on the big boy when I get one. (Does anyone have a phone number and/or contact person for Nadine's music and do they ship? A $500 echoplex I could deal with.) How do I control this Vortex thing anyway? Well, the first thing you need to do is use the knob on your left (I forget how its labeled as it's not here in front of me, it's the one directly to the right of the input level control) and adjust your mix and echo effects levels properly for looping, which will vary if you're using it instrument- to-mixer-to-amp or in the effects loop of a mixer - the manual has a bit regarding this. The way the unit comes stock where your instrument is very prominent in the mix and the effects can be too subtle... I've mentioned that I want a live, swirling whirligig frenzy of sound when I play, so you might want to up the ante with regards to the echo level in the mix. There's also a mix parameter that allows you to adjust the instrument/effect ratio. These have been key for me to making more prominently noticeable loops, or to have a instrument prominently audible on top of a loop. Also, the knob is expression pedal controllable so that's real nice too. But I'm not sure what kind of expression pedal I should get or what's available. Suggestions anyone? But I should talk about the dynamic control: As an example, if you use the choir-B program and strum and open E chord and then silence your guitar strings, you get a heavily effected afterimage with the delays - you probably want to make that swirly effectoid stuff come forward somewhat. If you hit the strings harder, the effected image becomes louder. The dynamic control is the key here. When looped, the dynamic control becomes a very interesting aspect of this. > There are one or two wonderfully hideous things I've run across > (ring-mod and envelope-detune), but I'm wondering just how deep > the thing is. It looks like a petri dish that happens to be a very deep ocean when you jump into it. I'll show you on Monday. > So if any Vortex users would care to share some editing/operating tips,. > I'd be most grateful. At the moment, I'm not sure if I'll hang on to it > or take advantage of GC's return policy. Even at this cheap of a price, I > don't know if it's worth it for two or three cool effects. I'll be forwarding more practical and useful info on Monday... > So please offer some hints if you have any, preferably by e-mail so as to > avoid taking up more bandwidth with non-topical material. It's on topic, trust me! > Thanks very much, and sorry for the non-loop content, It's on topic! > --Andre Todd Madson http://www.waste.org/~crash/index.html From: "Louis Collier Hyams" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:56:10 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Vortex queries hi all, quick comments on the vortex... I tried it out when they were introduced and decided it didn't do enough of a great thing and left it alone. You're right about the headphone mix... it sounds great and effective(put that in quotes!) in a lab setting... but much of that gets lost in live situ's. so, with that said comes the next stage. I spent 4 days in a brooklyn recording studio with lots of hi end gear and etc. Started working on a tune that had acoustic guitars atop reggae bass and socha drums with a guitar ambience pad. tow of the acoustics were 12 strings(one being ebowed) and the other was an old martin six string. in the mixing things were very subtle and smooth but with very small testi-cleez. so as a last resort we patched in the lonesome and barely used vortex(they probably got a blowout deal on it too) and began tweeking and found a few surprises in almost reverby non linear and detuned areas. it's like the thing is almost this and almost a that, but not much of a real person. But, I did use it to do a rotovibe/leslie/hammondy thing to one of the 12 strings and it sound fairly smooth and natural. For 150 it's cool. I'll wait till I find one in a pawn shop for 35-50 clams and then pickit up. Just push the function and start jerkin' o the knob (no MAX programming skills needed). It's a neat box, but the jamman is more valuable to me and it's not satisfying either at the mommentum. I found that when you start tweeking, the interaction between functions was interesting. and the AB neat is a quick way to do things that I've been doing with 2-3 processors. So, use it(or you can give it to me anad I'll find a use for it). LEXI shoulda just put vortex, jamman, and one of the reverbs and sold that. I woulda bought it. collier oh, PS David (torn meister) is playing at the world famous troy music hall in TROY, NY on OCT. 11(I'll double check). So, we need to get some people over here to be part of the family! David is taking a slot that DAvid Lindley had to skip. Therefore the advertisement might not be strong enough for DT. also, if someone would like to come, we might be able to hook them up with a freeplace to crash if necessary. nothing like a welcome floor(believe me) From: "Louis Collier Hyams" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:57:42 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Vortex queries kim, what's OEM engineering/chromatic research? a new project? collier To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: ToddM@LaserMaster.Com Date: 20 Sep 1996 17:25:37CST6CDT Subject: My Own LooPage I have my own loop page set up at: http://www.waste.org/~crash/index.html Click on the little [LOOP] and you'll be taken directly to it. Some of the other points at my