Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 02:28:17 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: tape loops on the radio I hope Jerry does not mind if I forward his nice story from the broadcast world to the loop world. Maybe you all know who Joe Frank is. I did not and have an idea now and would like to hear his *tape around mic stand loops*: >Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:11:10 -0700 >To: deckusers-l@teleport.com >From: ag506@lafn.org (Jerry Summers) >Subject: TANGENTIAL to "Positive Experiences" ... > >Joe Frank is a radio artist whose various weekly program series ("Work in >Progress," "In the Dark," and "Somewhere Out There") have been distributed >continuously for more than 10 years by National Public Radio, and aired by >NPR affiliates all over the country. > >He explores various facets of the human psyche - dark, twisted, quirky, >etc. In each program, he weaves several seemingly unconnected stories >together, sometimes monologues, sometimes using actors, sometimes using >found sound from the real world. Aside from his distinctive voice, his >sonic signature is use of continuous music loops and drones running under >the stories. > >He makes these loops the old-fashioned way, on 1/4" tape, often 20 or 30 >feet long using mic stands to turn the corner, go down the hall into the >studio, turn around, and come back. (BTW, the source is music from >commercially available CDs, and as I understand it, use is covered by NPR's >blanket agreements with ASCAP and BMI.) > > >Agreed as to precision, finesse, elegance, whatever you name want to give >to the power of DAWs. And dragging regions wins hands down over having >dozens of pieces of 1/4" taped to the walls, cabinetry, sides of tape >machines, etc. So many times for so many years I've mused, "Wouldn't it be >great to just push a button and....." Now I can, BUT.... > ... >Here we run headlong into the issue of rock-solid, totally uncompromised, >reliability; I suspect that the reel-to-reel will remain the medium of >choice for this particular situation for some time. I fully expect that >DAWs will prove to be a giant leap forward for segment production, but for >the forseeable future, when it comes to beating the clock and having >unshakeable faith that the equipment won't fail..... > ... >================================================================ > >Jerry Summers > ag506@lafn.org jsummers@muse.calarts.edu > >I'll defend to the death my God-given right to be totally wrong. > >================================================================ > Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 02:29:23 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: roots >>By the way, I got an idea: I was listening to an old piece of music wich >>is " marche pour la ceremeonie des turcs" from Jean Baptiste Lully (it is >>a late XVIIth century composer who was the "maitre d'ouuvre" of all the >>french music under the reign of Louis XIV). This piece is a long >>orchestrated phrase that repeat itself, and grow in intensity, even though >>the player don't play really louder. That could be somekind of an ancestor >>to repetitive, or minimalistic music that lead to specific looping process >>we use quite daily. What do you al think starting a whole thing about the >>roots of looping? Very interesting, never heard of such! >Repeated phrases, with rising and falling intensity, have been a part of >music for a long, long time I think. Its in music from all over the world, >in all different cultures. If anything, a bit less in European Classical >music, but its certainly present there too. Amazing, isnt it: As if Europe had "escaped" form the "barbarian" repetitive music and then got lost in intelectual ateism until in the 60ies the "stupidity" in the music broke through again and cures the stiffness - a rather radical view, easy to see the oposit if one wants. >I may even hazzard that this sort of repetition is an important part of >making something "musical." I know I often find myself losing interest in >music that keeps going on to something new with out ever repeating >anything, while music that does repeat on various levels keeps me involved. >Seems to happen in experimental/academic music where the composer is trying >to explore some new idea while apparently forgetting some of the old ones. >(oddly enough, I enjoy creating music like that; I should heed my own >advice I think!) What you enjoy to create is never wrong (as long as it does not hurt anyone). When it comes to play for others, that might change a bit, just a bit. For me, there are the two phases: walking (traveling to places you only go once) and resting (come back to the same bed every night), developing and harvesting. Loops help for both, but are more obvious for the resting. Some of the nicest recording of mine happened *after* the loop had faded and I played real solo, but really relaxed and inspired because of the loop that before. And in those phases we often modulating like classical music without ever coming back. This "anti-loop" kind of music is very little explored. It asks for a lot of atention by the listener (not to miss the bus), while the loop kind just enters mind for free. >Technology gives us new instruments that make repetition easier. It also >lets us approach this concept in new ways that were never there before. >This is what the various looping tools we discuss are all about, and what >the attraction is. Very well, Kim! >I think the question still remains from a few weeks ago. How did the >technology driven approach get started? Who were the first ones to make >tape loops? It seems there were quite a few people doing this by the mid to >late sixties, but where did they get it from? I've heard that the first >tape delays were done in radio stations, but I don't know who or when. And >who were the early ones applying it to music? For that matter, did it >really start with tape? Was there anything before that? We have some years left to acumulate and archive that info, I hope ! Matthias Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 02:29:11 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: NAMM mini looper gathering Kims proposual >Yep, I recall. I'm always a bit amazed at just how many people I manage to >remember from those shows. I usually spent those days in some combination >of sensory-overload/hangover/general-trade-show-stupor. I'll probably get >down to good old anaheim this year. I know its a bit early, but is anyone >else planning to do NAMM? Maybe we can plan some kind of mini looper >gathering. > Fun idea. We could create a big banner with a spiral on it and walk through the halls singing loop songs (like OHM) to manifest the movement. No, seriously, apear in such a place, visit stands, talk about needs and ideas with manufacturers and musicians really helps. I never met somebody in flesh after meeting on the net. How is that? I might spend a plain ticket Matthias Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 02:29:29 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: linguistic again This one is not serious but fundamental at the same time, because things start to exist when we give them a name (as the bible starts). >well, well... i think the word we're looking for here is 'echoplicis' - >from '-plex,-plicis'- it's a suffix usually formed from numeric words; >more or less like saying '-fold' as in 'hundred-fold'. >there's also 'plexus-a-um', the past participle of 'plecto, plectere' - to >braid or plait... which one was the intended, kim? Loved your analisis. No intention. Just marketing (getting some old hippies that remember the tape echoes of the 60ies :-> ) I think there is only one root to the word "plec-" with the idea of "fold". Unfortunately, later the plastic came up and -plex was used a lot to give an idea of "flexible" (which comes from "flec-" to a name and for me it ended up sounding plastic all together. --- Kim stated according to Don: >Echoplex/Echoplecis >Vortex/Vortices Consequently: To echoplecter the sound A sound is echoplexo Musica echoplexa I 'plecto my guitar you 'plectis your drum... just for 'plectomaniacs! To me, the root is LOOP and the derivatives sound much handyer: to loop (portugese: loopar, german: loopen) looper (machine) loopist (musician) loopero (manufacturer) loopy clima looped music (port: musica loopada, ger: geloopte Musik) to loop away (let the sound take over) (german: abloopen) to loop over a recording (give it the touch) How would be the place to do it or to sell the machines? In port: loopadeira any more? Matthias Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 02:29:51 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: hyperprism >I don't think it's french, ARboretum's address is in San Francisco. There >are several different versions, a 68000 version that runs as a stand alone >on mac's with Digidesign audio boards, a TDM version is a plug-in for >Digidesign's Pro-Tools system, and a PPC version that runs on Powermacs >with no additional hardware. I've only used the PPC version, and I really >like it a lot, though I would think it works better as a post-recording >processor than as a live instrument. I think it's the coolest piece of >audio-sickening software since TurboSynth, and that is high praise. > >Basically, it offers a fairly standard set of effects (Delays, pitch and >time shifting, reverb, ring modulation, etc) with a very non-standard >interface, a blue window on the computer screen with different parameters >of the x and y axis. For example, in the pitch and time changer, pitch is >on the y axis, and playback speed is on the x axis. By drawing lines in the >window, you set the parameters, and these paths can be saved, though not >edited. in the 68000 and TDM versions, the parameters can also be >controlled by external MIDI controllers, but that is not available on the >PPC version, and I doubt that it will be since the PPC version costs about >1/2 the 68000 price, and 1/3 the TDM price. > >There's a demo at www.arboretum.com, which sold me on the software, and the >PPC version is $279, which is pretty cheap for such a cool tool. And I'm >not affiliated Arboretum in any way, if this sounds too much like a sales >plug. > >BTW, hyperprism was named after an Edgar Varese piece, which should give >you an idea of where the designers are at philosophically. > >BTW2: I'm new to this list, and loving it. I'm a bassist and looper from >way back, and currently I'm using a JamMan and lxp-5 for live looping, and >a PPC/Deck/Audiomedia2 setup for serious mangling. > >later, >dt Thanks for all that expanation and corection. It will not run on my 840AV then (grrr). I am using DECK, too. Are you on that list? Wana sell Audiomedia2? but, back to the essence: Can you TAP delay time on Hyperprism ?? Thanks, Matthias Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 03:23:34 -0800 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: kflint@annihilist.com (Kim Flint) Subject: Re: roots (and dj's) At 10:15 AM 10/5/96, Jon Morris wrote: >> >> I think the question still remains from a few weeks ago. How did the >> technology driven approach get started? Who were the first ones to make >> tape loops? It seems there were quite a few people doing this by the mid