site, specifically [CRASH] and [ASB] already have sound samples of my stuff you can download, but the loopsite is too new so stay tuned. Let me know what you think. It's got Kim's waycool site as a major point of interest as well as a couple of others (Studio Seventeen among others). I'll be using it as a way to communicate deep mojo knowledge of the Vortex as well as any other hints and info I get, also I'll be talking about the type of rig I have, and hopefully will be another site on the internet devoted to this kind of thing. I'm not going to be going into the history of looping and the pioneers except on a low level - Kim's page will be the Encyclopedia Looptanica, the mother of all loops, that sort of thing - mine will just be a practical application guide for certain types of gear, how to make it work strangely, what's worked for me and stuff that interests me. Check it out if you have the time! Subject: Re: Vortex queries Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 15:41:05 -0000 From: Tom Attix* To: >Also, the knob is expression pedal controllable so that's real nice too. >But I'm not sure what kind of expression pedal I should get or what's >available. Suggestions anyone? If you're looking for something relatively cheap, I bought a Rolls volume/expression at Guitar Center for right around $50. The action isn't great, but it definitely does the job. If you haven't played thru your Vortex with a pedal yet, it's way cool. It opens it up even more. I have to say, I've only had the Vortex for a week but it's without a doubt the most fun I've had with my Stick since I got it. -Tom Attix _______________________________________________ attix@apple.com _______________________________________________ "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -Uncle Duke Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:06:20 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: Vortex queries At 05:57 PM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote: >kim, >what's OEM engineering/chromatic research? a new project? >collier > That's the Silly-con Valley company I now work for. check www.chromatic.com for more info. Next generation multi-media stuff.... kim ___________________________________ Kim Flint OEM Engineering Chromatic Research 408-752-9284 Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:04:13 -0700 (PDT) From: The Man Himself To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Vortex queries (and animal cruelty) WOAH! Many thanks to all for contributing some recommendations on the Vortex, especially Todd Madson. I do have one question for right now, though: > Use the fractal, duo and shadow (shadow is more like a long tape echo patch > than anything else) programs for looping porpoises: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Wouldn't this constitute unusual cruelty to aquatic animals? Is PETA going to raid the Lexicon lab in protest? Just wondering... --Andre Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:50:59 -0400 (EDT) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: ejmd@erols.com (Ed Drake) Subject: Vortex queries Ed Drake said: >>> Dave- I tried it and loved it but as Jon Durant pointed out it is a bummer >>> that you can't loop it and play over it without adding what you are playing >>> to the echo. Thanks anyway because I had not thought of using the Jamman >>> like that and it does give a different approach to the looping. > >That is a bummer. I didn't realize the jamman couldn't do that. Ray Peck posted >I guess maybe I don't understand the issue, since I'm not familiar >with the Jamman. If the problem is that you want to play over the >echo without adding to the echo, why not add a footswitch to bypass >around the box? Better yet, a 1-into-2 fader, where one output goes >directly to your mixer, and one goes through the jamman to the mixer? >That way you could have very quiet "echos" of your solos loop along as >you continued "non-loop playing". I guess what I meant was that you couldn't control it on the fly thru footswitch as a built in feature of Jam Man . I just turn down the effect send on my Mackie on the guitar channel and jam along. Right now I have my Jam Man on one of the effect sends on the Mackie 1202 . How are you other guys hooking up your systems ? Andre said: >So if any Vortex users would care to share some editing/operating tips,. >I'd be most grateful. At the moment, I'm not sure if I'll hang on to it >or take advantage of GC's return policy. Even at this cheap of a price, I >don't know if it's worth it for two or three cool effects. One way I use the Vortex is for rhythmic looping with the nifty little feature of each delay line can be set to subdivide the tapped pulse evenly to a different number such as one delay 2 ,the other 3, a nice simple polyrhythm to generate a rhythmic loop improv, which can then be looped by Jamman or (Echoplex), and soloed over. You can set the echoes to bounce around in really weird subdivisions too ( each delay can be set from 1-64).The max delay time for one echo is 923ms , but you set a tap interval which Vortex then keeps dividing in half until it comes up with a valid delay time.Try presets 9- Deja vu and 13 -Shadow. Its tricky to recreate some of the rhythmic things you come up with. Preset #10 Choir is a great starting place to tweak a really nice Chorus /Delay sound (one of the best I've heard).I really love the warm, lush sound it has. Lexicon recomends using Vortex inline and adjusting the dry/effects mix in Vortex but have any of you Vortexers tried using your vortex through the effects loop on mixer? Guitar Player Magazine generally liked Vortex but they did say it probably sounded best in stereo and unless you have a stereo rig it might not sound as good live. To me one of the best things about its' sound is its use of the stereo space. Kim Flint said: >I know the boomerang has reverse functions, does the jamman? I should post >some of my favorite reverse tricks. Sometime when i'm not answering mail at >4am maybe... It has reverse only in the sample mode.There are 3 Modes available on the Jam Man : Echo,Sample,Loop(2 types Punch in and Phrased Loops) you can only access each Mode by reaching up and turning a knob (not by Midi) on the front,and you can not switch between these modes on fly without losing what's in your loop or sample or echo. Within each mode, you have variables to play with, which you can access via Midi. I noticed the other day that I tend to make loops that generally fall into one of 2 categories : 1 rhythmic loops and 2 ambient spacey loops . I'm sure I 'm oversimplifiying some . One of the compositional games I'll play sometimes is to pick a set of pitches, say a simple A minor Pentatonic scale (A C D E G ) and create a cloud of harmony (ambient) or a riff (rhythmic) and then solo or find a melodic idea to play over it. Of course the harmony can get even weirder and the rhythms as well . Anybody else got any strategies you use when looping? Some one wanted Nadines's phone number which is 213-464-7550.The owner told me they do ship to you. Post me privately on what you find out as I haven't talked to them again yet. It's getting late for me so that's all for now Ed Drake Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:08:54 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Others way to loop??? I think Kim was wondering at the golden era of the beginning of these list page, what kind of devices we used, what kind of music we liked, using repetive stufff and others patterning thingies. You all know, since I bother you with that for a while, taht main delay is 1.8 sec of my SGE mach2 (Duh!- a la simpson) that I have no (ARRFGHH) jamman nor echoplax, partly due to astrnomic, not to say cosmic prices here in France (wich happens to be nonetheless my beloved country) So I had to find another way. Currently, I use my old Cubase.2 and my Roland Gr-50 guitar Synth to drive via midi delay the various synths (gr-50 itself, KorgM1, Korg DSS-1 old sampler, e-max and a funny Yamaha TB-01). That allow to have upt to a full note of delay (I mean this note during 4 time we call "ronde" in french). Since it is tempo dependant with le lowest tempo (30) I have around 6 to 7 seconds of delay. Ok that cannot compete with either the Jamdude nor the Echoplex, but since i've nothing else, like Eno said once, from limitation comes creativity (I try to convince myself). In another way I used a long time ago samplers to because when you repeat the sample on itself, you get tiny loops, and unless the technology of your machine is Roland's differential interpolation, then changing the note you play (i.e.transposing) changes the duration of this tiny loop. That is an other way. Then you could use multitracj recorder (I've an Akai 12 MG 14D) to add loops played without delay, I mean you just keep repeating a phrase thet seems relevant to you. It allows to treat independantly by mixing each phrase as far as effects and dynamics and so on are concerned. That is interesting to. Thoise of you with mulitracker should try. That is different to rely on a delay unit to loop for yourself, and then having to play everything. Since you never play exactly the same way, it gives a very differently flavoured loop. More organic, but less etheral, I I can say. I hope to have a CD soon Including some of this things, among other stuff (mainly synths, Chapmann Stick and numerous guitars with my favorite tunings, in 5th and one in minor thirds). Who knows... Olivier Malhomme Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:37:26 -0700 To: Ed Drake From: studio seventeen productions Subject: Re: Looping Setup Cc: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com At 10:58 PM 9/20/96 +0000, you wrote: >In a recent post on Looper's Delight, dave at studio >seventeen said : > >>in fact I made some major major changes to how I do > >>things after I was fortunate > >>enough to speak with John Sinks (RF's guitar tech). > > >dave- What is/was your setup and how did you change it after >speaking to John? >I would be interested to know how Fripp sets his stuff up in >more detail. There was some info in the article with King >Crimson last year in Guitar Player but not much detail. >Any help would be appreciated,as I am a fellow looper and >I'm always looking for new ways to hook up things and get >new and different sounds out of my gear. Thanks! > Best Regards Ed Drake > > Ed- (and ALL at L-D!) This was a general remark that has aroused a lot of curiosity. Unfortunately, this event occurred about two years ago, and I did indeed have the opportunity to talk with John at great length about the the "current" Fripp setup ( I was actually at a recording session RF was doing for a Midge Ure album, at a studio in a house in LA-just overdubbing two songs...while this went on, I questioned Sinks at great length and he was most forthcoming). This whole experience was such a shock to the senses (as you can imagine) that I at this point have no SPECIFIC recall of the actual