to >> late sixties, but where did they get it from? I've heard that the first >> tape delays were done in radio stations, but I don't know who or when. And >> who were the early ones applying it to music? For that matter, did it >> really start with tape? Was there anything before that? > >I beleive that before tape looping, there were some radio engineers who >would scratch records to make them skip on purpose, thus creating loops, >and musique concrete was born. Also, they used the wind-off groove at >the end of a record side to repeat things indefinitely. I'm no expert >regarding this kind of stuff, but I bet that if you search for info on >Musique Concrete, you'll find some names of the first people to compose >with these kinds of materials. > >-Jon Aha! This is a lead. Any Musique Concrete experts hanging about? I thought there may have been people who experimented with records as a musical tool before tape loops, but wasn't sure. Does anybody know more details about that? I'd love to know who these people were and who inspired them. This brings up another branch in the looping family tree that hasn't been touched on at all yet: dj's. Over the past twenty years or so the craft of spinning records has been elevated into a musical art of its own. I've heard some really stunning and creative music coming from guys with a couple of turntables and a box of records. For the longest time I was just completely baffled as to how they did this. I finally had the opportunity to watch up close, and I was even more impressed, if still baffled. I definitely did not come away thinking "Gee, I could do that." Anyway, the dj-musician is really employing loops, using a different technical approach than those of us using delays, real-time loopers, samplers, and our computers. I'm sure some dj's employ these tools as well, I don't know. I know Roland and Akai both make looping products aimed at dj's, generally called phrase samplers. As you might guess, I'm fascinated by this topic. I'd really like to know how dj's approach their music and do their thing. And what the history is and where the influences came from. I think some really interesting cross-pollination could happen as well. So are there any dj's on the list yet? Does anybody know one and want get him/her in here? Maybe I'll venture over to one of the relevent usenet groups and try to get some dj's on the list to provide some different perspectives. Unless someone else wants to beat me over there..... kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@annihilist.com | http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html http://www.annihilist.com/ | Loopers-Delight-request@annihilist.com Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 10:31:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: roots On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Matthias wrote: > >Repeated phrases, with rising and falling intensity, have been a part of > >music for a long, long time I think. Its in music from all over the world, > >in all different cultures. If anything, a bit less in European Classical > >music, but its certainly present there too. I find it kind of hard to imagine music without repetition. In repetition is recognition, and the thrill of discovering a pattern. Of course, if the recognition is too easy, the music is boring, and if it is too difficult, the music is incomprehensible. I really like music with lots of interlocking, repeating patterns where the listener's attention can shift from line to line, and the contrasts between the lines. Like West African music, or looping. > >I may even hazzard that this sort of repetition is an important part of > >making something "musical." I know I often find myself losing interest in > >music that keeps going on to something new with out ever repeating > >anything, while music that does repeat on various levels keeps me involved. > >Seems to happen in experimental/academic music where the composer is trying > >to explore some new idea while apparently forgetting some of the old ones. > >(oddly enough, I enjoy creating music like that; I should heed my own > >advice I think!) Sometimes we make music because we *have* to, not because we *want* to. I've made a lot of music that I personally dislike, but I felt I needed to make. An interesting case study here is the improvisational voice of Bill Frisell. Almost unique among jazz soloists, he uses almost no repetition of themes in his solos. Of course, he also uses looping to build backgrounds to play against. :} Something else I find interesting is musicians who can repeat a line, but use different inflections each time they play it. David Torn is a master of this, as are many others who treat each note as a unique entity, rather than part of a "line", without independent importance (it's just personal bias, but the endless 16th note scales and arpeggios of Al DeMiola, Charlie Parker, and others just bore me). This is why I'm currently experimenting with mixers, to be able to feed a loop back out to a processor, and back in on itself, so the sound evolves as it loops. > For me, there are the two phases: walking (traveling to places you only go > once) and resting (come back to the same bed every night), developing and > harvesting. Loops help for both, but are more obvious for the resting. > Some of the nicest recording of mine happened *after* the loop had faded > and I played real solo, but really relaxed and inspired because of the loop > that before. And in those phases we often modulating like classical music > without ever coming back. This "anti-loop" kind of music is very little > explored. It asks for a lot of atention by the listener (not to miss the > bus), while the loop kind just enters mind for free. This makes me think of the Western classical theory ideals of tension and resolution. In classical-descended music, this is done mostly with harmony. I don't know how many jazz theory books I've read that defined "movement" in terms of tension and resolution. The cool thing about looping (and all the various repetitive, non-harmonic world musics this theory implicitly ignores) is that you have motion WITHOUT tension and resolution. The motion doesn't go away just because you're not playing at the moment. The loop is still moving. And once you've abandoned the idea of tension/resolution, you can abandon it for the "walking", too. You can just play, without setting up clear goals. I was just thinking of the music of Edgar Varese. He often composed for just percussion, or percussion and brass/woodwinds. One of my favorites is a percussion/horn piece that just comes in waves and waves of chaotic sound. It's a composed loop. I'm almost certain he was trying to simulate the effect of a migraine headache. That's just what it sounds like to me. Hurts like hell to listen to. > >Technology gives us new instruments that make repetition easier. It also > >lets us approach this concept in new ways that were never there before. > >This is what the various looping tools we discuss are all about, and what > >the attraction is. > > Very well, Kim! Yes, looping has obviously touched us all on some very deep level, as musicians. We should think about this philosophically, to try to understand our emotional reaction to this method of performance, composition, and improvisation. > >I think the question still remains from a few weeks ago. How did the > >technology driven approach get started? Who were the first ones to make > >tape loops? It seems there were quite a few people doing this by the mid to > >late sixties, but where did they get it from? I've heard that the first > >tape delays were done in radio stations, but I don't know who or when. And > >who were the early ones applying it to music? For that matter, did it > >really start with tape? Was there anything before that? Conlon Nancarrow was composing for player piano back in the 1940s, largely to develop repeating figures at a level of precision human musicians are simply incapable of performing. Edgar Varese used tape loops in his musique concrete performance for the 1951 World's Fair, although that was probably done manually with copying, cutting, and mixing. And there's an Erik Satie piano piece that specifies hours and hours of repetition, enough to make it nearly impossible to play. Hope I haven't muddied the waters even more. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. -Charles Fort dstagner@icarus.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 09:55:38 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Amplifiers I do personnaly use 2 amplifiers (oK, you wanted a stereo one). But still i'l alttle on a budget (it is still not tomorroiw i'd get an Eventide that no one is talking about, but it must be an incredible looping system, with its ability to follow the playing envloppe) but I use two KB300 of peavey. They are quite good. Not easy to break, have comfortable power (150 w) an 15' speaker) I plugged mys guitar synth in as well as my guitar preamp through speaker emulation. It is working well. I had them used for 400 bucks each but I guess they must be at a lower price by your place. Olivier Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:10:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: The beginning.. For this i have clues. I think it did ot ONLY started with tapes. I saw a video about composers in france in the beginning of the sixties, they had a whole laboratory that was to grow into an experimental plublic funded center od research on music and technologie with VERY state of the art technologie (like a using a Cray computer, wich far is from my Mac for the moment). They had an old analog sequencer that weighted 200 Kg I think, and they did loops with.... Vinyls! They had old black records with many looped on it. The record did not play from beginning to end but had each track(drill?) with a loop. Long ones on the beginning of the record, little ones in the end. They stacked up to 8 phono at a time... Hell I don't remember the name of this thinb Boulez set in motion it was like Centre d'etude et de recherche musicale or something... Olivier Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:25:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: roots Dave wondered: "Hope I haven't muddied the waters even more." Of course you did, and all hope so! Things clear as crystal are sterile and don't support any creativity.. Let us get things inclear, muddy, and trouble. It gives richness... Olivier Date: 07 Oct 96 06:05:35 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: vortex / steim hi all, 1. I just came back from a London shopping weekend. Tried to buy a Vortex but wasn't successful - all Vortices were gone, and everybody kept telling me that Lexicon has discontinued making them. 2. bought Eno's diary 'A Year with Swollen Appendices' (looking forward a lot to reading that) as well as David Toop's 'Ocean of Sound' book and CD. Almost finished the book already. A must for anyone interested in 'new music' or, as Toop prefers, 'open music', from Varese to Free Jazz, from Eno to the Minimalists. Very informative, and a great read. I was already 70% finished writing a 'History of Looping' page for our Looping website, but this book gave me a couple of new infos and insights so I'll have to rework parts of the page. 3. Continuing the Buchla / strange Midi controllers thread: Be sure to visit the site of Amsterdam's STEIM center at http://www.dds.nl/~steim/intro(eng).html if you're interested in unusual instruments and controllers. -Michael From: "Louis Collier Hyams" Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:14:17 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Latin, and roots pat, who is brooke and brook? also is s/f summers and fripp? what was the tour about? thanks collier Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:02:40 -0400 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Indian classical music I noticed from the looper index that several folks were interested in Indian Classical music. This is exciting to me -- and I would like to start a thread in this direction, beacuse I feel that this music (ie. the premises behind this music) is very condusive to looping. [I'm sure traditional Indian classicalists will shout "blasphemy" for this statement, since improvisation is such an important part of the music -- but I don't think that looping and improvisation need be mutually exclusive -- I'm sure many of you will agree with me on this, as many of you have stated the desire for continuously altering or varying loops, instead of using pure repetition]. Let me describe briefly what I understand as the basis of (North) Indian classical music: 1. The music is based primarily on rhythmic and melodic content, not harmonic (as in the European tradition). 