setup. Basically I described my (primitive) set up to John, he told me in great detail about how RF's was set up, and I tried to glean whatever I could that might help my own setup. But the difference between Rf's and my setup are so ENORMOUS really nothing could bridge the gap. The signal path was one of the most complex I've ever heard described...and if you'd asked me the next day I doubt if I could have told you what it was. At that time he was using two of the TC electronics delays and a slew of other gear. Common elements in our setups: the only one I know of is the midi pedal I use (GROUND CONTROL), which was suggested to me by Bill Forth (former Guitar Craft registrar and RF right hand man) and is probably one of the best buys I've ever made. Far superior (in Bill's opinion) to the much-lauded Ultrafoot. You can create totally custom patches involving up to eight midi devices per patch. Other that that, the only similiarity between Rf and me is that we both loop. I understand that now he has FOUR of the TC electronics delays, and I've been told there is an Oberheim Digital Pro in his setup (I'm not sure about this now...) I choose the Oberheim for two reasons: 1) I used my partner's JamMan for a couple weeks, and it was great but limited. 2) The TC units are RIDICULOUSLY EXPENSIVE. Anyway, all I can say is that AFTER I saw RF's rig, talked to John, and recovered from shock, I came home and took a hard look at my setup. Some things went immediately. Signal paths changed...but nothing specific i could tell you now after all this time. And anyway, knowing how much my setup has changed...just imagine how Rf's must have during the same time!!!!!! not to mention the fact that he can AFFORD high-tech gear a bit better than I can :) !!! Now I'm going to search my hard drive for a document I prepared for a Finnish gentleman who visited our webpage and wanted to know how we created our music. This is a bit out of date, the significant change being that I have a fourth input device beyond e-bow/guitar, acoustic guitar, and synth which is a simple Discman. I find that by inserting 20 or 30 seconds of sound from some obscure CD, and then looping ebow, guitar or synth over it...well it adds to the texture of things. Anyway, hopefully you'll find attached "SETUP.TXT" which denotes a fairly recent description of my looping setup... BTW: fave input discs for the Discman: soundtrack to the TV series THE PRISONER (Vol. I). (this disc has yielded some amazing loops!) KOREAN drummers SAMULNORI. bits and pieces from obscure pop records (like MARTIN NEWELL). ALBONINI's "Adagio". Bits of classical music. Bits of Ali Akbar Khan...or Ravi Shankar...or Alla Rakha. Or Vietnamese pop music (instrumentals). anything that i can just take a SNIPPET of, not feel too guilty about "stealing" and then add to/enhance until it becomes unique and hopefully musical and/or beautiful.... sorry I can't provide any concrete detail about the RF setup...as it was, Sinks described the whole thing to me (taking perhaps 20 MINUTES) and then a bit later said: "hang on...I've left a bit out! BEFORE THE signal gets to such-and-such a stage, it's split and then goes in parallel to... etc. etc. even the guy that sets it up can't remember...so perhaps you can forgive my less than detailed account! thanks for listening! dave at studio seventeen Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:SETUP.TXT (TEXT/MSWD) (0000BE16) 1734516817345168173451681734516817345168173451681734516817345168 lead me in with a count of seventeen... (Mr. Blint, Consequences/Godley & Creme) visit: http:www.adnc.com/web/ambient/index.html seventeen: the ambient music page 1734516817345168173451681734516817345168173451681734516817345168 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:22:43 -0700 (PDT) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: finley@ecst.csuchico.edu (Matthew F. McCabe) Subject: Re: Vortex queries Greetings! Figured I'd add my 2 cents on the Vortex....which just arrived last night! :-) My initial response was on of disappointment. "Does this thing do anything?" I soon realized that it helps to have it patched into the mixer correctly!!! With a nice ambient loop looping in the JamMan I set about spinning the dials on the Vortex to see what it could do. Two hours later I concluded that the Vortex is a nifty little box (can't beat it for a 150 bucks). My favorite patch is the Deja Vu (b)....which is a looper. When used in conjunction with the JamMan (set in Echo mode) you can get some really cool loops happening that are always changing. Nice. The Reflexion 1 patch (when tweaked) is cool too. Someone asked where in the signal chain we place our looper of choice and various processors. Here's what I'm doing.... My Digitech GSP-2101 pre-amp feeds my Rane SM-82 mixer. The right effect send of the Rane feeds the JamMan (which is routed to channels 1 and 2) and the left effect send feeds the Vortex (outputs routed to the effects return). In this way the Vortex can process both the guitar and the loop simultaneously.....or one and not the other. Anyway....back to looping..... Matt ------------------------------------------------------------ King Never http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~finley/kingnever.html ------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew F. McCabe Able Cain King Never Marathon Records Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:15:29 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: More JamMan tricks >And