2. The rhythmic aspect of a piece is based upon a "tal", or rhythmic cycle. This is defined by a pulse tempo and a number, where the number represents the number of pulses in the rhythmic cycle. Most Indian music uses cycles of 24, 16, 12, 10, 8, 7, or 6, but any number (integer > 1) is theoretically OK. The "one" or first beat of the rhythm cycle is called the "sum". The key to musical interaction is for all the musicians involved to hit the sum. Within the rhythm cycle, the musicans may go off separately, with incredible rhythmic complexity and improvisation, but you can be sure that he will end up (along with the other musicians) right back on the sum. 3. The melodic aspect of a piece is based upon a "raga". A raga can be thought of simplistically, as a melodic scale, but it is more than that. Often, there will be a "ascending" and "descending" scale, meaning the performer will play one set of notes when ascending in pitch, and a (slightly) different set of notes, when descending. There is more to a raga than just the notes, though -- you can have two different ragas using the same notes, by having different "tal's", or even by virtue of the way they are performed (ie. the themes used) -- and this seems to be tied in to the "emotional impact" or feel of the raga. 4. Within these rhythmic and melodic constraints, the performer is free to improvise, and to embellish basic themes -- so no two performances are the same!! To me, this is a major distinction between the Indian and European classical traditions. I don't mean to oversimplify the rich complexity of Indian classical music -- there are many other forms, structures, and aspects to the music (I'm sure plenty, of which, I am not aware). But I mainly wanted to present the basic rhythmic nature of the music. So, since the whole concept is based on the rhythm CYCLE, you can see why this may be condusive to looping. By combining multiple loops of various lengths, there will always be a sum (ie. beat "one"), which will occur at the GCM (greatest common multiple) of the individual loop beats. Improvisation would surely be different than in a classical raga, but there is plenty of room for improvisation using current loopers. Each loop can be generated spontaneously, and then multiple loops can be combined in different ways. I'll write more later about using Indian music ideas with loopers/delays. I'm curious what others have to say on this topic... - chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:06:09 -0400 To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Rypdal? I noticed that a couple listed Terje Rypdal as an influence. I haven't heard (him?). Can someone please fill me in? --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:44:54 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: roots >>Repeated phrases, with rising and falling intensity, have been a part of >>music for a long, long time I think. Its in music from all over the world, >>in all different cultures. If anything, a bit less in European Classical >>music, but its certainly present there too. > >Amazing, isnt it: As if Europe had "escaped" form the "barbarian" >repetitive music and then got lost in intelectual ateism until in the 60ies >the "stupidity" in the music broke through again and cures the stiffness - >a rather radical view, easy to see the oposit if one wants. Bach's chorales and fugues are based on variations of a melody, ie. permuting a melody by shitfing pitch, time scale, direction of flow, etc, and then playing the permuted melodies at the same time as the original one, creating endless varieties of entertwining melodic interactions -- not to mention some improvisation thrown in. This isn't pure repetition, but isn't purely linear either. >>I may even hazzard that this sort of repetition is an important part of >>making something "musical." I know I often find myself losing interest in >>music that keeps going on to something new with out ever repeating >>anything, while music that does repeat on various levels keeps me involved. Yes, I think listener involvement is a very important aspect to music. When there is a "pattern" underlying a musical composition, and the listener is aware of that pattern, it brings a new dimension to the music - certainly on the intellectual level -- but probably on the emotional level, as well. Reich's Phase music (violin, piano) is interesting to me intellectually, based purely on the concept (I was excited about this music, upon hearing ABOUT it, before I actually even HEARD it) -- but then upon listening to it, I was also impacted on a more emotional level. When I first experienced a live performance of an (North Indian Classical) raga, I was stunned by the complexity of the piece and the musicianship of the performers. But even more importantly, I was blown away by how the audience was "in tune" to what was going on. For example, when one performer would "go-off" on an incrediblly complex "solo", he would (climactically) hit the sum, (and go back into the basic theme) -- and the audience was ready for it! To me, it was comparable to John McLaughlin stopping in the middle of a raging solo, and the audience knowing, expecting that was going to happen. I didn't see the pattern, so to me it seemed as if there was some sort of "magical" communication going on between the performer and the audience. --> But the audience was merely aware of the underlying pattern of the music. Apparently, Bach never "finished" his more complex fugues, ie. he never carried out the piece to its logical completeness. He left that open for the listener to do. If one was aware of the underlying pattern of the music, he could finish the piece himself. I guess the point I am trying to make with all this is that there is a dimension to a musical performance which involves how a piece is meaningful to the listener. Music can be meaningful in so many ways. To me, looping music (in particular) can be meaningful on an emotional level (perhaps, repetition has something to do with this, like a mantra) and on an intellectual level (perhaps, due to the complexity which results by combining simple, fundamental parts). - chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:58:40 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Eventide? > (it is still not tomorroiw i'd get an Eventide that >no one is talking about, but it must be an incredible looping system, with >its ability to follow the playing envloppe) What do you mean? Some Eventide loop system I do not know of? Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:55:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Indian classical music Here's another analogy between Indian classical music and looping - the drone. Chordal harmonic interest, in the Western sense, does not exist in Indian classical music. Instead, the music develops against a drone. I'm sure you're all familiar with that buzzing sound that we associate with Indian music. I can't remember the name of the instrument offhand, but it is simply a tuned drone, creating a background for the other musicians to work against. It is similar to the sitar, which has a number of resonant drone strings. In my own looping, I rarely use chordal development. I prefer drones and percussive sounds. This might be due to my own exposure to Indian music, or just my own ear, I'm not certain. Several of the most successful looping musicians I know of were also strongly influenced by Indian music - David Torn and Robert Fripp spring immediately to mind. A bed of looping drones and percussion is fertile ground for melodic improvisation. So I think there is not only a rhythmic, but also a structural relationship between looping music and Indian music. Of course, this is all assuming a certain approach to looping - an approach I and many others engage in, but certainly not the only musically valid approach. Most of what I know intellectually about Indian classical music comes from two sources. The first was an evening's conversation with a most excellent gentleman from India, a professor at a Northern Indian university who sang in the classical style (he gave a concert), and studied the folk music of Northern India. I met him after his concert and he invited me to dinner and described the music and his training in great detail. The next day, he gave a presentation on Indian folk music, with many recordings. This music, sadly, is dying due to the introduction of the radio and recorded music. The other source was a book by English free improvisor Derek Bailey, called (appropriately enough) "Musical Improvisation". Bailey devoted two chapters of this rather thin volume to Indian classical music, praising it extensively as an improvisational structure. He spent much time dealing with the basic musical theory, which is more philosophical than "musical" in nature. Because there really isn't a written form for the music, there is debate over even the number of notes in an octave. But I digress, again. :} Anyway, Bailey's book is a terrific read if you can get it, but I'm sure it is long out of print. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. -Charles Fort dstagner@icarus.net Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:58:49 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: roots >Dave wondered: >"Hope I haven't muddied the waters even more." > >Of course you did, and all hope so! Things clear as crystal are sterile >and don't support any creativity.. Let us get things inclear, muddy, and >trouble. It gives richness... > >Olivier Each his own philosophy... Is "Malhomme" your real name or did you select it? :-) IHH we are getting off topic again... Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 19:58:45 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: The beginning.. >For this i have clues. I think it did ot ONLY started with tapes. I saw a >video about composers in france in the beginning of the sixties, they had >a whole laboratory that was to grow into an experimental plublic funded >center od research on music and technologie with VERY state of the art >technologie (like a using a Cray computer, wich far is from my Mac for >the moment). They had an old analog sequencer that weighted 200 Kg I >think, and they did loops with.... Vinyls! They had old black records with >many looped on it. The record did not play from beginning to end but had >each track(drill?) with a loop. Long ones on the beginning of the record, >little ones in the end. They stacked up to 8 phono at a time... >Hell I don't remember the name of this thinb Boulez set in motion it was >like Centre d'etude et de recherche musicale or something... > Yeah, grab some more information! France was always very advanced in electronic music due to institues like IRCAM. They certainly looped a lot of weird sounds there! Matthias Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 15:27:57 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: Indian classical music Dave Stagner wrote: >Here's another analogy between Indian classical music and looping - >the drone. Chordal harmonic interest, in the Western sense, does not >exist in Indian classical music. Instead, the music develops against >a drone. I'm sure you're all familiar with that buzzing sound that we >associate with Indian music. I can't remember the name of the >instrument offhand, but it is simply a tuned drone, creating a >background for the other musicians to work against. It is similar to >the sitar, which has a number of resonant drone strings. Chris chimes in: This instrument is called a Tanpura (sometimes referred to as a Tambora). The melodic performer will tune the tanpura to the notes of the raga, and another person will pluck the strings (no frets) during the performance, creating the drone. It is interesting to note that the tanpura strings are not (necessarily) plucked in rhythm with the performance. I have programmed a pretty good tanpura sound, using the Roland U-220 (starting with the SITAR1 sound on the ETHNIC card, and changing the ADSR parameters). Although tanpuras are used mainly as a tuning reference for the melodic performer, they also add a rich texture to the piece. This reminds me: Often, I will play ambient sounds or environments during a looping performance (eg. rain, crickets, etc -- sometimes even thru a processor). This adds a nice rich background to the music. Does anyone else do this? --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 17:42:24 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: studio seventeen productions Subject: Re: Indian classical music At 02:02 PM 10/7/96 -0400, you wrote: >I noticed from the looper index that several folks were interested in >Indian Classical music. This is exciting to me -- and I would like to >start a thread in this direction, beacuse I feel that this music (ie. the >premises behind this music) is very condusive to looping. > > [I'm sure traditional Indian classicalists will shout "blasphemy" for this >statement, since improvisation is such an important part of the music -- >but I don't think that looping and improvisation need be mutually exclusive >-- I'm sure many of you will agree with me on this, as many of you have >stated the desire for continuously altering or varying loops, instead of >using pure repetition]. > >Let me describe briefly what I understand as the basis of (North) Indian >classical music: > >1. The music is based primarily on rhythmic and melodic content, not >harmonic (as in the European tradition). > >2. The rhythmic aspect of a piece is based upon a "tal", or rhythmic >cycle. This is defined by a pulse tempo and a number, where the number >represents the number of pulses in the rhythmic cycle. Most Indian music >uses cycles of 24, 16, 12, 10, 8, 7, or 6, but any number (integer > 1) >is theoretically OK. The "one" or first beat of the rhythm cycle is called >the "sum". The key to musical interaction is for all the musicians >involved to hit the sum. Within the rhythm cycle, the musicans may go off >separately, with incredible rhythmic complexity and improvisation, but you >can be sure that he will end up (along with the other musicians) right back >on the sum. > >3. The melodic aspect of a piece is based upon a "raga". A raga can be >thought of simplistically, as a melodic scale, but it is more than that. >Often, there will be a "ascending" and "descending" scale, meaning the >performer will play one set of notes when ascending in pitch, and a >(slightly) different set of notes, when descending. There is more to a >raga than just the notes, though -- you can have two different ragas using >the same notes, by having different "tal's", or even by virtue of the way >they are performed (ie. the themes used) -- and this seems to be tied in to >the "emotional impact" or feel of the raga. > >4. Within these rhythmic and melodic constraints, the performer is free to >improvise, and to embellish basic themes -- so no two performances are the >same!! To me, this is a major distinction between the Indian and European >classical traditions. > >I don't mean to oversimplify the rich complexity of Indian classical music >-- there are many other forms, structures, and aspects to the music (I'm >sure plenty, of which, I am not aware). But I mainly wanted to present the >basic rhythmic nature of the music. > >So, since the whole concept is based on the rhythm CYCLE, you can see why >this may be condusive to looping. By combining multiple loops of various >lengths, there will always be a sum (ie. beat "one"), which will occur at >the GCM (greatest common multiple) of the individual loop beats. >Improvisation would surely be different than in a classical raga, but there >is plenty of room for improvisation using current loopers. Each loop can >be generated spontaneously, and then multiple loops can be combined in >different ways. > >I'll write more later about using Indian music ideas with loopers/delays. >I'm curious what others have to say on this topic... > >- chris > >--------------------------------------- >Chris Chovit >cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov >--------------------------------------- > > > Chris- your comments certainly strike a chord with me. I've used short loops of Indian music as backing for energy bow loops on at least two occasions: once, a tabla solo in 17 beats (on my album "Pay Your Respects") and again a piece of sitar on a later recording of mine entitled "Charm Zone". I plan to use snippets of Indian music (looped from my Discman) in a planned upcoming series of performances. (Along with Korean drummers, classical string pieces...whatever strikes my fancy and/or is a good "backing" to build e-bow on.) I was very pleased with the results, although it takes some doing to adjust your melodic style to "fit" the textures and sounds of the Indian music. I love Indian music anyway (having grown up in East Africa which has/had a large Indian population) + of course Mr. Harrison's forays into same I would assume inspired us all.. It does indeed lend itself very well to the looping process, particularly if you just loop a rhythmic idea (as I did with the tabla solo in seventeen beats) and then provide all new melodic content on top. You are indeed correct about another thing-looping Indian music will be viewed as sacrilege by "real" Indian musicians. I have experienced this first hand, a British sitar player who does sessions told me he was "disgusted" because the producers of the session he was on just took an eight second loop out of his taped part... and I can understand, because if you spend most of your life training in such an intense classical discipline, and then have all your technique and skill and experience "snipped" down to a 4/4 time loop... so i can see both sides. this, however, will not stop me from working more with Indian sounds... excellent thread! dave at studio seventeen p.s. >Often, I will play ambient sounds or environments during a looping >performance (eg. rain, crickets, etc -- sometimes even thru a processor). >This adds a nice rich background to the music. Does anyone else do >this? Yes, although I've tended more towards things like gregorian chants or human voice type sounds. I don't have a real good cricket or rain generator!!! dave @ 17 173451681734516817345168173451681734516817345168 * * * * * * i'll be downstairs if you need me. * * i'll still be downstairs if you DON'T need me * * (Mr. Blint, Consequences/Godley & Creme) * * * * visit: http:www.adnc.com/web/ambient/index.html seventeen: the ambient music page 173451681734516817345168173451681734516817345168 Date: 08 Oct 96 05:14:46 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: tape loops on the radio > He makes these loops the old-fashioned way, on 1/4" tape, often 20 or 30 > feet long using mic stands to turn the corner, go down the hall into the > studio, turn around, and come back. This technique has already been used in the early sixties by Terry Riley (before he came up with the 2-machine, tape delay-feedback system which was the forefather of Frippertronics). Terry Riley: > I was working with Anna Halprins Dance Company. I was working with tape > loops, sort of primitive technology. This was in the late 50's early 60's. > I was using tape loops for dancers and dance production. I had very funky > primitive equipment, in fact technology wasn't very good no matter how much > money you had. Everything was mono. Using these machines I would take > tapes and run them into my yard and around a wine bottle back into my room > and I would get a really long loop and then I would cut the tape into all > different sizes and I would just run them out into the yard and I would > record onto one machine just sound on sound. -Michael Date: 08 Oct 96 05:14:54 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: Re: roots (and dj's) >> I'm no expert regarding this kind of stuff, but I bet that if you search >> for info on Musique Concrete, you'll find some names of the first people >> to compose with these kinds of materials. >> >> -Jon > Aha! This is a lead. Any Musique Concrete experts hanging about? > I thought there may have been people who experimented with records as a > musical tool before tape loops, but wasn't sure. Does anybody know more > details about that? I'd love to know who these people were and who > inspired them. > > Kim Yes, records were there before tape. Names: Edgard Varese, Pierre Schaeffer, Pierry Henry, Olivier Messiaen. Schaeffer did the first Musique Concrete piece in 1948, using recordings. Varese did the first Musique Concrete piece using tapes in 1954. -Michael Date: 08 Oct 96 05:14:51 EDT From: Michael Peters <100041.247@CompuServe.COM> To: Subject: NAMM mini looper gathering > I never met somebody in flesh after meeting on the net. How is that? Very different! :-) -Michael Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:10:24 -0400 From: "S. Patrick Hickey" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Latin, and roots > pat, > who is brooke and brook? > also is