speaking of studios, I finally put one together, thanks to the >motivation from this list. I realized how much I miss looping on a >regular basis, and set a little table up in the basement, (hopefully) >safe from the children. But they like playing my guitars whenever >they get the chance... Daddy always leaves them in such pretty >tunings! > >-dave Great! Up the wall? Rolf, my partner at PARADIS guitars had a son growing up in the middle of all the guitars he was building, repairing, exposing - a lot of special, new instruments, and the kid newer did any harm. I guess he understood... Matthias Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:16:00 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: More JamMan tricks >>>> Dave- I tried it and loved it but as Jon Durant pointed out it is a bummer >>>> that you can't loop it and play over it without adding what you are playing >>>> to the echo. Thanks anyway because I had not thought of using the Jamman >>>> like that and it does give a different approach to the looping. >> >>That is a bummer. I didn't realize the jamman couldn't do that. > >I guess maybe I don't understand the issue, since I'm not familiar >with the Jamman. If the problem is that you want to play over the >echo without adding to the echo, why not add a footswitch to bypass >around the box? Better yet, a 1-into-2 fader, where one output goes >directly to your mixer, and one goes through the jamman to the mixer? >That way you could have very quiet "echos" of your solos loop along as >you continued "non-loop playing". This is how we did it with the Roland 3000, tc 2290, PCM42, and then the dedicated machine came... To have a signal only looped I did not find usefull. I sometimes used a volume pedal for the input of the loop so I could play a note and fade it into the loop so it would come back without attack. This is nice, because you can play a clear, attacky melody and "digest" its fundamental note into a smooth loop. But then again, the more options you have, the more you have to control... >>I've been meaning to try something like this for a long time. I really want >>a looper to have an effects loop in the feedback path so I can have my >>loops change in some way with each pass. >Ugh, they don't allow this? Not even the Echoplex? Ahem, well, ... >>The downside is >>the unintentional effect of passing the loop through A/D / D/A conversions >>repeatedly. > >They could supply the effects in/out as digital s/pdif, which wouldn't >add much to the base cost. You could go right through an effects unit >with digital in/out, and they could sell an add-on A/D D/A box for >people with analogue effects that want to use this technique. ... as you recognized, the feedback is an internal digital thing, and a analog FB loop would be costy, but a digital one - something to think about. The A/D D/A box to it, I do not see would be commercially possible. The loop machine we dream of, ofcourse would contain its own effects and manners to control them in a way it makes sense. I the 'Plex sells decently, this will be possible. Thanks Matthias Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:16:08 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: gremlin destruction Kim recomends: >Personally, I don't have so much trouble with reverse. I'm not trying to >excuse the pops, those can be annoying, but they aren't really that common. >Of course my music often has elements in it that make a wee little pop seem >pretty insignificant! But really, using reverse with guitars is just so >damn fun that I heartily encourage everyone to play around with it and just >try to live with the rather rare pop until the soft upgrade comes out. The >enjoyment is easily worth the occasional pop, in my opinion. Me again personally, I cannot do anything with reverse (maybe for this, I did not give it sufficiant atention) - how different we play... Thats nice! By the way: Today I visited a percussion/woodwhind player (Bira Reis) with a LOOP delay and he showed me a tape he made and I was blown away. I felt that he discovered some new sound, also because he is in the brasilian roots and he never had listened to Fripp and the other old masters. >>so: anticipating the long awaited UPGRADE........that will make this box >>what it should have been all along!!! >> >yes, quite true.... It makes me cry... Matthias Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:35:28 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: eno audio clip Ray and I said: >>This would be nifty for the web page. Does anyone know how to put RealAudio >>stuff on a web site? Better yet, does anyone want to figure it out, do >>whatever it takes to put the eno file in RealAudio format, and send it to >>me for uploading? > >I can digitize it and send it was, say, an AIFF or SDII file. Ok, send it as aiff. Tell me how big it is first...probably best to ftp it if its big. Can you somehow set yourself up as an ftp server? kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:50:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Unidentified subject! >>This would be nifty for the web page. Does anyone know how to put RealAudio >>stuff on a web site? Better yet, does anyone want to figure it out, do >>whatever it takes to put the eno file in RealAudio format, and send it to >>me for uploading? > >I thought Shockwave was the latest sound format? Text would still be the >most immediate... Yes, but the format is proprietary. You need expensive Macromedia software to encode the format.