s/f summers and fripp? what was the tour about? > thanks > collier Sorry. I confuse Michael Brook's last name as Brooke (or is it the other way 'round?:) all the time. S/F == Sylvian/Fripp. Pat ***SPH brzrkr@nielsenmedia.com Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:13:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Eventide? Well I read somewhere that since the H3000, there was an enveloppe follower in the machine. Now I need help from you owner of Vorteces (or whatever). I just mine last week, and since it was shipped from USA to france, I cannot count on warranty as you will see: Using the rotating knob that is suppossed to choose between all 16 kind of effects, I just have half of them (1 gives me 15, 2 gives 16, 3 gives 10, 4 gives 10, 5 gives 5, 6 gives 5, 7 and 8 work, 9 gives 8......) I only get right number of preset using a pedal, but it turns the machine in register mode. So I've lost around 8 programm impossible to dial in any way. Perhaps there a way of making sort of initialization of the whole machine. Any idea, anyone using the thing? Olivier Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:19:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: roots So Ok we loop the loop. People I talked about doing loops on old black record was Schaeffer, the place I talked about was the IRCAM... Thanx everyone Olivier From: "Steven R. Murrell" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Latin, and roots Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:32:35 -0400 >I beleive that before tape looping, there were some radio engineers who >would scratch records to make them skip on purpose, thus creating loops, >and musique concrete was born. Also, they used the wind-off groove at >the end of a record side to repeat things indefinitely. I'm no expert >regarding this kind of stuff, but I bet that if you search for info on >Musique Concrete, you'll find some names of the first people to compose >with these kinds of materials. >-Jon A D.J. in Ann Arbor named "Ed Special" at WCBN was working with loops fifteen to twenty years ago in the radio studio. I recall seeing LLLONNNNGGGG loops of audio tape pass through the tape machine, meander over hooks, pencils, paper clips, and other such objects placed about the studio and pass again thruogh the tape machine. These loops were very long by the standards of those days (minutes). The loops were simultaniously blended with other stuff that he would be playing on the record players and tape decks (usually old, extremely tacky and sometimes scary educational stuff) as well as spatterings of music. Kind of an audio collage. Anyway, I know that he recorded every show and these might be available. Try contacting WCBN Radio in Ann Arbor, Michigan (313) 763-3501 Steve Murrell smurrell@ford.com Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:04:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Pete Koniuto Subject: Re: Indian classical music To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Loopers, On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Dave Stagner wrote: > The other source was a book by English free improvisor Derek Bailey, > called (appropriately enough) "Musical Improvisation". Bailey devoted > two chapters of this rather thin volume to Indian classical music, > praising it extensively as an improvisational structure. He spent > much time dealing with the basic musical theory, which is more > philosophical than "musical" in nature. Because there really isn't a > written form for the music, there is debate over even the number of > notes in an octave. > > But I digress, again. :} Anyway, Bailey's book is a terrific read if > you can get it, but I'm sure it is long out of print. Small correction: The book by Derek Bailey is actually called _Improvisation: its nature and practice in music_, published in 1980, but then a second edition appeared in 1992 from the London publisher, British Library National Sound Archive. But, alas, even the second edition is out of print already. However, i am sure a copy of at least one of these editions is available in your local library. There is another *excellent* book for those interested in the fundamentals of Indian Classical music--the terminology and such. It was written by a woman whose name eludes me for the moment, but i have it at home somewhere, i believe. So i'll post the info tomorrow. Wonderful thread, indeed! Yours, Pete the Tea Boy Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:17:46 -0400 From: cwb@platinum.com (Clark Battle) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Rypdal? Terje is a European (swiss?) guitarist/composer from the ECM label. As an ECM artist his style is "ambient jazz" (meaning "lots of reverb"). He has a talent for bringing about an orchestral sensibility in his compositions. A good place to start is with _Descendre_. His sound is similar to Jan Garbarek's early stuff (Torn played with Jan) but his compositional style is unique. Very beautiful stuff. You can find his work in any good jazz section. Clark Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:50:27 +0100 From: David.Orton@mail.bl.uk (David Orton) Subject: Re: Rypdal? To: loopers-delight@annihilist.com Chris Chovit said: I noticed that a couple listed Terje Rypdal as an influence. I haven't heard (him?). Can someone please fill me in? Terje is a musician from Norway. His main instrument is guitar, although his albums of the last 25+ years credit him with flute, keyboards, and soprano sax. In a way he has taken the sound of Hendrix and applied it to the European strand of jazz which includes Jan Garbarek, with whom he played in the late 60's/early 70's, and helped define what's become known as `The ECM Sound' (although thats only a part of what he does). His output is varied, from almost atonal/angular/shards-of-sound to lush and romantic. My favourite, and why I included him, is `After the Rain', which the review in UK's Melody Maker depicted as `the thinking man's Tubular Bells' - mainly cos TR played all the instruments, and possibly not the greatest recommendations in some eyes/ears but 20 years on I still find much to enjoy from the tracks. I wouldn't recommend everything he's done - as noted, his output is diverse(sp?), but I've also liked his last 3-4 group albums. Hope this helps - his discography, and a more literate analysis is on the ECM pages: http://www.ecmrecords.com/ecm/artists/8.html David david.orton@bl.uk Those Orton Leaves: http://subnet.virtual-pc.com/~or387751/ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:42:28 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Indian classical music On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Pete Koniuto wrote: > > Loopers, > > On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Dave Stagner wrote: > > > The other source was a book by English free improvisor Derek Bailey, > > called (appropriately enough) "Musical Improvisation". Bailey devoted > > two chapters of this rather thin volume to Indian classical music, > > praising it extensively as an improvisational structure. He spent > > much time dealing with the basic musical theory, which is more > > philosophical than "musical" in nature. Because there really isn't a > > written form for the music, there is debate over even the number of > > notes in an octave. > > Small correction: The book by Derek Bailey is actually called > _Improvisation: its nature and practice in music_, published in 1980, but > then a second edition appeared in 1992 from the London publisher, British > Library National Sound Archive. Thanks for the correction. I'm going from memory here. Heck, I only recently rediscovered my copy, buried in a box with a bunch of half-demolished electronics I stripped for parts. I was terrified I had loaned it out to someone and never got it back! > But, alas, even the second edition is out of print already. However, > i am sure a copy of at least one of these editions is available in > your local library. I've NEVER seen it in a library, including a couple of university libraries. Then again, given the typical Ivory Tower conservatory attitude toward improvisation... > There is another *excellent* book for those interested in the fundamentals > of Indian Classical music--the terminology and such. It was written by a > woman whose name eludes me for the moment, but i have it at home somewhere, > i believe. So i'll post the info tomorrow. Please do! All I have are my Ali Akbar Khan records, the Bailey book, and memories of a conversation from years ago. It seems to me Indian music theory might go a long way toward capturing an understanding of looping, where Western theory falls flat. -dave By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. -Charles Fort dstagner@icarus.net From: "Steven R. Murrell" To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Rypdal? Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 12:21:41 -0400 >I noticed that a couple listed Terje Rypdal as an influence. I haven't >heard (him?). Can someone please fill me in? >--------------------------------------- >Chris Chovit >cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov >--------------------------------------- Terje Rypdal is a Norwegian guitarist who plays a combination of styles including jazz, ambient, fusion, etc. which for me is kind of hard to describe. His melodies are soft textured with ocassional course edges. He has a very distinct tone and uses various effects including loops. You really need to listen for yourself. In my oppinion, his best work is the CD "Blue" on ECM records. For more information on Terje and a discography go see "www.ecmrecords.com/ecm/bio/8.html" Steve Murrell smurrell@ford.com Date: Tue, 08 Oct 96 11:51:28 CST From: "Todd Madson" To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com, Todd.Madson@spica.LaserMaster.Com Subject: Re[2]: Rypdal? Let me comment on your comments: > Terje Rypdal is a Norwegian guitarist who plays a combination of = > styles including jazz, ambient, fusion, etc. which for me is kind of = > hard to describe. Right. He dabbles in several styles - specifically, heavy rock-tinged jazz fusion guitar (with distortion - kind of like a moodier Allan Holdsworth), Odd, formless tone poems or vignettes, modern classical music, and sometimes conventional four-on-the-floor rock instrumentals. > His melodies are soft textured with ocassional course edges. He has a very > distinct tone and uses various effects including loops. This guy is the master of the melancholy phrase as well as the master of the volume pedal. He can chop out, too, but only if it suits the piece. His album "Waves" was my introduction and it's fabulous. It's some of the most introspective and dreamy stuff ever, but still powerful. > You really need to listen for yourself. Definetely. Pick any three records and you could be talking completely different artists, i.e. pick up "Blue", "Whenever I Seem to be Far Away" and "Eos" and each is radically different. > In my oppinion, his best work is the CD "Blue" on ECM records. This record is considerably more direct than his earlier work. The period from "whenever I seem to be far away", "what comes after" "odyssey", "after the rain", through "waves", "descendre", "rypdal / vitous / dejohnette", "to be continued", Barre Phillip's "three day moon" album (which has Rypdal on it), "eos" are some of the most wonderful, introspective stuff ever. He took a weird right turn after Eos and did "chaser", which was still wonderful, then did two records that sort of removed the dreamy spatiality and were much more direct. But then, he went off and did "If Mountains Could Sing" which were more like his earlier stuff. Highly recommended. > For more information on = > Terje and a discography go see "www.ecmrecords.com/ecm/bio/8.html" Yep. Todd Madson Terje Rypdal-fan. Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:27:15 -0400 (EDT) To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: ejmd@erols.com (Ed Drake) Subject: Re: Indian classical music Loopers, All this talk of Indian Classical music is something that is close to my heart as I've been studying Tabla(North Indian drums) off and on when time permits for several years. I haven't heard anyone mention that there are 2 traditions of Indian Classical music. One is North Indian which is Hindustani including sitars,tablas,etc,and features improvisation as a main feature of its style(?). The other is an older tradition the Carnatic (South Indian) which is more structured and the compositions are more fixed as far as I know. The Carnatic features the Vina,violin and other instruments. All this I'm writing off the top of my head so I know I've left some instruments and info out. To truly study this music you traditionally find a guru(teacher) and spend years studying your instrument before you go out and play. Usually books are not used to teach but teaching is done one on one with ones' guru. I know books are used more nowadays probably due to the influence of the West. One of the best sources for Indian Music books, instruments,recordings,etc. is the Ali Akbar Khan college of Indian music in San Rafael ,CA . Their phone number is 415-454-0581. They also have a Web page but I don't have the URL handy at the moment ,sorry. They publish one of the most thorough books on North Indian Classical music I've seen called "The Classical Music of North India" by Ali Akbar Khan . It is about $50 but it is over 350 pages. Later , Ed Drake Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:31:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: tape loops on the radio >>Joe Frank is a radio artist whose various weekly program series ("Work in >>Progress," "In the Dark," and "Somewhere Out There") have been distributed >>continuously for more than 10 years by National Public Radio, and aired by >>NPR affiliates all over the country. I've tuned in "In the Dark" a couple times while scanning the dial. It was the most amazing radio show I've ever heard. I thought I'd tuned into another planet. If anyone knows when it airs in the Bay Area, pelase let me know privately. Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:53:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: The beginning.. Olivier Malhomme writes: >For this i have clues. I think it did ot ONLY started with tapes. I saw a >video about composers in france in the beginning of the sixties, they had >a whole laboratory that was to grow into an experimental plublic funded >center od research on music and technologie with VERY state of the art >technologie (like a using a Cray computer, wich far is from my Mac for Not to be critical, but for starters: 1. Musique Concrete started in the 30s, if not the 20s. 2. Crays did not exist in the sixties. p.s., Seymour Cray RIP (he died a couple days ago, complications of an auto crash, 71 years old) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 14:35:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Indian classical music >But I digress, again. :} Anyway, Bailey's book is a terrific read if >you can get it, but I'm sure it is long out of print. It's been recently reprinted (and, I think, updated). Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 15:14:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: roots (and dj's) >Yes, records were there before tape. Names: Edgard Varese, Pierre Schaeffer, >Pierry Henry, Olivier Messiaen. Schaeffer did the first Musique Concrete >piece in 1948, using recordings. Varese did the first Musique Concrete piece >using tapes in 1954. I've heard of pieces from the 30s. There's been plenty of discussion of MC on the nm-list and post-classical lists over the years. I don't know if there are archives. Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 14:48:48 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Joe Cavaleri Subject: Re: PERSONAL PROFILES: A couple of other points Hi Paul I purchased the Vortex a while back and found out quickly that I have very little patience for programming. I use the Vortex presets mostly.. I might tweak them sometimes. Overall the sound quality is very good. I use the Vortex,one of the channels of the Jamman, along with a direct feed from my preamp and more or less process these in parallel. Anyway back to the Vortex. I find that I use it to add color my sound. The unit itself is capable of some truly unique sounds. Also the capability to morph into different sounds can add subtle...or not so subtle sonic contrasts. Plus preset #16 (and other presets) give you the ability to set up ambient loops. Considering that the price has dropped to $150,(Guitar Center), it's worth some consideration. Worse case --- You,ve got a tap-tempo delay line. I would like to hear from other looper's about this box... maybe swap some ideas or programs/programming tips? joe At 01:15 PM 10/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >hey Joe ... how do you like the Vortex ... I've been using the Jamman with >an lxp15 and was wondering of the added dimensions of the Vortex > > > > > Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 16:03:37 -0700 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Kim Flint Subject: Re: PERSONAL PROFILES: A couple of other points We had a huge vortex thread a while back that I guess you guys missed. I'm in the process of putting old list postings up in an archive section of the website, so you can see it all soon. kim At 02:48 PM 10/8/96 -0700, you wrote: > Hi Paul > > I purchased the Vortex a while back and found out quickly that > I have very little patience for programming. I use the Vortex > presets mostly.. I might tweak them sometimes. Overall the sound > quality is very good. I use the Vortex,one of the channels of the > Jamman, along with a direct feed from my preamp and more or less > process these in parallel. Anyway back to the Vortex. I find that > I use it to add color my sound. The unit itself is capable of some > truly unique sounds. Also the capability to morph into different > sounds can add subtle...or not so subtle sonic contrasts. Plus preset > #16 (and other presets) give you the ability to set up ambient loops. > Considering that the price has dropped to $150,(Guitar Center), it's > worth some consideration. Worse case --- You,ve got a tap-tempo delay > line. > > I would like to hear from other looper's about this box... maybe swap > some ideas or programs/programming tips? > > > joe > > > >At 01:15 PM 10/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >>hey Joe ... how do you like the Vortex ... I've been using the Jamman with >>an lxp15 and was wondering of the added dimensions of the Vortex >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________________ Kim Flint 408-752-9284 OEM Engineering kflint@chromatic.com Chromatic Research From: George Henry To: "'Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com'" Subject: RE: Indian classical music Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 22:05:00 -0400 This message was stimulated by Ed Drake's. For anyone desiring an excellent introduction to Carnatic music, I recommend Shankar's albums _Who's to Know?_ and the more recent _Raga Aberi_. [Does anyone need to be told that this musician and Ravi Shankar are not the same person?] This Shankar's first name (his surname, I believe) is Lakshminorayana. On his first western recordings, he was known as "L. Shankar", and lately he has even dropped the "L." (Too bad; I enjoy tongue-twisting non-English words.) Shankar plays a 10-stringed, double-necked electric violin of his own design. He is unbelievably virtuosic. He's played on a lot of western popular-style (pop, rock, jazz, ambient) albums, to good effect. - George Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 03:25:15 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: roots Dave sais brilliantely: >Sometimes we make music because we *have* to, not because we *want* >to. I've made a lot of music that I personally dislike, but I felt I >needed to make. I had a master (Steve Cooney) that listened to my early loops. At that time, when the loop "went wrong" because strange notes crept into the peacefull clima, I used to cut or fade out. But he told me to go on, because these notes I disliked were part of mine and I had to go through it. I did. I went into the most horrible screeming laments and realized that I always came out and usually to create a new theme, nicer than all before. With time, the horror parts became weaker, rarer - it IS therapy. Now they almost stopped. Also the necessity to play daily. Maybe I got too much envolved with the principles so it has become harder for me to just let loop. Now we use our no AC room where I play Kalimba and claypot... I had said: >> For me, there are the two phases: walking (traveling to places you only go >> once) and resting (come back to the same bed every night), developing and >> harvesting. Loops help for both, but are more obvious for the resting. >> Some of the nicest recording of mine happened *after* the loop had faded >> and I played real solo, but really relaxed and inspired because of the loop >> that before. And in those phases we often modulating like classical music >> without ever coming back. This "anti-loop" kind of music is very little >> explored. It asks for a lot of atention by the listener (not to miss the >> bus), while the loop kind just enters mind for free. >This makes me think of the Western classical theory ideals of tension >and resolution. In classical-descended music, this is done mostly >with harmony. I don't know how many jazz theory books I've read that >defined "movement" in terms of tension and resolution. The cool thing >about looping (and all the various repetitive, non-harmonic world >musics this theory implicitly ignores) is that you have motion WITHOUT >tension and resolution. The motion doesn't go away just because >you're not playing at the moment. The loop is still moving. And once >you've abandoned the idea of tension/resolution, you can abandon it >for the "walking", too. You can just play, without setting up clear >goals. Sorry, I only read about two books about music... Really advanced. I will have to explore that. So far I thought, relaxation only happens after tension. Or we do not look for relaxation. For what? Whatever we do, we grow out of it one day. In my perception really, there are not just the two phases of walking and resting, but four different main applications for music: Concentration (waiting, meditation...) Travel (searching, experience, crazyness...) Dance (energizing, partnership, body consciousness...) Praising (finale, overwhelming harmony, admiration, thanking...) >I was just thinking of the music of Edgar Varese. He often composed >for just percussion, or percussion and brass/woodwinds. One of my >favorites is a percussion/horn piece that just comes in waves and >waves of chaotic sound. It's a composed loop. I'm almost certain he >was trying to simulate the effect of a migraine headache. That's just >what it sounds like to me. Hurts like hell to listen to. Like tibetanian religious music? And does it do any good? I have this doubt for a long time: If helps me to listen to my own horror story, does that mean it can help somebody else too? I tend not to listen to "ugly" music exept of my own, sometimes. A matter of taste? >Yes, looping has obviously touched us all on some very deep level, as >musicians. We should think about this philosophically, to try to >understand our emotional reaction to this method of performance, >composition, and improvisation. Hope it really helps. For someone who is new in looping, those experiences, theories or "rules" that may result, do they expand or limit the horizon? Anyone? >Hope I haven't muddied the waters even more. Was there any mud? I love this kind of talk Mattias Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 03:24:59 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: Eventide? >Matthias wrote: >> >> > (it is still not tomorroiw i'd get an Eventide that >> >no one is talking about, but it must be an incredible looping system, with >> >its ability to follow the playing envloppe) >> >> What do you mean? Some Eventide loop system I do not know of? Jonathan Brainin kindly answered: >Are you familiar with the Eventide DSP/GTR4000's? They come with >a bank of 25 delay patches and a bank of eight looping patches. >Mono loops have 10 seconds of delay, stereo loops have five. >There is also a sampling board option for longer loops. The >maximum length for a stereo loop on with this board is 87 secs. >Of course, one can apply other effects such as pitch shift to the >loop. I understand they're working on their next generation of >machines now. They'll probably be able to iron shirts as the >same time! No, I was not aware. As always, there is the question left: Are there loop functions, like Tap, Multiply...? An interface to save the samples? Thanks Matthias Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 03:24:54 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: Rypdal? >I noticed that a couple listed Terje Rypdal as an influence. I haven't >heard (him?). Can someone please fill me in? > He plays a spheric guitar in Norway for a long time, making albums (on ECM?) regularely, but living rather of film music as he said. I met him around '85 in Zurich. He was very modest and shy. I presented him some of my equipment ideas but he said that he was completely satisfied with his few old stomp boxes - and really, the concert was great. Matthias Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:59:05 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: The beginning.. On Tue, 8 Oct 1996, Ray Peck wrote: > Olivier Malhomme writes: > >For this i have clues. I think it did ot ONLY started with tapes. I saw a > >video about composers in france in the beginning of the sixties, they had > >a whole laboratory that was to grow into an experimental plublic funded > >center od research on music and technologie with VERY state of the art > >technologie (like a using a Cray computer, wich far is from my Mac for > > Not to be critical, but for starters: > > 1. Musique Concrete started in the 30s, if not the 20s. > > 2. Crays did not exist in the sixties. > > p.s., Seymour Cray RIP (he died a couple days ago, complications of an > auto crash, 71 years old) > > > oory I did not make myself clear... This place is IRCAM, and they have always used state of the art technologie, like Cray computer a few years ago (not in the 60'). P. Schaeffer did these experiment with vinyl based loops in the 60'. I know it was not the beginning of concrete music (fun that infrench, concrete music is said musique concrete, though the two djectives (i.e french vs english) do not have the same meaning!), but it is certainly not my responsability... Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 09:31:29 -0400 From: KingsleyD@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Indian classical music RE>> The Derek Bailey book Out of print? My local Borders has been stocking it; they have a couple of copies there even as we speak. I own a copy myself - it's well worth checking out. Interesting part is that the focus is *not* on jazz or blues improvisation; there's a chapter on church organ improv, something I recall listening to my grandfather practice as a young whippersnapper... BTW, another book worth reading (this one's hot off the press) is Simon Frith's "Performing Rites", which gives an impressively researched and thought out account of the value system(s) that are brought to bear on "pop" (i.e., non-"high art") music by its practitioners, its audience, the media, and the recording industry. It is dense and thoroughly academic, but Frith raises many issues worth pondering in terms of the relationships between and among: music - musician - audience - business. More analysis, less aphorisms than, say, Robert Fripp's musings. (Relationship to Fred Frith? Dunno...) --Kingsley Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:07:51 -0400 From: KILLINFO@aol.com To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: PERSONAL PROFILES: A couple of other points Joe, I use a Vortex also, and my experience with it is somewhat similar to yours. The one exception being time (not patience) being the chief excuse for not delving more deeply into the unit. Though it seems to be fairly easy, I have more processors, instruments, and software in my rig than many whole bands have. It's hard to dive in and really get to know all of it intimately. I also have a wife, 3 kids, and a demanding job. I too would appreciate any help, short cuts, whatever that this group has to offer. Perhaps when the "archives" are published we can take advantage of all of this accumulated experience. Ted Killian Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:14:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Stagner To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Amplification On 9 Oct 1996, Teed Rockwell wrote: > Paolo, > > I've tried both of your solutions. The built in line out from my amp sounds > better than no amp at all, but not as good as the sound of the amp itself. I > record by miking my big amp, and wish I had a small amp that had the same great > tone. Any suggestions? > Have you tried a Marshall or Kolbe speaker load box? These devices put a big reactive load on the amp, enough to preclude the need for a speaker (so they're big boxes with heat sinks, not some little teeny thing like the Red Box), and they make the power tubes behave they way guitarists expect. You can also use them to just drag the volume down to reasonable levels for your regular speakers. I've heard the Marshall Power Brake and it's quite impressive. There are also a few flea-power amps on the market these days for studio recording. You might want to look into one of those <10 watt amps, so you can drive the power tubes hard without driving the neighbors to violence. :} By "beauty," I mean that which seems complete. Obversely, that the incomplete, or the mutilated, is the ugly. Venus De Milo. To a child she is ugly. -Charles Fort dstagner@icarus.net Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:17:05 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: delay tricks I use a counting method with a guitar (could be any instrument, though) & delay, which may be of interest, so I will try to communicate it here: Set delay to repeat only one time (ie. feedback at minimum), with a delay ~700 - 1000 ms (any longer can be done but it gets tricky). For this discussion I will use a 750 ms delay. (To get the feel for the delay time, I usually start out strumming muted strings, with quick, sharp strums). Break the delay time into an integer number of beats -- lets say 3. So, for this case strum every 250 ms. Now, play notes, instead of strum. Play a 4 note, repeating meoldy (ie. repeats every 1000 ms). Let s say the meoldy is DO RE ME FA. So, if we write the pattern on a time scale we get (you might need to stretch your window size to view this correctly): TIME 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 1500 1750 2000 BEATS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 PLAY DO RE ME FA DO RE ME FA DO DELAY DO RE ME DO RE This creates an interesting harmonizing relationship between the performed notes and the delays. Now, play the notes of the melody on every 2nd beat (ie. half as fast), so you get: TIME 0 250 500 750 1000 1250 1500 1750 2000 BEATS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 PLAY DO RE ME FA DO DELAY DO RE ME This creates an interesting "dynamic" pattern between the performed notes and the delay, like a question/answer type thing. Many of you probably get these rhythms, without counting it out. But counting it out has helped me to get some more complicated rhythms, that I wouldn't have been able to get otherwise. To communicate the pattern, I could use 3 numbers: Number of beats per delay time Number of beats between performed notes Number of notes in (repeated) melody So, for the first example, I would write it as (3, 1, 4). For the second example, I would write it as (3, 2, 4). It is the relationship of the first two numbers that creates the rhythmic quality. The third number will just affect the harmonic relationships, not the rhythmic relationships I have really enjoyed trying some more complex rhythms: (Let X = 1, for starters, ie. just repeat one note, or strum) (4, 5, X); (5, 4, X); (3, 5, X); (5, 3, X); (5, 2, X); (2, 5, X); (6, 5, X); (5, 6, X) ....etc. Some of these are tricky to play. It's easier with a sequencer and a delay that you can "dial in" the exact delay time. I just use a Jam Man though. For the larger first numbers, I use longer delay times. If the first number is 8 and my delay time is 1600 ms, I might strum every 800ms, then every 400 ms, then finally every 200 ms -- instead of trying to break 1600 ms up into 8 parts right off the bat. I hope this wasn't too confusing.....(or too anal)! - chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 13:10:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Re: Amplification Teed Rockwell writes: >Paolo, > >I've tried both of your solutions. The built in line out from my amp sounds >better than no amp at all, but not as good as the sound of the amp itself. I >record by miking my big amp, and wish I had a small amp that had the same great >tone. Any suggestions? Have any folks on this list tried Holdsworth's Harness? Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:51:17 -0400 From: Rob Martino To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: Beginner questions After a couple years of knowing about looping devices such as the JamMan and Echoplex with little interest, in a sudden moment of revelation this week while playing guitar and thinking about my composition style I realized that these sort of devices are perfectly geared towards a lot of the musical things I do. So to start off, I wanted to get some basic ideas about the type of equiment/cable configuration I would want to start with. Playing Champman Stick, I have at least three outputs (bass, melody, triggered synth), yet I understand the JamMan can only process one of it's stereo inputs. So would the easiest thing to do be simply having a small mixer to mix down from three or more to one? Does the Echoplex allow multiple inputs? Since I've hardly begun to get into this looping business, the first thing I was envisioning myself doing was building up a 4 or more layer loop (bass, rhythm, percussive sounds, synth), save that off, solo over it for a while, start and build up another 4 layer loop, save that, and maybe do this a few more times, then be able to switch between the already constructed, layered loops as sections of the song. I assume either the JamMan or Echoplex could do this? Geez, the funny thing is, this is the way I've been writing music for years on a MIDI sequencer (build up layers into sections, then use these section blocks to structure the song), but I didn't think of using a looping device to do all this live until now! Is there anything else I need to consider in terms of configuring inputs/outputs, or looping device features? Thanks, Rob Martino Subject: Re: Beginner questions From: Tom Attix* To: > yet I understand the JamMan can only process >one of it's stereo inputs. Actually, it's stereo in and out. It can't effect both channels with seperate sets of perameters, however. I'm playing my Stick through one and it works fine. I don't have MIDI, I think you're going to need an inline mixer for that no matter which route you decide to go. There are at least a few other Sticky Loopists on this list, maybe they can shed some light on the MIDI side of this. -Tom Attix _______________________________________________ attix@apple.com _______________________________________________ "Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps". - Emo Phillips From: Jon Morris > Subject: a good book To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:42:37 -0500 (CDT) another interesting book dealing heavily with improvisation: "Forces in Motion: Anthony Braxton and the meta-reality of creative music" by Graham Lock. Braxton hasn't done any "looping" as far as I'm aware, but there is a piece on his album "Six Compositions: Quartet" which has a ostinato pattern (basically a loop) that gets passed around from one member of the quartet to another, its track 3, "Composition No. 34." In the book, he talks a bit about what he calls a "pulse track" which is a kind of repeating pattern that usually has some space within it for some improvisation, but has a very steady rhythm. I think the ways in which he manipulates these pulse tracks in his compositions may be of interest to loopers. -Jon Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:45:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ray Peck To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Subject: a good book Jon Morris writes: >another interesting book dealing heavily with improvisation: Another is the new Eddie (Edwin) Prevost book (he's the percussion guy in the seminal non-idiomatic improv group AMM). I haven't started in yet, but I've heard it's great. Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:37:47 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Books Dave cited: >The other source was a book by English free improvisor Derek Bailey, >called (appropriately enough) "Musical Improvisation". ... >Anyway, Bailey's book is a terrific read if >you can get it, but I'm sure it is long out of print. Gee - this is exactly one of the books I read, and really learned to valorize my consequently improvising work. The others are: Michael Hammel "?" Rudolf Steiner "Das Wesen des Musikalischen" Hazrat Inayat Khan (Sufi) "Music" Matthias Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 20:37:42 -0300 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: matthias@bahianet.com.br (Matthias) Subject: Re: roots Chris said: >Apparently, Bach never "finished" his more complex fugues, ie. he never >carried out the piece to its logical completeness. He left that open for >the listener to do. If one was aware of the underlying pattern of the >music, he could finish the piece himself. > >I guess the point I am trying to make with all this is that there is a >dimension to a musical performance which involves how a piece is meaningful >to the listener. Music can be meaningful in so many ways. To me, looping >music (in particular) can be meaningful on an emotional level (perhaps, >repetition has something to do with this, like a mantra) and on an >intellectual level (perhaps, due to the complexity which results by >combining simple, fundamental parts). Do you say that music can be interesting for the not played parts? If we repeat a simple background, the listener starts to hear his own melody, even whistles (improvising) with it. So this would be a simple way to teach music improvisation to any one. Such music then does not carry its own message but a base for the listeners message (to himself?). Matthias Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:46:04 -0400 To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com From: Chris Chovit Subject: Re: Beginner questions Rob Martino wrote: >So to start off, I wanted to get some basic ideas about the type >of equiment/cable configuration I would want to start with. >Playing Champman Stick, I have at least three outputs (bass, melody, >triggered synth), yet I understand the JamMan can only process >one of it's stereo inputs. So would the easiest thing to do be >simply having a small mixer to mix down from three or more to >one? Does the Echoplex allow multiple inputs? I reccommend using a mixer. If you run looping device off the effect SEND, then you can send only the signals you want to loop. Also, if you run the output of the looping device back into a mixer input channel, you can send that signal to other effects, through additional SENDS. The JamMan has stereo ins and outs (ie. it will preserve the stereo signal) but only loops in mono. THe echoplex has only mono in and out >Since I've hardly begun to get into this looping business, >the first thing I was envisioning myself doing was building up a 4 >or more layer loop (bass, rhythm, percussive sounds, synth), save that >off, solo over it for a while, start and build up another 4 layer loop, >save that, and maybe do this a few more times, then be able to >switch between the already constructed, layered loops as sections >of the song. I assume either the JamMan or Echoplex could do this? Yes, you can do this with both. >Geez, the funny thing is, this is the way I've been writing music >for years on a MIDI sequencer (build up layers into sections, then >use these section blocks to structure the song), but I didn't think >of using a looping device to do all this live until now! > >Is there anything else I need to consider in terms of configuring >inputs/outputs, or looping device features? The Echoplex is really a different beast than the JamMan. The JamMan does not have much in the way of editing features. The Echoplex has many, including UNDO, MULTIPLY, INVERT (ie. play the loop in reverse). For me, the UNDO, and MULTIPLY are extremely important features. PLus, the echoplex can be controlled via MIDI, whereas the JamMan is limited in its MIDI implementation: you can only sync it to a MIDI beat clock. Now that memory prices have come down, I feel that you get more for you dollar with the Echoplex: Jam Man w/ 32 sec will cost you ~$450 Echoplex w/ 108 sec will cost you ~$600 - Chris --------------------------------------- Chris Chovit cho@gomez.jpl.nasa.gov --------------------------------------- From: Paolo Valladolid Subject: Re: Amplification To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 16:44:46 -0700 (PDT) > Teed Rockwell writes: > >Paolo, > > > >I've tried both of your solutions. The built in line out from my amp sounds > >better than no amp at all, but not as good as the sound of the amp itself. I > >record by miking my big amp, and wish I had a small amp that had the same great > >tone. Any suggestions? > > > Have any folks on this list tried Holdsworth's Harness? I didn't get Teed's post, so here goes... Teed, did you try running parallel signals? That is, one signal going to the amp and remaining totally dry and the other going to effects, then mixing the dry and wet together at your mixer? Other ideas: 1. Use some kind of speaker out-to-line level converter. The Harness was designed for this and there may be other, similar devices that can do this. In any case, the idea is to use the _speaker_ out, _not_ the line out. An important ingredient of the tube amp sound is the way the power section interacts with the speaker(s). Perhaps someone else can better explain this... but for proper impedance matching, the device fools the amp into thinking it is sending a signal to the speaker so you get the full sound of the power section (which you _dont_ get using the line out). Here of course your little tube amp/head, preamp tubes and power tubes and all, becomes a preamp for driving the rest of your signal chain. 2. Use some kind of signal splitter at the output of the converter to produce at least two signals. Designate one to be your dry signal and send it straight through your mixer with no effects. Use your other signal(s) for the effects. This way, you get your full tone _and_ the wet sounds while still having the option of going to either extreme. 3. Another important component of the tube amp sound is the speaker cabinet. Yes, the best sound is gotten by miking the cabinet, but if portability is an issue, a device like the Red Box or some other speaker simulator in lieu of the massive 4x12 cabinet might warrant consideration. Note that the Harness does not have speaker simulation but many guitar effects boxes do. 4. Alternatively, use the signal splitter at the beginning of the signal chain. Send one signal to the little tube amp/amp head and the others to the signal processors (you may need preamps, if you use passive pickups, to preamplify your signals before they reach the processors, unless the processors themselves have built-in preamps). At the output of the little tube amp/amp head, use a Red Box, a direct box that you plug into the amp's speaker out that has built-in speaker simulation. Hope this helps, Paolo Valladolid ----------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ----------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paolo Valladolid Subject: Re: roots To: Loopers-Delight@annihilist.com Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 19:54:44 -0700 (PDT) For what it's worth, this list has really turned me on to the idea of making lots of loops, saving them, and later assembling them into compositions. Paolo Valladolid ----------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ----------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado@waynesworld.ucsd.edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| -----------------------------------------------------------------